Maybe the worst call in MLB Postseason History

[bsking]

You all know of which I speak.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/05/infield-fly-rule-braves-cardinals-wild-card_n_1944240.html

Here is the official ruling for an infield fly:

An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted
bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or
first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any
outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for
the purpose of this rule.
When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall
immediately declare "Infield Fly" for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the
baselines, the umpire shall declare "Infield Fly, if Fair."
The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or
retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit
becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.
If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces
foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls
untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third
base, it is an Infield Fly.
Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly) Comment: On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the
ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder—not by some arbitrary limitation such as the
grass, or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an
outfielder, if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The
infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire's judgment must govern, and the
decision should be made immediately.
When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly
rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule
6.05(l). The infield fly rule takes precedence.
IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched
the ground or some object other than a fielder.
IN JEOPARDY is a term indicating that the ball is in play and an offensive player
may be put out.
An INNING is that portion of a game within which the teams alternate on offense
and defense and in which there are three putouts for each team. Each team's time at bat is
a half-inning.

As you can see in the video, the umpire calls the infield fly after the ball's trajectory is about 95% complete.  I don't see any way this can be call immediate.

The most grievous part of the play is the fact that the umpire did not call the IF until AFTER the SS gave up on the ball.  I'm not one for conspiracies but it sure looked like some funny business may have been going on.

I'll go ahead and list the first few arguments so as to limit some unnecessary posts:

1) The fact that the Braves kicked the ball around all night has ZERO factor in the argument.

2) The time out call with David Ross in the 2nd inning looked somewhat debatable, but wasn't.  Listen to the on-the-field audio, Ross clearly asks for time early and it was given.  It was close, but that happens in almost every big league game.  The fact that it was a K then a homer was sheer coincidence.

[RazorWorld]

The reaction from the Braves fans was like watching a soccer match in Cuba. They may want to start selling everything in paper cups. When fans act like that how do you teach your kids good sportsmanship. I'm watching the game with an 11 year old who wants to know if the umpires will change their mind because they are afraid of the crowd. Then during the break there is a viagra commercial and he wants to know what that is. Baseball is no longer safe for children, good god.

[bsking]

The reaction from the Braves fans was like watching a soccer match in Cuba. They may want to start selling everything in paper cups. When fans act like that how do you teach your kids good sportsmanship. I'm watching the game with an 11 year old who wants to know if the umpires will change their mind because they are afraid of the crowd. Then during the break there is a viagra commercial and he wants to know what that is. Baseball is no longer safe for children, good god.

Your kid was right.  It's obvious when THAT many people act out of character, something is wrong.  BAD wrong.

[Dr. Starcs]

How do you teach your kid sportsmanship when a celebrated cheater is allowed to come back and coach your team?

[grayhawg]

Couldn't have happened to a better team. Atlanta Braves=Auburn Tigers

[ucahogfan]

Couldn't have happened to a better team. Atlanta Braves=Auburn Tigers

Really?  I could see the Yankees=Auburn since they both try to be the best team money can buy, but the Braves aren't cheating scumbags or have them on staff like another organization in the NL that played last night.

[pigture perfect]

As for the thread title - Not even almost

As for the author - Sore loser

[grayhawg]

Really?  I could see the Yankees=Auburn since they both try to be the best team money can buy, but the Braves aren't cheating scumbags or have them on staff like another organization in the NL that played last night.

Whatever.

http://deadspin.com/5842873/if-the-90s-braves-were-doctoring-the-ball-more-power-to-them

[TuckFexas]

You can't base the worst call in MLB history on interpretation of a rule. Kozma was in the area and had almost stopped (virtually "camped" under it and thought Holliday called him off). It was shallow enough that had it not been called and kozma let it drop on purpose he could've got the force at 3rd or 2nd. In hindsight, it could be argued either way but it's far from the worst call ever.

[bsking]

You can't base the worst call in MLB history on interpretation of a rule. Kozma was in the area and had almost stopped (virtually "camped" under it and thought Holliday called him off). It was shallow enough that had it not been called and kozma let it drop on purpose he could've got the force at 3rd or 2nd. In hindsight, it could be argued either way but it's far from the worst call ever.

So a mental error by a shortstop should be wiped out?  That was on the crowd.  How can you say that?

And okay, what call is worse than this?  Please.

And I'm sure you'll all go straight to google and find some 1904 call that you all remember off the top of your head but good luck.  Give it a shot.  I stand by what I said.

And it's funny that 95% of non-Cardinals fans, including analysts, MLB players, MLB coaches, and front office people agree that it was a completely horrible unforgivable call.

But keep on keeping on Cards fans.

[bsking]

Whatever.

http://deadspin.com/5842873/if-the-90s-braves-were-doctoring-the-ball-more-power-to-them

lol.

[TuckFexas]

So a mental error by a shortstop should be wiped out?  That was on the crowd.  How can you say that?

And okay, what call is worse than this?  Please.

And I'm sure you'll all go straight to google and find some 1904 call that you all remember off the top of your head but good luck.  Give it a shot.  I stand by what I said.

And it's funny that 95% of non-Cardinals fans, including analysts, MLB players, MLB coaches, and front office people agree that it was a completely horrible unforgivable call.

But keep on keeping on Cards fans.

Haven't gone to google, but off the top of my head I'd say the call by Joyce to rob what's his name from Detroit of the perfect game was worse. I'm sure if I googled worst blown calls ever, there would be a # of them that were way worse.

64% of statistics are made up on the spot.

And I will, while watching my Cards continue playing in October. If you want to be mad at the loss, blame your outstanding defense for picking the worst possible time to have a 3 error game.

[bsking]

That Joyce call was NOT posteseason.  And it had ZERO effect on who won the game.

[TuckFexas]

That Joyce call was NOT posteseason.  And it had ZERO effect on who won the game.

I'm well aware. It was worse than judging an interpretation of a rule.

[bsking]

I'm well aware. It was worse than judging an interpretation of a rule.

Read the title hoss.  Your arguing a point I'm not making.

And no it's not interpretation.  Unless you would interpret IMMEDIATE to mean AT THE LAST POSSIBLE INSTANT.

[TuckFexas]

Read the title hoss.  Your arguing a point I'm not making.

And no it's not interpretation.  Unless you would interpret IMMEDIATE to mean AT THE LAST POSSIBLE INSTANT.

As a Braves fan, I think you're just overreacting a bit regarding how bad the call was when you consider how much history this game has. It's not even close to being the worst call in MLB history.

[bsking]

As a Braves fan, I think you're just overreacting a bit regarding how bad the call was when you consider how much history this game has. It's not even close to being the worst call in MLB history.

Again I ask you to give me a worse call in MLB postseason history.  I can tell you, there hasn't been one in the last 20 years.

This will NEVER be forgotten.  That's how bad it is.  If the Cards win the WS this year it will ALWAYS be asterisked by non-Cardinal fans.

[TuckFexas]

Is it that easy to assume the braves would have tied it up or taken the lead had it not been called? If you put an asterisk next to the cards of they happen to win the WS this year you're just an azzhole.

[TuckFexas]

BTW, I'm on my phone and I'm not going to go thru the hassle of a Google search just so you can argue that I'm wrong. It's obvious you'renot going to change your mind.

[pigture perfect]

Again I ask you to give me a worse call in MLB postseason history.  I can tell you, there hasn't been one in the last 20 years.

This will NEVER be forgotten.  That's how bad it is.  If the Cards win the WS this year it will ALWAYS be asterisked by non-Cardinal fans.

What about the fan interferences that were not called in New York and in Chicago. Those were much worse.

[TuckFexas]

What about the fan interferences that were not called in New York and in Chicago. Those were much worse.

The braves weren't involved. Try again.

[bsking]

What about the fan interferences that were not called in New York and in Chicago. Those were much worse.

Really?

*

[pigture perfect]

Really?

*

Yeah, really. Those are not judgement calls. Those should have been overturned. The one in New York actually did effect the outcome of the game.

[bsking]

Yeah, really. Those are not judgement calls. Those should have been overturned. The one in New York actually did effect the outcome of the game.

Would you say that the infield fly was called immediately?

[pigture perfect]

It was called while the ball was in the air and the SS standing underneath it. So I guess it was soon enough. For it to be the worst call ever, you must be able to prove that it for real cost you the game. Chipper said it didn't. Joe Torre said it didn't. All of the Baseball Tonight crew said it didn't. Seems the only ones crying are Brave's fans.

[bsking]

It was called while the ball was in the air and the SS standing underneath it.

Are you watching the same play as everyone else?

For it to be the worst call ever, you must be able to prove that it for real cost you the game.

Prove it didn't.

Chipper said it didn't. Joe Torre said it didn't.

Like I said, he's a Brave.  He is classy.  And Joe Torre is head of the rule committee, what did you expect?  Him to throw his umpires under the bus?

Seems the only ones crying are Brave's fans.

I have seen DOZENS of tweets from MLB players from different teams saying the call was horrible and shameful.  So, no.  Wrong again.

*

[bsking]

What you are saying is that blatant bad or corrupt calls do not matter if you don't play a crisp game.

For all any of you know if that had beed correctly called Boggs may not have been brought in and the next pitch could have been a Grand Slam.

I am not saying the Braves would have won if the correct call had been made.  I am saying that they did not get a fair opportunity at it.  Not only were they robbed of a huge out but it stifled a rally that could have easily blown up into a big inning.

[bsking]

And the fact that it was a judgement call is irrelevant.  Would you defend an umpire that called a pitch that was 15 feet over the batters head a strike because it was a judgement call?

[TuckFexas]

The biggest issue with your thread at this point is that you're wanting people to argue your opinion. I could start a thread in the tavern and say that brunettes are the hottest and ask for proof to show I'm wrong. All the evidence in the world could be presented but if I prefer brunettes you're not going to change my mind. So if you're just looking for people to agree with you, you're in the wrong spot.

[bsking]

The biggest issue with your thread at this point is that you're wanting people to argue your opinion. I could start a thread in the tavern and say that brunettes are the hottest and ask for proof to show I'm wrong. All the evidence in the world could be presented but if I prefer brunettes you're not going to change my mind. So if you're just looking for people to agree with you, you're in the wrong spot.

On what part?  If you are saying that my assertion that the call wasn't wrong, I'll stop you right there.  If it's whether it's the worst call in postseason history, yeah that's up for debate, isn't that kind of the point of Hogville?  Did you notice in the title the word MAYBE?

The only reason I'm in the wrong spot is because Arkansas is full of Cards fans.  90% of everyone I've talked to yesterday and today (and that's a lot of people) that aren't affiliated with either team have said that it is one of the worst calls they can think of off the top of their head.

[RazorWorld]

Would you say that the infield fly was called immediately?

Yes, as soon as it was obvious he would catch the ball the ump called the IFR.
It was not a bad call, it was the proper call.

[Hogtropolis™]

Let me first say this before I get to anything else. The call was bad. I'm not arguing with that and I don't think that anyone on here is trying to argue that the call wasn't bad, because it was. I think what most on here are trying to argue with you is that it wasn't nearly as bad as you are making it out to be.

I personally think he shouldn't have made the call, but I can also understand why he made the call. As for the immediately in the call, he didn't call it immediately off the the bat because no one was "camped" under it immediately. As soon as he saw Kozma "camped" under it, he called it immediately. That's my interpretation of immediately. Immediately after someone is "camped" under it.

And the reason I don't think it was as bad as you are making it out to be is because theoretically, Kozma could have let it drop in front of him and like Tuck said, thrown out the runner at 3rd and possibly (not probable though) a double play of 3rd to 2nd.

The reaction from the Braves fans was like watching a soccer match in Cuba. They may want to start selling everything in paper cups. When fans act like that how do you teach your kids good sportsmanship. I'm watching the game with an 11 year old who wants to know if the umpires will change their mind because they are afraid of the crowd. Then during the break there is a viagra commercial and he wants to know what that is. Baseball is no longer safe for children, good god.

Your kid was right.  It's obvious when THAT many people act out of character, something is wrong.  BAD wrong.

The reaction of the Braves fans was horrible. No matter how important the game or how bad the call, fans should never act like that. It's just inexcuseable.

So a mental error by a shortstop should be wiped out?  That was on the crowd.  How can you say that?

And okay, what call is worse than this?  Please.

That's why on an infield fly the runners advance at their own risk. To account for mental errors on an infield fly.

To answer the main question of the thread, the call that comes to my mind as a Cardinals fan that is clearly worse than this one is the '85 World Series when Dekinger blew the call at first base which cost the Cards another World Series title. That was game 6 in the WORLD SERIES, not a play in game, which in and of itself makes it more crucial in my mind. That's my example that you asked for. There may be others, but like I said, that's the one that comes to my mind.

As a Braves fan, I think you're just overreacting a bit regarding how bad the call was when you consider how much history this game has. It's not even close to being the worst call in MLB history.

See the reply right above this. This is fresh on everyone's minds right now of course, which is why I think you are thinking it is the worst ever in the postseason. Again, I think it's bad, but not the worst ever. It's just very fresh on everyone's mind.

Prove it didn't.

We can't prove one way or the other what would have happened. That's what's frustrating about any close call. You can't prove that the Braves would have gone on to win had that been called differently and we can prove the Cards would have gone on to win had it been called differently.

[RazorWorld]

Let me first say this before I get to anything else. The call was bad. I'm not arguing with that and I don't think that anyone on here is trying to argue that the call wasn't bad, because it was. I think what most on here are trying to argue with you is that it wasn't nearly as bad as you are making it out to be.

I personally think he shouldn't have made the call, but I can also understand why he made the call. As for the immediately in the call, he didn't call it immediately off the the bat because no one was "camped" under it immediately. As soon as he saw Kozma "camped" under it, he called it immediately. That's my interpretation of immediately. Immediately after someone is "camped" under it.

And the reason I don't think it was as bad as you are making it out to be is because theoretically, Kozma could have let it drop in front of him and like Tuck said, thrown out the runner at 3rd and possibly (not probable though) a double play of 3rd to 2nd.

The reaction of the Braves fans was horrible. No matter how important the game or how bad the call, fans should never act like that. It's just inexcuseable.
That's why on an infield fly the runners advance at their own risk. To account for mental errors on an infield fly.

To answer the main question of the thread, the call that comes to my mind as a Cardinals fan that is clearly worse than this one is the '85 World Series when Dekinger blew the call at first base which cost the Cards another World Series title. That was game 6 in the WORLD SERIES, not a play in game, which in and of itself makes it more crucial in my mind. That's my example that you asked for. There may be others, but like I said, that's the one that comes to my mind.
See the reply right above this. This is fresh on everyone's minds right now of course, which is why I think you are thinking it is the worst ever in the postseason. Again, I think it's bad, but not the worst ever. It's just very fresh on everyone's mind.
We can't prove one way or the other what would have happened. That's what's frustrating about any close call. You can't prove that the Braves would have gone on to win had that been called differently and we can prove the Cards would have gone on to win had it been called differently.

I agree with everything except this was not a bad call. I may be only one but it was the proper call.

[bsking]

I hear you Hogtrop and you make some good points, but as you can see by the next poster, people are saying it was a proper call.  You are a needle in a haystack.

And of course I'm putting a higher regard in this for most but can you blame me?  I watched 163 Braves games this year.  Literally.  Add 40 more if you want to count organizational.

I am absolutely cool with your argument on everything.  What has just got me on my tirade is people saying it wasn't a bad call.  Just unbelievably naive.

[RazorWorld]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2012/10/05/infield-fly-rule-umpire-braves-cardinals/1616389/

[clutch]

I hear you Hogtrop and you make some good points, but as you can see by the next poster, people are saying it was a proper call.  You are a needle in a haystack.

And of course I'm putting a higher regard in this for most but can you blame me?  I watched 163 Braves games this year.  Literally.  Add 40 more if you want to count organizational.

I am absolutely cool with your argument on everything.  What has just got me on my tirade is people saying it wasn't a bad call.  Just unbelievably naive.

I'll agree that it was a bad call. I will not agree that it cost them the game though. It COULD have, but there is something that happens every single game that COULD have changed the outcome. Kozma COULD have thrown out one of the runners, which would have pretty much keep the results of the call the same. The Braves still needed some hits with RISP, which is something they had struggled with.

[ImHogginIt]

Last nights call was bad but this one cost the Cards the title in 1985

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062921

[bsking]

I'll agree that it was a bad call. I will not agree that it cost them the game though. It COULD have, but there is something that happens every single game that COULD have changed the outcome. Kozma COULD have thrown out one of the runners, which would have pretty much keep the results of the call the same. The Braves still needed some hits with RISP, which is something they had struggled with.

Agreed.  The Braves could have overcome or they could have not.  I would NEVER say the Braves lost because of that call.  But we will never know what would have happened had it been called correctly.  And the Braves very well may have won.  That's what irks me.

[TuckFexas]

On what part?  If you are saying that my assertion that the call wasn't wrong, I'll stop you right there.  If it's whether it's the worst call in postseason history, yeah that's up for debate, isn't that kind of the point of Hogville?  Did you notice in the title the word MAYBE?

The only reason I'm in the wrong spot is because Arkansas is full of Cards fans.  90% of everyone I've talked to yesterday and today (and that's a lot of people) that aren't affiliated with either team have said that it is one of the worst calls they can think of off the top of their head.

I'm not saying the call wasn't wrong, I'm not saying it wasn't right either. If I were an objective observer, I could see both sides. For the Braves, I would argue it was called late and I'd be pissed. For the Cardinals, I would argue that based on the way the rule is written, it was called correctly.

To address whether or not I noticed "MAYBE," in the thread title, I must confess. Yes, I did notice it...but I also have a history on this board, as do you. I know you're a Braves fan, and I considered the source of the OP and know that YOU feel as though it ranks up there with one of the worst ever. To which, I would disagree for reasons stated above. The call was not so egregious as to warrant consideration for worst ever.

[bsking]

I hear ya.

I'm tired of arguing this.  What it boils down to is that for reasons like this and for dozens of others, baseball isn't meant to be decided by one game.

Good luck to the Cards from here on.

[Hogtropolis™]

I agree. That WC series should be a 3 game set. The the DS 5 and CS and WS 7 game sets.

[ImHogginIt]

I agree. That WC series should be a 3 game set. The the DS 5 and CS and WS 7 game sets.

And reduce the regular season back to 154 games like it used to be years ago

[Hogtropolis™]

And reduce the regular season back to 154 games like it used to be years ago

I would be fine with that as well.

[pigture perfect]

I'm not saying the call wasn't wrong, I'm not saying it wasn't right either. If I were an objective observer, I could see both sides. For the Braves, I would argue it was called late and I'd be pissed. For the Cardinals, I would argue that based on the way the rule is written, it was called correctly.

To address whether or not I noticed "MAYBE," in the thread title, I must confess. Yes, I did notice it...but I also have a history on this board, as do you. I know you're a Braves fan, and I considered the source of the OP and know that YOU feel as though it ranks up there with one of the worst ever. To which, I would disagree for reasons stated above. The call was not so egregious as to warrant consideration for worst ever.

This^^^

[ucahogfan]

Cards fans,

Please let me know how you would feel if that same infield fly had been called against the Cards?  This specific forum would be almost unreadable from all of the hate that would have been spewed.  You can't rationally argue that the ump made the right call when no other infield fly call on the season had been within 47 feet of its distance from home plate.  I can see where you would say Kozma was camped underneath it, but that wasn't the spirit of the rule ala the Pinetar Incident.  And don't come in here attacking me saying that I'm saying the terrible call cost the Braves the game because I'm not.  You can look at my post history and see what I think.

[Hogtropolis™]

Cards fans,

Please let me know how you would feel if that same infield fly had been called against the Cards?  This specific forum would be almost unreadable from all of the hate that would have been spewed.  You can't rationally argue that the ump made the right call when no other infield fly call on the season had been within 47 feet of its distance from home plate.  I can see where you would say Kozma was camped underneath it, but that wasn't the spirit of the rule ala the Pinetar Incident.  And don't come in here attacking me saying that I'm saying the terrible call cost the Braves the game because I'm not.  You can look at my post history and see what I think.

That's why I don't agree with it. It was too deep. I can see why he called it, but I don't agree with it. Still not the worst ever in postseason play though.

[Ray Piggers]

http://www.nesn.com/2012/10/harold-reynolds-thinks-umpire-made-correct-call-in-controversial-cardinals-braves-infield-fly-ruling.html

[Ray Piggers]

There is precedent. Here you go. This HAS happened before.

[Ray Piggers]

And yes, I'd be mad, but it's not like the umpires were out to get you. There were A LOT of questionable calls.. On both sides. Cardinal fans could argue the umps gave you two of your three runs.. Was the correct call made? Yes. Was it too late.. Yes. Same goes with the IF Fly call.

[Boarme]

It was called while the ball was in the air and the SS standing underneath it. So I guess it was soon enough. For it to be the worst call ever, you must be able to prove that it for real cost you the game. Chipper said it didn't. Joe Torre said it didn't. All of the Baseball Tonight crew said it didn't. Seems the only ones crying are Brave's fans.

Well I am crying but that is mainly because I had 4 tickets for the game that was supposed to played today(Nationals) if the Braves had won.  I would have had my boys with me so I am not sure how I could have explained all the debris on the field thrown by the fans.