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Author Topic: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?  (Read 6235 times)

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hawkhawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2017, 06:23:42 pm »

I believe you are missing my point.

Ok in 16 seasons wilt won the scoring title 7 times and had 2 championships.

In 15 seasons mj won the scoring title 10 times and had 6 championships.

To me that sounds like mj was more dominate.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 06:34:30 pm by hawkhawg »
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ErieHog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #101 on: May 15, 2017, 07:17:22 pm »

I'm not sure what language is being used in the thread anymore.

Dominant players dominate;  no player 'is dominate';  one who has performed the act of domination, has dominated.

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hawkhawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #102 on: May 15, 2017, 07:26:41 pm »

I'm not sure what language is being used in the thread anymore.

Dominant players dominate;  no player 'is dominate';  one who has performed the act of domination, has dominated.



Mj Dominated all the players of his era.  It was total domination by a dominant player.
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Kevin McPherson

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2017, 10:21:06 pm »

Michael Jordan is the GOAT, period. Give me Magic, Bird, and Kareem next with guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Russell and LBJ vying for my Top 5.

MJ was not only unstoppable, but once he got to the Finals, he was unbeatable. Does anyone really doubt he would have gone 10 for 10 in titles had he not retired early TWICE? People talk about LBJ being better at making other players and teams better, but in the playoffs WHEN IT MATTERED MOST -- when the competition is better every night, when the physicality and pressure go up several notches, when the best either lead or get out of the way -- MJ delivered on the highest stage with all the pressure, while LBJ has failed more than he has won.

In 2 of the last 3 seasons alone, not only did LBJ's teams lose in the Finals, but players at his same position -- Khawi of SA and Igoudola of GS -- won Finals MVPs while outplaying LBJ in series turning points (situations and entire games). Of his 3 titles in 7 tries, LBJ needed a complete, uncharacteristic collapse by SA in the final few minutes of Game 6 to avoid being 2-5 in Finals.

Meanwhile, MJ never played in a Finals Game 7, and there's a reason for that: The best player ever was also the best closer ever. It will never be replicated. GOAT.

Better teammate? MJ got more from his teammates in the playoffs because he led by example while demanding his teammates raise their level of play. In that regard, MJ was actually better than LBJ at making guys around him better when it was win or go home. And as others have stated, MJ played in the golden era of basketball and had a much tougher path (Eastern Conference back then compared to now) to even get to the Finals.

If I'm building a team, I'd take MJ, Magic, and Bird all ahead of LeBron James.
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DOGALUM

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2017, 10:39:30 pm »

MJ is obviously superior to Lebron.

I'd take Kobe in a heartbeat over Lebron. 
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WBOBO

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2017, 12:02:37 am »

Y'all are leaving Dr. J out?   Aw hell to the naw to the naw naw naw.
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WBOBO

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2017, 12:06:42 am »

Some old hands help me out.  You had Doc, Dawk, Cheeks, and ......
on that 76ers teams
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71832

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2017, 07:27:00 am »

Some old hands help me out.  You had Doc, Dawk, Cheeks, and ......
on that 76ers teams
Moses and a white guy I'm wanting to say Bobby something played defense like motho.
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mizzouman

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2017, 07:36:57 am »

This question, "Who's the best ever?", comes in many forms.  Are we talking about the most dominant?  Are talking about how many championships?  Or are we talking about, "Who is the first person I'd pick in the draft?" 

Most Dominant               Wilt Chamberlain
Most Championships       Bill Russell
Who I would pick first     Michael Jordan
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RazorPiggie

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2017, 08:11:15 am »

This is like asking "Nicklaus or Jason Day, who you got?"

Jordan, all day every day.

It's nothing close to that.
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2017, 08:16:39 am »

You can't be the most dominate player and only win 2 championships.  While another center from your era won 11.  Stats are part of the equation but winning also has to be considered.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were better than Dan Marino.  Who knew?

How many players from those Celtics teams are in the Hall of Fame?  Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, Bill Sharman, Sam Jones, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell, Clyde Lovellette, K.C. Jones, Arnie Risen, Andy Phillip...

That's 11 Hall of Fame players.  Add in Russell and if they all played at the same time you would have an entire roster of Hall of Famers, along with the Hall of Fame, winningest coach of all time.
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2017, 08:24:44 am »

It's nothing close to that.

It is in that you are asking if one of the greatest current players (Steph Curry has won the last two MVP awards and Kobe was regarded as just as great a player, if not better, in his prime, so you can't say LeBron is without question the sole dominant player of his time) is better than the universally acknowledged greatest non-center in history.

It's okay for someone who is not playing at the moment to be the greatest of all time.  It's really not necessary to always try to make one of the current guys the best ever.  It really isn't.  Walter Payton and Emmitt Smith were great in their time, but they weren't better than Jim Brown.  No running back was.  By the same token, Kobe, LeBron, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird were all great, great players...but they weren't and never will be greater than Jordan. 
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HF#1

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2017, 10:59:06 am »

Jordan and it's not close. Kobe also before Lebron. Lebron is the greatest 3 to ever play though.
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hvsupastar

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2017, 11:41:34 am »

Jordan over Lebron

Shaq over Wilt

Shuttleworth over Bugs Bunny
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2017, 01:36:41 pm »

Moses and a white guy I'm wanting to say Bobby something played defense like motho.

Bobby Jones.  I think all he did was play shutdown defense, run the floor, and dunk.  Darryl Dawkins was gone by the time the Sixers won their championship in 1983 and Moses Malone was the center.  Andrew Toney was in the backcourt with Cheeks.

I always loved watching Dawkins...aka Chocolate Thunder.  He broke a backboard on a dunk against the Kings and wrote a poem about the play.  I can't remember all of it, but it started off with "Chocolate Thunder flying, Robinzine crying, teeth shaking, glass breaking..."
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2017, 01:55:35 pm »

A little Bobby Jones video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVAYXMTYpxU

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Rusty Shackleford

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2017, 08:22:04 pm »

Ray Biggers was 10-12 times better than Jordan.
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hawkhawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2017, 10:23:18 pm »

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were better than Dan Marino.  Who knew?

How many players from those Celtics teams are in the Hall of Fame?  Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, Bill Sharman, Sam Jones, Frank Ramsey, Bailey Howell, Clyde Lovellette, K.C. Jones, Arnie Risen, Andy Phillip...

That's 11 Hall of Fame players.  Add in Russell and if they all played at the same time you would have an entire roster of Hall of Famers, along with the Hall of Fame, winningest coach of all time.

I don't think Russell is better than wilt. I think mj is better than wilt. I was saying that championships play a role (along with stats ) in who is the best. Mj and wilt both have great stats so I say mj's championships put him over wilt.

Differ and Johnson only have a championship not the stats so they do not go ahead of Marino. Brady has the stats and the championships so he goes ahead of Marino.
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Rusty Shackleford

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2017, 11:58:32 pm »

I don't think Russell is better than wilt. I think mj is better than wilt. I was saying that championships play a role (along with stats ) in who is the best. Mj and wilt both have great stats so I say mj's championships put him over wilt.

Differ and Johnson only have a championship not the stats so they do not go ahead of Marino. Brady has the stats and the championships so he goes ahead of Marino.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
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Adam Stokes

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2017, 07:43:56 am »

Here's a fun stat I just found.

Michael Jordan has played in 37 playoff series and his team has gone on to win 30 of them.

LeBron James has played in 37 playoff series and his team has gone on to win 30 of them.

Through his first 10 trips to the playoffs, Michael Jordan won 3 rings.

Through his first 10 trips to the playoffs, LeBron James won 3 rings.

MJ lost in the first round 3 times while LeBron never has, though Lebron has lost 4 times in the finals while MJ never did. I guess some people just value losing in the first round more than losing in the finals.

Other stats:

LeBron James, in 11 less games played, and as a forward, has 1800 more assists than the guard. Give LeBron those points and he'd already have more career points than MJ.

MJ was so much better in the playoffs, which is why he only shot .004 (.332 vs .328) better from three, but was 0.021 (.503 vs .524) worse from 2, while having less rebounds, assists, and blocks than LeBron. So while MJ did take more shots, LeBron was better at essentially everything else (aside from .3 steals per game.)

And most of all, LeBron never got bored of competing, something MJ did (twice) only to realize he was a dumb@ss (twice). But oh yeah, MJ is the greatest because he was a competitor and stuff.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 08:19:22 am by Adam Stokes »
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Dominicanhog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2017, 09:44:48 am »

Here's a fun stat I just found.

Michael Jordan has played in 37 playoff series and his team has gone on to win 30 of them.

LeBron James has played in 37 playoff series and his team has gone on to win 30 of them.

Through his first 10 trips to the playoffs, Michael Jordan won 3 rings.

Through his first 10 trips to the playoffs, LeBron James won 3 rings.

MJ lost in the first round 3 times while LeBron never has, though Lebron has lost 4 times in the finals while MJ never did. I guess some people just value losing in the first round more than losing in the finals.

Other stats:

LeBron James, in 11 less games played, and as a forward, has 1800 more assists than the guard. Give LeBron those points and he'd already have more career points than MJ.

MJ was so much better in the playoffs, which is why he only shot .004 (.332 vs .328) better from three, but was 0.021 (.503 vs .524) worse from 2, while having less rebounds, assists, and blocks than LeBron. So while MJ did take more shots, LeBron was better at essentially everything else (aside from .3 steals per game.)

And most of all, LeBron never got bored of competing, something MJ did (twice) only to realize he was a dumb@ss (twice). But oh yeah, MJ is the greatest because he was a competitor and stuff.

One of the sabbatical's was mandated by the league, imo... and I agree with your summation on the rest...
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ShadowHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2017, 10:07:51 am »

MJ is the greatest.

LeBron is making a case for second.

Wilt is the second most dominant player ever. As a very old man he and Kareem were a push in their first full season against each other with Wilt swatting 6 of Kareem's shots in a single game.

Wilt averaged twice as many rebounds in his career and was the ONLY center to ever lead the NBA in assists.

He had a recorded bench press of 500 pounds. 50 more than Shaq. He averaged 46 minutes a game. Think about a big man with that kind of stamina and one that only fouled out of one game for his career.

The average height of the centers he faced was 6'10". That was how tall Hakeem was.

There has never been another big man with the combination of strength, skill, speed, quickness, and stamina as Wilt and never will be. The only reason he didn't have more championships was because of a Celtics team full of Hall of Fame players.
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MS_HogFan

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2017, 11:53:38 am »

I didnt say Lebron doesnt flop, thats the refs fault not his. If the refs will give a star 2 free throws everytime they do it.... you bet your ass im gonna do it.


I think this man sums it up pretty damn well:

https://www.facebook.com/TheHerd/videos/2015377945350061/

Thanks for the link. I agree and I grew up with Jordan posters on my wall
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2017, 02:48:08 pm »

MJ is the greatest.

LeBron is making a case for second.

Wilt is the second most dominant player ever. As a very old man he and Kareem were a push in their first full season against each other with Wilt swatting 6 of Kareem's shots in a single game.

Wilt averaged twice as many rebounds in his career and was the ONLY center to ever lead the NBA in assists.

He had a recorded bench press of 500 pounds. 50 more than Shaq. He averaged 46 minutes a game. Think about a big man with that kind of stamina and one that only fouled out of one game for his career.

The average height of the centers he faced was 6'10". That was how tall Hakeem was.

There has never been another big man with the combination of strength, skill, speed, quickness, and stamina as Wilt and never will be. The only reason he didn't have more championships was because of a Celtics team full of Hall of Fame players.

Right, right, right, and right.  Chamberlain is the greatest big man of all time and Jordan is the greatest non-center.  I'm not sure which was better overall. 

LeBron is Charles Barkley with a better supporting cast.  LeBron dishes out more assists, but Barkley shot a better percentage and was twice the rebounder.  Their steals and blocked shot numbers are roughly equal despite the fact that LeBron is still in his prime while Barkley played until he was a broken down old man.
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ErieHog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2017, 04:53:29 pm »

Right, right, right, and right.  Chamberlain is the greatest big man of all time and Jordan is the greatest non-center.  I'm not sure which was better overall. 

LeBron is Charles Barkley with a better supporting cast.  LeBron dishes out more assists, but Barkley shot a better percentage and was twice the rebounder.  Their steals and blocked shot numbers are roughly equal despite the fact that LeBron is still in his prime while Barkley played until he was a broken down old man.

Que?

Barkley and LeBron don't even play the same position--  and LeBron is a better shooter than Barkley ever was--  better from 3,  better from the FT line,  and a smaller tick behind him from 2 point land, despite playing SF and getting fewer attempts at the rim.

Oh-- and he distributes the ball like a guard, can still credibly defend 3 or 4 positions.
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2017, 08:37:05 pm »

Que?

Barkley and LeBron don't even play the same position--  and LeBron is a better shooter than Barkley ever was--  better from 3,  better from the FT line,  and a smaller tick behind him from 2 point land, despite playing SF and getting fewer attempts at the rim.

Oh-- and he distributes the ball like a guard, can still credibly defend 3 or 4 positions.

Barkley is in the top 25 in NBA history in FG percentage.  LeBron is somewhere down in the 125-130 range at barely 50%.

Yes, as I pointed out LeBron dishes more assists, but Barkley was a far superior rebounder.  LeBron has never averaged over sometime like 8.5 in a season while Barkley never averaged below double digits after his rookie season and put up close to 12 per game for his career.

LeBron averages 27 ppg...obviously on more shots...but is only 32 while Barkley averaged 22 despite playing until he was 37 and averaging less than 20 for his last four years.

I don't find LeBron to be a better defender or shot blocker.  Actually, Barkley averaged more steals and blocks at a similar age.

There is nothing "wrong" with being compared to Barkley because he is an all-time great.  That's what I think LeBron is, but not close to being THE greatest.
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ErieHog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2017, 08:58:18 pm »

Barkley is in the top 25 in NBA history in FG percentage.  LeBron is somewhere down in the 125-130 range at barely 50%.

Yes, as I pointed out LeBron dishes more assists, but Barkley was a far superior rebounder.  LeBron has never averaged over sometime like 8.5 in a season while Barkley never averaged below double digits after his rookie season and put up close to 12 per game for his career.

LeBron averages 27 ppg...obviously on more shots...but is only 32 while Barkley averaged 22 despite playing until he was 37 and averaging less than 20 for his last four years.

I don't find LeBron to be a better defender or shot blocker.  Actually, Barkley averaged more steals and blocks at a similar age.

There is nothing "wrong" with being compared to Barkley because he is an all-time great.  That's what I think LeBron is, but not close to being THE greatest.

I'm not sure what's more appalling-- the grasping or the simple untruths.  Yes, Barkley had a high 2pt FG rate-- but was a desperately bad 3 point shooter by modern standards, where LeBron beats him by almost 8% -  and LeBron is still better than him at the line, as well.

LeBron has more steals per game at the same point of his career, and for overall career.  Block rates are almost identical, for same time frame, though LeBron leads for full career-.

Oh-- and there isn't any doubt about the two of them as defenders--  LeBron spent a decade consistently considered among the absolute best defenders in the NBA.     He should have won DPotY in 2013 (finished 2nd), and has 5 times has been named to the 1st team All-NBA Defense team--  Barkley never was.

I'm not a LeBron fan.  I detest the guy-- but silly comparisons are just that, silly comparisons.   He and Barkley aren't in the same neighborhood--  heck,  Lebron, Russell, and MJ are pretty well a neighborhood unto themselves at this point, with LeBron having several more years to try to justify jockeying among that trio.
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2017, 10:10:11 pm »

LeBron is averaging 1.65 steals per game for his career.  Barkley averaged 1.54 despite averaging 1.3, 1.0, 1.0, and 0.7 during the four years he played after he was 32.  Before those years he averaged less than 1.6 twice, but he also had seasons of 2.2, 1.9, and 1.8.

I'm not going to multiply out the averages to come up with a per game average, but a quick glance and a basic understanding of math tells me that LeBron at 32 has not averaged significantly more steals than Barkley at 32...if he has averaged more at all.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html

You apparently don't believe rebounding is important for frontcourt players.  I do.
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ErieHog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2017, 10:39:35 pm »

LeBron is averaging 1.65 steals per game for his career.  Barkley averaged 1.54 despite averaging 1.3, 1.0, 1.0, and 0.7 during the four years he played after he was 32.  Before those years he averaged less than 1.6 twice, but he also had seasons of 2.2, 1.9, and 1.8.

I'm not going to multiply out the averages to come up with a per game average, but a quick glance and a basic understanding of math tells me that LeBron at 32 has not averaged significantly more steals than Barkley at 32...if he has averaged more at all.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html

You apparently don't believe rebounding is important for frontcourt players.  I do.


You treat LeBron as a power forward, instead of a rare 2/3 blend-  and in the modern NBA, a good 3 is as much a back court player as a front court player.       And it isn't like LeBron doesn't rebound when it is called for-- in the playoffs, he's a 9 rebound guy. 

The average differences work out to be about  .2 in LeBron's favor, by the by-  games played matter in aggregating stats

Nifty stat from this evening-

Most playoff games with 23/6/6 since 1980
1. LeBron - 96
2. Jordan - 47
3. Bird - 40
4. Kobe - 34
5. Magic - 30

Hrm.  One of these is not like the others....
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2017, 08:47:15 am »


You treat LeBron as a power forward, instead of a rare 2/3 blend-  and in the modern NBA, a good 3 is as much a back court player as a front court player.       And it isn't like LeBron doesn't rebound when it is called for-- in the playoffs, he's a 9 rebound guy. 

The average differences work out to be about  .2 in LeBron's favor, by the by-  games played matter in aggregating stats

Nifty stat from this evening-

Most playoff games with 23/6/6 since 1980
1. LeBron - 96
2. Jordan - 47
3. Bird - 40
4. Kobe - 34
5. Magic - 30

Hrm.  One of these is not like the others....


Who said anything about the position he plays?  I'm talking about greatness as a player.  Are only power forward and centers allowed to rebound?  If so Oscar Robertson didn't get the memo.

And yeah, that is a nifty stat.  Here's another one:

Most games with 38 or more points and 38 or more rebounds in a game, all-time:

Wilt Chamberlain 17
LeBron James  0
Bill Russell  0
Everyone else in NBA history  0

Here's yet another:

Most career games with 30 points and 30 rebounds:

Wilt Chamberlain 103
Nate Thurmond 4
Kevin Love  1
LeBron James 0
The rest of the NBA all-time 23

These combo stats are fun.
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RazorWest

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2017, 10:33:52 am »

Give me Lebron. All around better player. Jordan had Pippen to guard the teams best player. Lebron has never had a Pippen. The Bulls was just as good when Jordan left the first time. Lebron teams became one of the worst in the league after he left. Lebron took the Sasha Pavlovic All-Stars to the NBA finals. Jordan never made it out the first round without Pippen. I could go on and on.

I would argue that MJ made Pippen great, not the other way around
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niels_boar

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2017, 11:40:12 am »

Lebron to me is a more athletic version of Magic Johnson.  He's a great facilitator.  Nobody wins a championship by themselves, but he has to have multiple guys on the court that can score to get over the hump. I think defenses respect Lebron's shot more than they should sometimes.  On many nights when he is not in the zone, better to have him attempt a contested shot than leave an outstanding perimeter shooter open for a practice trey.  Lebron can score in bunches but not as consistently as Jordan did.  Lebron would have two fewer championships without Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving to make the big shot.

Defenses absolutely had to take the ball out of Jordan's hands to have a chance.  Also, the Jordan rules would have had the Big Boys or Knicks unable to field a team after about five minutes with the current rules. I'm skeptical that you could replace Jordan with Lebron on those Bulls rosters and still get six championships.  Lebron has a lot more offensive talent around him now than Jordan did. Jordan played with mediocre to non-scorers at both C and PF.  The other guard was usually an ace shooter that could not create his own shot.  Pippen was a better defensive player than offensive player.  Lebron has had all-star caliber scorers around him like Wade, Bosh, Allen, Irving, and Love.  Jordan was about as good as it gets on D as well. 
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ErieHog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2017, 02:04:19 pm »

Who said anything about the position he plays?  I'm talking about greatness as a player.  Are only power forward and centers allowed to rebound?  If so Oscar Robertson didn't get the memo.

And yeah, that is a nifty stat.  Here's another one:

Most games with 38 or more points and 38 or more rebounds in a game, all-time:

Wilt Chamberlain 17
LeBron James  0
Bill Russell  0
Everyone else in NBA history  0

Here's yet another:

Most career games with 30 points and 30 rebounds:

Wilt Chamberlain 103
Nate Thurmond 4
Kevin Love  1
LeBron James 0
The rest of the NBA all-time 23

These combo stats are fun.


Sure they are-  especially when you put extremes in them.   When you weigh them to all around game, though, instead of one phase or two phase, they show just how much of a force LeBron is,  and how his game grows in the postseason.

Even when you weigh it to factor what Jordan was best at-- scoring-- it still shows up starkly.  LeBron has half again as many playoff games with 30/5/5, as well.

You were all about position, and  LeBron 'underrebounding for a front court player'.       That's not his regular season job, and hasn't been, though it will become more so as he ages and loses some mobility.

Comparing him to Barkley is a joke.  Comparing him to Jordan is at least serious.
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2017, 02:19:00 pm »


Sure they are-  especially when you put extremes in them.   When you weigh them to all around game, though, instead of one phase or two phase, they show just how much of a force LeBron is,  and how his game grows in the postseason.

Even when you weigh it to factor what Jordan was best at-- scoring-- it still shows up starkly.  LeBron has half again as many playoff games with 30/5/5, as well.

You were all about position, and  LeBron 'underrebounding for a front court player'.       That's not his regular season job, and hasn't been, though it will become more so as he ages and loses some mobility.

Comparing him to Barkley is a joke.  Comparing him to Jordan is at least serious.

You're quite enamored with LeBron's game.  Good for you.  You say the comparison to Barkley is a joke.  Barkley shot a higher percentage on the offensive end.  He scored almost as many points through his early 30s although he didn't shoot as much as LeBron.  He also rebounded better on the offensive glass.

On the defensive end, we have already established that he rebounded missed shots better, stole the ball roughly as often, and blocked about as many shots.  You state that LeBron is a much better defender.  Apparently he is much better at everything other than blocking out, rebounding, playing the passing lanes, and contesting shots.

Apparently the fact that LeBron, like Westbrook, possesses the ball more than anyone in the previous history of the NBA and dishes more assists...to a surrounding cast that includes multi-occasion All-Stars like Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Love, along with one of the premier spot up three point shooters in the league in Kyle Korver...makes all the difference for you.  That's your opinion and it is certainly okay for you to have it, but at the same time "because I said he is" doesn't necessarily make it true for everyone else.
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Porky McGee

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2017, 03:40:20 pm »

Jordan is the greatest. Lebron is pushing into the top 2. Kobe shouldn't be considered, after Shaq was ran out of town the lakers missed the playoffs the next season and were the 7 seed the year after that with Kobe in his prime. Anyone denying that lebron is one of the best is out of their minds. Only player ever to record 28,000 points, 7,000 assists, 7,000 rebounds in a career. Only player to average 27/7/7 for a career. Highest WOPR (wins over replacement player) and highest +/- of all time. Already 2nd in all time playoff scoring. Possibly the best basketball IQ of any player ever.  Was hyped as the second coming when he was coming out of high school and was able to manage all of that hype and still exceed all of the expectations. Bird is the 3rd best in my opinion. My favorite stat of all time was in 1988 Jordan averaged 35ppg and was defensive player of the year in the same season lol.
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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2017, 03:46:29 pm »

1. LeBron 2. Magic  3. Jordan

I'm a Laker fan, Kobe is the most overrated player in history.  Not a top 10 player, not even top 20. 
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Hawg Red

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #136 on: May 18, 2017, 04:01:00 pm »

LeBron James has grown on me over the years as it relates to this argument. I believed LeBron was worth the hype the second I saw him play in high school but I had long held off on him approaching Jordan. But I have to ask this question because I feel like it really sticks out like a sore thumb -- which first-ballot HOFers is LeBron going to keep from winning a championship like Jordan did to Ewing, Barkley, Reggie Miller, Malone, and Stockton? Also consider Hakeem (and Drexler) only won championships when Jordan was "retired" and Gary Payton won one in 2006 at the very end of his career after Jordan had ultimately retired. So which all-time great, first-ballot HOF player(s) is LeBron going to block from winning a title? Because Jordan shut down some of the greatest players of all-time.

Both guys are superhuman, though Jordan had the more superhuman will. I fear for what Jordan would have been in LeBron's body. It would have been a sight to behold. He would have made great players quit basketball. LeBron in Jordan's body and I think he's Oscar Robertson (which is great but not scary). The game was not officiated to help Jordan succeed like the NBA has been rigged for offensive players the last 10 years. That isn't LeBron's fault but it can't be ignored.

Both guys had help, sure. But we're really going to act like Jordan had what LeBron has had the last however long since he went to Miami? Yeah, he had Pippen, who was acquired on draft night 1987 and was a big draft risk coming from Central Arkansas (at the time, an NAIA school!!!). He had Horace Grant for a time. Horace Grant or Chris Bosh/Kevin Love? Jordan eventually had Rodman, who could not be tamed by anyone other than Phil Jackson (and barely even then). LeBron has still had Dwyane Wade, Ray Allen (was a year removed from an All-Star season when he signed with Miami), Kyrie Irving, Antawn Jamison, Larry Hughes, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas in his career. Without question, LeBron lacked adequate help to win championships year-over-year at times in his career, but Jordan wasn't exactly playing on teams stocked full of badasses. Mostly role players that knew their role but he was an unstoppable force. LeBron was/is a force of nature in a way that Jordan wasn't. But there's just that special gear that Jordan had that really not else has had since, including LeBron. I can't get past it.

For the record, my all-time great top 3 is Jordan -> Wilt -> LeBron for now.

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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2017, 04:13:01 pm »

lebron is...(the) only player to average 27/7/7 for a career.

That's a nice stat and I'm sure it proves something.  If so, what do the following prove?

Jordan is the only player to average 30 points, 6 rebounds, and 5 assists.

Chamberlain is the only player to average 30 points, 23 rebounds, and 4 assists.

Oscar Robertson is the only player to average 26 points, 8 rebounds, and 10 assists.

You see, that's the thing about these made up stats such as "only player to ever" followed by a few hand picked numbers.  My favorite is baseball.  "He's batting .374 with the bases loaded, two strikes or less, against left handed pitchers, in Tuesday afternoon games against teams with red in their uniforms."

LeBron doesn't lead the NBA in any all-time category.  When you come up with a combination of three stats that together supposedly prove that he is the best, how does that "proof" work when someone like Chamberlain wipes the floor with him in two of those three categories?  Does LeBron dishing out three more assists per game overcome Wilt tripling him in rebounds?
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DLUXHOG

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #138 on: May 18, 2017, 04:53:45 pm »

MJ... saw him play in Chicago when they had what 3? back to back NBA championships?    I've never seen anyone or anything like him............
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ErieHog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2017, 05:09:33 pm »

You're quite enamored with LeBron's game.  Good for you.  You say the comparison to Barkley is a joke.  Barkley shot a higher percentage on the offensive end.  He scored almost as many points through his early 30s although he didn't shoot as much as LeBron.  He also rebounded better on the offensive glass.

On the defensive end, we have already established that he rebounded missed shots better, stole the ball roughly as often, and blocked about as many shots.  You state that LeBron is a much better defender.  Apparently he is much better at everything other than blocking out, rebounding, playing the passing lanes, and contesting shots.

Apparently the fact that LeBron, like Westbrook, possesses the ball more than anyone in the previous history of the NBA and dishes more assists...to a surrounding cast that includes multi-occasion All-Stars like Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Love, along with one of the premier spot up three point shooters in the league in Kyle Korver...makes all the difference for you.  That's your opinion and it is certainly okay for you to have it, but at the same time "because I said he is" doesn't necessarily make it true for everyone else.

If you like basketball, you should be absolutely in love with LeBron's game.    I detest the player, but my God--  that's how basketball should be, ideally, from a guy his size.

You use bad comparisons-- positional responsibilities and pace of play actually make the difference between the two even greater-  LeBron does all the same things, more efficiently, while using the ball *less* than you would anticipate for the level of production provided.

Your nonsense assertions about LeBron not being a better defender have already been buried.     You'd be laughed out of any serious conversation about basketball, saying that.

And no,  LeBron does not  'possess the ball more than anyone in the history of the game'--  his highest single season usage rate is 32nd in the history of the NBA.   Cumulatively for the career, his usage rate is 7th--  well behind the titan of usage, Jordan, for example.     The playoffs aren't any different;  his Usage Rates are still lower than that Jordan/Kobe/Iversion tier,  where LeBron remains 6th.

The facts are what make the comparison specious at best, and disingenuous at worst.

He's the most productive player in the history of the NBA.     He does it with and without the ball, on both ends of the court-- though his defense is showing signs of aging, and his mobility is going to shift how he plays, to where his rebounding rates should climb a bit more.

I'll be very glad when he is gone from the game, but it is stone stupid to not have him in the Top 5 players of all time at this point.    And it's going to be incredibly hard, barring a severe injury, to not have him as a serious candidate to be the best to have ever played the game.
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Porky McGee

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #140 on: May 18, 2017, 05:30:33 pm »

That's a nice stat and I'm sure it proves something.  If so, what do the following prove?

Jordan is the only player to average 30 points, 6 rebounds, and 5 assists.

Chamberlain is the only player to average 30 points, 23 rebounds, and 4 assists.

Oscar Robertson is the only player to average 26 points, 8 rebounds, and 10 assists.

You see, that's the thing about these made up stats such as "only player to ever" followed by a few hand picked numbers.  My favorite is baseball.  "He's batting .374 with the bases loaded, two strikes or less, against left handed pitchers, in Tuesday afternoon games against teams with red in their uniforms."

LeBron doesn't lead the NBA in any all-time category.  When you come up with a combination of three stats that together supposedly prove that he is the best, how does that "proof" work when someone like Chamberlain wipes the floor with him in two of those three categories?  Does LeBron dishing out three more assists per game overcome Wilt tripling him in rebounds?
Do you want to start comparing when wilt played vs when Jordan or lebron played? The level of competition when wilt played is extremely sub par, not to mention the amount of rebounding opportunities when wilt played were far greater (teams took on average almost 30 shots per game more then, than they do now).There is a reason that the top 4 all time leading rebounders played in the 60s.Saying "lebron doesn't lead the league in any all time stat" is ludicrous considering his career is nowhere near being over. Not saying wilt isn't one of the best. He's a top 5 center of all time. You sound like you're smart, you SHOULD be able to watch lebron play and tell how special he is as a player. He is a step ahead of everyone at all times. The way he anticipates what is about to happen is second to none. He makes the right play every time.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 05:48:35 pm by Porky McGee »
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sadhogfan

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2017, 05:44:55 pm »

If you like basketball, you should be absolutely in love with LeBron's game.    I detest the player, but my God--  that's how basketball should be, ideally, from a guy his size.

And why do you hate him so much, exactly?
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ErieHog

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #142 on: May 18, 2017, 09:38:03 pm »

And why do you hate him so much, exactly?

A Low character flopper, who moves where the odds suit him best instead of pulling a franchise up with him.

I was soured on him early by his whining;  by the time of the Decision,  it closed the book on LeBron for me;  when he went back to Cleveland, got Blatt fired undeservedly by trying to take control of the team-- it didn't rehabilitate him at all.     Throw in his SJW flavor, and I'll be very happy when he has no platform to use.
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Ben

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #143 on: May 18, 2017, 09:57:29 pm »

Why is this a debate? Jordan all day. Id rather debate Jordan vs Magic or Kareem
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Hogs49ers

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #144 on: May 19, 2017, 01:26:03 am »

Here's a fun stat I just found.

Michael Jordan has played in 37 playoff series and his team has gone on to win 30 of them.

LeBron James has played in 37 playoff series and his team has gone on to win 30 of them.

Through his first 10 trips to the playoffs, Michael Jordan won 3 rings.

Through his first 10 trips to the playoffs, LeBron James won 3 rings.

MJ lost in the first round 3 times while LeBron never has, though Lebron has lost 4 times in the finals while MJ never did. I guess some people just value losing in the first round more than losing in the finals.

Other stats:

LeBron James, in 11 less games played, and as a forward, has 1800 more assists than the guard. Give LeBron those points and he'd already have more career points than MJ.

MJ was so much better in the playoffs, which is why he only shot .004 (.332 vs .328) better from three, but was 0.021 (.503 vs .524) worse from 2, while having less rebounds, assists, and blocks than LeBron. So while MJ did take more shots, LeBron was better at essentially everything else (aside from .3 steals per game.)

And most of all, LeBron never got bored of competing, something MJ did (twice) only to realize he was a dumb@ss (twice). But oh yeah, MJ is the greatest because he was a competitor and stuff.

I think it is pretty funny that none of the "Jordan" people even replied to this post...
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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #145 on: May 19, 2017, 10:10:40 am »

Do you want to start comparing when wilt played vs when Jordan or lebron played? The level of competition when wilt played is extremely sub par, not to mention the amount of rebounding opportunities when wilt played were far greater (teams took on average almost 30 shots per game more then, than they do now).There is a reason that the top 4 all time leading rebounders played in the 60s.Saying "lebron doesn't lead the league in any all time stat" is ludicrous considering his career is nowhere near being over. Not saying wilt isn't one of the best. He's a top 5 center of all time. You sound like you're smart, you SHOULD be able to watch lebron play and tell how special he is as a player. He is a step ahead of everyone at all times. The way he anticipates what is about to happen is second to none. He makes the right play every time.

Who would you say have been the best teams, best players, and best defenders in the Eastern Conference during the bulk of LeBron's career?  Since his "incredible" streak of Finals appearances started, he has played on teams that were put together for the sole purpose of placing All-Stars around him.  In Miami it was Wade, who is one of the top 25-50 players in NBA history, and Bosh.  In Cleveland it is Irving, an elite guard, and Kevin Love, who in his last three full seasons before coming to Cleveland to be with LeBron averaged 24 points and almost 14 rebounds.

Let me repeat that.  24 points, 14 rebounds.  Who else in the NBA has put up number like that over a three year period?  That's the guy who is the third option on this Cleveland team.

Do you think LeBron would have made it to six or seven Finals in a row if he had played in a conference with a team that in any given year had five to eight Hall of Famers on it, like the Celtics did from the mid 50s to the late 60s?  Or even the Pistons with Isaiah, Rick Mahorn, Rodman, Laimbeer, and Vinnie Johnson?  How about if when/if he got to the Finals he went up against the Lakers...either the Chamberlain/Jerry West/Elgin Baylor version or the Kareem/Magic/James Worthy crew?  Or maybe the Spurs when David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Ginobili were in their primes?  The NBA features a lot of outstanding individual talent these days, but where are the great teams?  You've got the Warriors, the Cavaliers, and...who?

The Celtics have home court advantage in the East and when I watch them I realize that their only chance of winning against a good team is for Isaiah Thomas to shoot lights out from three and for one of their role players...Crowder, for instance...to do the same.  They may be the least impressive "best record in the conference" team I have ever seen.

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EastexHawg

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #146 on: May 19, 2017, 10:23:53 am »

I think it is pretty funny that none of the "Jordan" people even replied to this post...

Okay, I'll reply.  Jordan has the highest career scoring average of any player in NBA history, and during the playoffs he elevated his game and dominated at an even higher level.  He was one of the great defenders in history as well, as evidenced by nine first team All-Defensive Team honors and an NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

More importantly, in the last six full seasons he played before his comeback at age 38 and after four years out of the league...he won the NBA championship.  He didn't just make it to the Finals, he won the championship.  And...he was the MVP every time.

Is that enough for you?
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Porky McGee

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #147 on: May 19, 2017, 11:34:08 am »

Who would you say have been the best teams, best players, and best defenders in the Eastern Conference during the bulk of LeBron's career?  Since his "incredible" streak of Finals appearances started, he has played on teams that were put together for the sole purpose of placing All-Stars around him.  In Miami it was Wade, who is one of the top 25-50 players in NBA history, and Bosh.  In Cleveland it is Irving, an elite guard, and Kevin Love, who in his last three full seasons before coming to Cleveland to be with LeBron averaged 24 points and almost 14 rebounds.

Let me repeat that.  24 points, 14 rebounds.  Who else in the NBA has put up number like that over a three year period?  That's the guy who is the third option on this Cleveland team.

Do you think LeBron would have made it to six or seven Finals in a row if he had played in a conference with a team that in any given year had five to eight Hall of Famers on it, like the Celtics did from the mid 50s to the late 60s?  Or even the Pistons with Isaiah, Rick Mahorn, Rodman, Laimbeer, and Vinnie Johnson?  How about if when/if he got to the Finals he went up against the Lakers...either the Chamberlain/Jerry West/Elgin Baylor version or the Kareem/Magic/James Worthy crew?  Or maybe the Spurs when David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Ginobili were in their primes?  The NBA features a lot of outstanding individual talent these days, but where are the great teams?  You've got the Warriors, the Cavaliers, and...who?

The Celtics have home court advantage in the East and when I watch them I realize that their only chance of winning against a good team is for Isaiah Thomas to shoot lights out from three and for one of their role players...Crowder, for instance...to do the same.  They may be the least impressive "best record in the conference" team I have ever seen.
I never knocked jordans level of competition, that was the league at its peak. So bringing up the magic/Kareem/worthy lakers and the bad boys doesn't make sense. I was talking about wilts competition. Let's talk 2007. At 22 years old lebron carried a team whose 2nd best player was mo Williams/zydrunas ilgauskas to the finals. Yeah I know, they got swept, but they should've gotten swept. Also in 2015 Kyrie and Love both missed a good chunk of the playoffs and lebron backpacked that team and took the warriors to 6 games. There is also no denying the level he played at in the 2016 finals, it was scary. The cavs did take out a good pistons team in the eastern conference finals. For right now Lebron is pushing into the top 2. Jordan still holds on to the title of GOAT. But their resumes are very similar at lebron a current age, other than lebron is accumulating better all around statistics at a younger age. No telling what mike would have done if he didn't retire twice in the 90s.

Ps you're spot on with the celtics, weakest 1 seed in a long long time.
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Kevin McPherson

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #148 on: May 19, 2017, 12:44:59 pm »

MJ's got the stats (reg and post season) for an argument for GOAT, but so does LBJ and a few other players. The clear separation, though, is what MJ did in the postseason. Once he got to the Finals, he owned them. 6 out of 6 with no game 7s, and he played in a much tougher Eastern Conference gauntlet to get to the Finals each year than LBJ does. MJ also didn't play on teams loaded with all-stars / all-pros / future HOFers like some of the other greats have had while racking up titles (Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, for example). LBJ has actually had more all-star / all-pro help than MJ had when you look at supporting cast (not a big advantage, but an advantage nonetheless), although he too has not had rosters full of all-stars like others had.

For me, this comes down to being the best when the dust settles for titles ... afterall, that's what they play for ultimately. Not only did MJ win them all  once he got there 6 times, he likely would have gone 10 for 10 if not for retiring early TWICE. LBJ's had too many lapses as a player in big moments throughout his career -- and as recently as 2 of the last 3 Finals -- to make a good case for GOAT on the same planet that MJ played on. He's 3 of 7 in Finals, and needed a collapse by SA to not be 2 of 7. A lot of that coming up short was on him, too. So goat, yeah, but not GOAT.

Now, that's where things stand today. If LBJ rings up 3-4 more titles before he's done, I'd have to look at the entire arc from that vantage point and re-evaluate.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 01:06:34 pm by HOGdayafternoon »
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DLUXHOG

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Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #149 on: May 19, 2017, 12:48:05 pm »

Okay, I'll reply.  Jordan has the highest career scoring average of any player in NBA history, and during the playoffs he elevated his game and dominated at an even higher level.  He was one of the great defenders in history as well, as evidenced by nine first team All-Defensive Team honors and an NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

More importantly, in the last six full seasons he played before his comeback at age 38 and after four years out of the league...he won the NBA championship.  He didn't just make it to the Finals, he won the championship.  And...he was the MVP every time.

Is that enough for you?
as I've said earlier, I've never seen anyone or anything remotely close to MJ............
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