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Poll

Which method of building the football program best serves Arkansas?

Cheat like SMU and Ole Miss
- 14 (6.2%)
Hire and fire coaches every two years until we hit "The Next Big Thing"
- 7 (3.1%)
Build with a long term plan that may not come to fruition for 8-10 years
- 149 (65.6%)
Break the bank and hire Urban or Nick.  Pay them ANY amount of money to get them here.
- 57 (25.1%)

Total Members Voted: 226


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Author Topic: Because it's summer and we keep having the same stupid conversation, a poll...  (Read 3761 times)

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BigE_23

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If you can't get everything you prioritize, meaning there are some traits that must be present, and get the best you can get in all other areas.

The notion that there are big time programs that can get whatever and whoever they need, and then there is Arkansas that must take what is left over, is a fairly new one.  I think it arose during the Houston Nutt saga, with his defenders repeating over and over that top coaches don't want to come here and he was as good as we could get.  Prior to that I never heard anyone claim that Arkansas is a second rate program and that we need to just get used to being settlers.

The crazy thing is that it was proven wrong when Nutt was finally let go, and yet here we are less than a decade later and it's as if none of that ever happened.

Although it appears that it's not working out with him, even the hiring of CBB is proof that Arkansas is an appealing job for experienced P5 coaches.

It says something about our program that a 3-time defending B10 Champ was willing to jump ship to come here. Of course $$$ had something to do with it, and he knew we had an AD dumb enough to give it to him...but still.
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EastexHawg

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Although it appears that it's not working out with him, even the hiring of CBB is proof that Arkansas is an appealing job for experienced P5 coaches.

It says something about our program that a 3-time defending B10 Champ was willing to jump ship to come here. Of course $$$ had something to do with it, and he knew we had an AD dumb enough to give it to him...but still.

Exactly.  The same applies for when Petrino was hired.  The narrative is always that an NFL coach with a 41-9 career record, including a BCS bowl win, from his college days "fell into our laps", but it's not like Arkansas was the only program that hired a coach before the 2008 season.  Among others, Baylor, Georgia Tech, Michigan, Ole Miss, Nebraska, Texas A&M, UCLA, Washington State, and West Virginia also hired new head coaches.

Danny Ford had won a national championship before coming to Arkansas.  Lou Holtz was also an NFL coach and had been a hot commodity as a college coach before going to the Jets.  Broyles himself was one of the bright lights as a prospective head coach from his days on Bobby Dodd's staff at Georgia Tech and had in fact just been named the head coach at Missouri a year before Barnhill called him.  I don't think anyone thought we were "settling" when we got Otis Douglas or Bowden Wyatt, either.

We have been able to hire big time coaches throughout our history.  That said, the key isn't necessarily to hire a name, but to hire a coach who can win at Arkansas given our unique set of circumstances...not all of which, by the way, are negative.  Broyles said he had coveted the Arkansas job for years, based on what he had seen during his stint as an assistant at Baylor.

"Poor little ol' us" is a relatively new phenomenon.
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LZH

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we did not get a guy, with all the traits you listed, after Nutt left.

I've heard for a long time that AR is not a place that top coach yern to go to AFTER they are top coaches. Holtz, when he was hired, was fresh off being canned after less than a season in the NFL, and had never been HC at a major football power school. Hatfield? He was a home state hero who had been successful at Airforce, not a hotbed of football. Crowe, well lets move one. Ford - was dragged out of retirement, but had a NC ring. HDN - had some modest success at FCS Murray St, and one FBS season at fledgling Boise St. Petrino snuck out of a disaster in ATL, after sneaking out on Louisville a year before. BB was- BY FAR- the most successful, established coach to be hired as HC here since JFB, and his credentials prior to being hired were aguably better, at that point in his career, than was even JFB when he was hired here.

OJT!...OJT!...OJT!
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hoghearted

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So we have went from a 5 year plan, to 6 or 7 year rebuild, to 8 to 10 years? Lol......why not just make him coach for life?
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EastexHawg

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we did not get a guy, with all the traits you listed, after Nutt left.

Whether he had all the traits or not, and whether he deserved to be fired or not, the one thing he did was prove that all the "we won't be able to get a coach who can do any better than Nutt" stuff was a bunch of BS.  That happened in 2008-2011.  Now, here we are less than a decade later, and the same chorus is being repeated.  Why?

And please, don't try to claim that Nutt did in fact accomplish as much or more than his successor.  He didn't.  He made it to the SECCG one time, that being when Alabama...who strummed his team like a banjo...was on probation and ineligible.  In his "glory" year, 2006, he lost four games.  He never made it to a BCS level bowl game, and he never lost three or fewer games in a season...much less two.  He never finished in the top ten, much less the top five.
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Piggfoot

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Those Fans who believe if Saban now at Alabama or Urban now at Ohio State were to come to Arkansas and immediately start playing for the NC are delusional.
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Hogs-n-Roses

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we did not get a guy, with all the traits you listed, after Nutt left.

I've heard for a long time that AR is not a place that top coach yern to go to AFTER they are top coaches. Holtz, when he was hired, was fresh off being canned after less than a season in the NFL, and had never been HC at a major football power school. Hatfield? He was a home state hero who had been successful at Airforce, not a hotbed of football. Crowe, well lets move one. Ford - was dragged out of retirement, but had a NC ring. HDN - had some modest success at FCS Murray St, and one FBS season at fledgling Boise St. Petrino snuck out of a disaster in ATL, after sneaking out on Louisville a year before. BB was- BY FAR- the most successful, established coach to be hired as HC here since JFB, and his credentials prior to being hired were aguably better, at that point in his career, than was even JFB when he was hired here.
These are a great set of numbers that need to be considered when/if we make our next football moves. They are painful to look at but are given with humility. Until we take inventory of where we've been and mistakes we've made, we can't get to that elusive next level.

When Nick Saban went from Michigan state to LSU he would only make the move if certain things happened. New power structure(PTB), different AD, boosters power put in check....I believe Saban as well as others,Pete Carroll,Jimmy Johnson,Can't remember Florida's AD, name. TERRY DON PHILLIPS, are just a few names of people we could consult with in getting a new formula to select a new AD,HC, Chancellor(PTB).

Personally I believe its gonna take some creative or out of the box thinking to get it done. Just off the top of my head, Open the checkbook (like in the above poll) Throw all the money  and give him power also, make him AD too.These guys are all about power so give the University to one of them.Like one of the posters above, maybe this will be what it takes to change recruiting.

I believe that it boils down to money.The winners pay the top and get the top. We pay our HC and staff together bout half what the big boys pay their HC. We go cheap. We're getting what we pay for. Very closed minded folks say "we can't afford it", they're happy putting a nice little old football team out there , making some profits and taking the SEC and TV monies and sayin look how good we're doing. While us fans sit here and take halfA$%& results. Do you have any idea what kinda money rolls in from the success Bama gets with these national championships. Its staggering.

I say we can't afford not to try this way.
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hogcard1964

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So we have went from a 5 year plan, to 6 or 7 year rebuild, to 8 to 10 years? Lol......why not just make him coach for life?

It started at "2 to 3 years" and since he's underperformed every year, it's been extended.  I think we're looking at about 14 years now.   ;)
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Hogs-n-Roses

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It started at "2 to 3 years" and since he's underperformed every year, it's been extended.  I think we're looking at about 14 years now.   ;)
So its like 3 2 year passes ? Then the move to 6-8?
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Gonzo

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Last time I checked that dude was nailed to a cross.

That's some funny stuff right there.     Yep, heaven knows (pun intended) hardworking, intelligent, innovative coaches with an eye for talent are right up there with the Messiah and unicorns in their rarity. Nope, nary a one to be found throughout the football world.



Go Hogs!
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hogcard1964

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So its like 3 2 year passes ? Then the move to 6-8?

LOL

I think we've already written off and skipped years 5 through 9 as more of the same BS.  We're looking a solid 10 year rebuild.

...at a minimum.   ;)
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hogsanity

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Whether he had all the traits or not, and whether he deserved to be fired or not, the one thing he did was prove that all the "we won't be able to get a coach who can do any better than Nutt" stuff was a bunch of BS.  That happened in 2008-2011.  Now, here we are less than a decade later, and the same chorus is being repeated.  Why?

And please, don't try to claim that Nutt did in fact accomplish as much or more than his successor.  He didn't.  He made it to the SECCG one time, that being when Alabama...who strummed his team like a banjo...was on probation and ineligible.  In his "glory" year, 2006, he lost four games.  He never made it to a BCS level bowl game, and he never lost three or fewer games in a season...much less two.  He never finished in the top ten, much less the top five.

I said in another thread last week that Nutt and Ford onlyt made the seccg because the west( bama & LSu ) were down or out those years. Same as Hatfield making the cotton bowl, only did so when the swc was dying.

No hc here, since joining the sec, has figured out how to get enough talent to beat the big boys of the league over an entire season.
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Gonzo

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I'd love to know the ages of those in the respective camps. I'm too damn lazy to create a poll but I'd be curious to see a breakdown. If for no other reason, it might stop the pissing into the fan exercise.

Fire Nutt!!!


This is the innerwebz man, ain't no stopping the pissing ;)


Go Hogs!
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Gonzo

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Although it appears that it's not working out with him, even the hiring of CBB is proof that Arkansas is an appealing job for experienced P5 coaches.

It says something about our program that a 3-time defending B10 Champ was willing to jump ship to come here. Of course $$$ had something to do with it, and he knew we had an AD dumb enough to give it to him...but still.

I was pleasantly surprised the Hogs landed a "name" coach from a legit P5 school in BB, but I also think it may have been saying a lot about the situation he left as well as the one he entered.



Go Hogs!
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Hogs-n-Roses

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LOL

I think we've already written off and skipped years 5 through 9 as more of the same BS.  We're looking a solid 10 year rebuild.

...at a minimum.   ;)
Maybe I should have been more clear as to what I think a long term rebuild is.That would be 5 years. No 2 year pass. (lots of wins were left on the field in those years) but OK they were the first 2 years. By the end of year 3 I should have been busting at the seams for year 4 to begin and year 4 should have been outstand. Not full of excuses and what I saw was wins still being left on the field and more excuses. Then year 5 I should have had my swagger restored and thinking every game on that schedule was ours. Not "well its gonna be more like 6-8 years and it was always gonna be n........
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hogcard1964

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Maybe I should have been more clear as to what I think a long term rebuild is.That would be 5 years. No 2 year pass. (lots of wins were left on the field in those years) but OK they were the first 2 years. By the end of year 3 I should have been busting at the seams for year 4 to begin and year 4 should have been outstand. Not full of excuses and what I saw was wins still being left on the field and more excuses. Then year 5 I should have had my swagger restored and thinking every game on that schedule was ours. Not "well its gonna be more like 6-8 years and it was always gonna be n........

Not being facetious in the least, but I really believe this current squad is equipped to win 10 games this year.  Now I'm saying they're definitely capable of it.  Whether he gets them to perform is an altogether different animal.  The offense we know will be killer and if this 3-4 actually works.....  look out.

...as much as I hate to get my hopes up, I'm not joking.
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Hogs-n-Roses

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Not being facetious in the least, but I really believe this current squad is equipped to win 10 games this year.  Now I'm saying they're definitely capable of it.  Whether he gets them to perform is an altogether different animal.  The offense we know will be killer and if this 3-4 actually works.....  look out.

...as much as I hate to get my hopes up, I'm not joking.
I'm hoping you are correct.
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BigE_23

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Not being facetious in the least, but I really believe this current squad is equipped to win 10 games this year.  Now I'm saying they're definitely capable of it.  Whether he gets them to perform is an altogether different animal.  The offense we know will be killer and if this 3-4 actually works.....  look out.

...as much as I hate to get my hopes up, I'm not joking.

We should have been a 9-10 win team the last two seasons!!!! That's what keeps me from getting my hopes up.
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EastexHawg

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Okay, I goofed.  Nutt made it to the SECCG twice, once when Alabama was on probation in 2002 and again in 2006.  Let me correct myself so no one else has to do it.  Regardless, his two "SEC West Champions" lost five games (2002) and four games (2006).  This is not a reflection on the players, because the 2002 team would never have lost to Tennessee and Kentucky without Nutt's stupid "two-headed quarterback" idiocy...and the 2006 team lost games it shouldn't have because of poor coaching and execution as well.

Nutt was a moron, a charlatan, a fake pretending to be a coach, and yet we had people claiming for years that we couldn't do any better.
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bphi11ips

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If you can't get everything you prioritize, meaning there are some traits that must be present, and get the best you can get in all other areas.

The notion that there are big time programs that can get whatever and whoever they need, and then there is Arkansas that must take what is left over, is a fairly new one.  I think it arose during the Houston Nutt saga, with his defenders repeating over and over that top coaches don't want to come here and he was as good as we could get.  Prior to that I never heard anyone claim that Arkansas is a second rate program and that we need to just get used to being settlers.

The crazy thing is that it was proven wrong when Nutt was finally let go, and yet here we are less than a decade later and it's as if none of that ever happened.

I think the reality is somewhere between what we used to think of Arkansas's place in the hierarchy of college football (which was justified) and those who claim we are an also ran that must "settle".  What we must "settle" for, or at least accept, is that we compete in the best division of college football.  That means we can be one of the best 25 teams in the country and still finish 4-4 or worse in the conference. 

What we came to expect of Arkansas from 1959 to 1990 was conference championships and Top 10-15 AP rankings.  Not all of that was the result of inferior competition from 1959 to 1990.  There are a lot of overblown theories expressed here about Arkansas's success during those three decades, and the further and further away we get from them, the more those who didn't experience them believe the myths.  Here is the data:

Between 1959 and 1990, Arkansas won or tied for 10 conference championships, about once every three years.  We finished in the AP Top 15 fourteen times, about once every other year.  Eleven of those were Top 10.  Three were Top 5, and three more were number 6.  We finished 16th another year.   We were used to watching who lost every week to see how many notches we would move up.  We were Sports Illustrated's preseason favorite for number one (when SI was the leading college football publication) once during one of the Holtz years.       

In the 25 years since Arkansas joined the SEC, Arkansas has finished in the Top 10 only once - number 5 in 2011.  We have finished in the Top 15 only three times (including 2011), and we have one 16th and one 17th finish.  So - we went from Top 15 finishes every other year for 30 years to Top 20 finishes once every 5 years.  That is quite a shock to the institutional fanbase memory. 

Is the only difference between 1959-1990 and 1991 to 2017 Arkansas's switch from the SWC to the SEC? Was Arkansas always a mediocre program that benefited for three decades from WAC caliber competition?  To those of us who lived through it, the answer is "no" and "no".

The primary factor in the difference in Arkansas's record between 1959-1990 and 1991 to 2017 is the conference switch, but that is a superficial analysis.  In order to understand why the switch made such a difference, you have to examine the changes that have taken place in college football since 1959 and when those changes took place.

Until 1970, football in the South was not integrated to any degree at all.  Razorbacks fans will remember Jon Richardson as the first African American football player to have a significant role on the field, and that didn't occur until 1970.  Alabama fans will remember when the Tide began fielding black players about the same time.  After 1970, college football became integrated very quickly.  Winning was a primary motivating factor, but the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and social changes in the late 60's was part of the change as well.  Black players like Ike Forte, Jerry Eckwood and Dennis Winston began making big impacts for the Hogs by the mid-70's.  BUT - the game itself was stuck to some extent in the style of football from the 60's, when the speed of the game was more at a white level.  That is not intended as a racist statement by any means.  It is just the way it was.  Arkansas was not at nearly so much of a competitive disadvantage in the 60's  as it is today simply because of demographics.

The 70's were dominated by run oriented offenses that used the read option with multiple backs to create space that could be exploited by the speed of black running backs.  Alabama, Oklahoma and Texas were the best at it.  By the mid-80's, Jimmy Johnson utilized that speed at WR coupled with big, NFL-type pocket passers to create passing lanes.  A sea change came in the mid-80's when Miami defeated OU three straight years, signaling the death of the wishbone in college football for all intent and purpose.  For the last 30 years, college football has been a game dominated at the highest level by passing offenses, or at least by pro-style offenses with a balance between the run and pass.  The dual threat QB and zone reads have begun to take the game back in time a bit, but the thing is - the game has been played since Arkansas joined the SEC at an increasingly greater speed than it was played at before. And as football becomes closer and closer to 7 on 7, speed will become even more important.

Which leads us to why Arkansas has been at a competitive recruiting disadvantage since it joined the SEC.  The recruiting advantage enjoyed by teams located in the Deep South has led to the SEC becoming the juggernaut it is today.  It was a better league than the SWC from 1959-1990, but not to the extent it would be today without the changes in the game itself.  Arkansas simply does not have the African American population base located within reasonable driving distance from campus to compete with the other schools in the SEC West.  And not with most of the schools in the East for that matter. 

Arkansas will never be a school that is able to recruit with the elite teams on a national basis.  It never has been.  We have to mine Dallas, Memphis, Tulsa, Kansas City, St. Louis, etc., and Arkansas, of course, for most of our talent.  Out of state we have to compete with loyalty to other programs.  And let's face it, other than the U of A campus, there are not many African American residents in NWA.  Little Rock and the metro area is the population base for Arkansas's African American population.  There are two things hurting Arkansas in Little Rock at this time.  Most importantly is the decline in public schools in Pulaski County that has killed athletics.  Less obvious, whether some here like to admit it or not, is a changing attitude outside of NWA about where the Razorbacks fit into the fabric of Arkansas itself. 

Finally, while the head coaching job at Arkansas is unquestionably more challenging than it was in 1990 for the reasons stated above, the period since has been punctuated by years of sub-par head coaches when compared to the three guys at the helm from 1959 to 1990.  Crowe was a joke.  Ford didn't have the fire he had when he won a NC at Clemson.  Nutt never should have been hired to begin with, although he was a decent (read that "mediocre") head coach.  Petrino was an offensive genius who screwed up our recruiting royally.  Smiley was worse than Crowe.  The jury is out on Bielema, but thus far there has been a disconnect at times between what he says and what we see on the field.  Maybe that is somewhat due to the recruiting disadvantage.  Some like to say that coaches can't execute, but maybe it's not so much about execution as about the competition's superior athletes.  All the coaching in the world can't make up for the Jimmies and Joes problem. 

So - are we "poor whittle Arkansas"?  No.  Can we have the success Petrino brought?  Maybe.  But we have to realize that Arkansas football is not likely to ever again enjoy the success it did between 1959 and 1990.  And that isn't because we weren't a great program for those 30 years.  The difference today is due to changes in the game and demographics.  Nick Saban would face the same issue if he were the head coach.  Some things you just can't fix.


 
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EastexHawg

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Yes, the game has changed.  We need a coach who not only knows what we need to do, but is smart enough and innovative enough to do it.  And, he has to have enough fire in his belly to demand that it be done.

Petrino's teams stretched the field.  They played the modern game you described and made the opponent defend every square yard of turf on every single play.  Think Mallett to Cobi Hamilton on the final play of the half against LSU in 2010.

What is largely overlooked is that he did, in fact, go out of state to recruit outstanding players who made the difference when combined with his Arkansas recruits.  Knile Davis and Cobi Hamilton were from Texas.  So was Travis Swanson.  Keon Hatcher was from Oklahoma, as was Alvin Bailey.  Kiero Small came from California.  Mallett was at Michigan before the transferred.  Joe Adams was from Arkansas, but he was headed for USC until The Moron moved on.

Even more overlooked is the defensive talent that was mined from other states.  Chris Smith was from North Carolina.  Trey Flowers and Darius Philon were from Alabama.  Deatrich Wise and Taiwan Johnson were from Texas.  That's five defensive linemen who were on par with or better than anyone Bielema, who is allegedly such a superior recruiter, has landed and they were all from out of state.  Strangely enough, the argument could be made that Bielema's defenses got significantly worse when the players Petrino left for him...including Tevin Mitchel and Rohan Gaines, both also from out of state...were gone.

Bielema recruited Martrell Spaight.  Who are the other outstanding defensive players he has brought on board, and how many of them are from outside the state of Arkansas?

When you start looking at the facts, at the specifics, they don't seem to line up with the rhetoric.
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bphi11ips

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Yes, the game has changed.  We need a coach who not only knows what we need to do, but is smart enough and innovative enough to do it.  And, he has to have enough fire in his belly to demand that it be done.

Petrino's teams stretched the field.  They played the modern game you described and made the opponent defend every square yard of turf on every single play.  Think Mallett to Cobi Hamilton on the final play of the half against LSU in 2010.

What is largely overlooked is that he did, in fact, go out of state to recruit outstanding players who made the difference when combined with his Arkansas recruits.  Knile Davis and Cobi Hamilton were from Texas.  So was Travis Swanson.  Keon Hatcher was from Oklahoma, as was Alvin Bailey.  Kiero Small came from California.  Mallett was at Michigan before the transferred.  Joe Adams was from Arkansas, but he was headed for USC until The Moron moved on.

Even more overlooked is the defensive talent that was mined from other states.  Chris Smith was from North Carolina.  Trey Flowers and Darius Philon were from Alabama.  Deatrich Wise and Taiwan Johnson were from Texas.  That's five defensive linemen who were on par with or better than anyone Bielema, who is allegedly such a superior recruiter, has landed and they were all from out of state.  Strangely enough, the argument could be made that Bielema's defenses got significantly worse when the players Petrino left for him...including Tevin Mitchel and Rohan Gaines, both also from out of state...were gone.


Points well-taken.  Thus far, Petrino appears to be far and away the best coach, in terms of on-the-field coaching ability itself, that Arkansas has had since at least Lou Holtz.  Too bad the guy is such a mess otherwise. 
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BigE_23

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Bielema recruited Martrell Spaight.  Who are the other outstanding defensive players he has brought on board, and how many of them are from outside the state of Arkansas?
I agree with the overall essence of your post, and I'm not by any means defending Bielema. However to his credit, and for the sake of argument, he did land Sosa Agim, who wasn't from Arkansas but moved here from out of state, and Ryan Pulley (FL) who is developing into a stud. Other than that the verdict is still out on several of his out of state guys.

Players that are expected to contribute that are from OOS:

De'Andre Coley (FL)
Santos Ramirez (LA)
Henre' Tolliver (LA)
Britto Tutt (GA) - should play this year after knee injury
Briston Guidry (LA) - redshirt freshman
Rnady Ramsey (FL)
Karl Roesler (KY)
Armon Watts (MO)
Dwayne Eugene (LA)
De'Jon Harris (LA)
Alexy Jean-Baptiste (FL) - redshirt freshman
Giovanni LaFrance (LA) - redshirt freshman

Again, not world beaters...but the verdict is still out. The point to which I agree with you - THIS IS YEAR 5, so where is the evidence of what CBB is supposedly building from his superior recruiting and player development?
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MuskogeeHogFan

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We should have been a 9-10 win team the last two seasons!!!! That's what keeps me from getting my hopes up.

Our biggest problem is recruiting and the disadvantage that we experience as it relates to our competition in the West. Just check out the number of draftees and 1st-3rd rounders by the other schools in the West from 2013-2017.
Alabama-1 in every 3.8 signees gets drafted and of those signees 1 in every 5.9 signees is drafted in the 1st through 3rd round.
LSU-1 in every 4.4 gets drafted, 1 in every 7.7 goes in the 1st-3rd rounds.
A&M-1 in every 8.3 gets drafted, 1 in every 12.4 goes in the 1st-3rd rounds.
Auburn-1 in every 10.6 gets drafted, 1 in every 25.7 go in the 1st-3rd rounds.
Miss St-1 in every 11.8 gets drafted, 1 in every 22 go in the 1st-3rd rounds.
Ole Miss-1 in every 13.8 signees gets drafted, 1 in every 25.3 go in the 1st-3rd rounds.

That only leaves Arkansas and while the numbers of kids that get drafted isnít bad, the lack in terms of the number of higher end talent (1st-3rd round draftees) is revealing.
Arkansas-1 in every 8.8 signees gets drafted, 1 in every 61.7 signees goes in the 1st-3rd rounds.

We have talent, just not a lot of higher end talent, big time playmakers.

But even with that factor coming into play we could have had better seasons since 2012.

2012- Never should have lost to La Monroe, Rutgers or Ole Miss. Even under JLS, we should have been 7-5.
2013-Shouldnít have lost to Rutgers, Miss State or LSU. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, been 6-6 in the worst case.
2014-Should not have lost to A&M, really should have beaten Alabama that year, gave Georgia the game through turnovers, should have beaten Miss State and Missouri. 7-6 should have won at least 10 games that season.
2015-Should have beaten Toledo, Texas Tech, A&M and Miss State. This too should have been at least a 10 win season.
2016-Given our lack of a good defensive scheme the only games that I can say that we should have won that we didnít are, Missouri and Va Tech, but an argument could be made for A&M as well just because of all of the big plays that we gave up that handed them the game. So last year probably should have been another 10 win season including the bowl game.

And keep in mind while all of you are hammering the staff, that all of this could have and probably should have been accomplished with less high end talent (by a long shot) than the rest of the Western Division.

Some of the fault for these losses has to belong to the staff, no doubt about that. Had we won 9-10 games each year for the last 3 years I doubt that there would be so much grinching going on but you never know, people might be complaining that Bielema can't get us to 11 wins or challenge for the West. Just keep in mind (as illustrated above) we don't have as much high end talent as everyone else and we have still been pretty close to having better records despite that disadvantage.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 12:34:00 pm by MuskogeeHogFan »
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hogsanity

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Our biggest problem is recruiting and the disadvantage that we experience as it relates to our competition in the West. Just check out the number of draftees and 1st-3rd rounders by the other schools in the West from 2013-2017.
Alabama-1 in every 3.8 signees gets drafted and of those signees 1 in every 5.9 signees is drafted in the 1st through 3rd round.
LSU-1 in every 4.4 gets drafted, 1 in every 7.7 goes in the 1st-3rd rounds.
A&M-1 in every 8.3 gets drafted, 1 in every 12.4 goes in the 1st-3rd rounds.
Auburn-1 in every 10.6 gets drafted, 1 in every 25.7 go in the 1st-3rd rounds.
Miss St-1 in every 11.8 gets drafted, 1 in every 22 go in the 1st-3rd rounds.
Ole Miss-1 in every 13.8 signees gets drafted, 1 in every 25.3 go in the 1st-3rd rounds.

That only leaves Arkansas and while the numbers of kids that get drafted isnít bad, the lack in terms of the number of higher end talent (1st-3rd round draftees) is revealing.
Arkansas-1 in every 8.8 signees gets drafted, 1 in every 61.7 signees goes in the 1st-3rd rounds.

We have talent, just not a lot of higher end talent, big time playmakers.

But even with that factor coming into play we could have had better seasons since 2012.

2012- Never should have lost to La Monroe, Rutgers or Ole Miss. Even under JLS, we should have been 7-5.
2013-Shouldnít have lost to Rutgers, Miss State or LSU. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, been 6-6 in the worst case.
2014-Should not have lost to A&M, really should have beaten Alabama that year, gave Georgia the game through turnovers, should have beaten Miss State and Missouri. 7-6 should have won at least 10 games that season.
2015-Should have beaten Toledo, Texas Tech, A&M and Miss State. This too should have been at least a 10 win season.
2016-Given our lack of a good defensive scheme the only games that I can say that we should have won that we didnít are, Missouri and Va Tech, but an argument could be made for A&M as well just because of all of the big plays that we gave up that handed them the game. So last year probably should have been another 10 win season including the bowl game.

And keep in mind while all of you are hammering the staff, that all of this could have and probably should have been accomplished with less high end talent (by a long shot) than the rest of the Western Division.

Some of the fault for these losses has to belong to the staff, no doubt about that. Had we won 9-10 games each year for the last 3 years I doubt that there would be so much grinching going on but you never know, people might be complaining that Bielema can't get us to 11 wins or challenge for the West. Just keep in mind (as illustrated above) we don't have as much high end talent as everyone else and we have still been pretty close to having better records despite that disadvantage.


Normally we agree on lots of things, but this " should " have won all the games you listed is just not grounded in any thing. I guess I could list game we should not have won, like the last 2 old miss games, but that would not be grounded in anything either, other than it being my opinion. Now, COULD they have won all those games, sure, but to say they SHOULD have is a reach.

The problem is, the depth is just not there to stand up to a sec season. At some point injury forces inferior talent onto the field, or fatigue gets the guys who have to play every darn snap.
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Gonzo

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Points well-taken.  Thus far, Petrino appears to be far and away the best coach, in terms of on-the-field coaching ability itself, that Arkansas has had since at least Lou Holtz.  Too bad the guy is such a mess otherwise. 

A very fair assessment imo.    IF BB doesn't work out, I hope the Hogs can find a similar one, without the baggage.


Go Hogs!
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Deep Shoat

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So we have went from a 5 year plan, to 6 or 7 year rebuild, to 8 to 10 years? Lol......why not just make him coach for life?
Nowhere, other than message boards, has this ever been a 5 yr plan.  The adults who run this thing have known all along that CBB was getting 6 years, minimum.  At the end of 6, if he appears to be on track BASED ON THEIR PREDECIDED CRITERIA, not Hogville's, he will be extended further.  There is no quick fix, unless you want to depend on luck.  Grown ups understand that.
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LR54

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Points well-taken.  Thus far, Petrino appears to be far and away the best coach, in terms of on-the-field coaching ability itself, that Arkansas has had since at least Lou Holtz.  Too bad the guy is such a mess otherwise.

Quick counterpoint.

BP's 2011 4th year offense was #1 in the SEC for yds/gm - 438  and pts/gm - 36.8.

2nd for total yds - 5695.

2015 Dan Enos first year offense?

2nd in the SEC for yds/gm - 465 and pts/gm - 35.9

3rd for total yards - 6051.

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Gonzo

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Quick counterpoint.

BP's 2011 4th year offense was #1 in the SEC for yds/gm - 438  and pts/gm - 36.8.

2nd for total yds - 5695.

2015 Dan Enos first year offense?

2nd in the SEC for yds/gm - 465 and pts/gm - 35.9

3rd for total yards - 6051.




I think bp (the poster) was addressing the HC position, but you make a valid point. Enos seemed to be considered an emerging force at CM prior to being hired by the Hogs. Perhaps he is one of those difference makers. If the current answer isn't the lasting one, I could think of worse options for the next man up.


Go Hogs!
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hogsanity

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Quick counterpoint.

BP's 2011 4th year offense was #1 in the SEC for yds/gm - 438  and pts/gm - 36.8.

2nd for total yds - 5695.

2015 Dan Enos first year offense?

2nd in the SEC for yds/gm - 465 and pts/gm - 35.9

3rd for total yards - 6051.



offense has not been the problem for a long time.
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LRRandy

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Quick counterpoint.

BP's 2011 4th year offense was #1 in the SEC for yds/gm - 438  and pts/gm - 36.8.

2nd for total yds - 5695.

2015 Dan Enos first year offense?

2nd in the SEC for yds/gm - 465 and pts/gm - 35.9

3rd for total yards - 6051.
the defenses were better in 2011. Again, showing the erosion of the power of the sec.
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BigE_23

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Nowhere, other than message boards, has this ever been a 5 yr plan.  The adults who run this thing have known all along that CBB was getting 6 years, minimum.

The issue isn't with whether it was a 5 year plan or he had a 6 year minimum. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you...the issue is with underachieving from year to year. That is the REAL debate, not how many years CBB should get a free pass. Some on this board think we're improving - many think we aren't and that we're underachieving.

At the end of 6, if he appears to be on track BASED ON THEIR PREDECIDED CRITERIA, not Hogville's, he will be extended further.  There is no quick fix, unless you want to depend on luck. Grown ups understand that.

First of all, if we lose 7 or more games in year 5 - either Jeff Long or Bret Bielema are gone. Jeff for the stupid buyout, or Bret and the big money donors come up with a way to pay it. You can try to explain that away, but we've been here before. The PTB will not let us go there again.

Second, I'm not sure how the hell you define a "quick fix" but what has been hashed over and again in this very thread is that, over the past 4 years, we've severely underachieved. Even with all of your excuse making, there's no denying that 2015 should have been at least a 10-win season (that's year 3), and last year should have been at least a 9-win season (year 4). If those seasons go as they should have, this conversation isn't happening, and the program has been somewhat restored in rather quick fashion.

People are murmuring because of CBB's underachieving on the field, not because of missing some hypothetical measuring sticks for a 5,6, 8, or 10-year plan. Anyone with half a brain can see that the past two seasons have been disappointments (Toledo, TTU, 56-3, MIZZOU, and VA TECH...just to give simple examples) and refuse to make excuses for that.

No one is depending on luck. Some of us are just using common sense. Maybe it's hard for you to understand that.
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Deep Shoat

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You obviously have nothing more than an opinion and a keyboard if you believe CBB or Jeff Long are in ANY danger of being gone after this season.

And that's what I and others are trying to tell you.  This is a long term plan and your unhappiness has no bearing on it.  The absolute best thing you can do, today and for the next two seasons, is shut up and support the program, including the coach.  The odds of winning like you want are much higher if CBB stays, for several years.  Because he ain't leaving for at least two more, and THEN the next guy would need some time to get his systems installed.
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LR54

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the defenses were better in 2011. Again, showing the erosion of the power of the sec.

More high-powered SEC offenses in 2015. Try to keep up. Even Indiana with a losing record put up over 500 yds/gm in the B10.   
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LRRandy

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More high-powered SEC offenses in 2015. Try to keep up. Even Indiana with a losing record put up over 500 yds/gm in the B10.
that's the rationalization huh? That must make what Petrino did even more impressive.

Total defense. National Rank
2011
1. Bama
2. LSU
3. S Carolina
5. Georgia
8. Florida
18. Vanderbilt
27. Tenn.
35. Miss St.
47. Arkansas
58. Kentucky
 5 of top 10.  9 in top 50

2016
1. Bama
5. Florida
10. LSU
16. Georgia
28. Auburn
64. Vandy
75. Arkansas
85. Kentucky
90. aTm
3 in top 10. 5 in top 50.
In 2011 #10 defense in sec was 58 in country.
2016 # 10 defense was  90th.
Spin how you want. Defenses in sec are not as good as they used to be. Try to keep up.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 03:43:01 pm by LRRandy »
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Gonzo

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You obviously have nothing more than an opinion and a keyboard


That's 99% of HV or most msg boards, including yourself


Go Hogs!
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LR54

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that's the rationalization huh? That must make what Petrino did even more impressive.

Total defense. National Rank
2011
1. Bama
2. LSU
3. S Carolina
5. Georgia
8. Florida
18. Vanderbilt
27. Tenn.
35. Miss St.
47. Arkansas
58. Kentucky
 5 of top 10.  9 in top 50

2016
1. Bama
5. Florida
10. LSU
16. Georgia
28. Auburn
64. Vandy
75. Arkansas
85. Kentucky
90. aTm
3 in top 10. 5 in top 50.
In 2011 #10 defense in sec was 58 in country.
2016 # 10 defense was  90th.
Spin how you want. Defenses in sec are not as good as they used to be. Try to keep up.

You looked up the wrong year. But you get a gold star for at least lookin'.

In 2015, the SEC had 12 teams in the Top 60 for total defense. #10 defense was 56 in the country.
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Al Boarland

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Not being facetious in the least, but I really believe this current squad is equipped to win 10 games this year.  Now I'm saying they're definitely capable of it.  Whether he gets them to perform is an altogether different animal.  The offense we know will be killer and if this 3-4 actually works.....  look out.

...as much as I hate to get my hopes up, I'm not joking.

Based on talent we don't have a 10 win roster.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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that's the rationalization huh? That must make what Petrino did even more impressive.

Total defense. National Rank
2011
1. Bama
2. LSU
3. S Carolina
5. Georgia
8. Florida
18. Vanderbilt
27. Tenn.
35. Miss St.
47. Arkansas
58. Kentucky
 5 of top 10.  9 in top 50

2016
1. Bama
5. Florida
10. LSU
16. Georgia
28. Auburn
64. Vandy
75. Arkansas
85. Kentucky
90. aTm
3 in top 10. 5 in top 50.
In 2011 #10 defense in sec was 58 in country.
2016 # 10 defense was  90th.
Spin how you want. Defenses in sec are not as good as they used to be. Try to keep up.

Over time 2002-2016, most defenses (at a glance) don't seem to be as tough in the SEC West because in most cases, offenses have improved. I compared 5 year averages among, 2002-2006, 2007-2011 and 2012-2016. Most defenses are allowing more yards while putting more players in the NFL, so it isn't matter of a lack of talent, it is just that offenses have become better.

I could provide numbers to prove it, but you guys won't read them, so just take my word for it. Don't want to take my word for it? Go research the numbers.
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bphi11ips

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You obviously have nothing more than an opinion and a keyboard if you believe CBB or Jeff Long are in ANY danger of being gone after this season.

And that's what I and others are trying to tell you.  This is a long term plan and your unhappiness has no bearing on it.  The absolute best thing you can do, today and for the next two seasons, is shut up and support the program, including the coach.  The odds of winning like you want are much higher if CBB stays, for several years.  Because he ain't leaving for at least two more, and THEN the next guy would need some time to get his systems installed.

Pretty much everyone here supports the program and wishes the best for the coach. 

I doubt Long's job is in jeopardy regardless of the outcome of this football season.  However, there are 9 losable games on the schedule.  6 of those are also winnable.  I've never seen a season so hard to predict. Do you think Bielema is bulletproof if he goes 3-9 or 4-8?
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Normally we agree on lots of things, but this " should " have won all the games you listed is just not grounded in any thing. I guess I could list game we should not have won, like the last 2 old miss games, but that would not be grounded in anything either, other than it being my opinion. Now, COULD they have won all those games, sure, but to say they SHOULD have is a reach.

The problem is, the depth is just not there to stand up to a sec season. At some point injury forces inferior talent onto the field, or fatigue gets the guys who have to play every darn snap.

I say, "should have" because we had chances within our grasp to make it happen. As for the part about depth, read again what I posted about our opponents as compared to us. It's not just depth, it is the quality of the depth. We have a lot of good kids that make it in the NFL that get drafted in Rounds 4-7 or sign UDFA Contracts, but there isn't a single conference in the country that produces the level of talent that the SEC does each year.
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LRRandy

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You looked up the wrong year. But you get a gold star for at least lookin'.

In 2015, the SEC had 12 teams in the Top 60 for total defense. #10 defense was 56 in the country.
the wrong year for your liking I guess. I was just showing actual numbers that showed sec defenses aren't as good as they once were.
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LRRandy

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Over time 2002-2016, most defenses (at a glance) don't seem to be as tough in the SEC West because in most cases, offenses have improved. I compared 5 year averages among, 2002-2006, 2007-2011 and 2012-2016. Most defenses are allowing more yards while putting more players in the NFL, so it isn't matter of a lack of talent, it is just that offenses have become better.

I could provide numbers to prove it, but you guys won't read them, so just take my word for it. Don't want to take my word for it? Go research the numbers.
chicken or the egg? Are the offenses better because the defenses aren't as good? I'm not trying ( not going to be able) to convince any one that doesn't want to see it. National perception ( poll ranking) at the end of last season and in the early preseason rankings bare out what those numbers show.
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LR54

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the wrong year for your liking I guess. I was just showing actual numbers that showed sec defenses aren't as good as they once were.

I was comparing 2011 to 2015 offense. What would 2016 defense have to do with that?
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LRRandy

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I was comparing 2011 to 2015 offense. What would 2016 defense have to do with that?
fair enough. I was actually curious as to how the most recent sec season compared to what was the pinnacle season of sec dominance.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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chicken or the egg? Are the offenses better because the defenses aren't as good? I'm not trying ( not going to be able) to convince any one that doesn't want to see it. National perception ( poll ranking) at the end of last season and in the early preseason rankings bare out what those numbers show.

It's not a matter of which came first (the chicken or the egg) if you really read my post. Go back and research the same time periods that I did and compare it to the number of players on each side that ball that were drafted and you'll see the truth. But that actually involves work as opposed to a ( I kinda figure) opinion.
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LRRandy

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It's not a matter of which came first (the chicken or the egg) if you really read my post. Go back and research the same time periods that I did and compare it to the number of players on each side that ball that were drafted and you'll see the truth. But that actually involves work as opposed to a ( I kinda figure) opinion.
ok. Let's see how these high powered offenses finish in comparative years to the defensive numbers that I posted.

Total offense. National rank
2011
12. Missouri
29. Arkansas
31. Alabama
39. Georgia
84. Miss St.
86. LSU
98. Vandy
100. Auburn
104. Tenn
105. Florida

2016
13. Missouri
24. aTm
26. Ole Miss
34. Alabama
40. Tenn
42. Auburn
44. Miss. St.
54. Arkansas
59. LSU
61. Kentucky
Marked improvement from 2011 to 2016 in how the sec finished in total offense.
2011 there were 4 teams in top 50. 2016 7 teams cracked the top 50. No top 10 offenses in either year. 2 top 25 offenses in 2016 and 1 top 25 offense in 2011.

These rankings show improvement by sec offenses but still not quite ranking among the nations leaders. So I guess high powered would be a relative term.  The decline in defense that the numbers show also reflects in the wins ( or lack thereof)  in big games and overall records.
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LRRandy

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You looked up the wrong year. But you get a gold star for at least lookin'.

In 2015, the SEC had 12 teams in the Top 60 for total defense. #10 defense was 56 in the country.
I did go look. It's funny how you stretched the criteria to top 60. There are 5 sec team between #50 and #60. So 7 top 50 defenses in 2015.
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BigE_23

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You obviously have nothing more than an opinion and a keyboard if you believe CBB or Jeff Long are in ANY danger of being gone after this season.

And that's what I and others are trying to tell you.  This is a long term plan and your unhappiness has no bearing on it.  The absolute best thing you can do, today and for the next two seasons, is shut up and support the program, including the coach.  The odds of winning like you want are much higher if CBB stays, for several years.  Because he ain't leaving for at least two more, and THEN the next guy would need some time to get his systems installed.

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