Mike’s recruiting

[zebradynasty]

It seems agendas follow beliefs! If your belief is that MA isn't a good coach or mediocre then you can't support the facts that his players DO improve in his system. YES even post players! Gafford may have been a little underrated but I don't think anyone saw a one and done type player out of high school. Gafford is far better now than he was his senior year but to some MA deserves no credit for that. Moses Kingsley was just as raw as Gafford when he got here and was all SEC twice and preseason picked SEC POY. Mike had nothing to do with that. Portis came in with obvious skills and each season he was here he put up better numbers, SEC POY....Mike had nothing to do with that. Sure there have been players that came in and did not improve much. Most of them were severely limited to begin with OR they never took responsibility for their own basketball career.

[steveaustin69]

You didn't see Daniel Gafford in high school. Nobody had this kid making it to the NBA in his first season on the Hill.

And if he goes he's getting drafted off athleticism and potential. You're so blinded by your love of Mike you can't even see the guy's point.

[zebradynasty]

Gafford is a generational talent because of his size and athleticism combo. His potential is the reason he ranges in draft projections from lottery to 20. He is not in that position because of some coached fundamentals in six months on a team that doesn't believe in scouting or preparing for an opponent. "It's all about what we do, how we play."

Heard that claim several times have yet to see any proof just an opinions!

[steveaustin69]

It seems agendas follow beliefs! If your belief is that MA isn't a good coach or mediocre then you can't support the facts that his players DO improve in his system. YES even post players! Gafford may have been a little underrated but I don't think anyone saw a one and done type player out of high school. Gafford is far better now than he was his senior year but to some MA deserves no credit for that. Moses Kingsley was just as raw as Gafford when he got here and was all SEC twice and preseason picked SEC POY. Mike had nothing to do with that. Portis came in with obvious skills and each season he was here he put up better numbers, SEC POY....Mike had nothing to do with that. Sure there have been players that came in and did not improve much. Most of them were severely limited to begin with OR they never took responsibility for their own basketball career.

It seems agendas follow beliefs!

Mike's developed one non top 100 recruit into a serious contributor on a good team (Qualls)

We have one (99 per 247) top 100 player in next year's class.

If they don't develop because they were severely limited to begin with whose shoulders does that fall on?

[#1 STUNNA]

1. That's part of coaching in college basketball; getting the best players

2. 4 stars or lower per 247 (ESPN does not go back far enough): Rush, Morningstar, Aldrich, Releford, Marcus Morris, Markief Morris, Thomas Robinson, Perry Ellis, Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, Mykhailiuk

So 11 out of 18 players listed.

Rush was a 5*... so basically you listed a group very highly rated players besides 3 and say Self developed them... gtfoh...lol.... Morningstar, Mason, and Mykhailulik 3*... rest 4s and 5s... looks to me like a coach that underachieves for the talent he gets every year. But we wont get into that.. same as calipari.

[#1 STUNNA]

It seems agendas follow beliefs! If your belief is that MA isn't a good coach or mediocre then you can't support the facts that his players DO improve in his system. YES even post players! Gafford may have been a little underrated but I don't think anyone saw a one and done type player out of high school. Gafford is far better now than he was his senior year but to some MA deserves no credit for that. Moses Kingsley was just as raw as Gafford when he got here and was all SEC twice and preseason picked SEC POY. Mike had nothing to do with that. Portis came in with obvious skills and each season he was here he put up better numbers, SEC POY....Mike had nothing to do with that. Sure there have been players that came in and did not improve much. Most of them were severely limited to begin with OR they never took responsibility for their own basketball career.

they will find anything to be negative about..lol

[RazorPiggie]

So you think Daniel Gafford just magically got better?  He went from solid high school, to NBA ready under Coach A.  Give credit where its due please.

I was laughing at the fact that you said we were solid fundamentally. Said nothing about Gafford.

And Gafford is going on potential alone. He has little offensive game outside of dunking or just being 5' from the basket.

[steveaustin69]

Rush was a 5*... so basically you listed a group very highly rated players besides 3 and say Self developed them... gtfoh...lol.... Morningstar, Mason, and Mykhailulik 3*... rest 4s and 5s... looks to me like a coach that underachieves for the talent he gets every year. But we wont get into that.. same as calipari.

Your original post insinuated they were all 5s. They weren't. Keep moving those goal posts, though.

Again, that is part of coaching; getting the best players.

To your Rush point: I'm not a rocket scientist but I only count four stars: https://kansas.247sports.com/Season/2005-Basketball/Commits

You can't be helped if you actually think Bill Self is a bad coach or can't develop talent.

[Pinto]

You didn't see Daniel Gafford in high school. Nobody had this kid making it to the NBA in his first season on the Hill.

I wouldn't say "nobody" 😅

[zebradynasty]

It seems agendas follow beliefs!

Mike's developed one non top 100 recruit into a serious contributor on a good team (Qualls)

We have one (99 per 247) top 100 player in next year's class.

If they don't develop because they were severely limited to begin with whose shoulders does that fall on?

Took that way over the top! When I say severely limited I mean just that. Players who got here to provide depth and contribute as role players and ended up not really doing that! Now you can blame Mike for recruiting them....I think of player like Manny Watkins very limited but by his senior year he was playing as well as anyone one the team he was never going to be an NBA prospect but at least he improved enough to be a valuable contributor on a NCAAT team.

[#1 STUNNA]

Your original post insinuated they were all 5s. They weren't. Keep moving those goal posts, though.

Again, that is part of coaching; getting the best players.

To your Rush point: I'm not a rocket scientist but I only count four stars: https://kansas.247sports.com/Season/2005-Basketball/Commits

You can't be helped if you actually think Bill Self is a bad coach or can't develop talent.

Rivals had rush as a 5...nobody said he was a bad coach.. but youre acting like he developed walk ons lmao.. you made a list where 15/18 were 4/5 stars. lol... good coach for sure but underachiever with the talent.. i think so..

[zebradynasty]

I was laughing at the fact that you said we were solid fundamentally. Said nothing about Gafford.

And Gafford is going on potential alone. He has little offensive game outside of dunking or just being 5' from the basket.

Dunking on 6'-2" centers in high school and dunking on 6'-10" centers in college is the same thing? If you saw Gafford in high school compared to now...there would be no doubt that someone has taught him something!

[steveaustin69]

Rivals had rush as a 5...nobody said he was a bad coach.. but youre acting like he developed walk ons lmao.. you made a list where 15/18 were 4/5 stars. lol... good coach for sure but underachiever with the talent.. i think so..

No, I'm not. If you think Self and Mike are remotely comparable in developing players then we will have to agree to disagree.

1. That's part of coaching in college basketball; getting the best players

2. 4 stars or lower per 247 (ESPN does not go back far enough): Rush, Morningstar, Aldrich, Releford, Marcus Morris, Markief Morris, Thomas Robinson, Perry Ellis, Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, Mykhailiuk

So 11 out of 18 players listed.

[#1 STUNNA]

Your original post insinuated they were all 5s. They weren't. Keep moving those goal posts, though.

Again, that is part of coaching; getting the best players.

To your Rush point: I'm not a rocket scientist but I only count four stars: https://kansas.247sports.com/Season/2005-Basketball/Commits

You can't be helped if you actually think Bill Self is a bad coach or can't develop talent.

not hard to get the good players at Kansas... not like he took over for a coach that had a 805 winning percentage or anything..lol.. but man he sure seems to underachieve every year with loads of talent.

[#1 STUNNA]

No, I'm not. If you think Self and Mike are remotely comparable in developing players then we will have to agree to disagree.

I bet its tough developing 5* talent.

[Atlhogfan1]

Heard that claim several times have yet to see any proof just an opinions!

Wooden believed more in preparing his team than spending time scouting opponents.  Part of Nolan's influence and philosophy came from Wooden.  The pressure defense was influenced by Wooden.  Nolan just developed it to where his players could decide when and where to do it.  Mike did the same at Mizzou and has tried here although it has failed some.  When you devote so much practice time to your defense and allow your players the freedom to make decisions, preparing a rigid plan for an opponent is not a priority.  I do have no doubt our staff and players watch film and understand their opponents.  But the focus is doing what we do and making our opponents try and prepare for us.  The problem here is when you don't have players capable or willing to play the type of defense needed to make this work you will get all of the bad looking games we got this season including Butler.  A team who does spend time preparing for an opponent. 

[zebradynasty]

Wooden believed more in preparing his team than spending time scouting opponents.  Part of Nolan's influence and philosophy came from Wooden.  The pressure defense was influenced by Wooden.  Nolan just developed it to where his players could decide when and where to do it.  Mike did the same at Mizzou and has tried here although it has failed some.  When you devote so much practice time to your defense and allow your players the freedom to make decisions, preparing a rigid plan for an opponent is not a priority.  I do have no doubt our staff and players watch film and understand their opponents.  But the focus is doing what we do and making our opponents try and prepare for us.  The problem here is when you don't have players capable or willing to play the type of defense needed to make this work you will get all of the bad looking games we got this season including Butler.  A team who does spend time preparing for an opponent.

I agree with that just wanted to debunk this mess that we don't scout or prepare for opponents.

[Letsroll1200]

And if he goes he's getting drafted off athleticism and potential. You're so blinded by your love of Mike you can't even see the guy's point.

Mike and his staff did a great job of getting Gafford in this position.

[Kevin]

if you throw it to gafford just outside the block, what go to post move does he have?
or
is gafford shooting up the draft boards based on his athleticism & potential or skills?

devonte graham of Kansas originally signed with Appalachian state his senior year, mark Gottfried told him to go to prep school and nc state would take him. while at prep school he committed to Kansas. I think Kansas had something to do with him getting better as a player.

[#1 STUNNA]

if you throw it to gafford just outside the block, what go to post move does he have?
or
is gafford shooting up the draft boards based on his athleticism & potential or skills?

devonte graham of Kansas originally signed with Appalachian state his senior year, mark Gottfried told him to go to prep school and nc state would take him. while at prep school he committed to Kansas. I think Kansas had something to do with him getting better as a player.

That amd having 4 and 5* talent around him didnt hurt one bit.

[Cargill A. BullHog]

I was laughing at the fact that you said we were solid fundamentally. Said nothing about Gafford.

And Gafford is going on potential alone. He has little offensive game outside of dunking or just being 5' from the basket.

Gafford had all the same athleticism coming out of HS and wasn't considered a NBA caliber player.  Coach A taught him some fundamentals, and improved his limited offensive game to the point that the NBA may come calling.  If he stays another year you can expect more improvement.  People can say what they want, but Coach A knows how to develop players.

[zebradynasty]

if you throw it to gafford just outside the block, what go to post move does he have?
or
is gafford shooting up the draft boards based on his athleticism & potential or skills?

devonte graham of Kansas originally signed with Appalachian state his senior year, mark Gottfried told him to go to prep school and nc state would take him. while at prep school he committed to Kansas. I think Kansas had something to do with him getting better as a player.

Well of course it's athleticism and potential! That can be said with most NBA draft picks especially underclassmen. He has a nice up and under move on the baseline...but he has very few offensive moves. That being said he's only been in the program less than a year and 11 pts and 6 reb and 60% from the field...solid numbers for a freshman who apparently did it all on his own with no help from his coaching staff!

[FineAsSwine]

Mykhailiuk, Selden, Frank Mason, Perry Ellis, Devonte Graham, Jeff Withey, Travis Releford, Thomas Robinson, Marcus Morris, Markief Morris, Cole Aldrich, Sherron Collins, Brady Morningstar, Brandon Rush, Mario Chalmers, Darrell Arthur, Wayne Simien, Keith Langford

List excludes one and dones.

Bill Self was working with gold by comparison, CMA was working with lead. Alchemy didn't work back in the day and as far as I know, it still doesn't today.  But for some reason people still think there are coaches out there turning base metals into gold, so to speak.

[steveaustin69]

Bill Self was working with gold by comparison, CMA was working with lead. Alchemy didn't work back in the day and as far as I know, it still doesn't today.  But for some reason people still think there are coaches out there turning base metals into gold, so to speak.

Whose fault is it Mike has lead?

Is he held accountable for anything by you?

[#1 STUNNA]

Bill Self was working with gold by comparison, CMA was working with lead. Alchemy didn't work back in the day and as far as I know, it still doesn't today.  But for some reason people still think there are coaches out there turning base metals into gold, so to speak.

Self walked into a gold mine... mike not so much...

[Kevin McPherson]

Wooden believed more in preparing his team than spending time scouting opponents.  Part of Nolan's influence and philosophy came from Wooden.  The pressure defense was influenced by Wooden.  Nolan just developed it to where his players could decide when and where to do it.  Mike did the same at Mizzou and has tried here although it has failed some.  When you devote so much practice time to your defense and allow your players the freedom to make decisions, preparing a rigid plan for an opponent is not a priority.  I do have no doubt our staff and players watch film and understand their opponents.  But the focus is doing what we do and making our opponents try and prepare for us.  The problem here is when you don't have players capable or willing to play the type of defense needed to make this work you will get all of the bad looking games we got this season including Butler. A team who does spend time preparing for an opponent.

We could not line up any better in our thinking on this point that I bolded. Hogs had individual offensive talent that did not embrace D, and once again they didn't have nearly enough players athletically/physically capable of being effective in their style of D ... the freshmen (Hall, Gabe, & Gafford) made mistakes but were the best defenders.

[Kevin]

We could not line up any better in our thinking on this point that I bolded. Hogs had individual offensive talent that did not embrace D, and once again they didn't have nearly enough players athletically/physically capable of being effective in their style of D ... the freshmen (Hall, Gabe, & Gafford) made mistaks but were the best defenders.

why didn't the head coach enforce them to embrace defense.

[#1 STUNNA]

why didn't the head coach enforce them to embrace defense.

How do you know he didnt?

[Kevin]

We could not line up any better in our thinking on this point that I bolded. Hogs had individual offensive talent that did not embrace D, and once again they didn't have nearly enough players athletically/physically capable of being effective in their style of D ... the freshmen (Hall, Gabe, & Gafford) made mistaks but were the best defenders.

this is what the man said

[zebradynasty]

People have this assumption that everything a coach coaches the players do! Even the best coaches have trouble getting players to buy in no matter the system, no matter the talent level. That is just part of coaching. If it were easy to get talented kids to buy in 100% then Kansas and North Carolina Kentucky should win the championship every year right? They win some championships but some years...just don't happen!

[Kevin McPherson]

why didn't the head coach enforce them to embrace defense.

It's not that simple. He got improvement at times, but at best it was mixed results and never did that team turn a page defensively for the better.

[steveaustin69]

How do you know he didnt?

If I tell my staff to go get something done and they don't do it I don't get to go to my partner when the deadline is past due and say "well I told them to get it done but they didn't do it."

[Kevin]

It's not that simple. He got improvement at times, but at best it was mixed results and never did that team turn a page defensively for the better.

we all know who we are talking about. that goes to roster mismanagement. there was no other scores on the bench. so, i soon as you sat them, the hogs could not score.

it is simple when you have competition for playing time. bench is a hell of a motivator.

[Kevin McPherson]

People have this assumption that everything a coach coaches the players do! Even the best coaches have trouble getting players to buy in no matter the system, no matter the talent level. That is just part of coaching. If it were easy to get talented kids to buy in 100% then Kansas and North Carolina Kentucky should win the championship every year right? They win some championships but some years...just don't happen!

Yep. That's why I reponded with "It's not that simple" to another poster asking why the coach didn't enforce players to play better defense. Obviously, the issue still falls under the HC and it's his team so he must take responsibility for the product and results, but there seemed to be an unwillingness from some to buy in at the D end of the floor as they appeared focused on putting up numbers on the O end of the floor.

[steveaustin69]

Yep. That's why I reponded with "It's not that simple" to another poster asking why the coach didn't enforce players to play better defense. Obviously, the issue still falls under the HC and it's his team so he must take responsibility for the product and results, but there seemed to be an unwillingness from some to buy in at the D end of the floor as they appeared focused on putting up numbers on the O end of the floor.

Bold is all that needs to be said.

[Pumbaa]

Looks to me that three are home grown and three are out of state. Not getting the Perry kid hurt.

The perception was the he would only be here a year anyways. Got Chaney instead. Could very well be better in the long run.

[zebradynasty]

why didn't the head coach enforce them to embrace defense.

Well the most effective tool to getting players to "buy-in" is playing time! But that is double edge sword if you bench starters and your bench is weak....I'm for winning doing the way coach says and if a player can't or won't conform he can sit BUT bottom line MA is paid to WIN! Benching seniors could/would have backfired with no real alternatives on the bench. MA did bench Macon (not really because he really only lost the starter title his minutes weren't reduced) and his defense got better never understood why he was the only one but I don't see them practice or workout everyday.

[zebradynasty]

If I tell my staff to go get something done and they don't do it I don't get to go to my partner when the deadline is past due and say "well I told them to get it done but they didn't do it."

Is your staff 18 and 19 years old? Apples and oranges.

[steveaustin69]

Is your staff 18 and 19 years old? Apples and oranges.

Are you slow? The point is the results are what matters. He is responsible. He is the coach.

[FineAsSwine]

Whose fault is it Mike has lead?

Is he held accountable for anything by you?

When he had  gold, he developed it. Portis Gafford  Kingsley for example.

But you just jumped into a response to another poster and deflected away from the point he made which was that CMA should have been able to make elite players out of Trey or Cook.

Nothing else for you and I to talk about. You hate CMA and that doesn't impact me (or CMA) in the least. Pretty sure I haven't heard the last from you but I'm not into the tit for tat back and forth.  So go ahead and misconstrue this post as well. I'm done.

[steveaustin69]

When he had  gold, he developed it. Portis Gafford  Kingsley for example.

But you just jumped into a response to another poster and deflected away from the point he made which was that CMA should have been able to make elite players out of Trey or Cook.

Nothing else for you and I to talk about. You hate CMA and that doesn't impact me (or CMA) in the least. Pretty sure I haven't heard the last from you but I'm not into the tit for tat back and forth.  So go ahead and misconstrue this post as well. I'm done.

Then why doesn't he get more gold? Would it be because he's just an average recruiter?

Thanks for answering the question though. You won't hold Mike accountable for anything.

[The Hogfather]

Then why doesn't he get more gold? Would it be because he's just an average recruiter?

Thanks for answering the question though. You won't hold Mike accountable for anything.

He doesn't cheat.  If others were held to the same standard, we definitely would've had Perry/Monk and maybe Goodwin/Allen (although I would argue we were probably better off not getting these two).

[Pumbaa]

Then why doesn't he get more gold? Would it be because he's just an average recruiter?

Thanks for answering the question though. You won't hold Mike accountable for anything.

I would like to see the end of this FBI mess until I completely answer that question but most of these guys coming in are ranked around the Qualls level. If only 3 of them turn out to produce like Qualls did in year 2 and 3, look out! There's a decent chance of that. I've watched these guys and rankings aside, they can play some ball.

[steveaustin69]

He doesn't cheat.  If others were held to the same standard, we definitely would've had Perry/Monk and maybe Goodwin/Allen (although I would argue we were probably better off not getting these two).

Like clockwork. I must have missed Mississippi State, Kentucky, and Florida vacating wins and receiving sanctions due to the above players.

If you aren't cheating then you're only cheating yourself.

[steveaustin69]

I would like to see the end of this FBI mess until I completely answer that question but most of these guys coming in are ranked around the Qualls level. If only 3 of them turn out to produce like Qualls did in year 2 and 3, look out! There's a decent chance of that. I've watched these guys and rankings aside, they can play some ball.

Qualls is the only guy under Mike that was ranked outside of the top 100 to be a serious contributor on a tourney team. One. In seven years. Forgive me for being skeptical three in one class are going to become what Mike has produced once.

[Kevin]

The ncaa is not going to do anything. The cleared all those players within 24 hours. When have you ever seen the ncaa move that fast.

They are not going to take down the blue bloods

[Pumbaa]

Qualls is the only guy under Mike that was ranked outside of the top 100 to be a serious contributor on a tourney team. One. In seven years. Forgive me for being skeptical three in one class are going to become what Mike has produced once.

He was also one of the very few to be ranked in that 100-150 area. But just the other day you were mouthing about how Qualls shouldn't have even been of the team to argue a point using made up claims about his character. So forgive me if I'm skeptical about your views on Razorback basketball as a whole. I would advise you to sit back and watch these guys coming in before making a judgment on them. It really doesn't sound like you've seen them in action.

[zebradynasty]

Are you slow? The point is the results are what matters. He is responsible. He is the coach.

YOU made the completely stupid comparison that being responsible for 18-22 years olds is the same as being responsible for 40 years olds. If you say that out loud and it sounds even more stupid! Who is responsible never has, never will be in question...MA is the coach. Surely we don't need a thread to figure that out?

[steveaustin69]

He was also one of the very few to be ranked in that 100-150 area. But just the other day you were mouthing about how Qualls shouldn't have even been of the team to argue a point using made up claims about his character. So forgive me if I'm skeptical about your views on Razorback basketball as a whole. I would advise you to sit back and watch these guys coming in before making a judgment on them. It really doesn't sound like you've seen them in action.

Beard was 114. His stats speak for themselves: http://www.arkansasrazorbacks.com/roster/anton-beard/

To bold: You have me confused with someone else. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[steveaustin69]

YOU made the completely stupid comparison that being responsible for 18-22 years olds is the same as being responsible for 40 years olds. If you say that out loud and it sounds even more stupid! Who is responsible never has, never will be in question...MA is the coach. Surely we don't need a thread to figure that out?

Age has nothing to do with it.

It is still the coach's responsibility. Mike is the coach, therefore he shoulders the blame for his players not buying in. Will you hold Mike accountable for anything?