Quit dogging the team

[HogNuttz]

Last year people expected more than a back door into the NCAA tourney and the majority of the people placed the blame on Heath for not living upto expectations.  This year we return everybody so one would logically assume we should be significantly better than last years team.  But were not.  Do we blame the coach again.  Nope.  Everyone is blaming the players.  They are all selfish, or have attitude problems, or they are all "me" players.

Last years shortcomings were the coaches fault, this year its the players.  What is the difference other than the popularity of the coach?

[HawgAdvocate]

Last year people expected more than a back door into the NCAA tourney and the majority of the people placed the blame on Heath for not living upto expectations.  This year we return everybody so one would logically assume we should be significantly better than last years team.  But were not.  Do we blame the coach again.  Nope.  Everyone is blaming the players.  They are all selfish, or have attitude problems, or they are all "me" players.

Last years shortcomings were the coaches fault, this year its the players.  What is the difference other than the popularity of the coach?

Hello, the players had no respect for Stan Heath. Townes disrespected him in the middle of a game. Multiple players considered transferring. When Heath had his going away party, only two players showed up. Fans weren't coming to games anymore. The players didn't like each other. Who put this team together?

Stan Heath.

[HogNuttz]

Hello, the players had no respect for Stan Heath. Townes disrespected him in the middle of a game. Multiple players considered transferring. When Heath had his going away party, only two players showed up. Fans weren't coming to games anymore. The players didn't like each other. Who put this team together?

Stan Heath.

So if all this is true (and I'm not saying its not), then why are they not playing better for a new coach; a coach they respect more, a coach that isn't getting disrespected in the middle of games, and why aren't they playing better when 17,000+ show up for a game?

[TuckFexas]

Folks will quit "dogging" the team when they quit "dogging" it on the court.

[HogNuttz]

The million $$$$$ question?

I've read lot's of posts and listened to lot's of commentary. I think the players are the only ones to answer that question.

Maybe it ain't the players.

Folks will quit "dogging" the team when they quit "dogging" it on the court.

So last year people should have been dogging the players and not the coach right?

[HawgAdvocate]

Maybe it ain't the players.

So last year people should have been dogging the players and not the coach right?

If the players don't like each other, which was factual as of last season, and they didn't respect Heath, how can you blame Pelphrey when he neither A) had anything to do with bringing these contrasting personalities together and B) can't be held responsible for not being able to mend all the broken fences in six months. It's not as if he also had to go out and sign six players, all of which he'd never spoken to, before November.

You keep wanting to blame Pel, when it's painfully obvious that these kids have had internal issues for quite some time now, and a new coach isn't always guaranteed to bring them all together in such a short period of time. Pel came in, and we didn't have a multitude of transfers that were to be expected after Heath left. Townes stayed, Welsh stayed, Beverley stayed, Hunter stayed.

The good thing is, Pel's style of play and his own hand-picked players will be here next season to help erase all the negative bull$hit that has existed in the locker room for multiple years.

Also, the internal problems were Heath's fault. He brought these kids together. He could not manage them. He couldn't get his system to work. He couldn't keep fans interested either. 

[TuckFexas]

Maybe it ain't the players.

So last year people should have been dogging the players and not the coach right?

The players deserved to get dogged last year too with some of the effort they put forth. Can you not determine a coaching blunder vs. player blunder?

[HogNuttz]

You keep wanting to blame Pel, when it's painfully obvious that these kids have had internal issues for quite some time now, and a new coach isn't always guaranteed to bring them all together in such a short period of time. Pel came in, and we didn't have a multitude of transfers that were to be expected after Heath left. Townes stayed, Welsh stayed, Beverley stayed, Hunter stayed.

You keep wanting to blame 15 players, when it's painfully obvious that this coach has issues, and new players aren't always guaranteed to fix that in any period of time.  I for one, didn't expect a multitude of transfers.  If Heath was half as bad as you make him sound, why would anyone transfer when we got rid of him.  They should have been excited to get a new coach.

[HogNuttz]

The players deserved to get dogged last year too with some of the effort they put forth. Can you not determine a coaching blunder vs. player blunder?

Yes.

Player blunder = A stupid mistake is made

Coaching blunder = A stupid mistake is made over and over and the team doesn't correct it.


You tell me which problem this team has.

[HawgAdvocate]

You keep wanting to blame 15 players, when it's painfully obvious that this coach has issues, and new players aren't always guaranteed to fix that in any period of time.  I for one, didn't expect a multitude of transfers.  If Heath was half as bad as you make him sound, why would anyone transfer when we got rid of him.  They should have been excited to get a new coach.

I never said I blame 15 players. Did I say that? How can I blame Rakestraw, Britt, Sanchez, or Patsatsia?

How is it painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues? If you claim it so, you need to back it up.

There were some credible posters on here who claimed they had class with Welsh and he told them he nearly left due to Heath. We all know Townes and Heath had problems after Ronnie Thompson left for Ball St. Sean McCurdy left without caring who the new coach was. Vincent Hunter nearly left, and even had some parting shots on tv for Heath. Beverley nearly left as well, but after he met with Pelphrey, he stayed.

Were you on Mars when this all took place?

[chiefsfan]

I get tired of hearing the opinion that players should be above criticism.  If players play their hardest, but lose right at the end in a hard nosed battle.  Thats one thin.   But when we lose the game because of stupid mistakes made by seniors, and because a team shoiws a general lack of enthusiasm on the court.   Then the players have every right to be critcised]

I actually tend to blame more problems on the players, then the coach.  Especially when the coach is in year 1 with a bunch of guys he probably wouldnt have recruited to play here in the first place

Players are getting their education paid for so they can play basketballf or us.  I sure as heck expect them to put forth an effort that any scholarship player should get

[Milton]

there's only so many "pel is to blame" or "don't blame the pel" I can see on here it got really old really fast

[TuckFexas]

Yes.

Player blunder = A stupid mistake is made

Coaching blunder = A stupid mistake is made over and over and the team doesn't correct it.


You tell me which problem this team has.

You think Pel hasn't demonstrated what a travelling violation is in practice? Or that he hasn't told Ervin numerous times to not penetrate so deep before deciding what to do with the ball? Or how to catch a pass, throw a pass, dribble, etc? I don't see him doing a whole lot of clapping on the sidelines when one of our players makes a bonehead play, that tells me he's not coaching them to play like a bunch of boneheads. My main concern with Pel and his coaching is that I think he subs too much and it doesn't allow for a rhythm. Other than that, I think he's doing all he can to improve this team that keeps demonstrating they think they don't need to improve.

[chiefsfan]

You keep wanting to blame 15 players, when it's painfully obvious that this coach has issues, and new players aren't always guaranteed to fix that in any period of time.  I for one, didn't expect a multitude of transfers.  If Heath was half as bad as you make him sound, why would anyone transfer when we got rid of him.  They should have been excited to get a new coach

as far as I know.  At least 3 players considered transfering at one point last year.   When Pelphrey was hired...Not one did.  These plyers were considering transfers before Heath was canned

The one group Heath did have on his side was the seniors...which also convienently make the biggest blunders

[HogNuttz]

I never said I blame 15 players. Did I say that? How can I blame Rakestraw, Britt, Sanchez, or Patsatsia?

How is it painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues? If you claim it so, you need to back it up.

There were some credible posters on here who claimed they had class with Welsh and he told them he nearly left due to Heath. We all know Townes and Heath had problems after Ronnie Thompson left for Ball St. Sean McCurdy left without caring who the new coach was. Vincent Hunter nearly left, and even had some parting shots on tv for Heath. Beverley nearly left as well, but after he met with Pelphrey, he stayed.

Were you on Mars when this all took place?

Well tell me exactly how many and what players you think the problem lies with, that way I won't confuse that with you placing blame on part of the players and none of the coaching.  You want me to back it up?  Read the post above the quoted one and answer the last statement.  This team makes the same mistakes over and over and over.  That tells me they are not being coached to change their mistakes.


So Heath, who wasn't a good coach and had no respect from the players gets fired, but yet we have a couple transfer and "credible posters" (almost an oxymoron in itself) state there were almost others.  What point are you trying to make here?

[Dropkick]

One big improvement next season.................................these Srs. will be gone.

[TuckFexas]

What point are you trying to make here?

That your argument is weak, sucks, etc.

[HogNuttz]

You think Pel hasn't demonstrated what a travelling violation is in practice? Or that he hasn't told Ervin numerous times to not penetrate so deep before deciding what to do with the ball? Or how to catch a pass, throw a pass, dribble, etc? I don't see him doing a whole lot of clapping on the sidelines when one of our players makes a bonehead play, that tells me he's not coaching them to play like a bunch of boneheads. My main concern with Pel and his coaching is that I think he subs too much and it doesn't allow for a rhythm. Other than that, I think he's doing all he can to improve this team that keeps demonstrating they think they don't need to improve.

You don't think the players don't know what a travel is and their doing it on purpose?  You think these players got scholarships to a major DI college because they can not catch a pass, throw a pass, dribble, etc...?  Maybe when they make a mistake, he needs to start clapping to get their attention and tell them what the hell they need to correct to keep their arse off the bench.

[RazorBacker215]

Sometimes a coach can't make a difference in players in the first year that he coaches. If the players have been taught wrong and developed bad habbits like turning the ball over too much then the blame goes to either the players or the old coach. Did Stan Heath ever develope a 3 point shooter? Nope, do you blame that on Heath or Pel? What is causing us to loose games? I think its those two reasons and I blame that on Stan Heath. When Pel gets his "STYLE" of players then Ill blame him.

Also, the reason I like Pel is that when the team looses because of too many turnovers he says it, he does'nt make excuses he works on it with the players. That does'nt mean that they will change. Just means he knows the problem. That is more than Heath ever did.

[TuckFexas]

You don't think the players don't know what a travel is and their doing it on purpose?  You think these players got scholarships to a major DI college because they can not catch a pass, throw a pass, dribble, etc...?  Maybe when they make a mistake, he needs to start clapping to get their attention and tell them what the hell they need to correct to keep their arse off the bench.

Jesus H. Christ, are you drinking now or just during the games? Record a game and pay attention during the timeouts or even during the game for that matter. You'll see Pel IS coaching this team, they just seem to have a hard time following instructions.

[CurlyTail]

This team makes the same mistakes over and over and over.  That tells me they are not being coached to change their mistakes.

These players have made those same mistakes for their entire duration in Fayetteville, regardless of coach. That tells me they are low IQ basketball players and way beyond being coachable.

[HogNuttz]

These players have made those same mistakes for their entire duration in Fayetteville, regardless of coach. That tells me they are low IQ basketball players and way beyond being coachable.

It tells me that their coaches during their tenure wern't very good. 

When you have a small lead late in the game, its not rocket science to use up as much clock as possible and if your going to shoot a contested shot, shoot a short range contested shot.

When you throw the ball in the corner against a pressure team and you get trapped and commit a turnover or use a time out, it doesn't take the ability to make 36 on the ACT to know you shouldn't throw it back in the corner.

As players, some of them don't make good decisions when they are forced to do it in a hurry and that isn't something you can coach really (Ex:  Ervin driving through the lane and not knowing what to do if there isn't a layup available).  However, if you think those are our only problems, I disagree.

[BallHog1]

You keep wanting to blame 15 players, when it's painfully obvious that this coach has issues, and new players aren't always guaranteed to fix that in any period of time.  I for one, didn't expect a multitude of transfers.  If Heath was half as bad as you make him sound, why would anyone transfer when we got rid of him.  They should have been excited to get a new coach.

Whats obvious??

[HogNuttz]

Whats obvious??

That Pel doesn't coach the players on what needs to be done strategy wise. 

On what they need to do to keep from turing the ball over, or installing an offense or press brake to keep from turning the ball over.

On setting up an offense to get open 3 point looks. (I know were not shooting well, but compare our 3 point shot availability to a good 3 point shooting team).

[HawgAdvocate]

Well tell me exactly how many and what players you think the problem lies with, that way I won't confuse that with you placing blame on part of the players and none of the coaching.  You want me to back it up?  Read the post above the quoted one and answer the last statement.  This team makes the same mistakes over and over and over.  That tells me they are not being coached to change their mistakes.


So Heath, who wasn't a good coach and had no respect from the players gets fired, but yet we have a couple transfer and "credible posters" (almost an oxymoron in itself) state there were almost others.  What point are you trying to make here?

Why should I tell you "exactly how many players?" Why does an exact number matter? If a kid was on last season's squad, he could be part of he problem. is that crystal enough for you?

As far as reading the "above post and answering the statement"... you'll have to be more specific. I'm not gonna waste my time hunting with your vague directions.

The team makes the same mistakes? Bad PG play? Could it be we have bad PGs? Could it be that three years of coaching under Heath outweighs six months under Pelphrey? Wait, it's even less than that since Pelphrey was limited in what he could do due to off-season. Are you saying Rick Stansbury is also a bad coach since he couldn't fix Gary Ervin?

The point is on Heath is that he lost control of his team. The players didn't respect him. If you can't recognize detailed explanation to support the points I'm making (which clearly you can't since you're unable to do the same in your assertion that it's "painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues), then I can't help you.

[HawgAdvocate]

That Pel doesn't coach the players on what needs to be done strategy wise. 

On what they need to do to keep from turing the ball over, or installing an offense or press brake to keep from turning the ball over.

On setting up an offense to get open 3 point looks. (I know were not shooting well, but compare our 3 point shot availability to a good 3 point shooting team).

Strategy wise? How vague can that be? He can't hold their hands on each possesion. Do you think he encourages Ervin to run into a 3 on 1 and throw up a wild shot? Do you think that's why Ervin might no longer be a starter possibly?

What do they need to do to keep from turning the ball over? Pel runs up-tempo basketball. TOs will happen when you have weak ball handling. Welsh is our starting PG, but he's played the 2-guard all his life. When your starting PG is your former 2nd-string two guard, you have roster issues. Period.

On the Georgia broadcast, Eddie Fogler mentioned a conversation he had with Pelphrey the night before about Pel's preference for the team to make at least four passes before settling for a shot, instead of one pass and shoot. Fogler brought it up because Ervin had two straight possesions where he threw up wild shots. Yet another example of having no solid floor general. If Pel could play PG for this team, you better bet your a$$ he'd be doing it.

[HogNuttz]

Why should I tell you "exactly how many players?" Why does an exact number matter? If a kid was on last season's squad, he could be part of he problem. is that crystal enough for you?

As far as reading the "above post and answering the statement"... you'll have to be more specific. I'm not gonna waste my time hunting with your vague directions.

The team makes the same mistakes? Bad PG play? Could it be we have bad PGs? Could it be that three years of coaching under Heath outweighs six months under Pelphrey? Wait, it's even less than that since Pelphrey was limited in what he could do due to off-season. Are you saying Rick Stansbury is also a bad coach since he couldn't fix Gary Ervin?

The point is on Heath is that he lost control of his team. The players didn't respect him. If you can't recognize detailed explanation to support what the points I'm making (which clearly you can't since you're unable to do the same in your assertion that it's "painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues), then I can't help you.

I said you place the blame on 15 players, then you get defensive stating "I never said I blame 15 players. Did I say that? How can I blame Rakestraw, Britt, Sanchez, or Patsatsia?"

If you don't want to tell me what players are the problem fine. I'll just refer to them as "the problem players" from now on.


As far as being more specific for you, you asked

"How is it painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues? If you claim it so, you need to back it up."

My previous post stated:

"Player blunder = A stupid mistake is made

Coaching blunder = A stupid mistake is made over and over and the team doesn't correct it.


You tell me which problem this team has."

This team makes the same mistakes over and over and it doesn't get corrected.

I can recognize the detailed explanation to support your points, but they aren't valid and I've stated why.  I've also have done the same in my assertion that it's "painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues), then I can't help you.  It was posted before you ever asked the question and I've posted it again earlier in this post.

[HogNuttz]

Strategy wise? How vague can that be? He can't hold their hands on each possesion. Do you think he encourages Ervin to run into a 3 on 1 and throw up a wild shot? Do you think that's why Ervin might no longer be a starter possibly?

What do they need to do to keep from turning the ball over? Pel runs up-tempo basketball. TOs will happen when you have weak ball handling. Welsh is our starting PG, but he's played the 2-guard all his life. When your starting PG is your former 2nd-string two guard, you have roster issues. Period.

On the Georgia broadcast, Eddie Fogler mentioned a conversation he had with Pelphrey the night before about Pel's preference for the team to make at least four passes before settling for a shot, instead of one pass and shoot. Fogler brought it up because Ervin had two straight possesions where he threw up wild shots. Yet another example of having no solid floor general. If Pel could play PG for this team, you better bet your a$$ he'd be doing it.

How's this for not being vague on strategy:

When you are up by a small margin with a couple minutes left, don't shoot a three with lots of time on the clock and certainly don't do it three feet behind the line and a man in your face.  See Weems and Beverly against Alabama on a perfect clip of what not to do.  Is that specific enough?

When your playing a pressue team don't throw the ball to the corner, especially if you've already thrown it to the corner and had trouble getting it back out.  Is that specific enough?

Good coaches and even decent coaches can perform with decent talent, even if it doesn't fit their system.  If his system revolves around a solid point guard, maybe he shouldn't install it untill he has someone capable of dribbling while keeping their head up.  Frick, even Nutt did good his first two years.  I agree Ervin has some issues, so obviously he is one of "the problem players", and I agree, he does have some issues that coaching won't help.  I don't think it is his attitude.  He makes bad decisions when he has to make split second decisions, but the dude is also one of, if not the most, clutch player we have.  See Alabama for example.

[HawgAdvocate]

I said you place the blame on 15 players, then you get defensive stating "I never said I blame 15 players. Did I say that? How can I blame Rakestraw, Britt, Sanchez, or Patsatsia?"

If you don't want to tell me what players are the problem fine. I'll just refer to them as "the problem players" from now on.


As far as being more specific for you, you asked

"How is it painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues? If you claim it so, you need to back it up."

My previous post stated:

"Player blunder = A stupid mistake is made

Coaching blunder = A stupid mistake is made over and over and the team doesn't correct it.


You tell me which problem this team has."

This team makes the same mistakes over and over and it doesn't get corrected.

I can recognize the detailed explanation to support your points, but they aren't valid and I've stated why.  I've also have done the same in my assertion that it's "painfully obvious that Pelphrey has issues), then I can't help you.  It was posted before you ever asked the question and I've posted it again earlier in this post.

Nobody got defensive. Most want to assume the seniors are to blame. And they most likely are. But it's also very viable that the negative atmosphere could have come from some of the current sophomores. Who knows? When you go out of your way to say I'm blaming the 15 players, I want to make sure you know that I'm not blaming the current freshman. It's that simple.

All players will make stupid mistakes. Ervin makes plenty when he goes out of control to the basket. How can you correct it? Tell him not to? It's been quoted in the paper that Pelphrey publiclly scolded Ervin at practice the day after the Bama game. Ervin knows he shouldn't do it, but he does it anyway. He's our only true PG. He makes many choices, but he's also solid on defense, and he gets the ball up the floor against the press. When you have decent players who are bad in certain spots, you still have to use them if that's all you have. Like I said, Stansbury couldn't fix Ervin, so he let him go. Some kids just aren't coachable. Phil Jackson said it of the greatest scorer in the NBA today.

Which points aren't valid? You state they're invalid because "a stupid mistake is made...and isn't corrected." What mistakes are so easily correctable that haven't been corrected? Have you ever played organzied basketball? 90% of it is mental, and as of last season, these kids made the same mental mistakes. If you're in a system that allows for these mistakes for an extended period of time, which they were, how can you expect major changes by all players in such a short period of time?

[HogNuttz]

Nobody got defensive. Most want to assume the seniors are to blame. And they most likely are. But it's also very viable that the negative atmosphere could have come from some of the current sophomores. Who knows? When you go out of your way to say I'm blaming the 15 players, I want to make sure you know that I'm not blaming the current freshman. It's that simple.

All players will make stupid mistakes. Ervin makes plenty when he goes out of control to the basket. How can you correct it? Tell him not to? It's been quoted in the paper that Pelphrey publiclly scolded Ervin at practice the day after the Bama game. Ervin knows he shouldn't do it, but he does it anyway. He's our only true PG. He makes many choices, but he's also solid on defense, and he gets the ball up the floor against the press. When you have decent players who are bad in certain spots, you still have to use them if that's all you have. Like I said, Stansbury couldn't fix Ervin, so he let him go. Some kids just aren't coachable. Phil Jackson said it of the greatest scorer in the NBA today.

Which points aren't valid? You state they're invalid because "a stupid mistake is made...and isn't corrected." What mistakes are so easily correctable that haven't been corrected? Have you ever played organzied basketball? 90% of it is mental, and as of last season, these kids made the same mental mistakes. If you're in a system that allows for these mistakes for an extended period of time, which they were, how can you expect major changes by all players in such a short period of time?

You stated the players had no respect for Stan Heath last year in response to:

"Last years shortcomings were the coaches fault, this year its the players.  What is the difference other than the popularity of the coach?"

Pel has their respect so if we lost no one and there is no improvement, why isn't Pel at least partially to blame for this teams performance? So are you not claiming that last year disrespect was the problem? This year its attitude, dumb play, and lack of a PG.  Well this is the same players that made dumb plays and didn't have a point guard last year, only their a year older and more expericence.  Yet, no improvement.

I've stated several times the two glaring mistakes that I've seen that I believe are the responsibility of the coach.

1) Against Mizzou we threw the ball into the corner.  Not a good idea against a press team.  Should have been addressed in the prior weeks preperation.  We have trouble getting the ball out of the corner, only to do the exact same thing after a timeout in which the issue could have been addressed.

2)  We had a small lead late in the Bama game.  We come down a Weems takes a quick three using almost no time off the clock.  We come down just a couple of posessions later, if not the very next posession, and Beverly shoots a three using little of the clock and he is three feet behind the line with a man close enough to get a hand in his face.
There are other less obvious instances of bad/lack of coaching, but case number 1 should have been addressed in the week before the game and case number 2 should have been addressed before the season started.  Case 1 also should have been addressed during the timeout and case number two also should have been addressed by the coach yelling wildly from the bench "USE THE MOMMAFRICKING CLOCK!"

And yes, I played as much organized basketball as I possibly could.  Did you?  I would think if you did you would see the types of mistakes this team is making that should be addressed by coaching.

[HawgAdvocate]

How's this for not being vague on strategy:

When you are up by a small margin with a couple minutes left, don't shoot a three with lots of time on the clock and certainly don't do it three feet behind the line and a man in your face.  See Weems and Beverly against Alabama on a perfect clip of what not to do.  Is that specific enough?

When your playing a pressue team don't throw the ball to the corner, especially if you've already thrown it to the corner and had trouble getting it back out.  Is that specific enough?

Good coaches and even decent coaches can perform with decent talent, even if it doesn't fit their system.  If his system revolves around a solid point guard, maybe he shouldn't install it untill he has someone capable of dribbling while keeping their head up.  Frick, even Nutt did good his first two years.  I agree Ervin has some issues, so obviously he is one of "the problem players", and I agree, he does have some issues that coaching won't help.  I don't think it is his attitude.  He makes bad decisions when he has to make split second decisions, but the dude is also one of, if not the most, clutch player we have.  See Alabama for example.

I was at the Bama game and don't remember either player throwing up treys with plenty of time on the shot clock with time running out and players in their grill. I remember where one of the two (they were playing two man ball between each other)  shot with the shot clock going down and there were hands in their faces. Know why it happened? Because we don't have a PG who can execute an offense on the floor.

I don't recall players throwing it to the corner against (against an incoming trap) more than once.

It's easy for you to say perhaps Pel shouldn't install his system, but consider this 1) The half-court system the kids had learned under Heath was ineffective. Otherwise, we wouldn't have finished near the bottom of the SEC in FG% and PPG. So why would Pelphrey want to run the same system? 2) Why wouldn't Pelphrey believe he could make his system work with Ervin and Welsh at PG? He's got to have ALL the current underclassmen ready for next season, so why not run his system now and get acclimated to it. Hindsight is 20/20, and who would known that Ervin would regress (he was solid up until SEC play, he had improved numbers all across the board coming off the bench). Like I said, some kids are uncoachable, and/or revert to bad habits on instinct.

[HawgAdvocate]

You stated the players had no respect for Stan Heath last year in response to:

"Last years shortcomings were the coaches fault, this year its the players.  What is the difference other than the popularity of the coach?"

Pel has their respect so if we lost no one and there is no improvement, why isn't Pel at least partially to blame for this teams performance? So are you not claiming that last year disrespect was the problem? This year its attitude, dumb play, and lack of a PG.  Well this is the same players that made dumb plays and didn't have a point guard last year, only their a year older and more expericence.  Yet, no improvement.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Pelphrey can coach and coach and coach until he falls dead to the floor, but that doesn't mean all of these kids are taking it to heart, or making it click in their brains come game. Townes has made huge strides this year. Others haven't. Thomas tried to make the change to SF by changing his body. Now he's needed to play both PF and SF, and you can see he's struggling much like Corliss did when he did the same after he was drafted by Sacremento. Hill's ceiling capped long ago. Ervin has always been known for making bad decisions, Beverley has been playing basketball non-stop since the summer before his freshman year (USA team), Welsh is playing out of position (probably not where he wants to be either)...numerous issues, not a lot of easy corrections that can be made.

Pel does have some of the blame. He'll tell you that I'm sure. But you can't even begin to focus blame on him when there's so many negative factors with the kids he has now. Problems existed before he came (more than just attitude). If he couldn't spend quality coaching time with them until October (and a couple weeks in Mexico), coupled with the responsibility of meeting, recruiting, and signing of nearly half a roster of new kids for next season, you can't expect that he'd be able to right the ship in four months.

[HogNuttz]

I was at the Bama game and don't remember either player throwing up treys with plenty of time on the shot clock with time running out and players in their grill. I remember where one of the two (they were playing two man ball between each other)  shot with the shot clock going down and there were hands in their faces. Know why it happened? Because we don't have a PG who can execute an offense on the floor.

I don't recall players throwing it to the corner against (against an incoming trap) more than once.

It's easy for you to say perhaps Pel shouldn't install his system, but consider this 1) The half-court system the kids had learned under Heath was ineffective. Otherwise, we wouldn't have finished near the bottom of the SEC in FG% and PPG. So why would Pelphrey want to run the same system? 2) Why wouldn't Pelphrey believe he could make his system work with Ervin and Welsh at PG? He's got to have ALL the current underclassmen ready for next season, so why not run his system now and get acclimated to it. Hindsight is 20/20, and who would known that Ervin would regress (he was solid up until SEC play, he had improved numbers all across the board coming off the bench). Like I said, some kids are uncoachable, and/or revert to bad habits on instinct.

Watch the tapes.  You'll see it.  The bad three's were against Bama and throwing it to the corner was against Mizzou.

The first three is Weems from the left side, and his wasn't very contested.  A decent shot during regular play, but probably not what you want with time on the shot clock and a small lead late in the game.  A couple posessions after that Beverly shoots one a few feet behind the line from the top of the key with a man getting a hand in his face.

As far as the Mizzouri game, I don't recall at what point in the game it was.  It was first half all I know.

[HogNuttz]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Pelphrey can coach and coach and coach until he falls dead to the floor, but that doesn't mean all of these kids are taking it to heart, or making it click in their brains come game. Townes has made huge strides this year. Others haven't. Thomas tried to make the change to SF by changing his body. Now he's needed to play both PF and SF, and you can see he's struggling much like Corliss did when he did the same after he was drafted by Sacremento. Hill's ceiling capped long ago. Ervin has always been known for making bad decisions, Beverley has been playing basketball non-stop since the summer before his freshman year (USA team), Welsh is playing out of position (probably not where he wants to be either)...numerous issues, not a lot of easy corrections that can be made.

Pel does have some of the blame. He'll tell you that I'm sure. But you can't even begin to focus blame on him when there's so many negative factors with the kids he has now. Problems existed before he came (more than just attitude). If he couldn't spend quality coaching time with them until October (and a couple weeks in Mexico), coupled with the responsibility of meeting, recruiting, and signing of nearly half a roster of new kids for next season, you can't expect that he'd be able to right the ship in four months.

If these players are so inept they can't follow the basics I outlined in my last post and throughout this thread, they shouldn't have been admitted to the U of A and they should be benched for players that are more coachable, regardless of the drop off in talent.  I'm talking basic, basic, mistakes.  The stuff you get chewed for in High School.

[Pigdiana Jones]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Pelphrey can coach and coach and coach until he falls dead to the floor, but that doesn't mean all of these kids are taking it to heart, or making it click in their brains come game. Townes has made huge strides this year. Others haven't. Thomas tried to make the change to SF by changing his body. Now he's needed to play both PF and SF, and you can see he's struggling much like Corliss did when he did the same after he was drafted by Sacremento. Hill's ceiling capped long ago. Ervin has always been known for making bad decisions, Beverley has been playing basketball non-stop since the summer before his freshman year (USA team), Welsh is playing out of position (probably not where he wants to be either)...numerous issues, not a lot of easy corrections that can be made.

Pel does have some of the blame. He'll tell you that I'm sure. But you can't even begin to focus blame on him when there's so many negative factors with the kids he has now. Problems existed before he came (more than just attitude). If he couldn't spend quality coaching time with them until October (and a couple weeks in Mexico), coupled with the responsibility of meeting, recruiting, and signing of nearly half a roster of new kids for next season, you can't expect that he'd be able to right the ship in four months.

+1

[chiefsfan]

If these players are so inept they can't follow the basics I outlined in my last post and throughout this thread, they shouldn't have been admitted to the U of A and they should be benched for players that are more coachable, regardless of the drop off in talent.  I'm talking basic, basic, mistakes.  The stuff you get chewed for in High School.

We have no problem with this...

except.  Stan Heath admitted them to the UA.  Not John Pelphrey   AND

We dont have anyone else capable of even being remotely competitive against SEC competiiton on the roster.  Britt is the only one who can.   Rakestraw was a Heath recruit and he's slowed by an injury.  Patsa was a late sign and doesnt have the defensive ability needed to play.  Sanchez is a redshirt.   so who do we bring in?

[WilsonHog]

That tells me they are not being coached to change their mistakes.

Or that they refuse to accept coaching.

[zorbacks06]

Or that they refuse to accept coaching.

Exactly the problem.

[reddogjcss]

The players have had every opportunity & they will not give there all every game. It would not matter if Nolan coached this team.

[FelixJonesorDMAC?]

Or that they refuse to accept coaching.

Exactly the problem.

Bench them then.  If they don't want to listen or keep making the same mistakes and losing, why play them?  Let the freshman get experience if we are going to lose the way we are, unless he's trying to redshirt them of course. 

[HogNuttz]

Or that they refuse to accept coaching.

+1 Great accessment!

So you're telling me we don't have a coaching problem, but almost every player on our team all has the same problem in that none of them are coachable.  Not 1 problem with one person, but six to ten problems with six to ten different people?  When one or two players demonstrate such mistakes, its the player(s) that have a problem, when its the whole team, that is a coaching problem.  If that's your opinion there is not much I can do about it. 

[zorbacks06]

So you're telling me we don't have a coaching problem, but almost every player on our team all has the same problem in that none of them are coachable.  Not 1 problem with one person, but six to ten problems with six to ten different people?  When one or two players demonstrate such mistakes, its the player(s) that have a problem, when its the whole team, that is a coaching problem.  If that's your opinion there is not much I can do about it. 

Ingrained laziness, and lack of on court intelligence take time to cure. Dr. Pel is still searching for the correct dose of vacine.

[HogNuttz]

Ingrained laziness, and lack of on court intelligence take time to cure. Dr. Pel is still searching for the correct dose of vacine.

The change doesn't happen overnight either.  It is a long process.  I've yet to see any evidence of progress.

[Peter Venkman]

HogNuttz

So what's your solution to the problem? Would you fire Pelphrey now and make Evans the interim? Play a slow down game to cut down on turnovers? Speed the game up? Different lineup?

You've stated your case as to why you think there's a problem. What is your solution in the short term? Long term?

[HawgAdvocate]

So you're telling me we don't have a coaching problem, but almost every player on our team all has the same problem in that none of them are coachable.  Not 1 problem with one person, but six to ten problems with six to ten different people?  When one or two players demonstrate such mistakes, its the player(s) that have a problem, when its the whole team, that is a coaching problem.  If that's your opinion there is not much I can do about it. 

I don't think anyone wants you to do anything about it.

[HogNuttz]

I don't think anyone wants you to do anything about it.

Let me rephrase that.

If that is your opinion, I guess talking logic is of no purpose.

[HogNuttz]

HogNuttz

So what's your solution to the problem? Would you fire Pelphrey now and make Evans the interim? Play a slow down game to cut down on turnovers? Speed the game up? Different lineup?

You've stated your case as to why you think there's a problem. What is your solution in the short term? Long term?

No firing yet.  I've stated he deserves a chance to correct these mistakes and deserves a chance to get some, if not all, of his players in here.  I've stated he desereves at least 3 years.  It is just my opinion that the problems with this team are more with coaching and that we will be looking for a new coach in 5 years or less because new players won't fix this (unless he lands tons of top tier talent to makeup for deficiencies).

Short term, I don't think slowing the game down some is a bad idea.  I'm not in pratice everyday, so I'm not claiming to be the best authority, but when you're limited on ball handlers it is usually a good idea.  We're going to see a lot of zone because we have no one that can drive and make a good decision on a consistent basis, and we can't shoot 3's for crap and these are the best ways to attack a zone.  We have no good solution for this.  We have plenty enough talent to score in a man offense, mainly our bigs.  Weak side post screens, weak side man rolling to the top of the key, pick and rolls with Weems or Beverly, etc...

Long term we should let Pel do his thing for 3 or 4 years.  If it works, great, if not, move on.  We see what happened in football when too many people were meddling.  Let Pel prove or disprove himself, he has done neither so far and I don't understand why everyone his thrilled to have him as a coach when he hasn't proven anything.

[Peter Venkman]

No firing yet.  I've stated he deserves a chance to correct these mistakes and deserves a chance to get some, if not all, of his players in here.  I've stated he desereves at least 3 years.  It is just my opinion that the problems with this team are more with coaching and that we will be looking for a new coach in 5 years or less because new players won't fix this (unless he lands tons of top tier talent to makeup for deficiencies).

Short term, I don't think slowing the game down some is a bad idea.  I'm not in pratice everyday, so I'm not claiming to be the best authority, but when you're limited on ball handlers it is usually a good idea.  We're going to see a lot of zone because we have no one that can drive and make a good decision on a consistent basis, and we can't shoot 3's for crap and these are the best ways to attack a zone.  We have no good solution for this.  We have plenty enough talent to score in a man offense, mainly our bigs.  Weak side post screens, weak side man rolling to the top of the key, pick and rolls with Weems or Beverly, etc...

Long term we should let Pel do his thing for 3 or 4 years.  If it works, great, if not, move on.  We see what happened in football when too many people were meddling.  Let Pel prove or disprove himself, he has done neither so far and I don't understand why everyone his thrilled to have him as a coach when he hasn't proven anything.

If you are the Athletic Director (AD HawgNuttz) and you believe Pelphrey isn't a good coach and we're going nowhere with him as he leader of our program, then wouldn't you fire Pelphrey and start over? It seems like you want to be in the "Fire Pelphrey" camp, but can't bring yourself to call for the coache's head after less than 20 games. I think if you truely had a "wait and let Pelphrey prove himself" attitude then you wouldn't be passionately defending your stance that Pelphrey is a bad coach. You're giving him a "F" on his report card when it should really be an "Incomplete."

I think everyone should have a "wait and see" attitude. There are so many great coaches didn't pan out until later in their tenure.

[HogNuttz]

If you are the Athletic Director (AD HawgNuttz) and you believe Pelphrey isn't a good coach and we're going nowhere with him as he leader of our program, then wouldn't you fire Pelphrey and start over? It seems like you want to be in the "Fire Pelphrey" camp, but can't bring yourself to call for the coache's head after less than 20 games. I think if you truely had a "wait and let Pelphrey prove himself" attitude then you wouldn't be passionately defending your stance that Pelphrey is a bad coach. You're giving him a "F" on his report card when it should really be an "Incomplete."

I think everyone should have a "wait and see" attitude. There are so many great coaches didn't pan out until later in their tenure.

What basis would I have to fire Pel on?  I don't think he is going to be a good coach, but he is relatively new working with players that aren't his.  I've never argued that he doesn't deserve a minimum of 3 years if not 4.  Believe me, there are several people at work I'd like to fire and I know they are never going to be anything other than average at best, but I don't have any basis to fire them either.