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If Stan Heath is such a sorry coach....

Started by NavyHog, July 09, 2006, 12:09:25 am

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williamsB

I would not sugest any kid sign up to play at Arkansas until Broyles gets legit head coaches

larrylegend33

that kent state team was the same team that made it far the year before and had every starter back.  They lost some games early that year with stans new offense and threatened to quit if they didnt go back to old offense.  And they did go back to it

 

williamsB

Kodi Augustus better be glad he did not have to play for Heath

oldbear

I am definitely not a Stan Heath basher.  He seems to be a great guy, who represents the state and the school well.  He seems to be bringing in recruits that can make the program better.  Kids are graduating, which has never happened before. 

What I don't get is that everyone talks about how we need shooters on this team.  And no, we don't seem to hit a great percentage of threes or free throws.  However, to me it seems that the fundamental thing that has been lacking and causing us to lose several close games is something wrong with the perimeter defense.  It seems that almost every team we play hits a season high in three pointers.  Unfortunately, I do not know enough basketball to provide an answer to my own question, but to me if we are able to shut down, or even lower, the opposition's three point shooters, we win several more games, including the Bucknell team. 

It cannot be that we just keep playing teams that get hot at the right time.  I always tell my young teams that I coach that the other team getting hot is my team not playing enough defense.

silvertip

Quote from: Fresh Legs on July 10, 2006, 06:06:12 pm
Quote from: silvertip on July 10, 2006, 05:14:54 pm
Quote from: SultanofSwine on July 10, 2006, 11:52:10 am
Fresh, you are right most of the real issues that look to be BIG problems are not things found in the stats, atleast not easily. However they are blatantly obvious to anyone watching the games. Last season, I got into a pretty good discussion with my folks about those very things and they took Stan's side and I said fine, these are my points, watch the next game with them in mind and then tell me I am wrong. Before half-time they both agreed with my issues and I didn't say a word during the half.

The game plans are alway reactionary rather than being designed to maximize the potential of our players and plans seem to change so much that there is seldom any continuity to our play thus the streaky play both during the games and over the past few seasons. Until this staff decides what the identity of this team is going to be I don't expect much improvement. Last years team was atleast 6 wins short of where they should have been and regardless of whether or not the win-loss coloumn looked better the team lacked a lot achieving what they were cappable of and that is disappointing.

It is just this kind of ridiculous exaggeration that defeats your arguements:

"Last year's team was at least 6 wins short of where they should have been..."

Oh yeah, NOW I see. So intead of 22-10, we SHOULD HAVE been AT LEAST 28-4. Because, now really, UConn, Maryland, Florida, Alabama, LSU---those poor teams really sucked & had no business beating us. NOW, I understand, thanks.

He didn't say they had no business beating us.  He said we should have beat them.

We should have won games @ Kentucky, @ Bama, @ Ole Miss, LSU (home), @ Mississippi State, and Bucknell.  That's 6 right there Silvertip.

We blew an 18 point lead at Lexington.  13 point lead was blown against Bama.  Ole Miss was terrible as was State.  Bucknell had three scholarships.  And we went on that horrible drought against LSU.  What was it...6 points in 18 minutes?  That'll throw a kink in points per shot calculation.

That's not exactly unrealistic.  I'll let him make his argument but do you think we should have lost any of those games?  I don't.  I'm not going to be upset because we didn't win 28 but Sultan has some validity to his point.

We were 3-5 in SEC road games last season. And you say we should have been 7-1 in SEC road games. In basketball! That is ridiculous. Year after year, NCAA BB teams win about 72% of home games. The SEC is no different. That is basketball---expecting to go 7-1 on the road in the SEC is the kind of stupid expectation that leads to constant whining over losses. Get real & give your opponents credit.

rules

He is a good recruiter, but a horrible coach... In 2005 we played nobody - we beat nobody and even worse we lost to the nobodies... He did improve in 2006, but Brewer is gone now - bring back NOLAN!!!!

:-* :razorback:

silvertip

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on July 10, 2006, 06:48:17 pm
Quote from: Fresh Legs on July 10, 2006, 06:01:02 pm
Quote from: silvertip on July 10, 2006, 05:06:09 pm
Quote from: Yo Huckleberry on July 09, 2006, 06:35:30 pm
We'll have to agree to disagree about the Kent St. story because all that was ever publicized around here was my version.

All I've ever read, more than once, is just what HoggyBear said. The Kent State success story was on account of the player's dropping their resistence to Stan's style, & getting with his program. Don't know where you got your re-write of history.

He clearly said the Ohio papers.  What part of that was hard to understand?

We of course discussed all this on this and previous boards years ago.  Waste of time to re-educate people who won't bother to do the work.

Yeah, BP, I remember about halfway thru last BB season when you tried to re-educate us all that Stan's teams hadn't really been improving every year. It was all just a matter of the schedule getting weaker every year.

Of course, you ended that analysis with the '05 season, since it was obvious that the Hawgs were winning more in '06 against a considerably harder schedule.

You're right. I wasn't willing to "do the work" to try to make sense of that nonsense. Fact is, Stan's teams have improved every year, and I'm not going to "do the work" that some of you labor over constantly to try to "prove" it isn't happening.

SultanofSwine

Silvertip, you completely ignored specific games that Fresh mentioned where we had big leads and lost. Nobody here has mentioned the historical percentages about winning and losing in the SEC and frankly we don't care, we're talking about this team and the games they SHOULD have won. You can expect to be a loser, that's your choice, the rest of us are tired of it especially when in games where it shouldn't happen.

werehog

Oh my gawd. How can so many be so blind, blind, blind to Stan's shortcomings?

silvertip

Quote from: SultanofSwine on July 12, 2006, 08:57:44 am
Silvertip, you completely ignored specific games that Fresh mentioned where we had big leads and lost. Nobody here has mentioned the historical percentages about winning and losing in the SEC and frankly we don't care, we're talking about this team and the games they SHOULD have won. You can expect to be a loser, that's your choice, the rest of us are tired of it especially when in games where it shouldn't happen.

No, I didn't completely ignore those games. Four of the games Fresh THINKS we should have won were ROAD GAMES. I specifically addressed the issue that had we won those 4 ROAD GAMES, then our ROAD record in the SEC would have been 7-1. And to expect that just shows ignorance of college basketball.

NOBODY went 7-1 on the ROAD in the SEC last year. Not National Champ Florida, nor SEC Champ & Final Four team LSU. I am not at all interested in going back over every loss in a season & whining that we SHOULD HAVE won every one of them. It's not gonna happen, and it just shows ignorance of NCAA BB to whine about it.

When Kentucky won the nat'l title in '98, they came from way behind vs DUKE earlier in the NCAAT. No doubt, there were Duke fans of the same ilk as you & FreshLegs who were whining that there was NO WAY that Coach K should have blown that huge lead vs a less talented team!! Fans that are too ignorant to realize that there are many games like that every damn year, both regular season & post-season.

So, I'm not at all impressed with you people whining that there was NO WAY that Hawgs should have lost to Bucknell. It happens every NCAAT. Just like Bucknell did it to Kansas the year before. Just like Indiana State did it to the Hawgs in Sidney's senior year. You can stomp your feet & hold your breath 'til you turn blue, but the reality of the game remains the same.

pignatious

4 years is long enough at this program to have gotten to a point where we can win a first round game in the NCAA tournament. If progress is being made, it is being made at a snail's pace. Going to the games over this period has been an excruciatingly painful experience. Much like the end of Nolan's days, except at least there seemed to be some kind of underlying defensive philosophy present with Nolan.

I was sucked in to think that improvements were made at the end of the year, and lessons learned and went to Dallas thinking we would do very well. Especially, with the fan following and history there. I then watched a coach who had not a clue about strategy, team chemistry, fundamentals, or much of anything play into the hands of a team they could have easily beat with a pressing defense and an up-tempo game. Then to hear him say he was saving the team's legs for the next game, wow... I've moved on from my distaste of Heath's coaching however. Apparently, he suits the needs of the U of A at this point. The real problem lies with the Athletic Department and those boosters and supporters who feel that losing and mediocrity are acceptable. See football.
Freedom is never free.

HogHeathen

Quote from: silvertip on July 12, 2006, 06:55:49 pm
Quote from: SultanofSwine on July 12, 2006, 08:57:44 am
Silvertip, you completely ignored specific games that Fresh mentioned where we had big leads and lost. Nobody here has mentioned the historical percentages about winning and losing in the SEC and frankly we don't care, we're talking about this team and the games they SHOULD have won. You can expect to be a loser, that's your choice, the rest of us are tired of it especially when in games where it shouldn't happen.

No, I didn't completely ignore those games. Four of the games Fresh THINKS we should have won were ROAD GAMES. I specifically addressed the issue that had we won those 4 ROAD GAMES, then our ROAD record in the SEC would have been 7-1. And to expect that just shows ignorance of college basketball.

NOBODY went 7-1 on the ROAD in the SEC last year. Not National Champ Florida, nor SEC Champ & Final Four team LSU. I am not at all interested in going back over every loss in a season & whining that we SHOULD HAVE won every one of them. It's not gonna happen, and it just shows ignorance of NCAA BB to whine about it.

When Kentucky won the nat'l title in '98, they came from way behind vs DUKE earlier in the NCAAT. No doubt, there were Duke fans of the same ilk as you & FreshLegs who were whining that there was NO WAY that Coach K should have blown that huge lead vs a less talented team!! Fans that are too ignorant to realize that there are many games like that every damn year, both regular season & post-season.

So, I'm not at all impressed with you people whining that there was NO WAY that Hawgs should have lost to Bucknell. It happens every NCAAT. Just like Bucknell did it to Kansas the year before. Just like Indiana State did it to the Hawgs in Sidney's senior year. You can stomp your feet & hold your breath 'til you turn blue, but the reality of the game remains the same.


I've read the entire thread up to this post by Silver, and I'm going to have to agree with Silver and Navy on this one.  Too much whining and the FACT remains the same...The record keeps improving. 

dana caldwell

"Just like Indiana State did it to the Hawgs in Sidney's senior year. You can stomp your feet & hold your breath 'til you turn blue, but the reality of the game remains the same."

whoa, silvertip! surely not even you draws a parallel between bucknell of last season and indiana state of 1979, that bunch that had that bird fellow. surely?

as for your last sentence, i agree. quit stompin' and changing colors bc that's not going to change the facts of a coach over his head or the minds of  most fans -- and certainly regional and national observers -- who easily recognize that and have for four years now.

 

Flatfoot

Quote from: Fresh Legs on July 09, 2006, 09:37:40 pm
Hey Navyhog....

-Explain to me why we only scored 19 points in the first half against Texas Pan-American
-Blew 18 point lead at Kentucky
-Loss to a pitiful Ole Miss team when they had nothing to play for
-Loss to Mississippi State who was pathetic
-Blown double digit lead at Alabama
-Loss to Bucknell in YEAR FOUR.  The reason we lost was well beyond miss free throws.  We were 15 out of 24 that game.  If we shot 75%, we would have still lost by a point.  The reason we lost was because we played there game and employed the "Fresh Legs" strategy.  He pulled out a gameplan from Dale...you know the ol' not to lose gameplan.  You know what happened.

My criticism of Heath is over his four years here.  When evaluating a coach you can't just latch on to one season whether it be good or bad.  Here are the problems we've seen:
-consistent poor performances on the road
-lack of interior defense other than a lot of shot blocks by Hill.  Townes will get backed down any day of the week because he's just worried about getting his 15 points and going back to the dorm
-consistently outrebounded or a push with most teams when we have a large front line and big athletic guards
-no pure shooter
-no true point guard
-no urgency to recruit either of the two aforementioned positions
-Dale Nutt type of assistants until he hired Hipsher
-Plays favorites (Dontell and Olu)
-has given one sideline buttchewing in four years

Heath has done some positives but its appears to me you're looking for reasons as to why people criticize him so I gave you mine.  If you want a list of the good things, I'll be happy to give those to you.

I want you to explain to me how we're supposed to be any better next year.  Not one person has told me how were replacing 35 ppg.  Who's taking the clutch shot? 


I just have one thing to say about Heath's coaching ability and I will borrow the term from my friend. 

"FRESH LEGGS!"

Everything else that I could list on here about Heath's total lack of coaching ability can't compare.
Thank God for Hogville.  I get my Hog Therapy here everyday.

MJ2

As the great philosopher Nolan Richardson once said "even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes".  Stan found his that year at Kent.