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Poll

Which method of building the football program best serves Arkansas?

Cheat like SMU and Ole Miss
- 14 (6.2%)
Hire and fire coaches every two years until we hit "The Next Big Thing"
- 7 (3.1%)
Build with a long term plan that may not come to fruition for 8-10 years
- 149 (65.6%)
Break the bank and hire Urban or Nick.  Pay them ANY amount of money to get them here.
- 57 (25.1%)

Total Members Voted: 227


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Author Topic: Because it's summer and we keep having the same stupid conversation, a poll...  (Read 3472 times)

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Deep Shoat

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Give me a flash in the pan that'll give us a couple of good years and then bolt/get fired/whatever.  I'd much rather take 1-2 good seasons now over never seeing them.
How do you get him?  It has become abundantly obvious that hiring up-and-comers is a pure crap shoot. 
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Wildhog

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How do you get him?  It has become abundantly obvious that hiring up-and-comers is a pure crap shoot. 

Hire and fire until you find one.  Stability schmability.
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Deep Shoat

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Hire and fire until you find one.  Stability schmability.
At least your honest.  Unlike many who want to do the same thing.
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Wildhog

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If you can't get it done in 5 years, it's not ever going to happen.  You can throw out a case or two to claim otherwise, but you'd just be arguing the exceptions that prove the rule.  The odds certainly aren't in your favor.
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DLUXHOG

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If you can't get it done in 5 years, it's not ever going to happen.  You can throw out a case or two to claim otherwise, but you'd just be arguing the exceptions that prove the rule.  The odds certainly aren't in your favor.
it took Tom Landry 11 years, and he's considered to be one of the best ever............
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Wildhog

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it took Tom Landry 11 years, and he's considered to be one of the best ever............

Like I said, arguing exceptions to the rule.

And you had to go to the NFL to do so.
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bphi11ips

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We're close to the same age.  I actually remember when TCU was pretty solid as well.  ....before they became a SWC doormat with Rice.

It's hard for me to take TCU seriously back in those days because we beat them 22 times in a row.  Remember this?  "Welcome to the Lou Holtz Show.  Unfortunately, I'm Lou Holtz."  But TCU was a national power before 1960. 

Houston was a very strong program from the time they joined the conference In 1976.  They finished in the AP Top 10 four times and the AP Top 20 twice more in the next 15 years.  Andre Ware won the Heisman. 

Baylor had some very good teams in the 70s and 80s.  Grant Teaff was a highly respected coach.  The Bears finished in the Top 20 six times between 1974 and 1986.

Texas Tech had some good teams in the 60s and 70s and were always competitive.  They finished 10 in 1965, 11 in 1973 and 16 in 1976. 

And of course there was Texas.  The Longhorns won 3 NCs in the 60s, finished in the Top 10 fifteen times between 1959 and 1990, and six more times in the Top 20 those same years. 

Even Rice had its glory days prior to 1960, especially under Jess Neely.  They won the SWC six times between 1934 and 1957.  Tommy Kramer was the best pro-style QB in the country in the mid-70s.  The Owls had a knack for ruining Texas seasons.  Ours, too, a couple of times. 

The Southwest Conference was established in 1914.  Arkansas was a charter member.  The SWC was the equivalent of a P5 conference for its entire existence. 

Anyone can rewrite history. 
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DLUXHOG

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Like I said, arguing exceptions to the rule.

And you had to go to the NFL to do so.

Okay... college....  it took Barry Switzer 3 years, Jimmy Johnson 4 years (both Arkansas graduates and players), Frank Broyles 7 years, Lou Holtz 3 years.....   and, the NFL is a much, much harder place to achieve victory than college............. and your point?
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Wildhog

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Okay... college....  it took Barry Switzer 3 years, Jimmy Johnson 4 years (both Arkansas graduates and players), Frank Broyles 7 years, Lou Holtz 3 years.....   and, the NFL is a much, much harder place to achieve victory than college............. and your point?

Frank Broyles won 9 games in year two.  It took him seven to go UNDEFEATED, lol.

The others did it in less than five.
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EastexHawg

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Life's too short to wait 8-10 years for a football coach to get it done. 

I guess it's okay if you are a college student and have never known Arkansas to be anything more than a mediocre also-ran.  People a little more advanced in years know what the program can be and don't have as many seasons left for wandering around in the wilderness trying to give the highest paid state employee in history time to figure it out.  He's going to make (yet another) coaching change.  He's going to switch to a different defense.  How about if we just have a coach who understands the SEC, knows how to get the job done from the start, and doesn't need year after year of mulligans in hopes of happening upon getting it right?
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gchamblee

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But that wasn't what we were discussing.

hogtard doesnt miss an opportunity to talk about how mediocre we are :)
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Deep Shoat

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If you can't get it done in 5 years, it's not ever going to happen.  You can throw out a case or two to claim otherwise, but you'd just be arguing the exceptions that prove the rule.  The odds certainly aren't in your favor.
The odds dang sure aren't in your favor.  Fire and hire until you get lucky is the tack most teams have taken since Oklahoma got lucky with Bob Stoops.

The question is not "How many schools took a slow buildup approach and were successful?".  The question should be "How many schools similar to Arkansas have been successful with ANY OTHER APPROACH?".

Seriously, list off the schools most similar to us and see how many of them have achieved the levels we want while using any method other than patience for a significant amount of time.  You might be able to list Stanford.  But they hired Jim Harbaugh.  There aren't many Jim Harbaughs out there. 

It's just not a winning proposition.  And anyone who follows the game closely should know that. 

Bielema is doing the right things AND getting the right results in every aspect but on the field.  Doesn't it make sense that on the field is soon to follow?  Seriously, when was the last time you saw any organization that was run as well as Arkansas football NOT succeed?
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Wildhog

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The odds dang sure aren't in your favor.  Fire and hire until you get lucky is the tack most teams have taken since Oklahoma got lucky with Bob Stoops.

The question is not "How many schools took a slow buildup approach and were successful?".  The question should be "How many schools similar to Arkansas have been successful with ANY OTHER APPROACH?".

Seriously, list off the schools most similar to us and see how many of them have achieved the levels we want while using any method other than patience for a significant amount of time.  You might be able to list Stanford.  But they hired Jim Harbaugh.  There aren't many Jim Harbaughs out there. 

It's just not a winning proposition.  And anyone who follows the game closely should know that. 

Bielema is doing the right things AND getting the right results in every aspect but on the field.  Doesn't it make sense that on the field is soon to follow?  Seriously, when was the last time you saw any organization that was run as well as Arkansas football NOT succeed?

I'm not under some delusion that we're going to sustain a high level of success.  We are what we are. 

However, maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle (again) and rattle off a few great seasons before going back to our place.
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Deep Shoat

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I guess it's okay if you are a college student and have never known Arkansas to be anything more than a mediocre also-ran.  People a little more advanced in years know what the program can be and don't have as many seasons left for wandering around in the wilderness trying to give the highest paid state employee in history time to figure it out.  He's going to make (yet another) coaching change.  He's going to switch to a different defense.  How about if we just have a coach who understands the SEC, knows how to get the job done from the start, and doesn't need year after year of mulligans in hopes of happening upon getting it right?
So you DO want to fire Bielema?

Oh, and who is this guy you are wanting to hire?
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hogsanity

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If you can't get it done in 5 years, it's not ever going to happen.  You can throw out a case or two to claim otherwise, but you'd just be arguing the exceptions that prove the rule.  The odds certainly aren't in your favor.


Your own words " IF you can't get it done in 5 years it's NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN " then you turn right around and say people can find exceptions to that? You can not have exceptions to NOT EVER.

But what do you mean by " get it done "? is that win a nc, a sec title, make the playoff, make a big 6 bowl?
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Wildhog

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But what do you mean by " get it done "? is that win a nc, a sec title, make the playoff, make a big 6 bowl?

Fair question.  I would say winning at a higher rate than our average is "getting it done."
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Wildhog

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Your own words " IF you can't get it done in 5 years it's NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN " then you turn right around and say people can find exceptions to that? You can not have exceptions to NOT EVER.

Fine.  "If you can't get it done in 5 years the odds of it ever happening are very, very, very, very slim."
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Deep Shoat

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I'm not under some delusion that we're going to sustain a high level of success.  We are what we are. 

However, maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle (again) and rattle off a few great seasons before going back to our place.
Again, real football talk says that is more likely by giving a guy time instead of fire/hire/fire/hire...

Alabama and tOSU and Michigan and USC can get away with that.  Arkansas can't.


Seriously, but the standards most of you are tossing out, Kirk Ferentz and Mike Gundy are failures.  Yet they are both considered top 15 coaches by almost every expert.

Crappy first season are kind of the norm in college football, unless you just walked into the perfect storm.  That's true even at the blue bloods.  In fact, a short read of today's top coaches bio at their current school would suggest year 3 as the point real progress becomes apparent.  Then, with minor fluctuation due to graduation and injuries, most of them started a steady climb to the level we want to be.  Years 5 through 10 are usually prime.

The biggest problem on these boards and radio stations is a lack of ability to be objective about where Arkansas fits in the pecking order.  Understand what our norm is (7-8 wins), then do the thing that makes the most sense to rise above the norm.
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Deep Shoat

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Fair question.  I would say winning at a higher rate than our average is "getting it done."
How often do you have to do that?  Every year?  2 out of 3?  5 out of 6? 
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Deep Shoat

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Double post
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Wildhog

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Again, real football talk says that is more likely by giving a guy time instead of fire/hire/fire/hire...

Alabama and tOSU and Michigan and USC can get away with that.  Arkansas can't.


Seriously, but the standards most of you are tossing out, Kirk Ferentz and Mike Gundy are failures.  Yet they are both considered to 15 coaches by almost every expert.

Crappy first season are kind of the norm in college football, unless you just walked into the perfect storm.  That's true even at the blue bloods.  In fact, a short read of today's top coaches bio at their current school would suggest year 3 as the point real progress becomes apparent.  Then, with minor fluctuation due to graduation and injuries, most of them started a steady climb to the level we want to be.  Years 5 through 10 are usually prime.

The biggest problem on these boards and radio stations is a lack of ability to be objective about where Arkansas fits in the pecking order.  Understand what our norm is (7-8 wins), then do the thing that makes the most sense to rise above the norm.

I don't hold 2013 against CBB.

Like I said, I'm under no delusions.  We're a 7.5-8 wins/season kind of program. 

I'd rather find a guy with higher upside at the expense of stability than a guy with a lower ceiling that will provide more stability. 

For example, I'd MUCH prefer a four year stretch of 4-8, 7-5, 9-3, 10-2 over 7-5, 8-4, 7-5, 8-4.   Both average out to 7.5 wins/year, but I prefer the high ceiling.

I realize many may feel differently, but that's why we have message boards.

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gchamblee

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I don't hold 2013 against CBB.

Like I said, I'm under no delusions.  We're a 7.5-8 wins/season kind of program. 

I'd rather find a guy with higher upside at the expense of stability than a guy with a lower ceiling that will provide more stability. 

For example, I'd MUCH prefer a four year stretch of 4-8, 7-5, 9-3, 10-2 over 7-5, 8-4, 7-5, 8-4.   Both average out to 7.5 wins/year, but I prefer the high ceiling.

I realize many may feel differently, but that's why we have message boards.

Thats reasonable and I can respect that
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hogcard1964

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when was the last time you saw any organization that was run as well as Arkansas football NOT succeed?

Are we talking academics?  If so...

Northwestern, Illinois, Purdue, Maryland, Vandy, Stanford, Boston College, Syracuse....

Just off the top of my head.
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LZH

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Life's too short to wait 8-10 years for a football coach to get it done. 

You're aging too fast......
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Wildhog

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You're aging too fast......

Tell me about it. 
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LZH

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"Welcome to the Lou Holtz Show.  Unfortunately, I'm Lou Holtz."

That was hilarious. BTW I think that was after the Rice game at WMS in 1980. It was the first year my dad split up our tickets and us kids sat in the SEZ.
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bphi11ips

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Maybe its symantics n not an argument. I always looked at those programs as power running systems and not a big ten thing. I'd throw in the old Texas n OK teams as well and yes I know they were option at times.

Regardless of semantics, the hallmark for decades of the best Big Ten teams and SEC teams has by and large been great defense, special teams, and balanced  pro-style offense.  Those Texas and OU wishbone teams didn't pass much at all.   

Offensively, Bielema is in the pocket.  Offense is not the problem.  If he can find a defense and field better special teams he can win 10 or more.  He might this year.  He'll also serve himself well, in my opinion, if he'll match his game management more closely to his philosophy.  Don't take points off the board by going for it on fourth down so much. If your kicker misses he misses.  Don't risk momentum changing fake punts and onsides kicks except when you either have no choice or it's completely unexpected.  In other words, have more patience and trust your team.  They'll get the message.
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bphi11ips

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That was hilarious. BTW I think that was after the Rice game at WMS in 1980. It was the first year my dad split up our tickets and us kids sat in the SEZ.

Could have been.  I was thinking it was when TCU snapped our 22-game winning streak. 
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hogsanity

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Fair question.  I would say winning at a higher rate than our average is "getting it done."

So they start winning 9 or 10 a year, is that really going to get them anymore than it does now? It is not going to send them to ATL, or the playoff. I guess it would get them a little better bowl game, but thats about it.
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Wildhog

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So they start winning 9 or 10 a year, is that really going to get them anymore than it does now? It is not going to send them to ATL, or the playoff. I guess it would get them a little better bowl game, but thats about it.

To each their own. I'd be absolutely thrilled. 
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MuskogeeHogFan

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So they start winning 9 or 10 a year, is that really going to get them anymore than it does now? It is not going to send them to ATL, or the playoff. I guess it would get them a little better bowl game, but thats about it.

I certainly want to see us start winning 9 each year and I think we are capable of that most years. In fact, there is a pretty good argument that could be made that we might have been able to achieve 9-10 wins each year the last 3 years in a row had we not found ways to shot ourselves in the foot so many times. We have done it so many times that I'm kinda surprised that we have a foot remaining. ;)

But I can see it now, start winning 9-10 games every season and the complaint will be that Bielema has taken us as far as he can because we aren't in the SECCG or winning the SEC. Time for a new coach. That doggone Bielema! :)
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bphi11ips

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I certainly want to see us start winning 9 each year and I think we are capable of that most years. In fact, there is a pretty good argument that could be made that we might have been able to achieve 9-10 wins each year the last 3 years in a row had we not found ways to shot ourselves in the foot so many times. We have done it so many times that I'm kinda surprised that we have a foot remaining. ;)

But I can see it now, start winning 9-10 games every season and the complaint will be that Bielema has taken us as far as he can because we aren't in the SECCG or winning the SEC. Time for a new coach. That doggone Bielema! :)

At some point early in Frank Broyles' career at Arkansas, can't remember after which very good season, John Barnhill told him he had ruined a perfectly good job. 
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Wildhog

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I certainly want to see us start winning 9 each year and I think we are capable of that most years. In fact, there is a pretty good argument that could be made that we might have been able to achieve 9-10 wins each year the last 3 years in a row had we not found ways to shot ourselves in the foot so many times. We have done it so many times that I'm kinda surprised that we have a foot remaining. ;)

But I can see it now, start winning 9-10 games every season and the complaint will be that Bielema has taken us as far as he can because we aren't in the SECCG or winning the SEC. Time for a new coach. That doggone Bielema! :)

And I'd be defending him like crazy.
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LRRandy

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I certainly want to see us start winning 9 each year and I think we are capable of that most years. In fact, there is a pretty good argument that could be made that we might have been able to achieve 9-10 wins each year the last 3 years in a row had we not found ways to shot ourselves in the foot so many times. We have done it so many times that I'm kinda surprised that we have a foot remaining. ;)

But I can see it now, start winning 9-10 games every season and the complaint will be that Bielema has taken us as far as he can because we aren't in the SECCG or winning the SEC. Time for a new coach. That doggone Bielema! :)
walk before you run big guy. Ya gotta get over 8 wins first.
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Wildhog

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walk before you run big guy. Ya gotta get over 8 wins first.

While I generally appreciate your trolling, you know he knows that.  :)
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MuskogeeHogFan

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walk before you run big guy. Ya gotta get over 8 wins first.

Captain Obvious.
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LZH

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At some point early in Frank Broyles' career at Arkansas, can't remember after which very good season, John Barnhill told him he had ruined a perfectly good job. 

Ha!
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LRRandy

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While I generally appreciate your trolling, you know he knows that.  :)
Captain Obvious.
just having a little fun. Most anyone else and my obviousness might not be so obvious. But since obviously I was poking at Muskogee it was....you know. Obvious.
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EastexHawg

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Okay... college....  it took Barry Switzer 3 years, Jimmy Johnson 4 years (both Arkansas graduates and players), Frank Broyles 7 years, Lou Holtz 3 years.....   and, the NFL is a much, much harder place to achieve victory than college............. and your point?

Huh?  Barry Switzer went undefeated his first year and was 32-1-1 with two national championships in his first three years.  Broyles finished in the Top 10 and won conference championships in his second, third, and fourth seasons at Arkansas.
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PorkSoda

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If you can't get it done in 5 years, it's not ever going to happen.  You can throw out a case or two to claim otherwise, but you'd just be arguing the exceptions that prove the rule.  The odds certainly aren't in your favor.
make what happen?  are you a "championship or bust" type?  you would rather win 3 games a year and hope you hit the jack pot eventually, than average 8 wins and be in the conversation every year?
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EastexHawg

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make what happen?  are you a "championship or bust" type?  you would rather win 3 games a year and hope you hit the jack pot eventually, than average 8 wins and be in the conversation every year?

When is this eight wins every year thing going to happen?  We've done it once in the last five seasons and are 29-34 during that time, an average of 5.8 per year.  People probably wouldn't be so restless if we were 40-25 instead.
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PorkSoda

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When is this eight wins every year thing going to happen?  We've done it once in the last five seasons and are 29-34 during that time, an average of 5.8 per year.  People probably wouldn't be so restless if we were 40-25 instead.
last 3 seasons 7,8,7

there is a good chance we win 7 or 8 next year too.

in any of those seasons we were a few plays away from winning 9 or 10.

if CBB can figure out how to pull out a few of those close losses, we will be in the conversation every year.  and that is where you want to be.  if winning a championship is truly your goal.
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EastexHawg

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There are several facets to this conversation and Bielema is only one of them.  If the two options are keeping Bielema or eventually letting Jeff Long pick his successor I guess I am in favor of holding onto him
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LRRandy

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make what happen?  are you a "championship or bust" type?  you would rather win 3 games a year and hope you hit the jack pot eventually, thanaverage 8 wins and be in the conversation every year?
the only conversation 8 wins a year gets you in is do you get to wear the home or away jerseys at the poulan weedeater bowl.
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PorkSoda

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There are several facets to this conversation and Bielema is only one of them.  If the two options are keeping Bielema or eventually letting Jeff Long pick his successor I guess I am in favor of holding onto him

I do agree with that.  Jeff Long has been good for the university, but he is not a sports guy, and has shown no ability to distinguish between a good coach and a not so good coach.  both petrino and BB basically fell in his lap. 
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PorkSoda

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the only conversation 8 wins a year gets you in is do you get to wear the home or away jerseys at the poulan weedeater bowl.
yeah, but when you are 8 wins with a shot at 10+ when you hit that 10+ you are suddenly in the mix.

if you want to fire the coach every 2-3 years then you better be okay winning 4-6 games a year because you wont get a proven coach on a 2 year contract, and if you give them more, then you will end up paying buy outs for multiple coaches at a time, which means less money for the program and to hire new coaches etc.

IOW, if you don't have patience, you are planning to fail instead of planning to succeed.
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bphi11ips

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There are several facets to this conversation and Bielema is only one of them.  If the two options are keeping Bielema or eventually letting Jeff Long pick his successor I guess I am in favor of holding onto him


Lol. I have to agree with you.
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LRRandy

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yeah, but when you are 8 wins with a shot at 10+ when you hit that 10+ you are suddenly in the mix.

if you want to fire the coach every 2-3 years then you better be okay winning 4-6 games a year because you wont get a proven coach on a 2 year contract, and if you give them more, then you will end up paying buy outs for multiple coaches at a time, which means less money for the program and to hire new coaches etc.

IOW, if you don't have patience, you are planning to fail instead of planning to succeed.
that says awfully easy. It's the doing it that becomes the hard part. You're stretching quite a bit tonight. Cerveza must be flowing.
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lakecityhog

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Shoat, what do you consider a "fair" amount of time to give a guy to "get-it-done"? And, what do you consider getting it done to be?

I said 5 years should be time for any coach to show real improvement, but I have also said that what the hell, let's give BB the full 6 years. In year 5 a coach should have a fair amount of 5th year seniors and his system should be pretty well established.

What would you consider as a fair expectation for the 5th year of the BB era? What about the 6th year?
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Wildhog

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make what happen?  are you a "championship or bust" type?  you would rather win 3 games a year and hope you hit the jack pot eventually, than average 8 wins and be in the conversation every year?

I think you might have responded to that before reading the rest of my posts in this thread.
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