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Author Topic: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck  (Read 2363 times)

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HoginMemphis

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15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« on: May 16, 2017, 08:15:05 am »

Seems light, does it not? If you firmly grasp a facemask and suddenly change the direction of the player's head and/or bring the player to the ground, should you at least be ejected from the game? Seems like if they can make other rule changes, they can change this.

It's always been sort of understood that this is just another penalty and nothing serious. But it is probably the easiest way to break someone's neck. And the grasping of the facemask can be avoided. It is not accidental or incidental when a defender holds onto the facemask.
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hobhog

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2017, 08:18:32 am »

Maybe if the player is injured and has to leave the game. That would certainly be fair. Orherwise too hard of a judgement call on incidental contact with face mask. It can be scrapped with the hand thru effort and be accidental I think.
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Bacons Rebellion

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 08:20:00 am »

You have any data on how many necks were broken last season by face mask grasping?
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hogsanity

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 08:30:50 am »

So, should it be a more sever penalty if you clip someone and hurt their knee, or commit any foul and the opposing player gets hurt? 
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HoginMemphis

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 08:42:24 am »

Maybe if the player is injured and has to leave the game. That would certainly be fair. Orherwise too hard of a judgement call on incidental contact with face mask. It can be scrapped with the hand thru effort and be accidental I think.
How do you instantly determine that it is an injury? And how do you stop players from grabbing and holding the face mask if you do not kick them out of the game regardless of the outcome of doing so? They stopped players from targeting by kicking them out of the game. Why not kick players out for grabbing facemarks? As long as they know the consequences ahead of time, they will avoid grabbing the facemask. I contend it is easier to avoid grabbing the facemask and holding on than it is to avoid hitting a player in the head given how offensive players drop their head and change body position while being hit by defenders.
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HoginMemphis

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 08:43:30 am »

You have any data on how many necks were broken last season by face mask grasping?
No. But I have data on how many were broken the season before on the U of Ark team. And is not just one, one too many?
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tusksincolorado

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 08:43:43 am »


I am probably wrong....but I think in some of the darkest corners of coaching in the SEC that defenses are told as a "last act of desperation" to stop the offensive player by any means when it is late and the game is on the line.
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HoginMemphis

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2017, 08:45:15 am »

So, should it be a more sever penalty if you clip someone and hurt their knee, or commit any foul and the opposing player gets hurt?
No. A blown out knee versus being paralyzed seem to be quite different outcomes on the severity scale due to behavior on the football field that violates the written rules of the game.
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mizzouman

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2017, 09:40:03 am »

At some point, players must assume the risks.  Football can be a very dangerous sport with long lasting issues.  You cannot make football injury free and risk free.  By its very nature, it’s violent.

Like boxing.  Hitting below the belt is illegal but a violent upper cut to the nose, which can cause the bone to shoot through the brain, isn’t. 
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DeltaBoy

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2017, 10:09:38 am »

The guy who hurt JW should have been ejected but that water under the bridge now.
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hawginbigd1

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2017, 10:25:16 am »

Seems light, does it not? If you firmly grasp a facemask and suddenly change the direction of the player's head and/or bring the player to the ground, should you at least be ejected from the game? Seems like if they can make other rule changes, they can change this.

It's always been sort of understood that this is just another penalty and nothing serious. But it is probably the easiest way to break someone's neck. And the grasping of the facemask can be avoided. It is not accidental or incidental when a defender holds onto the facemask.
Had a half dozen or so flagged on me in my career, and not one time was it intentional, a couple were pretty severe before I could let go.
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The NewEra

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2017, 10:32:56 am »

How do you instantly determine that it is an injury? And how do you stop players from grabbing and holding the face mask if you do not kick them out of the game regardless of the outcome of doing so? They stopped players from targeting by kicking them out of the game. Why not kick players out for grabbing facemarks? As long as they know the consequences ahead of time, they will avoid grabbing the facemask. I contend it is easier to avoid grabbing the facemask and holding on than it is to avoid hitting a player in the head given how offensive players drop their head and change body position while being hit by defenders.

My nephew and I were discussing this issue and both came up with the same conclusion that you have.

There should be a 15 yard penalty and an ejection penalty.  If a review shows you held onto the face mask then your ejected. 
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factchecker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 10:38:00 am »

A player should be ejected if they firmly grasp and pull someone's face mask.  Players are ejected for helmet to helmet regardless of intent so why shouldn't this be the same. You don't have to judge intent. Intent means nothing in this scenario. Just look for the grasp and pull.

You teach your players not to lead with their head.  You also teach them to wrap up on tackles and attack the ball-----
 not someone's face mask.  No room for players who are too lazy or who lack the basic fundamentals to wrap up the body instead of grabbing for a face mask.

Just to reiterate.  If you can be ejected for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkiBh7jDKFI


Then you sure as hell need to be ejected for this:

https://twitter.com/Hogtrough/status/787676550200107009
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hogsanity

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2017, 11:25:51 am »

At least in college all facemask penalties are 15 yards. In HS we still have to determine 5 or 15.

If they want to stop facemasking, make a cover with small holes in it for ventilation on the outside of the mask frame. That way there is nothing to grasp.
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MultipleScoreGasms

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2017, 11:41:33 am »

Maybe if the player is injured and has to leave the game. That would certainly be fair. Orherwise too hard of a judgement call on incidental contact with face mask. It can be scrapped with the hand thru effort and be accidental I think.
I'm sure all of us could make similar arguments about the targeting rule.  Most are incidental, especially when the offensive player changes his trajectory.  Still, the defensive player is ejected.
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PorkRinds

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2017, 11:43:46 am »

The guy who hurt JW should have been ejected but that water under the bridge now.

Man oh man.
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supersaint

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2017, 12:06:46 pm »

I am probably wrong....but I think in some of the darkest corners of coaching in the SEC that defenses are told as a "last act of desperation" to stop the offensive player by any means when it is late and the game is on the line.

We were never told anything like that when I played.  This was many years ago, but I doubt it's changed.
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Hoggish1

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2017, 01:32:26 pm »

Seems light, does it not? If you firmly grasp a facemask and suddenly change the direction of the player's head and/or bring the player to the ground, should you at least be ejected from the game? Seems like if they can make other rule changes, they can change this.



I might even go further by ejecting the player for three games, maybe half a season.  Look at the replay and decide if it's a three game suspension or a six game suspension.

I can see an inadvertent grab where the tackler immediately lets go but if someone grabs and yanks a player in a different direction than he was going, well that is way different and should be handled accordingly!

AND, why do we see that kind of tackling coming out of AU and OM so much?
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BritneySpareRibs

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2017, 01:45:17 pm »

You would think by now they could make a face mask that couldn't be grabbed on to
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hogsanity

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2017, 01:57:56 pm »

Most facemask penalties occur when defenders are just trying to grab the ball carrier, many times when a runner comes through the line, a defender locked up on a block just reaches a hand out into the hole and gets his fingers in the mask. Guys are rarely intentionally grabbing the mask, and they are not taught to tackle that way or we would see a lot more face mask penalties than we do now. It is also rare to see a face mask grab result in injury ( which is amazing actually ). 
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factchecker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2017, 02:30:23 pm »

Most facemask penalties occur when defenders are just trying to grab the ball carrier, many times when a runner comes through the line, a defender locked up on a block just reaches a hand out into the hole and gets his fingers in the mask. Guys are rarely intentionally grabbing the mask, and they are not taught to tackle that way or we would see a lot more face mask penalties than we do now. It is also rare to see a face mask grab result in injury ( which is amazing actually ).

How many helmet to helmet penalties happen because the offensive guy lowers his head at the last minute or because the defender took a bad angle?  Intent is not an excuse.

Whether or not Auburn's defender meant to facemask RWIII doesn't reverse the injury.



Instead of aiming for his head he should have been grabbing/wrapping up at waist.
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Bacons Rebellion

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2017, 02:39:17 pm »

No. But I have data on how many were broken the season before on the U of Ark team. And is not just one, one too many?

Ah, so you're just making it up to take the moral high ground.

You have won me over. If someone is paralyzed by an unintentional face mask we should cut the tackler's back open and remove his spinal cord on the field -- and make his mother watch. That will stop it. And sell tickets.
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hogsanity

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2017, 03:01:39 pm »

How many helmet to helmet penalties happen because the offensive guy lowers his head at the last minute or because the defender took a bad angle?  Intent is not an excuse.

Whether or not Auburn's defender meant to facemask RWIII doesn't reverse the injury.



Instead of aiming for his head he should have been grabbing/wrapping up at waist.

hard to wrap up or grab the waist when you can't reach the waist. RWIII was almost by him and he is just reach for whatever.

Don't get me wrong, getting grabbed by the face mask is dangerous, that's why it is a 15 yard penalty, I'm just saying that players are not usually trying to grab the mask. How many face mask penalties have the Hogs been flagged for the last 2 seasons? OR any other team for that matter.

I agree on the helmet to helmet hits, often caused by a late move by the offensive player that lower their own head into the zone the defender was aiming for.
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Wildhog

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2017, 03:02:55 pm »

Glad Joe Adams was never ejected for breaking ankles.
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factchecker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2017, 03:06:18 pm »

hard to wrap up or grab the waist when you can't reach the waist. RWIII was almost by him and he is just reach for whatever.

RWII was by the sideline - dive at his legs or dive and push him out of bounds.

There is no excuse for aiming, reaching, grasping at the helmet.  NONE.
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factchecker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2017, 03:06:41 pm »

Glad Joe Adams was never ejected for breaking ankles.

So juking someone out of their shoes is the same as twisting and pulling someone down by their facemask?
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PorkSoda

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2017, 03:10:10 pm »

Maybe if the player is injured and has to leave the game. That would certainly be fair. Orherwise too hard of a judgement call on incidental contact with face mask. It can be scrapped with the hand thru effort and be accidental I think.
I actually agree with the OP.  incidental (ie they let go) should be a 15 yard penalty.  if they grab it and hold on, it should be the same if they were called for targeting, which is an automatic ejection.

RWIII was almost by him and he is just reach for whatever.

Don't get me wrong, getting grabbed by the face mask is dangerous, that's why it is a 15 yard penalty, I'm just saying that players are not usually trying to grab the mask.

and don't tell me defenders cant feel the difference if they grab a hand full of jersey vs a hand full of face mask.
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PorkSoda

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2017, 03:11:38 pm »

So juking someone out of their shoes is the same as twisting and pulling someone down by their facemask?
umm...

Post-------->

your head <---
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factchecker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2017, 03:14:55 pm »

umm...

Post-------->

your head <---

UMMMM.......

STUPID JOKE.....

Shouldn't exist in a thread where we are discussing the temporary paralysis of one of our players.
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PorkSoda

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2017, 03:16:54 pm »

UMMMM.......

STUPID JOKE.....

Shouldn't exist in a thread where we are discussing the temporary paralysis of one of our players.
this isn't a thread about RW3, it a thread about penalties.
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factchecker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2017, 03:19:29 pm »

this isn't a thread about RW3, it a thread about penalties.

You're right.  This thread was started out of the blue for NO REASON at all.  No relation to the fact that RWIII suffered an injury due to a facemask. None at all.

No. But I have data on how many were broken the season before on the U of Ark team. And is not just one, one too many?
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Wildhog

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2017, 04:03:09 pm »

UMMMM.......

STUPID JOKE.....

Shouldn't exist in a thread where we are discussing the temporary paralysis of one of our players.

I meant absolutely no disrespect.  I was just trying to add a little levity.
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factchecker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2017, 04:10:33 pm »

I meant absolutely no disrespect.  I was just trying to add a little levity.

My bad.  I apologize for being a butthead.

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Wildhog

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2017, 04:15:48 pm »

My bad.  I apologize for being a butthead.



No worries.  It's always hard to tell intent on the innernets.
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PorkRinds

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2017, 04:21:30 pm »

I'm not so sure that suggesting new rules based on the emotional reaction of our player being horribly injured is a great idea.
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The Pocahontas Porker

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2017, 05:53:17 pm »

I have always thought if somebody would invent a face mask that has a little rolling bar on it so when they grab it the bar rolls and you couldn't actually grab the facemash real well ...I wonder if that would help players from injurys..
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BigDrDon

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2017, 05:56:21 pm »

Hell, lets just play some flag football!
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PorkSoda

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2017, 06:55:48 pm »

Hell, lets just play some flag football!
I take it this is you volunteering to let someone swing you around by your neck to prove how tough your are? 
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wildhogman

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2017, 07:04:24 pm »

 I bet if they did make this an auto ejection with review making the final decision if intent was incidental or blatant. Coaches would go out of their way to teach proper tackling techniques and stop hitting high.  I remember when everyone would grab a RB by his shoulder pads risking serious injury. Now you rarely see it. Why is that? 
How about the defensive plays we ohh'd  and aww'd over in the 60's 70's 80's. WR going over the middle and getting wrecked by a free safety. Now that same FS is taught to try to make a play on the ball, or else go low with head up Tackle, don't deliver knock out blow.
Some rule changes are good. Too much rules and yeah its flag football.  But I happen to agree with this. Its one thing to accidentally grab a face mask and let go, or even get a finger stuck and you cant let go, but after the play you show the remorse you feel. Specially if that player ends up hurt.  Its another matter to grab and deliberately hold on to it.  If your hand is on the face mask when you both hit the ground, eject time.
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bphi11ips

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2017, 09:04:33 pm »

HiM is right.  Grabbing and holding on should be an ejection.  On review the ejection could be reversed, just like with targeting the head.  Holding onto the facemask is less subjective than targeting.
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hobhog

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2017, 10:43:17 pm »

The guy who hurt JW should have been ejected but that water under the bridge now.

He apparently feels remorse and has been in contact with WWIII
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DOGALUM

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2017, 11:13:26 pm »

To answer the OP.....no.  They should not be ejected.  What looks like "intentional" grabbing of the face mask is many times unavoidable.  Stupid question to even ask.  But seeing who asked it explains a lot. 

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daBoar

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2017, 06:36:06 am »

HiM is right.  Grabbing and holding on should be an ejection.  On review the ejection could be reversed, just like with targeting the head.  Holding onto the facemask is less subjective than targeting.
Glad HiM started this thread; and I concur.  Players know when they touch the facemask; all the time you see them immediately move their hand away from the mask.  Those that don't, know they are tackling by the mask; and they should be ejected.  This is serious and must have a serious consequence.  Often the 15-yard penalty saves a much larger gain or a TD.  It's no different than clobbering the WR when the defender is beat before the ball gets there........a 15-yard penalty (if it's called) is no deterrent.
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OneTuskOverTheLine™

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2017, 07:14:28 am »

Glad Joe Adams was never ejected for breaking ankles.

Or heads...
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hogsanity

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2017, 08:21:41 am »

Would this thread have been started had a Hog player not been injured by being facemasked ( never mind that he came back less than a year later and lead the league in rushing )? Would those who think it should be an ejection feel that way had it been a Hog who committed the foul and broke the neck of a player?

It's funny, in the thread about " would you let your kid play football " we are told people need to quit being babies, football is a dangerous sport, but you can't shelter kids from danger" and countless stories of reckless behavior ( bike stunts, skateborads etc ) that are much more dangerous than football. We have threads all the time decrying the watering down of the physical nature of football. About how the targetting rule is a joke. But now we want to start ejecting guys because a Hog got hurt.

What has caused more injury, chop blocks or facemasks? Going at a guys knees for a tackle, or facemasking? It is not facemasking, and it is not even close.
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nchogg

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2017, 09:32:47 am »

You have any data on how many necks were broken last season by face mask grasping?
Remember it was not just the face mask that caused the severity of the injury, it was the hit while RWIII's face mask was held. That should have been an ejection. But what do I know.
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nchogg

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2017, 09:43:12 am »

To answer the OP.....no.  They should not be ejected.  What looks like "intentional" grabbing of the face mask is many times unavoidable.  Stupid question to even ask.  But seeing who asked it explains a lot.
I beg to differ. Watch the play again. When a player grabs a facemask and holds on to it slinging the player. Grabbing the face mask may have been unintentional but holding on and slinging was not. Unavoidable, I just can't understand your thinking, his hand was at the helmet area and holding on and slinging and the player and did not know they had the facemask.
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hogsanity

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2017, 10:01:41 am »

Remember it was not just the face mask that caused the severity of the injury, it was the hit while RWIII's face mask was held. That should have been an ejection. But what do I know.

Why? Did the player making the hot even know his teammate had the face mask? Some of you are attributing way too thought and malice on plays that happen at a very fast pace.

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Hogwild

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2017, 10:11:06 am »

I feel that one of the biggest problems is that the NCAA eliminated the 5 yard face mask penalty option.  Now any face mask is 15 yards automatic first down.  There is no reason to let go of the facemask, whether it is incidental or a neck breaker the penalty is the same.
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nchogg

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Re: 15 yard penalty for breaking a player's neck
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2017, 02:55:27 pm »

Why? Did the player making the hot even know his teammate had the face mask? Some of you are attributing way too thought and malice on plays that happen at a very fast pace.
Look at the angle of the hit. He had vision. Stick up for the Auburn defense all you want. That was a dirty play.
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