How do we recruit better and build a defense?

[hog911]

If the recruiting issue is solved, there is no vacancy anyway, except every 15 years, so it doesn't matter if the job is desirable or not.

Very true. It's less about the x's and o's and more about the jimmys and joes! I truly believe the Razorbacks can have a consist top 15 recruiting class. It's something I will discuss more in the future.

[kaki]

Randy Shannon was just named interim head coach at Florida...

Before you hang your hat on this, just think that it was almost certain that one of the coordinators would be interim coach and the offense has been pitiful, so naming the offensive coordinator was nearly inconceivable.  Very often you name as interim, someone who will be outside the replacement discussion.  If they hire Shannon, then you might have something, but I sure don't expect that, for many reasons.

[Letsroll1200]

It's about creating turnovers. Turnovers can change the game for the Razorbacks. You do that by recruiting speed and getting you some football players. When I look at our defensive line, we are big and slow. The only guy I see with a burst is Sosa Agim. You don't have to have 5 star talent to get you some guys that can run and hit. I hope the next coach can recruit and develop talent. You can still be a good defense without 5 star talent. Just look at what TCU is doing. We use to recruit and develop talent under Houston Nutt.

Sam O was 5'10 205 out of high school
Jamal Anderson was 6'6 205 basketball player out of high school
Jerico Nelson was a 5'10 186 out of high school.

I can go on and on with names of guys under coach Houston Nutt.

[razorbackfaninar]

Problem is, of the 20-24 teams that typically out recruit the Hogs, 10 of them are in our conference. When the teams you have to play every year out recruit you every year, they are going to win a lot of the time against you.


How many teams in the Big12 typically out recruit TCU and Oki St? Without looking at the numbers I would guess OU and Tx.

OK state has averaged 5th in the Big 12 (5.25 average class) since 2010.  So just above average in the conference.

TCU has averaged right around middle of the pack as well, 5.5 average in conference recruiting classes. And TCU and OK state are beating teams that have consistently out recruited them outside of their conference as well, TCU is any way, not sure about OK state

[Cinco de Hogo]

Not going to have top 15 offense all the time because they are not going to get the athletes necessary to do so. I know guys like Eastex want to act like the 2008 recruiting class was not really that special, but when a high school in a town of fewer than 5000 people produces 3 NFL draft picks at wr/te, a private school in central Ar produces another nfl draft pick at WR, and Greenwood produces a nfl draft pick at QB, that is a special and far above average in state class. They were a perfect fit at the perfect time for BP. Sure he showcased their talent, but he did not create their talent. You can not teach they things those guys were born with. You can refine it, but you can't teach it. HDN hit the jackpot twice with in state talent that fit what he liked to do.

If anyone thinks that anyone is going to come here and routinely recruit enough talent to have a top 15 offense, without above average instate classes, I would like to know how they think this is going to happen. This line of thought that because so many HS teams are running spread type offense meaning that those type players are easier to find may be true, but is it easier to find SEC LEVEL players? Also, with more teams running those type of offense, they still have to be convinced to come here over other choices.

Let me explain something to you, CBB did not recruit the same talent from the Arkansas ranks as CBP would have.  Nor did CBB coach up the players from the Arkansas ranks that CBP would have.  It's apples and oranges, you really can't compare with any certainty.

[hogsanity]

Let me explain something to you, CBB did not recruit the same talent from the Arkansas ranks as CBP would have.  Nor did CBB coach up the players from the Arkansas ranks that CBP would have.  It's apples and oranges, you really can't compare with any certainty.

How many NFL draft picks have come from Arkansas high schools since the 08/09 classes?

I can't think of more than a couple, Hunter Henry being one.

The university of AR only has about 60 draft picks in the last 22 year, and not all were in state kids. I know some in state kids got drafted playing for a school other than the UofA.

I'll agree, BB has not recruited the same talent, because the same talent has not been there.

[The_Iceman]

We need to find more Jerico Nelsons.

[The_Iceman]

I'll agree, BB has not recruited the same talent, because the same talent has not been there.

BINGO!

NOT defending Bielema, but he hasn't had the in state stars Nutt and Petrino had.

[Wildhog]

BINGO!

NOT defending Bielema, but he hasn't had the in state stars Nutt and Petrino had.

That '08 class wouldn't be viewed the way it is today if Bielema had coached them.

[buldozer]

Hire a new coach and start over. Focus on our neighbors with major talent such as TX in recruiting. CBB ignored TX until the last couple years.... you are seeing the results on the field. Fire CBB at the end of this season and start over with a clean slate of coaches.

[007 License To Squeal]

First year u have to get rid of fans that hate the fan base.... 

Anyone that doesn't know, Luke told us he hates the Arkansas fan base.   

Agree!!

[rzrbk4life]

That '08 class wouldn't be viewed the way it is today if Bielema had coached them.

This will fall on deaf ears

[elksnort]

There is a saying "it doesn't matter how you start it's how you finish".  Another saying is "there is more than one way to skin a cat". 

Recruiting is always based on the strengths of the current staff,  who can truly say that there is a script to follow. 

First off a staff needs to know what they have and what they need and that is totally connected to the schemes they plan to employ.   Are they going to adjust to the strengths of the players they have or are they going strictly after players that fit their scheme.  Most coaches want to employ their scheme asap, some are patient some are not. 

In Arkansas case you need to understand the strengths that exist in this state and how you can use those strengths to build your team because in the end about a third of your team is coming from within our borders.  This is why it's imperative that we have a coach that believes in and coaches a high powered offense.   Historically Arkansas has produced a lot more skill Players than SEC level defensive players.  A great offensive coach can absolutely build a great offense at Arkansas.  Nuff said about offense.

Now to our biggest problem, how to build a mid-tier or better SEC defense.   Well recruiting is the only way to do it and we haven't recruited that well in a while dispite a number of DC's.  This is one time where it's not all about the coach, it's recruiting at a national level we simply haven't achieved yet.  However it's also about knowing what you are going to have to work with, or in other words dance with the one you brung. 

Seeing our history if I were going to try something different this "might" be what I would do.  I would have my coaches identity the top five athletes in the state of Arkansas that could help us on defense regardless of the position they played in high school that we would not normally offer a scholarship too.  I would put full court on them to give up their dream of being a future NFL qb(for example) and come be the best defensive player you could make them in five years.  Many of these players have played defense at some point but ended up an offensive star because they were the simply the best player on their relative small school team.

Maybe this sounds HDN like but then I think our defenses were better then.  Just a thought.

Very good reasonable post. Yes, Jammal (sp) Anderson comes to mind, then later George Wilson in the NFL.

[razorbackfaninar]

Hire a new coach and start over. Focus on our neighbors with major talent such as TX in recruiting. CBB ignored TX until the last couple years.... you are seeing the results on the field. Fire CBB at the end of this season and start over with a clean slate of coaches.

Hire a new coach, yes I think that will help.  However, if you are counting on a new coach to come in here and recruit better than Bielema than you are kidding yourself.  Our recruiting is not going to be markedly improved by a new coach. Bielema is recruiting on average better than his predecessors by a bit, but he is still staying just ahead of our average since joining the SEC, which is 25th nationally.  A new coach is going to do the same or very close.  The results you are seeing on the field are the result of injury, misapplication of scholarships, player attrition, mismanagement of talent, a poor marriage of offensive philosophies between HC and OC, poor defensive scheme & and overall lack of mental toughness being instilled in the players.  It has nothing to do with Bielema ignoring Texas.

[elksnort]

The game of football (and other sports too) is oriented towards offense. I guess from pee wee to the NFL. The tackling or lack there of is atrocious. Chris Spielman type tacklers are becoming rare.

How many college teams have good to very good defenses? Name them.

Even in the national championship game Clemson and Alabama move the ball on each other and score points.

I think the key is to have a high powered offense, get the best guys you can for defense and insist that they are in position and tackle well. Also, and at least have a defense that is stingy with giving up points if not yardage. An opportunistic defense, one that forces timely fumbles and interceptions is what I have in mind.

I just don't think that there are near as many guys out there in high school that are great a defense as there are with offense. You just have to get what you can and coach the heck out of them.

I saw a guy for Arkansas at outside LB that looked like he was wearing leg weights. Don't want to mention his name. But unless this guy learns to just guess where to go, he will never make an impact.

[Hogs-n-Roses]

When hiring your new head coach he must counsel with Dick Bumpas to make his D coordinator hire or just have him as associate head coach.

[Cinco de Hogo]

How many NFL draft picks have come from Arkansas high schools since the 08/09 classes?

I can't think of more than a couple, Hunter Henry being one.

The university of AR only has about 60 draft picks in the last 22 year, and not all were in state kids. I know some in state kids got drafted playing for a school other than the UofA.

I'll agree, BB has not recruited the same talent, because the same talent has not been there.

How do you know?  Talent goes somewhere or it remains undeveloped.  BB's recruiting style has left a few by the wayside over the last five years.  3 star players dot the NFL landscape because they went somewhere and got developed.  Arkansas HAS to find those players, you say it constantly, we aren't getting the five stars ever.  Well not without winning 10 games a year for like 20 years.

[Hawghiggs]

 Higher a coach that actually focuses on the job. Someone who knows how to build relationships with high school coaches instead of being a boastful a$$.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Higher a coach that actually focuses on the job. Someone who knows how to build relationships with high school coaches instead of being a boastful a$$.

He has built relationships with HS Coaches. Not sure why you would think otherwise. The last part of your statement is dated. I haven't seen him "boast" lately. He certainly did some of that when he was new here.

[Hawghiggs]

He has built relationships with HS Coaches. Not sure why you would think otherwise. The last part of your statement is dated. I haven't seen him "boast" lately. He certainly did some of that when he was new here.

I'm probably blinded by dislike and disappointment. I'm just done with Bret Bielema and his sideshow.

[hogsanity]

How do you know?  Talent goes somewhere or it remains undeveloped.  BB's recruiting style has left a few by the wayside over the last five years.  3 star players dot the NFL landscape because they went somewhere and got developed.  Arkansas HAS to find those players, you say it constantly, we aren't getting the five stars ever.  Well not without winning 10 games a year for like 20 years.

Well, if BB is missing these players in state so is everyone else.  As for the NFL, they spend millions to find talent wherever it is. That is why there are guys in the NFL from FCS schools or even lower levels. Those guys got missed, or they blossomed after getting into college, or they did not have the grades for fbs.

But the top teams in the sec are not winning by relying on finding diamonds in the rough. Sure, they may get one of those now and then, but for the most part they are winning by getting top high school players that turn into top college players.

But, and this part gets ignored, I have said it is as much about depth of talent than anything. When you are not signing top classes, it means your 2nd level signees are just not very good. Can they be developed, sure some of them will rise above their ranking, but when they have to play early, sometimes as TR fresh it really shows.

[razorbackfaninar]

Well, if BB is missing these players in state so is everyone else.  As for the NFL, they spend millions to find talent wherever it is. That is why there are guys in the NFL from FCS schools or even lower levels. Those guys got missed, or they blossomed after getting into college, or they did not have the grades for fbs.

But the top teams in the sec are not winning by relying on finding diamonds in the rough. Sure, they may get one of those now and then, but for the most part they are winning by getting top high school players that turn into top college players.

But, and this part gets ignored, I have said it is as much about depth of talent than anything. When you are not signing top classes, it means your 2nd level signees are just not very good. Can they be developed, sure some of them will rise above their ranking, but when they have to play early, sometimes as TR fresh it really shows.

I think this is why it is important to look at the classes signed over a four or five year period to determine how a team is doing in recruiting.  A coach may get one 5 star recruit one year that bumps their recruiting ranking up, or they may have some legacy recruit that normally wouldn't go to a particular school.  But if you get a class ranked let's say 11th one year but the three years in front and back of that class are ranked in the 30's you still aren't going to have any quality depth, and that is what hurts us at Arkansas. 

[hogsanity]

I think this is why it is important to look at the classes signed over a four or five year period to determine how a team is doing in recruiting.  A coach may get one 5 star recruit one year that bumps their recruiting ranking up, or they may have some legacy recruit that normally wouldn't go to a particular school.  But if you get a class ranked let's say 11th one year but the three years in front and back of that class are ranked in the 30's you still aren't going to have any quality depth, and that is what hurts us at Arkansas. 

The thing that really hurts the Hogs is that they recruit better, according to the ranking services, than 105 FBS teams, but of the 24 that recruit better, 10 are in the same league as the Hogs.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Well, if BB is missing these players in state so is everyone else.  As for the NFL, they spend millions to find talent wherever it is. That is why there are guys in the NFL from FCS schools or even lower levels. Those guys got missed, or they blossomed after getting into college, or they did not have the grades for fbs.

But the top teams in the sec are not winning by relying on finding diamonds in the rough. Sure, they may get one of those now and then, but for the most part they are winning by getting top high school players that turn into top college players.

But, and this part gets ignored, I have said it is as much about depth of talent than anything. When you are not signing top classes, it means your 2nd level signees are just not very good. Can they be developed, sure some of them will rise above their ranking, but when they have to play early, sometimes as TR fresh it really shows.

All that is true but it's still the route we have to take, at least to reach another rung.  So, in the end the only thing we can do is hope we luck into a coach that can do more with less.  Just like 120 other aspiring programs.  Nobody is saying it's easy but it can be done and you know that.

[hogsanity]

All that is true but it's still the route we have to take, at least to reach another rung.  So, in the end the only thing we can do is hope we luck into a coach that can do more with less.  Just like 120 other aspiring programs.  Nobody is saying it's easy but it can be done and you know that.

I have never said it cant be done, on a one or two season scale, but it will not be sustained. A program is not going to be a 9 win program every year by relying on finding lumps of coal and turning them into gemstones.

[razorbackfaninar]

The thing that really hurts the Hogs is that they recruit better, according to the ranking services, than 105 FBS teams, but of the 24 that recruit better, 10 are in the same league as the Hogs.

Agreed.  It's always going to be tough sledding in the SEC West.  Arkansas is a job with zero Margin for error.  You can't afford miscalculations or poor evaluations. You just don't have the luxury when you are acing an opponent that has deeper talent at almost all positions.

[hogsanity]

Agreed.  It's always going to be tough sledding in the SEC West.  Arkansas is a job with zero Margin for error.  You can't afford miscalculations or poor evaluations. You just don't have the luxury when you are acing an opponent that has deeper talent at almost all positions.

Everyone has misses. Many are not even poor evaluations, players get hurt, players get homesick, players start making business decisions, players top out as sophs and do not continue to improve.

[hogginbama]

I'll hang up and listen

luke hawg, you are part of the coaching search committee aren't you? Everyone knows the best coaches and recruiters are right here on hogville.net. Don't believe me, read the posts, they know everything about developing players, calling plays, how to get recruits to sign here instead of Alabama/Clemson/Ohio State. Heck ole Jeff could save some money and just come to hogville and get his next coaching staff for a few six-packs a week.

[Cinco de Hogo]

luke hawg, you are part of the coaching search committee aren't you? Everyone knows the best coaches and recruiters are right here on hogville.net. Don't believe me, read the posts, they know everything about developing players, calling plays, how to get recruits to sign here instead of Alabama/Clemson/Ohio State. Heck ole Jeff could save some money and just come to hogville and get his next coaching staff for a few six-packs a week.

All this s homegrown talent going to waste in favor of a carpetbagger.

Things that make you go hmmmm!

[ThisTeetsTaken]

We're getting about the same caliber recruiting classes we always get no matter who the coach is.   One difference, though, is after Partridge & Pittman left we stopped getting the 1 or 2 difference makers from out of state.   

[gawntrail]

luke hawg, you are part of the coaching search committee aren't you? Everyone knows the best coaches and recruiters are right here on hogville.net. Don't believe me, read the posts, they know everything about developing players, calling plays, how to get recruits to sign here instead of Alabama/Clemson/Ohio State. Heck ole Jeff could save some money and just come to hogville and get his next coaching staff for a few six-packs a week.

Sarcasm aside.  Considering what we've seen for roughly 5 years....... I guarantee you there are better evaluators of talent, coaches of fundamentals, play callers, and executive decision makers sprinkled amongst Hogville readers/posters. 

[hogsanity]

Sarcasm aside.  Considering what we've seen for roughly 5 years....... I guarantee you there are better evaluators of talent, coaches of fundamentals, play callers, and executive decision makers sprinkled amongst Hogville readers/posters. 

I guarantee you are wrong.

[HognotinMemphis]

Pay me $4.2 million a year for 5 years and I will get to work on it.

[gawntrail]

I guarantee you are wrong.

I could visit 8 football games this Friday night and find a better OL coach.  I could drive to any neighboring state and visit 2 games this Friday night and find a better DB coach.  I could turn on a FL game this Friday night and find a ST coach.  I'd bet real money there is a solid OC and DC amongst Hogville posters.  And, I'm sure a collection of any combo of whom I listed would be as successful, if not more, than B.B. and his picks. 

Only slight hyperbole in what I'm saying.  Anybody coaching the Hogs can bumble in to a 11-26 SEC record for much less than $4+MM/yr.  For that kind of money we should be shooting .500 in Conference play.