Nolan's first season: 12-16. Stan's first: 9-19. Pel's first: 13-5. STOP WHINING

[HawgAdvocate]

Which is the basis for my question: Is it good coaching to try to do that--run a system that is not compatible with the athletes on board?

I understand being convinced how a system is superior and committed to it--when it can work.

It's sort of like the coach that simply will not play zone, no matter what the other team can do against a man (or can't do against a zone).  I find that to be ridiculous, a sort of "impose my will" on the other team approach.

I didn't like it with Houston Nutt, and I question it with Pelphery this season.  But only for this season.

JcS

Going into the season, why would Pelphrey think he couldn't teach his system?

Was it not already PAINFULLY obvious to you that the Stan Heath half-court style wasn't working under a Big 10 coach? Have the past four seasons told you nothing? If these kids could succeed in it, shouldn't they have done better as six juniors as well, instead of being called selfish like they are again this year?

And you want to believe that we'd hire John Pelphrey to come in and coach a system that he doesn't prefer to teach, to a team that never excelled in it in the first place?

Yeah, that makes sense.

[joeyself]

Going into the season, why would Pelphrey think he couldn't teach his system?

Going into the season, he had seen them play in that pre-season tourney, and had seen them in practice.  He should have already seen he didn't have the guard play needed to do what he wants. 

Was it not already PAINFULLY obvious to you that the Stan Heath half-court style wasn't working under a Big 10 coach? Have the past four seasons told you nothing? If these kids could succeed in it, shouldn't they have done better as six juniors as well, instead of being called selfish like they are again this year?

No, what was painfully obvious was that Stan couldn't get this team to play together for him.  They quit on him many times.  I thought if we had a coach that could light a fire under them, they could do the slower style.

And you want to believe that we'd hire John Pelphrey to come in and coach a system that he doesn't prefer to teach, to a team that never excelled in it in the first place?

Yeah, that makes sense.

Nope.  I've said a few times in this thread that I understand the reasons why Pelphrey might not want to use a system that better fits the talent he has THIS year; it just makes THIS year hard to watch.

JcS

[East Clintwood]

Here we go with the Pelphrey to Nutt comparisons again.   You cant compare those two

One coaches round ball -- the other coaches balls with pointy ends.   

[Milton]

One coaches round ball -- the other coaches balls with pointy ends.  

very good now wait right here while I come call the nice men in the white suits to come talk to you ummm k

[ark30inf]

I support first year coaches no matter what their record.  Taking other people's teams and doing something with them is hard.  When that coach has a winning record....that is excellent news.

[eathill5]

Nolan had no talent, neither did Heath.  Pelphrey stepped in with a team that was favored to win the west.  He doesn't deserve a break.

[hawgsav1]

Nolan had no talent, neither did Heath.  Pelphrey stepped in with a team that was favored to win the west.  He doesn't deserve a break.

Nolan inherited a team that was a 2 seed in the NCAA tourney the year before.  Yes they lost Charles Balentine and Joe Kleine, but look at Donovan and Florida this year.  They lost everyone from a team that won the national championship twice.  Are they struggling like Nolan did his first year?  No.  Roy Williams lost nearly everyone from his championship squad a few years ago and still made the tournament the next year.  The point is, coaching transitions are always difficult and there are always going to be setbacks, especially when there is a transition of style.  Honestly, had we hired Mike Anderson from the beginning we could have avoided this all.

[hawgsav1]

Going into the season, he had seen them play in that pre-season tourney, and had seen them in practice.  He should have already seen he didn't have the guard play needed to do what he wants. 


No, what was painfully obvious was that Stan couldn't get this team to play together for him.  They quit on him many times.  I thought if we had a coach that could light a fire under them, they could do the slower style.

Nope.  I've said a few times in this thread that I understand the reasons why Pelphrey might not want to use a system that better fits the talent he has THIS year; it just makes THIS year hard to watch.

JcS

Good counterpoints.  However, you have to start to implement your system the first year.  Some of these guys will be around for two-three more years.  You have to get them used to playing your style of ball now.  That being said, Pelphrey has made adjustments to capitalize on the strength of his squad: big men that can score.  He's tried to run a hybrid of his system plus the traditional motion offense also.  He's gotten the team into better shape.  However, certain things such as turnovers and defending the 3 point shot still elude them.  Hopefully guard play will be better soon.

[HawgAdvocate]

Going into the season, he had seen them play in that pre-season tourney, and had seen them in practice.  He should have already seen he didn't have the guard play needed to do what he wants. 

So, what is he going to do? Let's say he does see very early in Mexico that the guards aren't going to cut it. What does he do? He can't go get new guards. Hog fans aren't going to simply sit back and accept it if we start the season by giving major minutes to Britt, Rakestraw, and Patsatsia, not with the preseason #16 ranking, not with a senior laden team. What, is Pelphrey going to say that he's deemed that our guards suck and he won't play Ervin, and he's going to sacrifice a season with 6 seniors just to give a bunch of freshman a bunch of minutes. Do you really think that would fly in this market? These same freshman aren't even projected to start NEXT year with Fortson and Payne playing the one and three spots. And you think Pel should have known within his first month as coach that a bunch of seniors couldn't cut the mustard, and that he should say "Screw it, let's play a bunch of frosh that will most likely be career backups anyway."

Yeah, that makes a TON of sense.

Who's the say that Pelphrey didn't feel the guards were experienceing early growing pains to Pel's way of doing things? He's new to them, and they're new to him. How could he know that Welsh wouldn't adapt to the PG spot? I doubt Welsh would tell him up front, "I'm going to suck as PG coach. Please don't let me start. Please don't give me all these minutes."

Pel hasn't been able to watch them and read about them 24/7 like we did last year. He had another team to take care of. How would he be able to relive every dumb TO we saw from Ervin. Yeah, he can watch tape, but he's an SEC head coach. Why would back down from the challenge of fixing what's wrong?? Isn't that what he's paid to do? If he fails at fixing Ervin in Ervin's senior, then he fails. But he can't NOT try.

No, what was painfully obvious was that Stan couldn't get this team to play together for him.  They quit on him many times.  I thought if we had a coach that could light a fire under them, they could do the slower style.

What part of:

"Was it not already PAINFULLY obvious to you that the Stan Heath half-court style wasn't working under a Big 10 coach? Have the past four seasons told you nothing? If these kids could succeed in it, shouldn't they have done better as six juniors as well, instead of being called selfish like they are again this year?"

...is any different from what you just wrote? Oh, I guess you're saying that it's on Pel because he couldn't make them care about playing a team sport, instead of a me sport.

Nope.  I've said a few times in this thread that I understand the reasons why Pelphrey might not want to use a system that better fits the talent he has THIS year; it just makes THIS year hard to watch.

JcS

The problem is that these kids can't run a half-court offense because they can't execute. They've shown that. And now they're showing they can't run an up-tempo version of what they had last year. We have to many kids that look for their own shot instead of looking to score points. It's to late in the year for Pelphrey to scrap what he's taught. He can continue to make adjustments, and highlight what is working, but inconsistant guard play makes that very difficult to do.

[hawgsav1]

So, what is he going to do? Let's say he does see very early in Mexico that the guards aren't going to cut it. What does he do? He can't go get new guards. Hog fans aren't going to simply sit back and accept it if we start the season by giving major minutes to Britt, Rakestraw, and Patsatsia, not with the preseason #16 ranking, not with a senior laden team. What, is Pelphrey going to say that he's deemed that our guards suck and he won't play Ervin, and he's going to sacrifice a season with 6 seniors just to give a bunch of freshman a bunch of minutes. Do you really think that would fly in this market? These same freshman aren't even projected to start NEXT year with Fortson and Payne playing the one and three spots. And you think Pel should have known within his first month as coach that a bunch of seniors couldn't cut the mustard, and that he should say "Screw it, let's play a bunch of frosh that will most likely be career backups anyway."

Yeah, that makes a TON of sense.

Who's the say that Pelphrey didn't feel the guards were experienceing early growing pains to Pel's way of doing things? He's new to them, and they're new to him. How could he know that Welsh wouldn't adapt to the PG spot? I doubt Welsh would tell him up front, "I'm going to suck as PG coach. Please don't let me start. Please don't give me all these minutes."

Pel hasn't been able to watch them and read about them 24/7 like we did last year. He had another team to take care of. How would he be able to relive every dumb TO we saw from Ervin. Yeah, he can watch tape, but he's an SEC head coach. Why would back down from the challenge of fixing what's wrong?? Isn't that what he's paid to do? If he fails at fixing Ervin in Ervin's senior, then he fails. But he can't NOT try.

What part of:

"Was it not already PAINFULLY obvious to you that the Stan Heath half-court style wasn't working under a Big 10 coach? Have the past four seasons told you nothing? If these kids could succeed in it, shouldn't they have done better as six juniors as well, instead of being called selfish like they are again this year?"

...is any different from what you just wrote? Oh, I guess you're saying that it's on Pel because he couldn't make them care about playing a team sport, instead of a me sport.


The problem is that these kids can't run a half-court offense because they can't execute. They've shown that. And now they're showing they can't run an up-tempo version of what they had last year. We have to many kids that look for their own shot instead of looking to score points. It's to late in the year for Pelphrey to scrap what he's taught. He can continue to make adjustments, and highlight what is working, but inconsistant guard play makes that very difficult to do.

Good post. +1  However, I think it seems like the problem (especially offensively) is that these guys don't know how to get their own shot and our point guard play isn't good enough to create opportunities for our guys.  Townes is pretty good when he gets the ball on the block and the low post, but we don't often get it to him.  Thomas is also good at that and can shoot a little when he's open.  Weems is extremely athletic but he can't create shots for himself.  He takes 3 pointers or tries to drive and fails it seems.  Patrick Beverley can sort of get his own shot, but not really.  Welsh is a spot up shooter and not much more.  Ervin doesn't seem to be able to get the ball to those guys at their strong points.

[eathill5]

Nolan inherited a team that was a 2 seed in the NCAA tourney the year before.  Yes they lost Charles Balentine and Joe Kleine, but look at Donovan and Florida this year.  They lost everyone from a team that won the national championship twice.  Are they struggling like Nolan did his first year?  No.  Roy Williams lost nearly everyone from his championship squad a few years ago and still made the tournament the next year.  The point is, coaching transitions are always difficult and there are always going to be setbacks, especially when there is a transition of style.  Honestly, had we hired Mike Anderson from the beginning we could have avoided this all.

Losing those two players were pretty significan don't you think? I like the guy a lot I just think he deserves a lot of the blame. 

[Littlehog AR]

I'm with you....alot of people need to CALM DOWN! Give the guy a year!



Good grief

[Prince of Swine]

Can someone answer me this:

What exactly has Pelphrey done to earn this free pass you guys are giving him this year? 

The guy was 7th choice to be hired and he's getting paid what he's worth ~$500k per year which puts him at or near the bottom of the conference in pay.  History has shown you get what you pay for.  Why such blind loyalty? He's not even doing a good job.  So far, his team is mediocre at best and at worst, worse than last year.  At least Heath had the respect of his players and they played for him.  That's the most basic characteristic a coach needs to do his job. 

The administration could hire Elmer Fudd and you guys would have your heads up his rear end too.

I know for a fact Heath did not have the player's respect.  I know because I have been told stories by a former female athlete at the UA.  The word is that they have much more respect for Pelphrey.  This girl wouldn't lie about it either.

[hawgsav1]

Losing those two players were pretty significan don't you think? I like the guy a lot I just think he deserves a lot of the blame. 

yes losing them was significant.  However, just losing great players doesn't mean that a team would regress to such a level because the team has continuity in coaching and in a system that they can run.  Losing a coach to a team is like a chicken with it's head cut off.  It'll take a while for the new head to get sown on and start working properly (silly analogy, but you get the gist).

[HogNuttz]

Wow.  Not even sure where to start in this thread.  How about this one.

Here we go with the Pelphrey to Nutt comparisons again.   You cant compare those two

He isn't comparing the sports he is comparing the fact that both coaches walked into teams without "their style" of players.  Pel's team had mild success and everyone back, yet they are not performing any better than last year.  Nutt's team lost some players and weren't that good in the previous year, yet they win 9 and almost beat the eventual national champs.  The same type thing happens in college basketball every single year that happened with Nutt and our football team in his first year.  If you are simply trying to dismiss the arguement because one was a football coach and one was a basketball coach, then you are being naive.

can't compare 2 sports, -1 for that, +1 to mathog for doing good reasearch to back up what he stands for.

Please tell me your joking right?  So you can't compare two sports, but he can compare the records of Pel vs. Nolan and Heath when:

1) Pel just started conference play, where competitive conference teams face the vast majority of their losses.

2) Pel came into a team that returned everyone from an NCAA team and Heath returned JACK!  Heath would have breezed through non conference play if he started with this team as well.

Amen mathhog...I'm a big Pel fan...support him all the way.

We just have players who turn the ball over way too much and miss free throws.

Just wish we could have the Appalachian St. and S. Carolina games back.

Georgia is not that good...but all SEC games are tough on the road.

We get better players in here...Pelphrey will win games.

Once again, blame the players, not the coach.  Last year was blame the coach, not the players.  With the talent we have on that team, name me one team we should have lost to?  You can't.  Oh, wait, its the players fault....nevermind.  I wouldn't expect the players coming in to be a ton better than what we have.  Excluding Heath's first year, in which his time to recruit was vastly shortened, over 1/2 of Heath's recruits were 4 or 5 star, similar or slightly better than what Pel has coming in next year.

I like Pel, but to be fair, Stan didn't have much to work with his first year, and I don't remember what Nolan had in his first year. I do agree that all is not lost, but losing to teams you're supposed to beat brings up this kind of banter, and the only thing that will end it, is beating some top 25 teams, and winning a game or two in the ncaa's. Jmo.

Someone gets it at least.

omg, hogville would be a better place without these kind of "feminine tool" posts... get YOUR head out of Heath's rear end.. His team is mediocre because they have been coached that way for 3 years..

read less, post less.. just stick to the USF message board

So last year was the coaches fault and now that we returned everyone and are on par or worse than last year it is the former coaches fault, but no way is the the current coaches fault? Nice logic. 

And you call someone else's posts "....tool".  Give me a break.

only recruit the #6 rated recruiting class in the country with the first pure shooter, and true point guard that this school has had in 6 years.

Only equal Stan Heath's road win totals from last year...in 12 less games

would you like me to continue, there are a few more...

Be objective.  We are ranked number #6 by ESPN, #14 by rivals, and not even in the top 25 by scout.  I'm not implying we should fire Pel, he certainly deserves his time, but this class is no better than some Heath put together and that didn't turn out so hot.

[hawgsav1]

Wow.  Not even sure where to start in this thread.  How about this one.
He isn't comparing the sports he is comparing the fact that both coaches walked into teams without "their style" of players.  Pel's team had mild success and everyone back, yet they are not performing any better than last year.  Nutt's team lost some players and weren't that good in the previous year, yet they win 9 and almost beat the eventual national champs.  The same type thing happens in college basketball every single year that happened with Nutt and our football team in his first year.  If you are simply trying to dismiss the arguement because one was a football coach and one was a basketball coach, then you are being naive.

Please tell me your joking right?  So you can't compare two sports, but he can compare the records of Pel vs. Nolan and Heath when:

1) Pel just started conference play, where competitive conference teams face the vast majority of their losses.

2) Pel came into a team that returned everyone from an NCAA team and Heath returned JACK!  Heath would have breezed through non conference play if he started with this team as well.

Once again, blame the players, not the coach.  Last year was blame the coach, not the players.  With the talent we have on that team, name me one team we should have lost to?  You can't.  Oh, wait, its the players fault....nevermind.  I wouldn't expect the players coming in to be a ton better than what we have.  Excluding Heath's first year, in which his time to recruit was vastly shortened, over 1/2 of Heath's recruits were 4 or 5 star, similar or slightly better than what Pel has coming in next year.

Someone gets it at least.

So last year was the coaches fault and now that we returned everyone and are on par or worse than last year it is the former coaches fault, but no way is the the current coaches fault? Nice logic. 

And you call someone else's posts "....tool".  Give me a break.
Be objective.  We are ranked number #6 by ESPN, #14 by rivals, and not even in the top 25 by scout.  I'm not implying we should fire Pel, he certainly deserves his time, but this class is no better than some Heath put together and that didn't turn out so hot.

Very good counterpoints.  Though I disagree with you to an extent, I want to clarify something.  I certainly hope that you are not calling for Pelphrey's firing.  Does he deserve some responsibility for the losses?  Yes.  Does that mean that he will not be successful in the future?  No.  Coaching transitions are difficult for everyone.  Regardless of how talented (or not talented) this team is, it's natural to expect some struggles.  In very few situations can someone step in and win very well immediately.  Last year, when Pelphrey was hired and people were predicting sweet 16s and elite 8s, I told everyone to calm down because this team has talent, but switching it up they will struggle a bit.  I think people are having far too high expectations for his first year.

[HogNuttz]

Very good counterpoints.  Though I disagree with you to an extent, I want to clarify something.  I certainly hope that you are not calling for Pelphrey's firing.  Does he deserve some responsibility for the losses?  Yes.  Does that mean that he will not be successful in the future?  No.  Coaching transitions are difficult for everyone.  Regardless of how talented (or not talented) this team is, it's natural to expect some struggles.  In very few situations can someone step in and win very well immediately.  Last year, when Pelphrey was hired and people were predicting sweet 16s and elite 8s, I told everyone to calm down because this team has talent, but switching it up they will struggle a bit.  I think people are having far too high expectations for his first year.

I'm not calling for his firing as I stated in my first post and I quote "I'm not implying we should fire Pel, he certainly deserves his time".  I was never predicting elite 8's, but I think it is certainly reasonable to expect this team to do better than last year because:
1) We return everyone
2) Last year's problem was supposedly the coach, and we now have a new one.

[hawgsav1]

I'm not calling for his firing as I stated in my first post and I quote "I'm not implying we should fire Pel, he certainly deserves his time".  I was never predicting elite 8's, but I think it is certainly reasonable to expect this team to do better than last year because:
1) We return everyone
2) Last year's problem was supposedly the coach, and we now have a new one.

Yes we do return everyone, but if you want to run an up-tempo offense, you have to have good guard play and good guard depth, neither of which we have as of currently.  Also, it is only 18 games into the season.  There is a lot of basketball to be played before year-end verdicts come out.  Forcing a bunch of players who are used to playing a flex offense into playing full court will take time, effort, and a lot of growing pains.  You remember the 1994 team?  The reason that the 94 squad is often ranked with the greatest NCAA squads of all time (CBS ranked them 10th, and ESPN ranked them 8th) is because they were so deep and versatile that they could play any way.  They could slow down to halfcourt style and out-execute you (Duke), they could out-run you (Carolina), they could play you physical, and they could do anything, which was a sign of their greatness.  I doubt many teams could do that at all.  This team we have now is built for a flex motion offense, and can't really do anything else.  Some of these losses I consider as growing pains.

We have had two bad losses and a bad win, but I don't know if that's definitive of Pelphrey's tenure here.  Again, as mentioned before, sometimes good coaches struggle their first years, and sometimes they don't.  It will take time before we can really see what direction that Pelphrey's program is headed toward.  For example, consider Stan's tenure.  No one judged him in his first year because of the lack of talent, and even the second.  However, his third year is what defined him.  He had so much talent except we couldn't even finish better than 6-10 in the SEC.  That team was chock-full of great recruits yet we couldn't do anything with them.  That was the defining theme of Stan Heath's tenure. 

[Mr. Blutarsky]

Right now in the top 25:
#20 UMASS: 13-4
#21 Xavier:  15-4
#22 W. Virginia: 14-4
#23 Clemson: 15-4

#6 UNC Lost to unranked Maryland and almost lost to unranked Ga. Tech.

Let him do his job. The man has been and will continue to turn things around and will be successful.
Give him the time he deserves and stop thinking the sky is falling.