Can we quit the "Albert Pujols is the best ever" stuff?

[EastexHawg]

Guys, I agree that Albert Pujols is the best hitter in baseball at the moment.  I further agree that, if he maintains his production, he is on his way to a Hall of Fame Career and status as one of the game's great hitters.

I further realize there are a lot of Cardinals fans in Arkansas, and that a big percentage of Razorback fans are also Cardinals fans.

But...I have to take issue with the "Albert Pujols may be the best hitter ever" comments.

Here are Albert's average stats per 162 games played thus far in his career, as taken from ESPN.com...compared with Babe Ruth's 162 game averages for his first ten years as a full time outfielder with the Yankees (1920-1931, years in which he did not play fewer than 110 games due to injury):

At bats:  Pujols 603, RUTH 566
Runs:  Pujols 130, RUTH 165
Hits: Pujols 201, RUTH 206
Doubles:  Pujols 46, RUTH 37
Triples:  Pujols 2, RUTH 9
Home Runs:  Pujols 43, RUTH 55
RBI:  Pujols 130, RUTH 162
Bases on Balls:  Pujols 85, RUTH 149
Strikeouts:  Pujols 70, RUTH 83
Stolen Bases:  Pujols 6, RUTH 11

BATTING AVERAGE:  Pujols .332, RUTH .365
SLUGGING PERCENTAGE:  Pujols .628, RUTH .754
ON-BASE PERCENTAGE:  Pujols .419, RUTH .497
OPS (ON-BASE PLUS SLUGGING): Pujols 1.047, RUTH 1.251

Babe Ruth is the standard by which all hitters are measured.  Albert Pujols has had a great run, but he has CLEARLY not matched Ruth's production.  In addition to the stats, Ruth also led the Yankees to seven World Series, with the Yankees winning four of them.  He held the World Series record for homers until Mickey Mantle broke it.

Similar, although not as overwhelming, cases could be made for Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, and Jimmie Foxx over the first 10-12 full seasons of their careers. 

Ted Williams' career average was .344, his career slugging percentage was higher than Pujols', he averaged 37 homers and 130 RBI per 162 games played in his career, and his career on-base percentage was .481.

Not trying to be a killjoy or a "hater"...but baseball has been played for a long, long time.  IMO, Albert Pujols has a long way to go before having the "best ever" tag slapped on him.

[HoggerNocker]

Pujols may be the best ever, but it is too early to tell.  Any true baseball fan knows that you can not compare numbers between era's.  It does not work, there are too many differences in the way the game is played between generations.

So lets chill out and watch history in the making.

[EastexHawg]

What you CAN look at is hitters' production compared to their contemporaries. 

Ruth led the league in home runs nine of those ten years.  One year he hit more home runs than every other TEAM in the American League.

He almost doubled the existing record for home runs in a season (post-1900)...then he more than doubled his own record!

Ruth was doing things no one was doing at the time, and things no one had ever come close to doing before he came along.

Pujols is a great hitter, but he is playing in an era in which 50-homer seasons are commonplace.  Every player who hit 50 or more homers in a season before 1960 was a Hall of Famer.  Now, you have guys like Brady Anderson, Greg Vaughn, and Luis Gonzales hitting 50 or more in a season.

In the first 130 years of Major League Baseball history, two men hit 60 or more home runs in a season a total of two times.  It was done six times between 1998 and 2001...

Here's one way of looking at it.  Babe Ruth's career E.R.A. was 2.28.  No starting pitcher in the last 50 years has compiled that low an E.R.A. for his career...and only a select few have done it in a season in the last 20 years.

That gives you an idea of how scoring has increased since the time of Babe Ruth.

[Pragmatic PiG]

Simply answered, no we can't, not on this board anyways.

[Table Rocker]

you are the one comparing him to babe, dimaggio, williams, not us, but thanks, only re-inforces my belief that he is on track to become one of the best ever.

[EastexHawg]

Read the "steroids" thread.  At least one poster there brings up the "best ever" thing about Pujols...and that's far from the first time I've heard it from a Cards fan.

As I said, I believe he is well on his way to putting up one of the more impressive careers of the last 50 years...but I think he has to put up a few more great years to build his resume.  In fact, at this point I'd say he has to put together several more similar seasons to surpass Stan Musial for the best hitting career in Cardinals history.

[Snort and Squeal]

Your talking about Ruth who hit in an era when pitchers had two pitches:  fast ball and a little faster ball. 

[EastexHawg]

Did you ever hear of Carl Hubbell's screwball...or the spitball?  Do you honestly believe Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland Alexander, and Walter Johnson only had one pitch?

BTW, if the pitching was so poor in Ruth's day, and hitting was so easy...why wasn't anyone else doing what he was doing at the plate?  And why were virtually all of the top 50 career ERAs compiled before 1930?

[Table Rocker]

Read the "steroids" thread.  At least one poster there brings up the "best ever" thing about Pujols...and that's far from the first time I've heard it from a Cards fan.

As I said, I believe he is well on his way to putting up one of the more impressive careers of the last 50 years...but I think he has to put up a few more great years to build his resume.  In fact, at this point I'd say he has to put together several more similar seasons to surpass Stan Musial for the best hitting career in Cardinals history.

pujols has work to do to be considered better than musial.........gee ya think??? ask any cardinal fan, any, and none will say pujols is already better than stan musial. we cardinal fans are the best in baseball for a reason.......we know our #@$%

[Table Rocker]

um, if you read that thread again the post saying pujols was close to being the best ever was from dmac who says at the end "I'm not even a cardinal fan" hence your entire thread is null and void.

[bulldog04]

The "best baseball player ever" doesn't mean the best hitter ever.  Ruth was more than just a decent pitcher and he played in the outfield.  Pujols plays first base.  Willie Mays is considered the best centerfielder ever and he was a five tool player.  Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite.  Pujols doesn't have a ring either.

[dhornjr1]

You can't truly judge how great a player is until his career is winding down. Right now, over the last five+ years, Albert Pujols has been the best hitter in baseball. And I mean by a lot. He's also a good baserunner and an above-average fielder and getting better. Put all those together and you get the best player over the last five years. Best ever? Only time will tell.

Also, in comparison to Stan Musial, he's well on his way to matching or surpassing Stan as the greatest Cardinal ever. He's already proven over the last five+ years that he's the best hitter and best player the Cardinals have had since Musial. Better than Brock, Flood, Hernandez, McGee, Boyer, Ozzie, and Gibson.

If he continues his pace, he will be mentioned in the same breath with Mays, Aaron, Ruth, Bonds, Mantle and the other members of the baseball Mount Rushmore as one of the elite players of all time.

Non-Cardinal fans, don't hate him because he's the best current player. Just enjoy him. Like Bonds.

You'll be able to tell your kids and/or your grandkids that you saw Albert The Great beat your team like my dad and granddad told me about Jackie Robinson bringing up the chalk down the third base line in Sportsman Park or Willie Mays making a barehanded catch off a Brock liner in the gap.

I wouldn't trade those stories for anything.

[EastexHawg]

Non-Cardinal fans, don't hate him because he's the best current player. Just enjoy him. Like Bonds.

You'll be able to tell your kids and/or your grandkids that you saw Albert The Great beat your team like my dad and granddad told me about Jackie Robinson bringing up the chalk down the third base line in Sportsman Park or Willie Mays making a barehanded catch off a Brock liner in the gap.

I wouldn't trade those stories for anything.

Here's the problem.  When you are an old-timer, sitting around telling the youngsters about the great Albert Pujols...about the 680 career homers he hit, the .325 career batting average, the slugging percentage, the tape measure home runs, the wicked line drives that almost decapitated infielders...

Some of them will pipe up with, "You can't compare players between eras.  Look at the pitching Pujols faced in the early 2000s compared to what today's players face.  Look how cheap home runs were back then!  Pujols was good in his time, but could he do it today, now that pitchers are throwing 110 mph, the average outfielder is 6'6" and 285 pounds, and ballparks are bigger than the old stadium he played in in St. Louis?"

I do not hate Albert Pujols (I despise Barry Bonds, but that's a different story).  In fact, I admire what he is doing.  He is a GREAT HITTER.  Then again, Don Mattingly was a great hitter before he fell off the face of the earth.  All I'm saying is the "greatest hitter" talk is way premature and overblown.

I think there must be a certain portion of the American population that doesn't realize sports...and the world, for that matter...existed before about 1994.  Today's best players are not only great...they are the BEST EVER.  Tiger Woods.  Lebron James.  Barry Bonds.  And, according to some, Albert Pujols.  And...Darren McFadden (at least at Arkansas).

Most of the major sports have been played for a long, long time.  There were incredible players who played years, or even decades ago.  That's all I'm saying.  I would just like to see a little more historical perspective.

BTW, I am an Astros fan...but I do not dislike the Cardinals.  In fact, I've always kind of liked the Cardinals.  I enjoy the rivalry of today, although I freely admit the Cards have the much greater tradition and history...maybe the best in National League history (only the Dodgers could argue that, IMO).

[Table Rocker]

The "best baseball player ever" doesn't mean the best hitter ever.  Ruth was more than just a decent pitcher and he played in the outfield.  Pujols plays first base.  Willie Mays is considered the best centerfielder ever and he was a five tool player.  Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite.  Pujols doesn't have a ring either.

"Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite".....well, then your book doesn't mean shiit cuz thats one of the most idiotic statements i've ever heard.

[bulldog04]

The "best baseball player ever" doesn't mean the best hitter ever.  Ruth was more than just a decent pitcher and he played in the outfield.  Pujols plays first base.  Willie Mays is considered the best centerfielder ever and he was a five tool player.  Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite.  Pujols doesn't have a ring either.

"Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite".....well, then your book doesn't mean shiit cuz thats one of the most idiotic statements i've ever heard.

There's more to baseball than hitting.  People have to catch the ball, run the bases, and throw the ball.  Ruth did all this.  Pujols sits on first base.  Mays could hit as could as Pujols, he was faster, and he played a mean centerfield.

Tell me when Pujols steals 40 bases and makes acrobatic catches often.  Defense is very underated.

[Table Rocker]

you obviously don't watch baseball if you think pujols isn't a good defender. seriously, just stop, you don't know what you are talking about. your a brave's fan who ObVIOUSLY doesn't watch the Cardinals b/c he is near the top of the league as far as defense at first is concerned. you're looking for something to bash him for, your jealousy is making you sound baseball-retarded. bitter about him beating out andruw for MVP last year?

[Snort and Squeal]

The "best baseball player ever" doesn't mean the best hitter ever.  Ruth was more than just a decent pitcher and he played in the outfield.  Pujols plays first base.  Willie Mays is considered the best centerfielder ever and he was a five tool player.  Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite.  Pujols doesn't have a ring either.

"Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite".....well, then your book doesn't mean shiit cuz thats one of the most idiotic statements i've ever heard.

There's more to baseball than hitting.  People have to catch the ball, run the bases, and throw the ball.  Ruth did all this.  Pujols sits on first base.  Mays could hit as could as Pujols, he was faster, and he played a mean centerfield.

Tell me when Pujols steals 40 bases and makes acrobatic catches often.  Defense is very underated.

SITS ON FIRST!!  Pujols is an all around player.  He is as smart a baserunner as there is in the game and he fields with the ease of a gold glover.

[Table Rocker]

he doesn't know baseball.

[bulldog04]

FIRST BASE!   FIRST BASE!

NOT SS OR THE OF, FIRST BASE!
I'm not saying he isn't good, just not the "best."

I know baseball as good as anyone on this board guaranteed.

[Ugly Uncle]

FIRST BASE!   FIRST BASE!

NOT SS OR THE OF, FIRST BASE!
I'm not saying he isn't good, just not the "best."

I know baseball as good as anyone on this board guaranteed.

I agree with you that he cannot be labeled as the best ever.  Not now, and probably not ever.  However, if we are talking about being the best player playing right now...I think you would have to go with AP.  A case could be made for A Rod, but he seems to be a cancer in the club house.  If you were starting a team right now, you would have to chose AP as your #1 pick.  Still, to say that AP will or is the best ever...no way.  And I am a HUGE cardinal fan.

[Ugly Uncle]

Non-Cardinal fans, don't hate him because he's the best current player. Just enjoy him. Like Bonds.

You'll be able to tell your kids and/or your grandkids that you saw Albert The Great beat your team like my dad and granddad told me about Jackie Robinson bringing up the chalk down the third base line in Sportsman Park or Willie Mays making a barehanded catch off a Brock liner in the gap.

I wouldn't trade those stories for anything.

Here's the problem.  When you are an old-timer, sitting around telling the youngsters about the great Albert Pujols...about the 680 career homers he hit, the .325 career batting average, the slugging percentage, the tape measure home runs, the wicked line drives that almost decapitated infielders...

Some of them will pipe up with, "You can't compare players between eras.  Look at the pitching Pujols faced in the early 2000s compared to what today's players face.  Look how cheap home runs were back then!  Pujols was good in his time, but could he do it today, now that pitchers are throwing 110 mph, the average outfielder is 6'6" and 285 pounds, and ballparks are bigger than the old stadium he played in in St. Louis?"

I do not hate Albert Pujols (I despise Barry Bonds, but that's a different story).  In fact, I admire what he is doing.  He is a GREAT HITTER.  Then again, Don Mattingly was a great hitter before he fell off the face of the earth.  All I'm saying is the "greatest hitter" talk is way premature and overblown.

I think there must be a certain portion of the American population that doesn't realize sports...and the world, for that matter...existed before about 1994.  Today's best players are not only great...they are the BEST EVER.  Tiger Woods.  Lebron James.  Barry Bonds.  And, according to some, Albert Pujols.  And...Darren McFadden (at least at Arkansas).

Most of the major sports have been played for a long, long time.  There were incredible players who played years, or even decades ago.  That's all I'm saying.  I would just like to see a little more historical perspective.

BTW, I am an Astros fan...but I do not dislike the Cardinals.  In fact, I've always kind of liked the Cardinals.  I enjoy the rivalry of today, although I freely admit the Cards have the much greater tradition and history...maybe the best in National League history (only the Dodgers could argue that, IMO).

By the way ETX,

The Cardinals have by far the better tradition between them and the Dodgers.  The Dodgers are only considered in that conversation because they were a NY team, and of Jackie Robinson.

[bulldog04]

FIRST BASE!   FIRST BASE!

NOT SS OR THE OF, FIRST BASE!
I'm not saying he isn't good, just not the "best."

I know baseball as good as anyone on this board guaranteed.

I agree with you that he cannot be labeled as the best ever.  Not now, and probably not ever.  However, if we are talking about being the best player playing right now...I think you would have to go with AP.  A case could be made for A Rod, but he seems to be a cancer in the club house.  If you were starting a team right now, you would have to chose AP as your #1 pick.  Still, to say that AP will or is the best ever...no way.  And I am a HUGE cardinal fan.

Agreed.   Yes right now at this current minute AP is the "best" b/c he is on fire.

I think Jimmy Rollins is very underated.  He's pretty high up their as to who I would start a team with or Miguel Carbrera.

[Snort and Squeal]

FIRST BASE!   FIRST BASE!

NOT SS OR THE OF, FIRST BASE!
I'm not saying he isn't good, just not the "best."

I know baseball as good as anyone on this board guaranteed.

I agree with you that he cannot be labeled as the best ever.  Not now, and probably not ever.  However, if we are talking about being the best player playing right now...I think you would have to go with AP.  A case could be made for A Rod, but he seems to be a cancer in the club house.  If you were starting a team right now, you would have to chose AP as your #1 pick.  Still, to say that AP will or is the best ever...no way.  And I am a HUGE cardinal fan.

Agreed.   Yes right now at this current minute AP is the "best" b/c he is on fire.

I think Jimmy Rollins is very underated.  He's pretty high up their as to who I would start a team with or Miguel Carbrera.

Jimmy fn Rollins? The career .273 hitter?  Batting .264 this season?

Cabrera... okay a .301 hitter and defiantly a good guy to build a team around but no MVPujols.

We are talking about a.332 career hitter in Pujols.

I will admit that he does not have the credentials yet to challenge some of the true "All Time Greats" but Rollins and Cabrera.....

[Ugly Uncle]

FIRST BASE!   FIRST BASE!

NOT SS OR THE OF, FIRST BASE!
I'm not saying he isn't good, just not the "best."

I know baseball as good as anyone on this board guaranteed.

I agree with you that he cannot be labeled as the best ever.  Not now, and probably not ever.  However, if we are talking about being the best player playing right now...I think you would have to go with AP.  A case could be made for A Rod, but he seems to be a cancer in the club house.  If you were starting a team right now, you would have to chose AP as your #1 pick.  Still, to say that AP will or is the best ever...no way.  And I am a HUGE cardinal fan.

Agreed.   Yes right now at this current minute AP is the "best" b/c he is on fire.

I think Jimmy Rollins is very underated.  He's pretty high up their as to who I would start a team with or Miguel Carbrera.

Jimmy fn Rollins? The career .273 hitter?  Batting .264 this season?

Cabrera... okay a .301 hitter and defiantly a good guy to build a team around but no MVPujols.

We are talking about a.332 career hitter in Pujols.

I will admit that he does not have the credentials yet to challenge some of the true "All Time Greats" but Rollins and Cabrera.....

I like those guys as well.  But not even close to AP.  I would put Vernon Wells up there before I would those guys.  Still, Pujols is head and shoulders above others playing right now...except for maybe A. Rod.  An. Jones would be my third pick.  Well, actually, I wouldn't pick A. Rod, because I think he kills team chemistry.

[pigture perfect]

There is a very good reason AP is playing 1st Base. He is being protected because the cards would be in a world of hurt without him. He played SS in college, broke into the majors as a really good 3rd baseman, has played outfield has a great right fielders arm, but plays 1st because Scott Rolen is the everyday 3rd. If Scott could stay healthy, you'd hear him mentioned in the same breath as Kell and Robinson as greatest 3rd basemen. I just hope AP breaks Pete Roses Alltime hits record.

[pigture perfect]

I disagree Uncle with you even mentioning A-rod as being close. He is not even as good as his team mate Jeter in my opinion.

[Ugly Uncle]

I disagree Uncle with you even mentioning A-rod as being close. He is not even as good as his team mate Jeter in my opinion.

Were you shocked that MLB players voted Jeter as the most overrated baseball player?

[pigture perfect]

I hadn't heard that.  WoW

[Ugly Uncle]

I hadn't heard that.  WoW

Yeah...5 WS.  2 gold gloves.  Every year in the playoffs.  Career BA over .300.

Don't know how they figure he is the most overrated.

[bulldog04]

I hadn't heard that.  WoW

Yeah...5 WS.  2 gold gloves.  Every year in the playoffs.  Career BA over .300.

Don't know how they figure he is the most overrated.

I think it has something to do w/  "what have you done for me lately."
The Yanks haven't been to a WS in 4 or 5 years and if you look at his yearly stats they are average.  He plays in NY so he is better than what he is.  Just imagine in Vernon Well played in NY or if Druw's year would have been spent in NY.  Also Beltran was on that list and where does he play.

[TuckFexas]

The "best baseball player ever" doesn't mean the best hitter ever.  Ruth was more than just a decent pitcher and he played in the outfield.  Pujols plays first base.  Willie Mays is considered the best centerfielder ever and he was a five tool player.  Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite.  Pujols doesn't have a ring either.

"Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite".....well, then your book doesn't mean shiit cuz thats one of the most idiotic statements i've ever heard.

There's more to baseball than hitting.  People have to catch the ball, run the bases, and throw the ball.  Ruth did all this.  Pujols sits on first base.  Mays could hit as could as Pujols, he was faster, and he played a mean centerfield.

Tell me when Pujols steals 40 bases and makes acrobatic catches often.  Defense is very underated.

I'm doing my best not to insult your intelligence here. I will say this, before you make idiotic statements such as this, watch Pujols play. He had 16 stolen bases last year, outstanding for a first baseman. Early in his career, he played outfield and third base. He's only been playing for 1st for a few years, and has become an outstanding 1st baseman. Since 2003, he's had a fielding % of .997, .994, and .992.  To say he doesn't play defense is like saying Babe Ruth was a contact hitter. We know what he has done as a hitter, so I will neglect to mention that.

Pujols is a complete player. Period. He brings it every day, never packing it in. He is also durable. He's never played less that 154 games in his short career, and has played injured.

[bulldog04]

The "best baseball player ever" doesn't mean the best hitter ever.  Ruth was more than just a decent pitcher and he played in the outfield.  Pujols plays first base.  Willie Mays is considered the best centerfielder ever and he was a five tool player.  Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite.  Pujols doesn't have a ring either.

"Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite".....well, then your book doesn't mean shiit cuz thats one of the most idiotic statements i've ever heard.

There's more to baseball than hitting.  People have to catch the ball, run the bases, and throw the ball.  Ruth did all this.  Pujols sits on first base.  Mays could hit as could as Pujols, he was faster, and he played a mean centerfield.

Tell me when Pujols steals 40 bases and makes acrobatic catches often.  Defense is very underated.

I'm doing my best not to insult your intelligence here. I will say this, before you make idiotic statements such as this, watch Pujols play. He had 16 stolen bases last year, outstanding for a first baseman. Early in his career, he played outfield and third base. He's only been playing for 1st for a few years, and has become an outstanding 1st baseman. Since 2003, he's had a fielding % of .997, .994, and .992.  To say he doesn't play defense is like saying Babe Ruth was a contact hitter. We know what he has done as a hitter, so I will neglect to mention that.

Pujols is a complete player. Period. He brings it every day, never packing it in. He is also durable. He's never played less that 154 games in his short career, and has played injured.

When will yall understand?  This post was about AP being the best ever.  You can't say he is the best ever because he has a long way to go.  The position at which he plays hurts him because it doesn't demand what other positions do.

He can't be compared to Ruth ,obviously because of the stats, and Ruth was also a good pitcher who could have won 300 games if he would have kept pitching.  Same thing with Mays except he played CF one of the hardest positions to play and could really run. 

Some say he is the best CF ever while I have heard some (Peter Gammons, Bobby Cox) say  Andruw is.

[pigture perfect]

You're going to say that I'm just a Cardinals homer, But Andy Jones can't be considered the best even of his generation until edmonds retires. He makes all the plays Druw does and has been doing it longer. The only way Jones stands out is that he is the best player on his team, while Edmonds is not. Tori Hunter is also more of a complete player. None of them will ever be as good as the "Say Hey Kid".

[Table Rocker]

Peter Gammons said so, well then it is so, also his OWN manager said he was the best, that's two, I haven't heard many others even whisper his name in the same sentence with Willie Mays, Jimmy has made tons of great plays in his career, but you will never hear a Cards fan say he's a better player than Willie. How can you get away with saying Andruw has been called the best CF ever by some but we cards fans can't compare Pujols to any of the greats? makes no sense, you can be a homer but we can't?

[bulldog04]

Edmonds broke into the league just 3 years before AJ.  AJ has a .990 FPCT while Jim has a .987 FPCT.  AJ has has 17 more assists than Jim.  The most assists Jim ever had in a season was 12.  In 98 AJ had 20.  AJ has 938 more outfield putouts than  Jim.  Jim has played only 8 full seasons since breakin in with Druw has played 9.  Jim averages 335 PO a year while Druw avgs. 425.

There is no comparison between Jim and AJ with AJ having more range, better jump, and better arm and more durability.

Not being homer just stating facts my friend.

[Table Rocker]

My case for Jimmy..........

His performance in the 2004 NLCS, talk to me when Andruw puts up a similar performance on a similar stage.

If you don't know the significance of these two plays google it and find out, AJ hasn't made a play as close as important as these when it matters the most, your fielding % and putouts don't mean a thing.  The best are measured by their plays in the postseason (i.e. willie mays over the shoulder in the world series)

[Table Rocker]

Also, too say there is NO COMPARISION between Jimmy and Andruw is completely ludicris. I'm a Cards fan but I admit Andruw is one of the top defensive outfielders in the league, you should try doing the same, it gives you credibility. Otherwise you sound like a blatant homer whether you like it or not.

[bulldog04]

Jimmy is good but AJ is a better CF.  Nobody but Cardinal fans are going to remember Jimmy's catches because they weren't in the WS.

Does anybody remember when AJ was 19 and hit those two HRs in the WS @ Yankee Stadium ?
I know this has nothing to do with the thread but just wondering.

[Table Rocker]

Okay, I'm done discussing this topic with you. You discount every point I make like "No one but Cardinal fans will remember that play", done, you're a blatant homer that can't have a descent baseball discussion, ask Astro fans if they remember that play, you obviously didn't watch, your team was long gone, busy wasting another division title. Go ahead and believe that Andruw Jones is head and shoulders above Jimmy, Albert Pujols is a fluke, the Braves are the greatest team known to man (oh yeah, America's team) fine, but you're sounding like a Cubs fan.

[dhornjr1]

Guys. I have been a Cardinals fan for close to 30 years and Andruw Jones is the best defensive outfielder I have seen in that time. I wasn't around to see Willie Mays but my dad was and he says that he was the best all-around player that he ever saw. he became a Cardinal fan when he was 12 years old in 1950 so he got to see Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Marichal, Robinson. That was the golden age of baseball.

Mays was the best defensive outfielder ever. No one has topped him yet. Not even Andruw Jones.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/mays_willie.htm

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mayswi01.shtml

[ThisLittlePiggie]

BTW, I am an Astros fan...but I do not dislike the Cardinals.  In fact, I've always kind of liked the Cardinals.  I enjoy the rivalry of today, although I freely admit the Cards have the much greater tradition and history...maybe the best in National League history (only the Dodgers could argue that, IMO).

I am a Cardinal fan. And an Albert Pujols fan. And every comment you've made about baseball today versus yesteryear is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Ruth was hitting 60 HRs a season when most teams were not hitting that many. Off pitchers throwing downhill from a pitching mound 5 or 6 inches higher than we have today. And those old timers, Alexander, Grove, Johnson, Mathewson, etal, could flat out chuck it.

In the mid-fifties Herb Score was throwing 100 Mph consistently until he took a line drive off the bat of Gil McDougle right between the eyes. He had followed Bobby Feller (1930s to the early 50s) with the Cleveland Indians. Feller also had blinding speed, timed at 100 Mph with early radar/camera guns. Ryan Duren did too. So did Don Newcomb, Sandy Koufax and many more who could get it up around a 100.  Pitching speed is not relative to the physical size of a pitcher. Your little southpaw closer (name escapes me) in Houston proved that over a number of years.

Back to Musial and Pujols. If Stan had not missed a full season in 1945 to the military and if he had played in the era of 162 games rather than 154 per season, both Ty Cobb and Pete Rose would be distant seconds to Stash as an all time major league hit leader. Of course Stan may have trailed Ted Williams who lost several years (at least 4) to the military in addition to playing 154 game seasons his entire career.   

[ThisLittlePiggie]

Guys. I have been a Cardinals fan for close to 30 years and Andruw Jones is the best defensive outfielder I have seen in that time. I wasn't around to see Willie Mays but my dad was and he says that he was the best all-around player that he ever saw. he became a Cardinal fan when he was 12 years old in 1950 so he got to see Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Marichal, Robinson. That was the golden age of baseball.

Mays was the best defensive outfielder ever. No one has topped him yet. Not even Andruw Jones.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/mays_willie.htm

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mayswi01.shtml

Andruw Jones hasn't even topped Jim Edmonds.

[ledhead830]

Did you ever hear of Carl Hubbell's screwball...or the spitball?  Do you honestly believe Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland Alexander, and Walter Johnson only had one pitch?

BTW, if the pitching was so poor in Ruth's day, and hitting was so easy...why wasn't anyone else doing what he was doing at the plate?  And why were virtually all of the top 50 career ERAs compiled before 1930?

Well, they were on the average...  .360 wasn't uncommon back when parks were 450 to center and outfielders could simply not get to everything and gloves were little bigger than the palm of your hand.

Pujols isn't the best ever.  Right now, I can't even say he's the best Cardinal ever.  Pujols is a very, very talented and smart player, and that is why he can steal 16 bases in 17 attempts with the speed of Brian Walker.  He needs to begin to be a little more productive at the plate in terms of RBIs for his stats to look better, though that's not really his fault.  If his career ended today, he COULD be considered one of the top 50 players of all time, and if he continues on this pace for ten seasons, he COULD be considered one of the top 10 players of all time. 

[Table Rocker]

Improve his RBI totals? 130,124,123,117 and he's on pace to get more than that last year. He's already got more than 600 RBI, in 5 1/3 seasons, that's amazing. I'm not sure but that has to be one of the highest first 5 year total in history. I'm not saying he's the best ever yet, not all at, he's the best right now, and if he stays healthy and keeps up his pace he will be one of the best ever by the time he's done. The biggest gripe I had about Pujols before last season was his inability to deliever a big hit in the clutch, well, let's just say after last year's NLCS I have no more complaints about him.

[Oklahawg]

Lots of thoughts on both sides of the debate.

For Ruth:
1. shorter season
2. less dilution of talent (meaning, better pitching, #1 to #9)
3. tougher travel
4. less focus on conditioning (have to chuckle on that one!)
5. played OF his entire career (once he left pitching)

For Pujols:
1. good enough to play 3B or OF as a gold-glove candidate at all 3
2. better base runner than Ruth
3. financial focus of baseball now protects players for the long-haul; the investment in Pujols means he'll never get pushed to "work through" serious injuries
4. still getting better

As a Cards fan it hurts, but Jimmy Edmonds is a mediocre CF these days. Especially when the all-around game is considered. I can think of a dozen I'd prefer to be roaming CF for the Cards this October (!).

Best all-around player label is tricky. Here's my top 5:
1. Willie Mays
2. Mickey Mantle
3. Rickey Henderson
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Barry Bonds

Ruth, Cobb, Shoeless Joe...tough to gauge those guys against the modern era. Equally tough to discuss Pujols, A-Rod and Bonds when they are still active.

Most athletic pitchers? These are the five most likely to help you batting, fielding, running the bases, or playing OF or SS in a freak, late-inning move:
1. Bob Gibson
2. Sandy Koufax
3. Walter Johnson
4. Bob Feller
5. Greg Maddux

[ledhead830]

Improve his RBI totals? 130,124,123,117 and he's on pace to get more than that last year. He's already got more than 600 RBI, in 5 1/3 seasons, that's amazing. I'm not sure but that has to be one of the highest first 5 year total in history. I'm not saying he's the best ever yet, not all at, he's the best right now, and if he stays healthy and keeps up his pace he will be one of the best ever by the time he's done. The biggest gripe I had about Pujols before last season was his inability to deliever a big hit in the clutch, well, let's just say after last year's NLCS I have no more complaints about him.

yeah, I meant to say to catch up to Ruth's totals in RBIs. Ruth had some mammoth RBI totals (10 seasons with 131 or more), though it helps when your team is murderers row.

[Table Rocker]

Pujols' RBI totals will catch up with Ruth if he continues this home run tear. If Pujols starts putting up 50+ homers a season he might flirt with ol' Hack Wilson.

[pigture perfect]

Lots of thoughts on both sides of the debate.

For Ruth:
1. shorter season
2. less dilution of talent (meaning, better pitching, #1 to #9)
3. tougher travel
4. less focus on conditioning (have to chuckle on that one!)
5. played OF his entire career (once he left pitching)

For Pujols:
1. good enough to play 3B or OF as a gold-glove candidate at all 3
2. better base runner than Ruth
3. financial focus of baseball now protects players for the long-haul; the investment in Pujols means he'll never get pushed to "work through" serious injuries
4. still getting better

As a Cards fan it hurts, but Jimmy Edmonds is a mediocre CF these days. Especially when the all-around game is considered. I can think of a dozen I'd prefer to be roaming CF for the Cards this October (!).

Best all-around player label is tricky. Here's my top 5:
1. Willie Mays
2. Mickey Mantle
3. Rickey Henderson
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Barry Bonds

Ruth, Cobb, Shoeless Joe...tough to gauge those guys against the modern era. Equally tough to discuss Pujols, A-Rod and Bonds when they are still active.

Most athletic pitchers? These are the five most likely to help you batting, fielding, running the bases, or playing OF or SS in a freak, late-inning move:
1. Bob Gibson
2. Sandy Koufax
3. Walter Johnson
4. Bob Feller
5. Greg Maddux

You almost have it correct. No way is Ricky Henderson or Barry Bonds as good as Ted Williams. He is at least equal to Mantle and Dimaggio.

[Ugly Uncle]

Lots of thoughts on both sides of the debate.

For Ruth:
1. shorter season
2. less dilution of talent (meaning, better pitching, #1 to #9)
3. tougher travel
4. less focus on conditioning (have to chuckle on that one!)
5. played OF his entire career (once he left pitching)

For Pujols:
1. good enough to play 3B or OF as a gold-glove candidate at all 3
2. better base runner than Ruth
3. financial focus of baseball now protects players for the long-haul; the investment in Pujols means he'll never get pushed to "work through" serious injuries
4. still getting better

As a Cards fan it hurts, but Jimmy Edmonds is a mediocre CF these days. Especially when the all-around game is considered. I can think of a dozen I'd prefer to be roaming CF for the Cards this October (!).

Best all-around player label is tricky. Here's my top 5:
1. Willie Mays
2. Mickey Mantle
3. Rickey Henderson
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Barry Bonds

Ruth, Cobb, Shoeless Joe...tough to gauge those guys against the modern era. Equally tough to discuss Pujols, A-Rod and Bonds when they are still active.

Most athletic pitchers? These are the five most likely to help you batting, fielding, running the bases, or playing OF or SS in a freak, late-inning move:
1. Bob Gibson
2. Sandy Koufax
3. Walter Johnson
4. Bob Feller
5. Greg Maddux

You almost have it correct. No way is Ricky Henderson or Barry Bonds as good as Ted Williams. He is at least equal to Mantle and Dimaggio.

I cannot think of 12 CF that I would rather have than Edmonds.  A. Jones is definitely one...I think he is well above Edmonds at this stage.  But the last few years...when Edmonds was in his prime, and Jones seemed to get lazy on a few balls...I would have taken JE.  Not only that, but I feel that JE is a better clubhouse guy(leader) than Jones.  However, since that is only a hunch...I would have to go with Jones.

[EastexHawg]

This is not a "run down Albert Pujols" post, but since I mentioned a few other players in my first post...here is how the first several full years of Jimmie Foxx's career (six years), Ted Williams' career (eight years), and Lou Gehrig's career (nine years) compared to Pujols' very impressive start.

BTW, Foxx, Williams, and Gehrig's numbers are extrapolated over a 162 game season (I took their actual numbers and multiplied by 1.0519):

AT BATS:  Pujols 603, Williams 555, Gehrig 582, Foxx 577
HITS:  Pujols 201, Williams 196, Gehrig 213, Foxx 196
RUNS SCORED:  Pujols 130, Williams 142, Gehrig 147, Foxx 130
DOUBLES:  Pujols 46, Williams 41, Gehrig 44, Foxx 33
TRIPLES:  Pujols 2, Williams 7, Gehrig 14, Foxx 10
HOME RUNS:  Pujols 43, Williams 35, Gehrig 38, Foxx 44
RBI:  Pujols 130, Williams 136, Gehrig 160, Foxx 150
BASES ON BALLS:  Pujols 85, Williams 145, Gehrig 112, Foxx 104
STRIKEOUTS:  Pujols 70, Williams 49, Gehrig 61, Foxx 85
STOLEN BASES:  Pujols 6, Williams 2, Gehrig 9, Foxx 6

BATTING AVERAGE:  Pujols .332, Williams .353, Gehrig .347, Foxx .340
SLUGGING %:  Pujols .628, Williams .642, Gehrig .652, Foxx .658
ON-BASE %: Pujols .419, Williams .486, Gehrig .464, Foxx .440
OPS (ON BASE % PLUS SLUGGING %): Pujols 1.047, Williams 1.128, Gehrig 1.116, Foxx 1.098