Anyone catch Brando and Tillman on the Croom deal?

[ThisTeetsTaken]

Very true most coordinators are some type of qb, rb, db, lb, line coach, but the problem is still that until there is an increase in minority assistants, there can not be an increase in coordinators, and then an increase in minority head coaches.  Think about ten people interview for a coordinator job only two are minorities but eight are not who is more probable to get the job it is simple stats, and until they are improved don't expect much of a change

Gosh, it doesn't seem fair that there aren't more minority assistants.....

[hawgsav1]

There are only 3 black head coaches in college football out of a possible 119 D-I positions.  Turner Gill, Randy SHannon, and Kevin Sumlin are it.  That's 3% of college head coaches.  50% of players are black and 25% of assistant coaches are black.  Also, consider the NFL.  There are large number of black head coaches, and many of them are very successful and very good. 

[HOGLIGULA]

why do people keep saying this?! no one in 3 pages has said anything about making anyone hire anyone.

INTERVIEW MORE MINORITIES.

the whole point is, there are more than 2 black people in the US that are quaiflied to run a college football team. that no one can argue with

Yeah I agree but you can not see the solution.  When the ratio is 9 to 1 non-minority to minority coordinators how do you really expect more minority head coaches to be hired.  You can not start at the top you have to start at the bottom and it will take time, but if the minority assistant coaching pool does not increase then do not expect to see more minority head coaches

[passinghog]

And those coaches should have had a "leg up" in recruiting based on their race, but they failed in that area as well.

Have they really failed at that? Let's check the facts:

K-State has recruited ok under Prince, they were just inconsistent.
Willingham could never recruit: not at Stanford, not at ND, and not at Washington.
Croom was just starting to recruit well at Mississippi State (see this and last year's class).
Who in there right mind wants to go to Starkville, Mississippi, black or white? Its boring, like most of Mississippi is. What exactly is the draw to that town or state?

[songofthesword]

Yeah I agree but you can not see the solution.  When the ratio is 9 to 1 non-minority to minority coordinators how do you really expect more minority head coaches to be hired.  You can not start at the top you have to start at the bottom and it will take time, but if the minority assistant coaching pool does not increase then do not expect to see more minority head coaches

what are you a broken record? 10% of the all cord's are not white. that means that let's say.. there are 240 cordnators... 24 of them are not white.

there should be 5-6 at least... not 2.

the nfl has 32 teams and 6 coaches are black. that's right below 20%.. about what.. 16%

[hawgsav1]

What are school supposed to do, keep losing coaches just because they are black?  K-state didnt win enough games, Washington is pathetic, MSU is not up to SEC snuff.  Thats why those 3 black coaches got fired/resigend.  It is not like school are firing blasck coaches after they go 10-2 or play in BCS games.  They get fired for the same reasons white coaches do. 

NO one has slammed these schools for firing their black head coaches.  They didn't perform, they deserve to be let go.  However, 50% of players are black, 25% of assistants are black, and less than 3% of head coaches are black?  You're telling me that you see nothing wrong with that?

[ThisTeetsTaken]

what are you a broken record? 10% of the all cord's are not white. that means that let's say.. there are 240 cordnators... 24 of them are not white.

there should be 5-6 at least... not 2.

the nfl has 32 teams and 6 coaches are black. that's right below 20%.. about what.. 16%

Why do you think there should be 5-6 ?

[philobeddoe]

I can't help but ask this question.  Why should more minorities be interviewed?  Is it because they are monorities, or because they are good coaches?  Look, I don't know of a school that, when looking for a head coach, would not try to hire the best possible cantidate.  In other words, they are not going to waste their time interviewing cantidates that they do not intend to hire just because they are a minority.  It the best cantidate is black, then you can bet that he will be interviewed and hired just as if he were white.  Black coaches don't gain anything by just being interviewed. 

[passinghog]

Apparently ok, could never and was just starting doesn't cut it.  Nor should it.

The problem with Croom was his OFFENSE. They had some good players, but his scheme was NOT effective. State fans will tell you that personally. He was an offensive guy, but they were terrible on offense. Recruiting is only half the battle.

[hawgsav1]

I can't help but ask this question.  Why should more minorities be interviewed?  Is it because they are monorities, or because they are good coaches?  Look, I don't know of a school that, when looking for a head coach, would not try to hire the best possible cantidate.  In other words, they are not going to waste their time interviewing cantidates that they do not intend to hire just because they are a minority.  It the best cantidate is black, then you can bet that he will be interviewed and hired just as if he were white.  Black coaches don't gain anything by just being interviewed. 

To assume that the college hiring system is completely merit base is false.  Otherwise, how do you explain Houston Nutt being given a pass for his first ten years?  Or Bobby and Terry Bowden getting jobs despite being perennial underachievers?  Or coaches hiring family members to assistant positions?  People get jobs partially due to merits, but also due to connections.  SInce there aren't that many black coaches with connections or established black coaches, they're going to have a harder time getting jobs.  That's why you should interview them and give them a chance.  It goes not only for black coaches, but for other coaches from smalle rprograms who haven't always been in BCS programs in forever.  A number of the best modern coaches came from coordinator positions or small school coaches (Jim Tressel Youngstown State, Bob Stoops, DC at Florida, etc.)

[HOGLIGULA]

what are you a broken record? 10% of the all cord's are not white. that means that let's say.. there are 240 cordnators... 24 of them are not white.

there should be 5-6 at least... not 2.

the nfl has 32 teams and 6 coaches are black. that's right below 20%.. about what.. 16%

Alright let me simplify it 90% of all coordinators are non-minorities, 10% are you  get a 9 to 1 ratio.  Now go get a piece of paper and make ten pieces and mark one with  an X then put them in a bowl and shake and draw and see how  many times it takes to get the marked piece of paper, after every draw replace the drawn piece check the results.  It is that simple do not expect something that does not happen statistically.  You seem to think I am against minority coaches which is ridiculous. My point is simply until there is an increase in the number of minority assistants do not expect a different result than you are currently seeing.  More minority candidates increases interviews and chances for minority head coaches.  I do agree minority candidates for HC jobs should be interviewed, but without an increase in their numbers do not expect change

[HamHands]

How many black coaches have been giving chances? The number is very small. Not enough for a fair sample. More black coaches should be giving chances. White coaches fail all the time. Maybe those white coaches need to F'IN do better.

Well, I guess schools should have to interview a hispanic candidate too to be fair. What about the asians. I don't know of one asian head coach.

[hawgsav1]

Well, I guess schools should have to interview a hispanic candidate too to be fair. What about the asians. I don't know of one asian head coach.

Asians and Latinos qualify under minorities. 

[passinghog]

Black coaches don't gain anything by just being interviewed. 

You're dead wrong on this. All assistant coaches, not just black coaches, gain a lot by being interviewed. Mike Tomlin would NOT have been on the Steelers radar had he not been interviewed.

[songofthesword]

i'm just dying to get shn chi kao as the next arkansas head coach.

[HamHands]

How many black coaches have been giving chances? The number is very small. Not enough for a fair sample. More black coaches should be giving chances. White coaches fail all the time. Maybe those white coaches need to F'IN do better.

Yea, they need to F'IN do better or fire their ass. If you lose, you are out. It is the name of the game. I don't hear any of them bitching about being fired because they are white.

[hawgsav1]

But that's NEVER the topic.  It's ALWAYS a BLACK issue.

Of course it's not.  How many asians do you see playing football?  How many latinos?  Nearly 50% of football players are black.  Only 25% are assistants, and less than 3% are head coaches.  That's why it's an issue.  Anyone who tries to say that the college hiring process does not reward nepotism is in denial. 

[HOGLIGULA]

Of course it's not.  How many asians do you see playing football?  How many latinos?  Nearly 50% of football players are black.  Only 25% are assistants, and less than 3% are head coaches.  That's why it's an issue.  Anyone who tries to say that the college hiring process does not reward nepotism is in denial. 

Hawgsav just go ahead and jump on the bomb!  Your numbers show the problem, not enough candidates

[philobeddoe]

To assume that the college hiring system is completely merit base is false.  Otherwise, how do you explain Houston Nutt being given a pass for his first ten years?  Or Bobby and Terry Bowden getting jobs despite being perennial underachievers?  Or coaches hiring family members to assistant positions?  People get jobs partially due to merits, but also due to connections.  SInce there aren't that many black coaches with connections or established black coaches, they're going to have a harder time getting jobs.  That's why you should interview them and give them a chance.  It goes not only for black coaches, but for other coaches from smalle rprograms who haven't always been in BCS programs in forever.  A number of the best modern coaches came from coordinator positions or small school coaches (Jim Tressel Youngstown State, Bob Stoops, DC at Florida, etc.)

I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that a school looking for a head coach would not attempt to interview and hire a black head coach if he were the best cantidate. 

[passinghog]

Yea, they need to F'IN do better or fire their ass. If you lose, you are out. It is the name of the game. I don't hear any of them bitching about being fired because they are white.

Please show a quote in which they are bitching about being fired because they are black.
READ more, post LESS. This thread is about coaches getting HIRED, not fired.

[hawgsav1]

Nearly 50% of football players are black?  Talk about denial.

I'm going by statistics I got from Terry Bowden on Yahoo.  I couldn't find an exact number or a better statistics source but if you can, I'd like to get an exact number.  However, even if they have a higher number, that helps make my point.  People who don't have football playing experience don't go into coaching (or rarely do), so why is it you don't see more minority coaches at any level?

[passinghog]

you think the school presidents and big money donors dont have that type of influence?

[philobeddoe]

Nearly 50% of football players are black?  Talk about denial.

Does that mean that all of them try to be coaches when they graduate?  Just because over half the players are black doesn't mean that over half the coaches should be black. 

[hawgsav1]

I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that a school looking for a head coach would not attempt to interview and hire a black head coach if he were the best cantidate. 

Oh no?  Look at Tennessee.  They didn't even get the best candidate.  They got a 33 year old former college OC who didn't even have full play-calling responsibilities and someone who went 3-13 as an NFL coach.  If I was Tennessee, the people on my short list would have been Brian Kelly, Chris Petersen, Turner Gill, and Charlie Strong.  They have accomplished something on any level.  Also, look at our hire in 1998.  We didn't hire the best man for the job.  Orville Henry was even disappointed in our hiring.  So to say that AD's always try to pick the 'best man for the job' is almost ludicrous. 

[passinghog]

Does that mean that all of them try to be coaches when they graduate?  Just because over half the players are black doesn't mean that over half the coaches should be black. 

The majority of them, at least at Arkansas, do major in kinesiology or some sort of coaching related field.

[philobeddoe]

you think the school presidents and big money donors dont have that type of influence?

I'm not saying that at all.  Look at Arkansas, for example.  We went after the best coach available last year.  I would have been pissed if the best available coach was black and we didn't go after him.

[philobeddoe]

The majority of them, at least at Arkansas, do major in kinesiology or some sort of coaching related field.

O.K.  Does that mean that all of them turn out to be good coaches?

[philobeddoe]

Oh no?  Look at Tennessee.  They didn't even get the best candidate.  They got a 33 year old former college OC who didn't even have full play-calling responsibilities and someone who went 3-13 as an NFL coach.  If I was Tennessee, the people on my short list would have been Brian Kelly, Chris Petersen, Turner Gill, and Charlie Strong.  They have accomplished something on any level.  Also, look at our hire in 1998.  We didn't hire the best man for the job.  Orville Henry was even disappointed in our hiring.  So to say that AD's always try to pick the 'best man for the job' is almost ludicrous. 

The "powers that be" at Tennessee hired who they thought was the best cantidate.  I personally don't think it was a good hire, but they do.

[passinghog]

O.K.  Does that mean that all of them turn out to be good coaches?

If it's about winning championships, then the majority of all coaching hires turn out to be bad. Look at all the recycled coaches that are mediocre.

[WMHawgfan]

There are two reasons we didn't hire Strong.
1. BP fell in our lap
2. We had to hire someone with a track record as a head coach.

I would have taken anybody over Nutt but you don't just run off a coach coming off back to back winning seasons(i know it had little to do with Nutt)and replace him with someone with no proven track record.

Any BCS school that hires an assistant or coordinator as its head coach is taking a risk. Sometimes it pays off(Oklahoma)and sometimes it doesn't (Ole Miss-Orgeron)

[hawgsav1]

Does that mean that all of them try to be coaches when they graduate?  Just because over half the players are black doesn't mean that over half the coaches should be black. 

Who said that all of them try to be coaches?  There are 9 coaching jobs available on a staff.  So let's say only 20% of football players try to become coaches post graduation, are you saying that only 25% of black coaches are good enough to become assistants, while 75% of white kids are good enough to become assistants?  It's not as if people are complaining over a small discrepancy of up to 10%.  THis is a MASSIVE disparity. 

[philobeddoe]

There are two reasons we didn't hire Strong.
1. BP fell in our lap
2. We had to hire someone with a track record as a head coach.

I would have taken anybody over Nutt but you don't just run off a coach coming off back to back winning seasons(i know it had little to do with Nutt)and replace him with someone with no proven track record.

Any BCS school that hires an assistant or coordinator as its head coach is taking a risk. Sometimes it pays off(Oklahoma)and sometimes it doesn't (Ole Miss-Orgeron)

Exactly.

[passinghog]

There are two reasons we didn't hire Strong.
1. BP fell in our lap
2. We had to hire someone with a track record as a head coach.

I would have taken anybody over Nutt but you don't just run off a coach coming off back to back winning seasons(i know it had little to do with Nutt)and replace him with someone with no proven track record.

Any BCS school that hires an assistant or coordinator as its head coach is taking a risk. Sometimes it pays off(Oklahoma)and sometimes it doesn't (Ole Miss-Orgeron)

Arkansas not hiring Charlie Strong is not at issue here. We took our time and went through the interviewing process.

[hawgsav1]

To my knowledge there are a great many minority coaches.  Let me ask you this...Out of all the black players in Arkansas history that received their degree's, how many pursued a coaching career and of those, how many were actually successful?

You assume playing the game qualifies one to coach.  Bad assumption.

I never said playing the game qualifies one to be a coach.  My assumption was that to be a good coach, in general you have to had played the game along with other qualifications.  Keep in mind, I"m not accusing our current administration of being racist, as they did try to pursue Strong.  Arkansas is a completely different situation.  We looked around a lot and looked long and hard for the best candidate until BP fell into our laps.  Not a single person is complaining about the way we went about our hire. 

[philobeddoe]

are you saying that only 25% of black coaches are good enough to become assistants, while 75% of white kids are good enough to become assistants?   

I'm not saying it,  statistics are. 

[HOGLIGULA]

alright, the simple problem is that there are not enough minority coaches at any level.  How do you fix that problem  to attract more minority assistants? With a larger pool of minorities to draw from it is easier for more minorities to become coordinators and head coaches

[The Hog]

Brando?  You are wasting your time.

[passinghog]

KINESIOLOGY IS A COACHING RELATED FIELD?

Actually it is. Have you been to college? Kinesiology is in the college of education. So, by simple analysis, if one wanted to go to school and be a coach, you'd have to get your degree in kinesiology with an emphasis on K-12 education. You have to be a teacher to be a coach in high school.

[philobeddoe]

I give up.   

[passinghog]

alright, the simple problem is that there are not enough minority coaches at any level.  How do you fix that problem  to attract more minority assistants? With a larger pool of minorities to draw from it is easier for more minorities to become coordinators and head coaches

you've been spot on the entire time. You start at the bottom and let it work its way up.
In this case, the bottom = getting more minority assistant coaches and GAs.

[hawgsav1]

The "powers that be" at Tennessee hired who they thought was the best cantidate.  I personally don't think it was a good hire, but they do.

Again, Tennessee is only one example.  There are 119 schools out there.  Look at the quality minority assistants that are out there today:
1. Charlie Strong-Florida
2. DeWayne Walker-UCLA
3. Michael Haywood-ND
4. Mike Locksley-Illinois
etc.

You're telling me that none of these guys is fit to coach some small FBS school or that they don't deserve an interview?  It's one thing if a school reaches out and they decline the interview.  But it's also silly to assume that if schools are reaching out that they will decline all their interviews to stay at their current coordinator positions. 

[Ex-Trumpet]

alright, the simple problem is that there are not enough minority coaches at any level.  How do you fix that problem  to attract more minority assistants? With a larger pool of minorities to draw from it is easier for more minorities to become coordinators and head coaches

So, are you saying that head coaches should hire their assistants based on their race?

[HOGLIGULA]

So, are you saying that head coaches should hire their assistants based on their race?

Where was that ever stated? 

[passinghog]

Kinesiology is the study of body movement.  In other words...today's Underwater Basket Weaving for the mentally challenged.

I know what Kinesiology is, simpleton. I was a Kinesiology major at Arkansas, so I probably know more about this than you do...just maybe.
We can what you say about this or we can take what I say about this.
But just because I was a kinesiology major at Arkansas doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about and you do...or maybe it does. hmmm 

[philobeddoe]

Again, Tennessee is only one example.  There are 119 schools out there.  Look at the quality minority assistants that are out there today:
1. Charlie Strong-Florida
2. DeWayne Walker-UCLA
3. Michael Haywood-ND
4. Mike Locksley-Illinois
etc.

You're telling me that none of these guys is fit to coach some small FBS school or that they don't deserve an interview?  It's one thing if a school reaches out and they decline the interview.  But it's also silly to assume that if schools are reaching out that they will decline all their interviews to stay at their current coordinator positions. 

I'm sure all four of these guys are fine coaches.  How do you know that all of these guys have not had chances to be head coaches?

[philobeddoe]

I know what Kinesiology is, simpleton. I was a Kinesiology major at Arkansas, so I probably know more about this than you do...just maybe.
We can what you say about this or we can take what I say about this.
But just because I was a kinesiology major at Arkansas doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about and you do...or maybe it does. hmmm 

huh???

[HOGLIGULA]

Kinesiology is the study of body movement.  In other words...today's Underwater Basket Weaving for the mentally challenged.

Not really that still belongs to Industrial technology and arts and science majors neither of the two I have any clue exactly what they are.

[passinghog]

LMAO!  I rest my case.

So many posts, so little knowledge.

http://kins.uark.edu/KINS_P-12_program_plan.pdf

You can major in kinesiology which is in the school of education, concentrate on k-12 education, graduate. Then you can either get your masters in teaching or you can work your connections and try to get lucky and latch on somewhere.

read more, post less.

[hawgsav1]

I'm sure all four of these guys are fine coaches.  How do you know that all of these guys have not had chances to be head coaches?

I was only giving examples of qualified assistants.  Maybe they have and maybe they turned down the position or declined to interview.  However, I think we can say that an equal percentage of assistants (regardless of race) are qualified to be HC's, whether it be 10% or 20% or whatever.  If these candidates are being interviewed or given opportunities to interview, the law of averages would catch up and we would start to see more minority head coaches.  There are 119 head coaching jobs in the FBS, and roughly 1071 assistant positions (going by 9 assistants per school).  Assuming an equal percentage of black folks are as qualified as the number of white folks, why is there such a dearth of black folks in coaching positions if they are being given a fair shot?

["Pickled" Pig's Pete]

Oh no?  Look at Tennessee.  They didn't even get the best candidate.  They got a 33 year old former college OC who didn't even have full play-calling responsibilities and someone who went 3-13 as an NFL coach.  If I was Tennessee, the people on my short list would have been Brian Kelly, Chris Petersen, Turner Gill, and Charlie Strong.  They have accomplished something on any level.  Also, look at our hire in 1998.  We didn't hire the best man for the job.  Orville Henry was even disappointed in our hiring.  So to say that AD's always try to pick the 'best man for the job' is almost ludicrous. 

But see, you are not Tennessee - what you would do is irrelevant.

Tennessee hired the man they wanted.  You say they didn't even get the best candidate, but that's your opinion.  Someone, somewhere within the Tennessee athletic department and/or major boosters believe Kiffin is the man that will get them back to where they want to be.

Yes, AD's try to pick the best man for the job, but it's not cut and dried.  AD's have to make decisions based on things that a lot of people don't even consider.  Who we as armchair quarterbacks think are the best candidates might have something that's undesirable to an AD and the boosters who pay the bills.

Your point on Nutt is dead on.  We didn't get the best candidate for the job, we got the guy who marketed himself better than the other candidates.  As much as I despise what Nutt did to this program, we should really be upset at those who made the decision to hire him in the first place.