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  • #1 by snoot hoggy hog on 16 Apr 2017
  • I know its different eras but I would have loved to see this match up. Remember Robertson was one of 5 Nba players (may have changed) to notch a quad double. Who you got?

  • #2 by fullfan on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook just completed a Historical, legendary season.  Season not a game or two but the greatest individual season ever played in the NBA!!   Really, who you got??
  • #3 by ShadowHawg on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook just completed a Historical, legendary season.  Season not a game or two but the greatest individual season ever played in the NBA!!   Really, who you got??

    Robertson was one of the greatest defensive players of all time.
  • #4 by Hawg Red on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook just completed a Historical, legendary season.  Season not a game or two but the greatest individual season ever played in the NBA!!   Really, who you got??

    Alvin Robertson in his prime was an all-time great defender. Westbrook plays in an era geared to allow him to thrive offensively. It's a fair battle to propose.
  • #5 by snoot hoggy hog on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook just completed a Historical, legendary season.  Season not a game or two but the greatest individual season ever played in the NBA!!   Really, who you got??

    Alvin Robertson won Nba's first Most Improved Player and he won Defensive Player of the Year at the same damn time!
  • #6 by snoot hoggy hog on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook just completed a Historical, legendary season.  Season not a game or two but the greatest individual season ever played in the NBA!!   Really, who you got??

    It took half an arena to stop Alvin Robertson from killing Shaq. Who you got?

  • #7 by yraciv on 17 Apr 2017
  • 1 on 1 you'd take away Russ's passing ability "his best asset", but come on the numbers don't back it up that they are still even close without it. Westbrook is a better rebounder, almost even defender, and can actually hit the 3 ball. From an advanced metric view, really the only thing Alvin has going for him is he steals the ball at a slightly higher clip. Westbrook is streaky as hell and can be shut down on occasion by a good defender like P Bev did last night, but throughout a season there is no question his impact/talent is on another level.
  • #8 by zebradynasty on 17 Apr 2017
  • I like Alvin but Westbrook is the most athletic player in the NBA. Alvin wouldn't stop him.
  • #9 by Sho Nuff on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook is all about the stat sheet.  His numbers are great, but he plays no defense.  Whoever he is guarding gets open looks all night while he is busy crashing the boards.  Everyone is impressed with his rebounding numbers, but guards shouldn't be rebounding like that.  The first priority should be covering your man and letting the bigs pull down the boards.  He has incredible numbers this year, but he it seems like a house of cards.
  • #10 by ShadowHawg on 17 Apr 2017
  • I like Alvin but Westbrook is the most athletic player in the NBA. Alvin wouldn't stop him.

    Alvin could body him up because he was way stronger and could easily bump him off his driving angles as well as block him out. He would absolutely cut into Westbrook's numbers.

    Analytics can be so stupid. They are good for EXPLAINING things and garbage for predicting things. They have their place but observation combined with analytics is the best use for both.
  • #11 by snoot hoggy hog on 17 Apr 2017
  • I like Alvin but Westbrook is the most athletic player in the NBA. Alvin wouldn't stop him.

    "n/m" -Lebron James
  • #12 by EastexHawg on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook just completed a Historical, legendary season.  Season not a game or two but the greatest individual season ever played in the NBA!!   Really, who you got??

    Greatest individual season in the NBA?  Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50.4 points and 25.7 rebounds while playing every minute of every game.  The NBA didn't keep blocked shot stats back then, but in 112 games for which the stat was recorded Wilt averaged 8.8 per game.  He had 23 blocks on Christmas Day of 1968 and another game of 44 points, 39 rebounds, and 12 blocked shots.  That's on top of game highs of 100 points and 55 rebounds, with the 55 boards coming against Bill Russell and the Celtics. 

    Who you got?
  • #13 by EastexHawg on 17 Apr 2017
  • This is a Chamberlain story I had never read:

    Quote
    Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career was over.

    On a summer day in the early 1980s at the Men's Gym on the UCLA campus, Chamberlain showed up to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. Brown was the coach of the Bruins back then, and Chamberlain often drove to UCLA from his home in Bel Air, Calif.

    "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at the age of 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt.

    "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one (of Johnson's) shots get to the rim."

    Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, a decade removed from one of the greatest careers any basketball player ever produced. But the advancing years meant little to Chamberlain in terms of physical conditioning.
  • #14 by Rusty Shackleford on 17 Apr 2017
  • Greatest individual season in the NBA?  Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50.4 points and 25.7 rebounds while playing every minute of every game.  The NBA didn't keep blocked shot stats back then, but in 112 games for which the stat was recorded Wilt averaged 8.8 per game.  He had 23 blocks on Christmas Day of 1968 and another game of 44 points, 39 rebounds, and 12 blocked shots.  That's on top of game highs of 100 points and 55 rebounds, with the 55 boards coming against Bill Russell and the Celtics. 

    Who you got?

    What he say.

  • #15 by yraciv on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook is all about the stat sheet.  His numbers are great, but he plays no defense.  Whoever he is guarding gets open looks all night while he is busy crashing the boards.  Everyone is impressed with his rebounding numbers, but guards shouldn't be rebounding like that.  The first priority should be covering your man and letting the bigs pull down the boards.  He has incredible numbers this year, but he it seems like a house of cards.

    Misconception on the defensive end. His Defensive Win Shares this year was 7th in the NBA. Right behind Kawhi Leonard.  Last year he was tied with Lebron at 12th.

    Russ may get trigger happy with shots, but his team doesn't have many other scoring options.
  • #16 by sadhogfan on 17 Apr 2017
  • Is Robertson allowed to play the physical sort of defense played in the NBA in the mid 80s to mid 90s, or is he playing according to the standards of today?
  • #17 by ErieHog on 17 Apr 2017
  • Is Robertson allowed to play the physical sort of defense played in the NBA in the mid 80s to mid 90s, or is he playing according to the standards of today?

    It won't matter.  He'll get blown by off the bounce-- and he's giving up nearly 20 pounds, so don't use that  'stronger' nonsense.  There's no stronger pound for pound guy in pro ball right now than Westbrook.

    I love Alvin,  so lets not try to compare him to a guy who has already punched a Hall of Fame ticket.
  • #18 by (notOM)Rebel123 on 17 Apr 2017
  • Alvin Robertson won Nba's first Most Improved Player and he won Defensive Player of the Year at the same damn time!

    Sidney Moncrief won the Defensive Player of the Year twice. FWIW.
  • #19 by snoot hoggy hog on 17 Apr 2017
  • Is Robertson allowed to play the physical sort of defense played in the NBA in the mid 80s to mid 90s, or is he playing according to the standards of today?

    See Patrick Beverley
  • #20 by snoot hoggy hog on 17 Apr 2017
  • #21 by SONofHAM on 17 Apr 2017
  • Westbrook just completed a Historical, legendary season.  Season not a game or two but the greatest individual season ever played in the NBA!!   Really, who you got??
    offensively
  • #22 by EastexHawg on 17 Apr 2017
  • I just ran across a few more Chamberlain numbers.  During the 1961-1962 season Wilt not only scored 100 points against the Knicks​, he also put up 78 points and 43 rebounds against the Lakers and 73 with 36 boards against Chicago.  In 80 games that season he scored 50 or more 45 times and 60 or more 14 times.

    Greatest season, offensive or otherwise for Westbrook?  Not even close.
  • #23 by HOGINTENNESSEE on 18 Apr 2017
  • 1 on 1 you'd take away Russ's passing ability "his best asset", but come on the numbers don't back it up that they are still even close without it. Westbrook is a better rebounder, almost even defender, and can actually hit the 3 ball. From an advanced metric view, really the only thing Alvin has going for him is he steals the ball at a slightly higher clip. Westbrook is streaky as hell and can be shut down on occasion by a good defender like P Bev did last night, but throughout a season there is no question his impact/talent is on another level.

    I agree with almost all of this. Accept the almost even defender part. Alvin was a way better defender
  • #24 by Hawg Red on 18 Apr 2017
  • 1 on 1 you'd take away Russ's passing ability "his best asset", but come on the numbers don't back it up that they are still even close without it. Westbrook is a better rebounder, almost even defender, and can actually hit the 3 ball. From an advanced metric view, really the only thing Alvin has going for him is he steals the ball at a slightly higher clip. Westbrook is streaky as hell and can be shut down on occasion by a good defender like P Bev did last night, but throughout a season there is no question his impact/talent is on another level.

    I have to question your knowledge based on the statement that Westbrook is "almost even defender" to a player widely accepted as one of the greatest defensive guards in NBA history. That some straight bullsh...
  • #25 by yraciv on 18 Apr 2017
  • I have to question your knowledge based on the statement that Westbrook is "almost even defender" to a player widely accepted as one of the greatest defensive guards in NBA history. That some straight bullsh...

    Advanced defensive metrics don't back up that logic. Their Defensive Win Share is almost identical and Robertson/Westbrook have had similar length careers to this point. The eye test may tell you and NBA historians that Robertson was better, but I follow the advanced metrics most of the time. I never saw alvin play other than tape, so all I have to go by is what the stats tell me.
  • #26 by ErieHog on 18 Apr 2017
  • I just ran across a few more Chamberlain numbers.  During the 1961-1962 season Wilt not only scored 100 points against the Knicks​, he also put up 78 points and 43 rebounds against the Lakers and 73 with 36 boards against Chicago.  In 80 games that season he scored 50 or more 45 times and 60 or more 14 times.

    Greatest season, offensive or otherwise for Westbrook?  Not even close.

    Pace matters.   Shots matter.  They're rarer than ever in the NBA;   there was an interesting set of comps run recently, regarding the differential in pace and efficiency, that compared the year of the Russell MVP/Wilt Averages 50/Robertson averages a triple double, and the current game;   even if Westbrook saw an efficiency drop off of 5% on greater volume and pace, he would have averaged  53/17/17 if he played as many possessions as Oscar or Wilt.

    Is that better than Wilt?  Maybe, maybe not- but its pretty danged close.
  • #27 by Rusty Shackleford on 18 Apr 2017
  • Pace matters.   Shots matter.  They're rarer than ever in the NBA;   there was an interesting set of comps run recently, regarding the differential in pace and efficiency, that compared the year of the Russell MVP/Wilt Averages 50/Robertson averages a triple double, and the current game;   even if Westbrook saw an efficiency drop off of 5% on greater volume and pace, he would have averaged  53/17/17 if he played as many possessions as Oscar or Wilt.

    Is that better than Wilt?  Maybe, maybe not- but its pretty danged close.
    How would Westbrook do if they called walking and palming the ball like they did back then? What would someone like Dr. J have done if he were allowed an extra two or three steps, no hand checking, and allowed to palm the ball? It's all relevant to the times and rules of the era. If going strictly by numbers, Wilt is the best.
  • #28 by King Kong on 18 Apr 2017
  • Advanced defensive metrics don't back up that logic. Their Defensive Win Share is almost identical and Robertson/Westbrook have had similar length careers to this point. The eye test may tell you and NBA historians that Robertson was better, but I follow the advanced metrics most of the time. I never saw alvin play other than tape, so all I have to go by is what the stats tell me.

    I don't think you understand how unreal Alvin's steal stats are
  • #29 by jbcarol on 18 Apr 2017


  • Alvin Robertson records a quadruple double
  • #30 by EastexHawg on 18 Apr 2017
  • Pace matters.   Shots matter.  They're rarer than ever in the NBA;   there was an interesting set of comps run recently, regarding the differential in pace and efficiency, that compared the year of the Russell MVP/Wilt Averages 50/Robertson averages a triple double, and the current game;   even if Westbrook saw an efficiency drop off of 5% on greater volume and pace, he would have averaged  53/17/17 if he played as many possessions as Oscar or Wilt.

    Is that better than Wilt?  Maybe, maybe not- but its pretty danged close.

    In the first place, there is a difference between "would have been projected to do it" and "actually did it".  We don't have to project Wilt's numbers.  He actually put them up.

    In the second place, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 minutes in a 48 minute game.  He played every minute of every game, including some that went to overtime.  He also never, not once in his entire career, fouled out of a game.  Is Westbrook capable of playing 48.5 minutes per game for an entire season?

    Chamberlain is the only man ever to lead the league in the three major categories...scoring, rebounding, and assists.  So far Westbrook has led in one of those.  Wilt averaged more rebounds for his career, 22.9, than Westbrook has averaged points (22.7).

    Let's also keep in mind that Westbrook is in the prime of his career while Chamberlain played until he was a relatively old man with bad knees.  Westbrook has played nine seasons and to date is averaging 22.7 points, 6.2 rebounds, and 7.9 assists.  After his first nine seasons Chamberlain was averaging 36.0 points, 24.7 rebounds, and 4.5 assists.  If blocked shots had been an official statistic Wilt's would have been off the charts.

    I see very little comparison.  "If he keeps up the pace" is brought up for discussion every year in every sport.  Tiger Woods was going to shatter Jack Nicklaus' record for major victories based on his "pace".  Actually doing it has to be valued much above "could have done it".
  • #31 by ErieHog on 18 Apr 2017
  • How would Westbrook do if they called walking and palming the ball like they did back then? What would someone like Dr. J have done if he were allowed an extra two or three steps, no hand checking, and allowed to palm the ball? It's all relevant to the times and rules of the era. If going strictly by numbers, Wilt is the best.

    He'd do just fine--  he'd  crush people with the no-offensive goaltending, particularly on put backs;  he'd shoot 90% from the line, if he'd be allowed to jump toward the basket on FTA.     

    The rules advantages are a big two way street.
  • #32 by ErieHog on 18 Apr 2017
  • In the first place, there is a difference between "would have been projected to do it" and "actually did it".  We don't have to project Wilt's numbers.  He actually put them up.

    In the second place, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 minutes in a 48 minute game.  He played every minute of every game, including some that went to overtime.  He also never, not once in his entire career, fouled out of a game.  Is Westbrook capable of playing 48.5 minutes per game for an entire season?

    Chamberlain is the only man ever to lead the league in the three major categories...scoring, rebounding, and assists.  So far Westbrook has led in one of those.  Wilt averaged more rebounds for his career, 22.9, than Westbrook has averaged points (22.7).

    Let's also keep in mind that Westbrook is in the prime of his career while Chamberlain played until he was a relatively old man with bad knees.  Westbrook has played nine seasons and to date is averaging 22.7 points, 6.2 rebounds, and 7.9 assists.  After his first nine seasons Chamberlain was averaging 36.0 points, 24.7 rebounds, and 4.5 assists.  If blocked shots had been an official statistic Wilt's would have been off the charts.

    I see very little comparison.  "If he keeps up the pace" is brought up for discussion every year in every sport.  Tiger Woods was going to shatter Jack Nicklaus' record for major victories based on his "pace".  Actually doing it has to be valued much above "could have done it".

    We don't have to  'would have done it'--  we can do with  'what he did' --- and compare it to 'what Wilt did'-- and per play, Westbrook was probably slightly better.

  • #33 by EastexHawg on 18 Apr 2017
  • We don't have to  'would have done it'--  we can do with  'what he did' --- and compare it to 'what Wilt did'-- and per play, Westbrook was probably slightly better.

    If you really believe Westbrook is better than Chamberlain, or even that his current season is better than 50 points and 26 boards per game...with what we can probably surmise was between 8 and 10 blocks per game...I'll know in the future to disregard anything you say about basketball.

    Wilt's points per game alone almost matched Westbrook's combined totals for points, rebounds, and assists.  Throw in 26 boards per game and enough blocked shots to double the league leader in most seasons...and it's really pretty difficult to believe someone who offers that opinion has ever watched basketball.
  • #34 by ErieHog on 18 Apr 2017
  • If you really believe Westbrook is better than Chamberlain, or even that his current season is better than 50 points and 26 boards per game...with what we can probably surmise was between 8 and 10 blocks per game...I'll know in the future to disregard anything you say about basketball.

    Wilt's points per game alone almost matched Westbrook's combined totals for points, rebounds, and assists.  Throw in 26 boards per game and enough blocked shots to double the league leader in most seasons...and it's really pretty difficult to believe someone who offers that opinion has ever watched basketball.

    Its pretty hard to believe that anyone can't understand how numbers are easier to boost, when the game essentially gets 25% more plays.

    If you honestly think that the strange numbers of that era of basketball were not related to the unreal pace of play,  there's no helping that-  there's a reason why everyone in the League calls the '62 season a watershed--  6 of the top 50 offensive seasons in the -history- of basketball occurred that year-- whereas only one happened in 2017.

    Apples to apples, the years are extremely comparable.    You give each guy the same number of chances, and the productivity is pretty even.   If you can't understand that,  you have no appreciation of the game of basketball.
  • #35 by EastexHawg on 18 Apr 2017
  • I understand two things.  Russell Westbrook plays about 36 minutes per game.  To expect him to play another 12-13 minutes, meaning he would get no rest at all...for the entire season...and keep up the same ratios of productivity is unrealistic.

    I also know that in the limited amount of research I have done I only see one instance of a player other than Chamberlain scoring 50 points and recording 25 or more rebounds in a single game, that being Chris Webber with 51 and 26.

    Wilt averaged those numbers over the course of an entire season.
  • #36 by ErieHog on 18 Apr 2017
  • I understand two things.  Russell Westbrook plays about 36 minutes per game.  To expect him to play another 12-13 minutes, meaning he would get no rest at all...for the entire season...and keep up the same ratios of productivity is unrealistic.

    I also know that in the limited amount of research I have done I only see one instance of a player other than Chamberlain scoring 50 points and recording 25 or more rebounds in a single game, that being Chris Webber with 51 and 26.

    Wilt averaged those numbers over the course of an entire season.

    How those numbers happens matters a great deal--  mind, even with the diminished minutes, Westbrook has been insanely more productive than anyone who has played guard in the history of the NBA.

    The most basic unit of basketball is the possession- it is the most apples to apples comparison of productivity.   Possession for possession, the two are pretty much identical.

    Per 100 possessions, this is how the two years stack up:

    44.8/12.7/14.7
    40.6/20.7/1.9

    Russ has been a slightly better scorer,  Wilt a better rebounder,  with Russ walking away in assists but also getting dwarfed in blocks, but likely edging Wilt in steals- the NBA didn't record either of those stats consistently in '62.

    The two years are extremely similar, except oriented towards their respective positions-  ball dominant guard, and ball dominant center.





  • #37 by Rusty Shackleford on 18 Apr 2017
  • Russell Westbrook would kick Chuck Norris's butt and Tim Tebow's butt at the same time. He is even tougher than Bill Brasky!
  • #38 by EastexHawg on 18 Apr 2017
  • Russell Westbrook would kick Chuck Norris's butt and Tim Tebow's butt at the same time. He is even tougher than Bill Brasky!

    And he wants his teammates to get out of the way so he can do it...

    http://amp.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2017/01/russell_westbrook_averages_a_triple_double_is_he_padding_his_stats.html
  • #39 by EastexHawg on 18 Apr 2017
  • Over 75% of his rebounds are uncontested, and his teammates say they are getting out of the way to let him pick them up by design?

    Interesting is one way to describe this.  I won't say what the others are.

    http://fansided.com/2016/12/05/nylon-calculus-westbrook-triple-doubles/amp/
  • #40 by outlawhogeywells on 19 Apr 2017
  • IN a fight Alvin wins everytime
  • #41 by ShadowHawg on 19 Apr 2017
  • How those numbers happens matters a great deal--  mind, even with the diminished minutes, Westbrook has been insanely more productive than anyone who has played guard in the history of the NBA.

    The most basic unit of basketball is the possession- it is the most apples to apples comparison of productivity.   Possession for possession, the two are pretty much identical.

    Per 100 possessions, this is how the two years stack up:

    44.8/12.7/14.7
    40.6/20.7/1.9

    Russ has been a slightly better scorer,  Wilt a better rebounder,  with Russ walking away in assists but also getting dwarfed in blocks, but likely edging Wilt in steals- the NBA didn't record either of those stats consistently in '62.

    The two years are extremely similar, except oriented towards their respective positions-  ball dominant guard, and ball dominant center.

    Except Westbrook dominates the ball as a guard while Wilt had to rely on others to get him the ball. Wilt would have to.be far more efficient due to having the ball for fewer seconds per possession on offense and having fewer opportunities for assists.
  • #42 by ErieHog on 19 Apr 2017
  • Except Westbrook dominates the ball as a guard while Wilt had to rely on others to get him the ball. Wilt would have to.be far more efficient due to having the ball for fewer seconds per possession on offense and having fewer opportunities for assists.

    Not really, no.  Wilt was much *less* efficient;  his numbers are built on volume, more than anything else.

    When you compare apples to apples, the two are very close.
  • #43 by ShadowHawg on 19 Apr 2017
  • Not really, no.  Wilt was much *less* efficient;  his numbers are built on volume, more than anything else.

    When you compare apples to apples, the two are very close.

    The problem with analytics raises it's ugly head again.

    Comparing front court players stats with backcourt players in a static manner isn't apples to apples. Way too many differences.

    Backcourt guys get more open looks. Frontcourt are closely guarded more often. Etc, etc, etc, etc

    Having the ball in your hands much more is worth a ton I the world of stats.

    Numbers are only as good as the quality of the inputs. Garbage in, garbage out.

    Hillary would be POTUS if the election had been based off her campaign's numbers. Their numbers were gold until they were proven wrong by actual results.

    A guy who can pound the ball for 24 seconds while probing a defense is not an apples to apples comparison with a guy who had about 2 seconds before the double team comes. Post players are easier to block out than perimeter player. No three point line which has made for more long rebounds, etc, ad nauseam
  • #44 by ErieHog on 19 Apr 2017
  • The problem with analytics raises it's ugly head again.

    Comparing front court players stats with backcourt players in a static manner isn't apples to apples. Way too many differences.

    Backcourt guys get more open looks. Frontcourt are closely guarded more often. Etc, etc, etc, etc

    Having the ball in your hands much more is worth a ton I the world of stats.

    Numbers are only as good as the quality of the inputs. Garbage in, garbage out.

    Hillary would be POTUS if the election had been based off her campaign's numbers. Their numbers were gold until they were proven wrong by actual results.

    A guy who can pound the ball for 24 seconds while probing a defense is not an apples to apples comparison with a guy who had about 2 seconds before the double team comes. Post players are easier to block out than perimeter player. No three point line which has made for more long rebounds, etc, ad nauseam

    Nobody in the game pounds the ball in iso for 20 seconds. Nobody.

    The problem isn't analytics; its what you say you are trying to measure.     Wilt's tip in points shouldn't be held against him, nor should his shorter average FGA distance--  but it doesn't tell you what you want to measure either.

    Possessions are the common denominator, and the great levelers of all things basketball.     


  • #45 by jacksonhawg on 22 Apr 2017
  • The real question is this: who is ever going to come close to Wilt's record of bagging 20,000 chicks?
  • #46 by snoot hoggy hog on 22 Apr 2017
  • The real question is this: who is ever going to come close to Wilt's record of bagging 20,000 chicks?

    AC Green
  • #47 by HOGINTENNESSEE on 22 Apr 2017
  • #48 by FineAsSwine on 22 Apr 2017
  • Yep. He is only 19,999 away

    He probably just starts slow in the first half and then turns up the heat in the second half. Just chipping away a little at a time and then after getting into their legs, hit 'em with the full court press. He'll wipe that deficit out in no time.
  • #49 by justmakeit2thebcs on 22 Apr 2017
  • Knowing Alvin, he is SHDH at the OP.  Alvin was very good, Russell is great.  BTW, Moncreif was an even better defender than Robertson.
  • #50 by WBOBO on 22 Apr 2017
  • I would take Alvin, Darrell Walker, and Corey Beck in the same lineup at the same time.  Callipairi
    thinks he is great, he isn't.
    i
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