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The GSD

Started by Karma, November 16, 2017, 08:19:04 am

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hogsanity

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 08:23:57 am
This is a ridiculous reach.

It makes absolutely no sense right now for the Razorbacks to be forced to play in LR which is what a portion of our "supporters" are doing.  But since we are being forced to do so, it is time to improve it and make it somewhat tolerable for everyone involved.  This is where the discussion should be heading.  Not ridiculous reaches of arguments.  The only reason right now to force the Razorbacks to play in WMS is emotion from some.  The recruiting angle is stupid. 

The recruiting argument for playing in LR has always been overhyped. How many kids from AR go play elsewhere in p5 leagues each year? The LR crowd wants to count Central and SE AR players that go play for g5 teams like a huge loss for the UofA. If those players were SEC caliber players, they would be playing for a SEC team.

All of the LR stuff is emotion. " My grandpappy took me to LR games when I was 8" " I remember going to LR games with my dad in 1966, or 1976, or whenever " " Some of my greatest times were tailgating on the golf course, I got too drunk to remember them myself, but I hear those were great times " " I toasted marshmallows in the heat of a burning coach on the golf course " and on and on and on.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Cotton

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on November 17, 2017, 12:26:07 am
Its also easier for SE Arkansans to go to Ole Miss games and SW Arkansans go to TCU or A&M games. Yes those schools are closer than the UofA. Ole Miss, LSU, and LA Tech have very strong presences in south arkansas so dont take the fans for granted
Same could be said about Razorback fans in Tulsa, Joplin, and other areas.

Hell half the students are from Texas.
"Who got a Scantron for Ryan Mallet?"  - Ryan Mallet, 2009

Razorbacks in Mexico

Ponderin' SUX

 

hoglady

Long and Bielema were both polarizing figures on the WMS issue.

Neither really understood the issue and they alienated fans over it.

Whatever happens, hopefully the next AD will handle the issue better publicly and the next coach will have enough sense to not complain.
Inside every "older" person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened?

"Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

Cotton

Quote from: hogsanity on November 17, 2017, 08:34:30 am
The recruiting argument for playing in LR has always been overhyped. How many kids from AR go play elsewhere in p5 leagues each year? The LR crowd wants to count Central and SE AR players that go play for g5 teams like a huge loss for the UofA. If those players were SEC caliber players, they would be playing for a SEC team.

All of the LR stuff is emotion. " My grandpappy took me to LR games when I was 8" " I remember going to LR games with my dad in 1966, or 1976, or whenever " " Some of my greatest times were tailgating on the golf course, I got too drunk to remember them myself, but I hear those were great times " " I toasted marshmallows in the heat of a burning coach on the golf course " and on and on and on.
Exactly. Pure nostalgia.

Every game is broadcast on live TV now. Times have changed people.
"Who got a Scantron for Ryan Mallet?"  - Ryan Mallet, 2009

Razorbacks in Mexico

Ponderin' SUX

bphi11ips

Quote from: ipigsooie on November 17, 2017, 08:20:07 am
Really? I don't think he is being racist?  Have you ever stepped foot in any little rock school?  Look at the numbers on free and reduced lunch vs the rest of the state. Our inner city schools are not filled with students that come from privileged backgrounds. Most of the kids I work with have rarely traveled out of state and most could not even fathom the luxury  affording tickets to a razorback game.  Throw in lodging and parking,  gas, etc and you might as well be asking them of they want to go to Disney world.  I don't think it's racist, I think it's reality and it is sad.

Thank you.

I've worked with Big Brothers in Nashville and have done enough pro bono work to get an inside look at what it's like for some of these poverty stricken families.  It would be very cool to load up a bunch of busses for a trip to a game in Fayetteville.  Or if someone wants to make a difference in a life, join Big Brothers Big Sisters and take a kid to a game. 
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

NaturalStateReb

WMS is a political problem, and I'm not talking about just the game.

If the Razorbacks really do pull out of Little Rock games for good, there's no way that WMS is ever going to get in the black.  That's a pretty shaky prospect right now, and without the Hog game there definitely wouldn't be any great push for renovating or modernizing the stadium much more than it is today.

So, WMS falls further and further behind.  Eventually, maybe sooner rather than later, the state--who is the owner/operator of WMS--has to make a decision about what to do with it.  The city isn't going to take it over, so you can't just deal it off.  It's a "war memorial" plus all of the Razorback history in it, so being known as the guy who demolished WMS isn't going to be where any politician who likes getting reelected is going to want to be. 

WMS is sitting on some prime real estate--the land value is pretty enormous.  The sale and redevelopment of that property, along with the also aging and adjoining Health Department, not to mention the also ancient and nearby Schools for the Blind and Deaf, could fund some pretty impressive new facilities for Health, Blind, and Deaf outside of the downtown/midtown area. 
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

N HOG

Quote from: Karma on November 17, 2017, 08:18:02 am
The GOBN is not a buffet. One does not go through the line and say:

- I will take your money to fire the AD
- I will take your money to buyout the football coach
- I will take your money and influence to find a new coach

and then say "no thank you, I'll pass on your desire to play at WMS every year."

We will eat what's on our plate and we will like it. And what we will most likely get, is 1 game a year at WMS that looks a whole lot like it has in the last 5 years, with a little lipstick added.

That was a classic post.

Well-reasoned and well-worded.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: hoglady on November 17, 2017, 08:35:33 am
Long and Bielema were both polarizing figures on the WMS issue.

Neither really understood the issue and they alienated fans over it.

Whatever happens, hopefully the next AD will handle the issue better publicly and the next coach will have enough sense to not complain.

Because it is [CENSORED] stupid.  Another way Arkansas is a weird backwards state.  The UA has been handling this for almost 20 years.  20 years the state and central Arkansas have had to find a way to truly renovate and make it a stadium worth playing in.  Instead it isn't even up to minimal standards.  But lets keep making the Hogs play there because my daddy took me to games there back when roads weren't paved outside of LR.  Lets make them travel an extra week in a season like this one when we only have 3 SEC home games anyway.  Not sure what an AD is supposed to do except kiss the ass of all those who force the Hogs to play in WMS. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on November 17, 2017, 08:38:45 am
WMS is a political problem, and I'm not talking about just the game.

If the Razorbacks really do pull out of Little Rock games for good, there's no way that WMS is ever going to get in the black.  That's a pretty shaky prospect right now, and without the Hog game there definitely wouldn't be any great push for renovating or modernizing the stadium much more than it is today.

So, WMS falls further and further behind.  Eventually, maybe sooner rather than later, the state--who is the owner/operator of WMS--has to make a decision about what to do with it.  The city isn't going to take it over, so you can't just deal it off.  It's a "war memorial" plus all of the Razorback history in it, so being known as the guy who demolished WMS isn't going to be where any politician who likes getting reelected is going to want to be. 

WMS is sitting on some prime real estate--the land value is pretty enormous.  The sale and redevelopment of that property, along with the also aging and adjoining Health Department, not to mention the also ancient and nearby Schools for the Blind and Deaf, could fund some pretty impressive new facilities for Health, Blind, and Deaf outside of the downtown/midtown area.

Could demolish it and spend a $1 million on a nice new memorial which isn't crumbling and being allowed into fall into disrepair.  Some respect being shown now by those who want to keep it. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

hogsanity

I asked two questions earlier in this thread, and have asked them over the years and of course they never get a response.

What are the pros and cons, for the football program, of playing in LR. And, in question of a statement made by another poster. WHY do the fans in CA "deserve" a game or 2?
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: Cotton on November 17, 2017, 08:36:42 am
Exactly. Pure nostalgia.

Every game is broadcast on live TV now. Times have changed people.

It's not total nostalgia, although that plays a part.  I think it's more of a question of how much of a moral responsibility does UA Athletics owe Little Rock?  For about 75 years, Little Rock money, media, and fan support made Razorback athletics.  That's just a fact.  If the University of Arkansas had to rely on Northwest Arkansas resources through most of the 1900's, it would basically be Arkansas State.  Little Rock was where the resources were to maintain a major program.

Some people in Central Arkansas feel that, after having sustained and grown the program for most of a century, the University turned its back on Little Rock as soon as there was a dollar in doing so.  I don't know that's completely true, but there were some fans and major donors that got the feeling of being disposable after decades of support.

The question is how much of an obligation, if any, does UA Athletics owe Central Arkansas?  It's not really an economic question--the accounting side of it is easy to determine. 
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

Panther34

The only Fayetteville game I attended growing up were thru FCA day in the 80's. Sat on portable bleachers in the end zone. We might be on Raycom one other game a year.

Little Rock games then made sense.




NaturalStateReb

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 08:43:39 am
Could demolish it and spend a $1 million on a nice new memorial which isn't crumbling and being allowed into fall into disrepair.  Some respect being shown now by those who want to keep it. 

Don't necessarily disagree with that.
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

 

nwahogfan1

Does any other P5 team have two stadiums and their fans are so split on this issue?  I just can not see us pouring $200+ million into a stadium in Fayetteville which is much, much prettier with all the fancy upgrades having to play a game which loses money at another location 200 miles away. 

I just do not understand it.  Are we spoiled as fans?  Probable?  I think if we were winning 8+ games a year this would not be a debate.

Cotton

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 08:43:39 am
Could demolish it and spend a $1 million on a nice new memorial which isn't crumbling and being allowed into fall into disrepair.  Some respect being shown now by those who want to keep it.
Agree 100%. However, I'm afraid people are using that argument since their other arguments for playing games in LR are failing.
"Who got a Scantron for Ryan Mallet?"  - Ryan Mallet, 2009

Razorbacks in Mexico

Ponderin' SUX

bphi11ips

Quote from: hogsanity on November 17, 2017, 08:34:30 am
The recruiting argument for playing in LR has always been overhyped. How many kids from AR go play elsewhere in p5 leagues each year? The LR crowd wants to count Central and SE AR players that go play for g5 teams like a huge loss for the UofA. If those players were SEC caliber players, they would be playing for a SEC team.

All of the LR stuff is emotion. " My grandpappy took me to LR games when I was 8" " I remember going to LR games with my dad in 1966, or 1976, or whenever " " Some of my greatest times were tailgating on the golf course, I got too drunk to remember them myself, but I hear those were great times " " I toasted marshmallows in the heat of a burning coach on the golf course " and on and on and on.

This is pure stupidity.  I live in Nashville, Tennessee and haven't had a dog in the fight for 25 years.  But guess what?  Unlike you I am an alum and spent my first thirty years in Little Rock going to games in both stadiums.  I know the people there and understand the impact Razorbacks games had on the community. I also know how things work in Arkansas politics, particularly Little Rock politics, and I know some of the key players involved here and know how they think.

You have no idea what you're talking about.  The issue is serious and always has been.  It has nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with the best interest of the university and the state.  The people who make decisions aren't interested in message boards. understand this.
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: hogsanity on November 17, 2017, 08:43:41 am
I asked two questions earlier in this thread, and have asked them over the years and of course they never get a response.

What are the pros and cons, for the football program, of playing in LR. And, in question of a statement made by another poster. WHY do the fans in CA "deserve" a game or 2?

Pros:

In November, unless the Hogs are having a good season, hunting season and weather affect some fans' choice on attending games in RRS.  Why it is okay by me IF THE STADIUM IS TRULY RENOVATED that WMS gets a late season game.

7-8 home games especially back to back or back to back to back can be a bit much in NWA.  Another scenario where if we are being forced to play in WMS, it isn't too bad to put a game in WMS.

Keep the conditional fans happy and financially supporting.


I don't really care to debate whether we should play there anymore.  We are going to because weird dumb darn is what we do.  So time to debate what needs to happen to make it more than tolerable. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

bphi11ips

Quote from: hogsanity on November 17, 2017, 08:34:30 am
The recruiting argument for playing in LR has always been overhyped. How many kids from AR go play elsewhere in p5 leagues each year? The LR crowd wants to count Central and SE AR players that go play for g5 teams like a huge loss for the UofA. If those players were SEC caliber players, they would be playing for a SEC team.

All of the LR stuff is emotion. " My grandpappy took me to LR games when I was 8" " I remember going to LR games with my dad in 1966, or 1976, or whenever " " Some of my greatest times were tailgating on the golf course, I got too drunk to remember them myself, but I hear those were great times " " I toasted marshmallows in the heat of a burning coach on the golf course " and on and on and on.

This is pure stupidity.  I live in Nashville, Tennessee and haven't had a dog in the fight for 25 years.  But guess what?  Unlike you I am an alum and spent my first thirty years in Little Rock going to games in both stadiums.  I know the people there and understand the impact Razorbacks games had on the community. I also know how things work in Arkansas politics, particularly Little Rock politics, and I know some of the key players involved here and know how they think.

You have no idea what you're talking about.  The issue is serious and always has been.  It has nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with the best interest of the university and the state.  The people who make decisions aren't interested in message boards. understand this.
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

The_Iceman

Games is LR made sense when WMS was bigger and nicer than the stadium in Fayetteville.

Now, it makes no sense to play a game in that dump of a stadium when we have an 80,000+ seat palace ON CAMPUS and will generate a lot more revenue.

Also, back in the old days, there wasn't this thing called I-49/540 that gets you from CA to NWA in short time.

Lard

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on November 17, 2017, 08:44:42 am
It's not total nostalgia, although that plays a part.  I think it's more of a question of how much of a moral responsibility does UA Athletics owe Little Rock?  For about 75 years, Little Rock money, media, and fans support made Razorback athletics.  That's just a fact.  If the University of Arkansas had to rely on Northwest Arkansas resources through most of the 1900's, it would basically be Arkansas State.  Little Rock was where the resources were to maintain a major program.

Some people in Central Arkansas feel that, after having sustained and grown the program for most of a century, the University turned its back on Little Rock as soon as there was a dollar in doing so.  I don't know that's completely true, but there were some fans and major donors that got the feeling of being disposable after decades of support.

The question is how much of an obligation, if any, does UA Athletics owe Central Arkansas?  It's not really an economic question--the accounting side of it is easy to determine.
I get that sentiment but that is also exactly why it makes no sense to play there now.  At one time it was best for the program to play in LR.  But times change and it's now best for the program to play on campus.  I'm for doing what's best for the program.  Even if WMS was nice I'd still say it doesn't make sense to play there because of the financial aspect and the recruiting aspect.
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." - John Quincy Adams

Cotton

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on November 17, 2017, 08:44:42 am
It's not total nostalgia, although that plays a part.  I think it's more of a question of how much of a moral responsibility does UA Athletics owe Little Rock?  For about 75 years, Little Rock money, media, and fan support made Razorback athletics.  That's just a fact.  If the University of Arkansas had to rely on Northwest Arkansas resources through most of the 1900's, it would basically be Arkansas State.  Little Rock was where the resources were to maintain a major program.

Some people in Central Arkansas feel that, after having sustained and grown the program for most of a century, the University turned its back on Little Rock as soon as there was a dollar in doing so.  I don't know that's completely true, but there were some fans and major donors that got the feeling of being disposable after decades of support.

The question is how much of an obligation, if any, does UA Athletics owe Central Arkansas?  It's not really an economic question--the accounting side of it is easy to determine.
The times they are a changin' my friend. Other programs have pulled out of the economic centers and moved all games on campus as well. 

It's not like we're taking Arkansas off our jerseys and changing our name to the University of NWA.   
"Who got a Scantron for Ryan Mallet?"  - Ryan Mallet, 2009

Razorbacks in Mexico

Ponderin' SUX

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: bphi11ips on November 17, 2017, 08:48:43 am
This is pure stupidity.  I live in Nashville, Tennessee and haven't had a dog in the fight for 25 years.  But guess what?  Unlike you I am an alum and spent my first thirty years in Little Rock going to games in both stadiums.  I know the people there and understand the impact Razorbacks games had on the community. I also know how things work in Arkansas politics, particularly Little Rock politics, and I know some of the key players involved here and know how they think.

You have no idea what you're talking about.  The issue is serious and always has been.  It has nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with the best interest of the university and the state.  The people who make decisions aren't interested in message boards. understand this.

The debate is what is in the best interest of the university and program.  I don't believe the WMS crowd truly ever cared about that nearly as much as their own desires and interests.

But since we are going to keep playing there, ideas on how to fix it? 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: Cotton on November 17, 2017, 08:51:39 am
The times they are a changin' my friend. Other programs have pulled out of the economic centers and moved all games on campus as well. 

It's not like we're taking Arkansas off our jerseys and changing our name to the University of NWA.   

Don't necessarily disagree.  Ole Miss left Jackson behind in the 1990s after playing a couple of games there for years for many of the same reasons Arkansas plays in Little Rock.  I don't think Jackson played the same outsized role that Little Rock played for Arkansas.  Bama pulled out of Legion Field years ago as well.

People want to know why this is such a passionate argument.  I think the reasons I stated in my post are the crux for why some people in Central Arkansas are as passionate about it as they are.
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

Tusker4life

Dickey Stephens was built on land donated by Warren Stephens. It just happened to be on the north side of the river. There was no place on the south side after they built the Clinton library monstrosity. 
Cheering for Alabama because they are in the SEC is like cheering for the Devil because he is in the Bible...

 

hogsanity

For most supporters of games in LR it just goes along with the overall mindset of Hog fans. We want top steak at flank steak prices.   We whine about ticket prices, when our tickets are still some of the lowest in all of the p5 leagues. We want top level coaches, but want them to sign contract far below market rate or low base with a ton of incentives. We want to have all the things, nice stadium indoor facilities, etc, but do not want to do what is necessary to pay for them. Most fans that want games in LR do so because it is easier and cheaper for them to go there.

As for the political aspects of it, that also goes right along with Ar politics. Arkansas politicians, like the population in general, wish it was still 55. Now whether that is 1855 or 1955 is up for debate.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: nwahogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 08:46:30 am
Does any other P5 team have two stadiums and their fans are so split on this issue?  I just can not see us pouring $200+ million into a stadium in Fayetteville which is much, much prettier with all the fancy upgrades having to play a game which loses money at another location 200 miles away. 

I just do not understand it.  Are we spoiled as fans?  Probable?  I think if we were winning 8+ games a year this would not be a debate.

We're Arkansas.  Where else do you get this kind of soap opera nonsense? 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: hogsanity on November 17, 2017, 08:55:46 am
For most supporters of games in LR it just goes along with the overall mindset of Hog fans. We want top steak at flank steak prices.   We whine about ticket prices, when our tickets are still some of the lowest in all of the p5 leagues. We want top level coaches, but want them to sign contract far below market rate or low base with a ton of incentives. We want to have all the things, nice stadium indoor facilities, etc, but do not want to do what is necessary to pay for them. Most fans that want games in LR do so because it is easier and cheaper for them to go there.

As for the political aspects of it, that also goes right along with Ar politics. Arkansas politicians, like the population in general, wish it was still 55. Now whether that is 1855 or 1955 is up for debate.

I don't even think it is that anymore.  It's ego, regional rivalries, scared of change, resentment, etc.

All fan bases have their nuances.  Ours though good lord do we have them.  Infighting and resentment over so much.  People like Long come in and try to run things like a more normal situation.  Arkansas doesn't do normal. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

hogsanity

Quote from: nwahogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 08:46:30 am
Does any other P5 team have two stadiums and their fans are so split on this issue?  I just can not see us pouring $200+ million into a stadium in Fayetteville which is much, much prettier with all the fancy upgrades having to play a game which loses money at another location 200 miles away. 

I just do not understand it.  Are we spoiled as fans?  Probable?  I think if we were winning 8+ games a year this would not be a debate.

Nope. Some play a off campus neutral site game for a big time early season ooc game. And there are a few game, OU/TX, FL/Ga that have been played at a neutral site for decades. No other p5 team has two "home" stadiums.

It would be a debate if the Hogs were winning 11 games a year.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

The_Iceman

Some of my favorite memories growing up was driving from Fort Smith with my dad for the LR football game. I loved the complete bowl of WMS, walking thru the golf course, and how rowdy those games were.

But as RRS updated and improved, and WMS fell into a horrible state, I realized it has outlived its purpose. With the great stadium on campus, an interstate getting you from Central Arkansas right to the stadium, and the lost revenue to play in LR.....why play there?

Tusker4life

I say we keep our Central Arkansas money here and stop keeping the nwa Razorbacks afloat, they are awful to begin with. I am sure Jonesboro wouldnt mind some extra support.  Its amazing how snobbish NWA is towards the rest of the state. Not a lot to brag about up there, all you have is Wal Mart. Nobody here here wants to watch you play a third rate team and struggle to beat them.
Cheering for Alabama because they are in the SEC is like cheering for the Devil because he is in the Bible...

ur

I remember wms having two waves going one way and one wave going the other. Take that RRS.  ;)

The NewEra

Quote from: hoglady on November 17, 2017, 08:35:33 am
Long and Bielema were both polarizing figures on the WMS issue.

Neither really understood the issue and they alienated fans over it.

Whatever happens, hopefully the next AD will handle the issue better publicly and the next coach will have enough sense to not complain.

So true Hoglady.  For a coach to take sides on this issue was unwise at best.

As for me, my opinion on the GSD has changed over the years.  I am now of the belief that one SEC game at least every other year needs to be played at WMS.  The best idea I've seen presented on this is that we have the home game against Missouri played at WMS every other year.  Why?  Because it's the Thanksgiving Holiday and fewer students are on campus than any other time in the season.  On the alternating years??  I know there are some great ideas out there though.  Also, the Jerry World games need to be cancelled. 

Rice had a good point on this.  You can't expect Fayetteville season ticket holders to fork out big money for only five home games in the newly revitalized stadium. 

This is more of a political decision than it is financial.  My current position on this is that it's necessary to maintain a presence in WMS in order to keep the base as united as possible.  There are big money folks in Central Arkansas that deserve this.

I also like the idea of having the Spring Game played at WMS in order to throw another carrot to those in LR.  Charge $3-5 per person to pay for expenses. 

I fear pulling all games from LR will have a negative long term affect on the unity of the fan base. 

Cotton

Quote from: Tusker4life on November 17, 2017, 09:07:15 am
I say we keep our Central Arkansas money here and stop keeping the nwa Razorbacks afloat, they are awful to begin with. I am sure Jonesboro wouldnt mind some extra support.  Its amazing how snobbish NWA is towards the rest of the state. Not a lot to brag about up there, all you have is Wal Mart. Nobody here here wants to watch you play a third rate team and struggle to beat them.
It's not snobbish to make rational decisions on par with our peers.

Sure, take your money to Jonesboro but don't expect them to play any games in LR either.
"Who got a Scantron for Ryan Mallet?"  - Ryan Mallet, 2009

Razorbacks in Mexico

Ponderin' SUX

bphi11ips

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 08:53:51 am
The debate is what is in the best interest of the university and program.  I don't believe the WMS crowd truly ever cared about that nearly as much as their own desires and interests.

But since we are going to keep playing there, ideas on how to fix it? 

You and I discussed this the other day.  I agree that the end zone bleachers are a bigger problem than the east and west stands.  Your idea to rip them out and replace them with suites and club seating is one approach but may be a bit ambitious. It may also reduce capacity, which is a bigger issue.  Selling out WMS will not be a problem if the current fiasco of a PR problem can be cured.

The $10M in improvements are mostly related to infrastructure.  Bandwith is the real issue for both media and fans.  RRS has the same problem.  IMG is paying for the upgrades there as part of its 10 year deal for rights.  Dressing rooms are an issue that needs to be addressed, as much for recruiting purposes as anything else.  Even FCS players now expect mahogany veneered lockers.  Officials need more room and comfort.  The concourses and concession areas are functional as they are, especially for one game per year. 

Curb appeal is what the average Hogville poster wants.  I suspect many who call WMS a dump and a high school stadium have never been near it.  It's capacity is greater than a bunch of P5 stadiums.  What Hogville posters want are ribbon boards and skyboxes and glass.  That is where I think cost effective improvements can be made and financed with luxury accomodations.  The key will be to wrap more events around one Razorbacks game.  I believe a consortium of state, local and private players will be involved and to some extent will take an "if you build it they will come approach".  They will view it as a necessary expense to compete with similarly situated metropolitan areas around the country.  Little Rock has lagged far behind because it has ignored its infrastructure, among other things.

What's good for Little Rock is good for Arkansas.  That's what concerns Governor Hutchinson.  Neither Little Rock nor Arkansas can afford to tear down WMS and put up a shiny new 50,000 plus football stadium.  They can afford to renovate an already good facility by comparison for the purpose needed here.  That is what I predict will happen. As with all resolutions of difficult problems, no one will be completely happy with the result.   
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 08:53:51 am
The debate is what is in the best interest of the university and program.  I don't believe the WMS crowd truly ever cared about that nearly as much as their own desires and interests.

But since we are going to keep playing there, ideas on how to fix it? 

How to fix it: 

I think you've got to put about $50-$75 million in it to really get it up to somewhere worth the UA making a longterm commitment.  I think you get that with:

--Pulaski County voters have to approve a one-year, 1% sales tax for the stadium.  That will generate about $25 million.  A two-year tax might get as much as $50 million.
--You have to get private donors to chip in, big time.  The renovation needs to include suites added to the east side.  A good analog would probably be the recent expansion in Jonesboro with 20 suites plus club/loge seating.  I think you've got to raise $20 million from private donations/sales.
--Sell the naming rights.  Let's say they're worth $5 million.
--The State of Arkansas has to kick in some money.  That might be able to come from the Quick Action Trust Fund (not sure if its eligible for this kind of funding), or a transfer from the lately imperiled General Improvement Fund to the appropriation for the Arkansas Department of Parks and Tourism.  Let's put that tab at $10 million.
--Miscellaneous preservation grants.  Unbelievably, War Memorial Stadium isn't on the National Register of Historical Places.  Maybe Parks can come up with a Save America's Treasures grant or other similar historic preservation grants.  Maybe another $1 million there, although that's pretty uncertain.
--The University agrees to play at least 1 game in the stadium for at least 20 years, with the game being a conference game every other year. 

On the low side, this generates about $60 million.  On the high side, about $85 million. 
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

bphi11ips

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on November 17, 2017, 09:29:04 am
How to fix it: 

I think you've got to put about $50-$75 million in it to really get it up to somewhere worth the UA making a longterm commitment.  I think you get that with:

--Pulaski County voters have to approve a one-year, 1% sales tax for the stadium.  That will generate about $25 million.  A two-year tax might get as much as $50 million.
--You have to get private donors to chip in, big time.  The renovation needs to include suites added to the east side.  A good analog would probably be the recent expansion in Jonesboro with 20 suites plus club/loge seating.  I think you've got to raise $20 million from private donations/sales.
--Sell the naming rights.  Let's say they're worth $5 million.
--The State of Arkansas has to kick in some money.  That might be able to come from the Quick Action Trust Fund (not sure if its eligible for this kind of funding), or a transfer from the lately imperiled General Improvement Fund to the appropriation for the Arkansas Department of Parks and Tourism.  Let's put that tab at $10 million.
--Miscellaneous preservation grants.  Unbelievably, War Memorial Stadium isn't on the National Register of Historical Places.  Maybe Parks can come up with a Save America's Treasures grant or other similar historic preservation grants.  Maybe another $1 million there, although that's pretty uncertain.
--The University agrees to play at least 1 game in the stadium for at least 20 years, with the game being a conference game every other year. 

On the low side, this generates about $60 million.  On the high side, about $85 million. 

👍
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

ricepig


Atlhogfan1

Quote from: bphi11ips on November 17, 2017, 09:28:37 am
You and I discussed this the other day.  I agree that the end zone bleachers are a bigger problem than the east and west stands.  Your idea to rip them out and replace them with suites and club seating is one approach but may be a bit ambitious. It may also reduce capacity, which is a bigger issue.  Selling out WMS will not be a problem if the current fiasco of a PR problem can be cured.

The $10M in improvements are mostly related to infrastructure.  Bandwith is the real issue for both media and fans.  RRS has the same problem.  IMG is paying for the upgrades there as part of its 10 year deal for rights.  Dressing rooms are an issue that needs to be addressed, as much for recruiting purposes as anything else.  Even FCS players now expect mahogany veneered lockers.  Officials need more room and comfort.  The concourses and concession areas are functional as they are, especially for one game per year. 

Curb appeal is what the average Hogville poster wants.  I suspect many who call WMS a dump and a high school stadium have never been near it.  It's capacity is greater than a bunch of P5 stadiums.  What Hogville posters want are ribbon boards and skyboxes and glass.  That is where I think cost effective improvements can be made and financed with luxury accomodations.  The key will be to wrap more events around one Razorbacks game.  I believe a consortium of state, local and private players will be involved and to some extent will take an "if you build it they will come approach".  They will view it as a necessary expense to compete with similarly situated metropolitan areas around the country.  Little Rock has lagged far behind because it has ignored its infrastructure, among other things.

What's good for Little Rock is good for Arkansas.  That's what concerns Governor Hutchinson.  Neither Little Rock nor Arkansas can afford to tear down WMS and put up a shiny new 50,000 plus football stadium.  They can afford to renovate an already good facility by comparison for the purpose needed here.  That is what I predict will happen. As with all resolutions of difficult problems, no one will be completely happy with the result.

My suggestion for the endzones was to include premium seating area.  But due to capacity, it would have to be majority bleachers put back in. 

$10 million isn't enough.  Those fixes shouldn't be the goal. 

They want a stadium which isn't embarrassing.  Hosting a program like UGa there a few seasons ago was embarrassing.

I wouldn't even consider a new stadium unless it was discovered WMS needs structural repairs which would make renovating financially dumb.  Well dumber than pouring millions in for one football game a season plus maybe a few concerts and monster trucks. 

If LR wants this venue and the benefits from it, then LR and Pulaski Co need to be significant contributors NOW.  This reno shouldn't wait any longer if the Hogs are going to be forced to play their for the "betterment of the state."
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on November 17, 2017, 09:29:04 am
How to fix it: 

I think you've got to put about $50-$75 million in it to really get it up to somewhere worth the UA making a longterm commitment.  I think you get that with:

--Pulaski County voters have to approve a one-year, 1% sales tax for the stadium.  That will generate about $25 million.  A two-year tax might get as much as $50 million.
--You have to get private donors to chip in, big time.  The renovation needs to include suites added to the east side.  A good analog would probably be the recent expansion in Jonesboro with 20 suites plus club/loge seating.  I think you've got to raise $20 million from private donations/sales.
--Sell the naming rights.  Let's say they're worth $5 million.
--The State of Arkansas has to kick in some money.  That might be able to come from the Quick Action Trust Fund (not sure if its eligible for this kind of funding), or a transfer from the lately imperiled General Improvement Fund to the appropriation for the Arkansas Department of Parks and Tourism.  Let's put that tab at $10 million.
--Miscellaneous preservation grants.  Unbelievably, War Memorial Stadium isn't on the National Register of Historical Places.  Maybe Parks can come up with a Save America's Treasures grant or other similar historic preservation grants.  Maybe another $1 million there, although that's pretty uncertain.
--The University agrees to play at least 1 game in the stadium for at least 20 years, with the game being a conference game every other year. 

On the low side, this generates about $60 million.  On the high side, about $85 million.

Great ideas NSR. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 09:39:51 am
My suggestion for the endzones was to include premium seating area.  But due to capacity, it would have to be majority bleachers put back in. 

$10 million isn't enough.  Those fixes shouldn't be the goal. 

They want a stadium which isn't embarrassing.  Hosting a program like UGa there a few seasons ago was embarrassing.

I wouldn't even consider a new stadium unless it was discovered WMS needs structural repairs which would make renovating financially dumb.  Well dumber than pouring millions in for one football game a season plus maybe a few concerts and monster trucks. 

If LR wants this venue and the benefits from it, then LR and Pulaski Co need to be significant contributors NOW.  This reno shouldn't wait any longer if the Hogs are going to be forced to play their for the "betterment of the state."

I just can't see a way to raise what would really probably amount to $250 million to build a new stadium, especially for what amounts to a single game each year.  I just don't think that kind of money is out there.
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

ricepig

Quote from: Cotton on November 17, 2017, 08:34:39 am
Same could be said about Razorback fans in Tulsa, Joplin, and other areas.

Hell half the students are from Texas.

Actually they aren't, but 50% are from out of state.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on November 17, 2017, 09:43:31 am
I just can't see a way to raise what would really probably amount to $250 million to build a new stadium, especially for what amounts to a single game each year.  I just don't think that kind of money is out there.

Nope.  Would have to go on the cheap and build something like what UCF did but a little bigger.  New is not a solution for this situation.  Several years ago, the dream from the WMS people was to follow the lead of what was done at Lambeau.  No idea where that went or how they thought they could pay for it. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

The NewEra

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on November 17, 2017, 09:29:04 am
How to fix it: 

I think you've got to put about $50-$75 million in it to really get it up to somewhere worth the UA making a longterm commitment.  I think you get that with:

--Pulaski County voters have to approve a one-year, 1% sales tax for the stadium.  That will generate about $25 million.  A two-year tax might get as much as $50 million.
--You have to get private donors to chip in, big time.  The renovation needs to include suites added to the east side.  A good analog would probably be the recent expansion in Jonesboro with 20 suites plus club/loge seating.  I think you've got to raise $20 million from private donations/sales.
--Sell the naming rights.  Let's say they're worth $5 million.
--The State of Arkansas has to kick in some money.  That might be able to come from the Quick Action Trust Fund (not sure if its eligible for this kind of funding), or a transfer from the lately imperiled General Improvement Fund to the appropriation for the Arkansas Department of Parks and Tourism.  Let's put that tab at $10 million.
--Miscellaneous preservation grants.  Unbelievably, War Memorial Stadium isn't on the National Register of Historical Places.  Maybe Parks can come up with a Save America's Treasures grant or other similar historic preservation grants.  Maybe another $1 million there, although that's pretty uncertain.
--The University agrees to play at least 1 game in the stadium for at least 20 years, with the game being a conference game every other year. 

On the low side, this generates about $60 million.  On the high side, about $85 million.

Good Post!  The key here is the Governor, the University and the Big Money Donors in Central Arkansas need to work together with a serious dedication to making this happen.  As your post shows, there is a way.  People have to muster the will and can they sell it to NWA and Central Arkansas?

ur

It won't be long until people on here will be talking about how their dad had season tickets for RRS and they remember getting excited going through the tunnel headed up I49 so why is there talk about playing in an old stadium in LR that nobody remembers. We will be in the old folks home reminiscing about the glory days of HV.

bphi11ips

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on November 17, 2017, 09:39:51 am
My suggestion for the endzones was to include premium seating area.  But due to capacity, it would have to be majority bleachers put back in. 

$10 million isn't enough.  Those fixes shouldn't be the goal. 

They want a stadium which isn't embarrassing.  Hosting a program like UGa there a few seasons ago was embarrassing.

I wouldn't even consider a new stadium unless it was discovered WMS needs structural repairs which would make renovating financially dumb.  Well dumber than pouring millions in for one football game a season plus maybe a few concerts and monster trucks. 

If LR wants this venue and the benefits from it, then LR and Pulaski Co need to be significant contributors NOW.  This reno shouldn't wait any longer if the Hogs are going to be forced to play their for the "betterment of the state."

You have some good thoughts but waffle between anger and rationality.

I think it's pretty clear I don't think $10M gets things started.

I disagree that WMS is embarrassing.  First, Georgia and everyone else knows RRS is in Fayetteville and that WMS is a second home field.  More importantly, the characterization of WMS as something to be ashamed of is overblown.  If you have been in as many SEC stadiums as I have been in for 25 years I think you will agree.  They all have areas where the lipstick is obvious.  Some lipstick is very recent, like in Starkville and Oxford.  Vanderbilt is still waiting on it. 

The Razorbacks have not been forced to play in Little Rock for a century.  They could have stayed in Fayetteville and built a nice little team along the lines of Missouri State. 
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

bphi11ips

Quote from: ricepig on November 17, 2017, 09:43:41 am
Actually they aren't, but 50% are from out of state.

Is that the 50% who leave at halftime?
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

ricepig

Quote from: bphi11ips on November 17, 2017, 09:58:47 am
Is that the 50% who leave at halftime?

I don't know, get season tickets and ask them yourself.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: bphi11ips on November 17, 2017, 09:57:49 am
You have some good thoughts but waffle between anger and rationality.

I think it's pretty clear I don't think $10M gets things started.

I disagree that WMS is embarrassing.  First, Georgia and everyone else knows RRS is in Fayetteville and that WMS is a second home field.  More importantly, the characterization of WMS as something to be ashamed of is overblown.  If you have been in as many SEC stadiums as I have been in for 25 years I think you will agree.  They all have areas where the lipstick is obvious.  Some lipstick is very recent, like in Starkville and Oxford.  Vanderbilt is still waiting on it. 

The Razorbacks have not been forced to play in Little Rock for a century.  They could have stayed in Fayetteville and built a nice little team along the lines of Missouri State.

I do.  I know.

I've been to many SEC stadiums.  All have had some level of renovation and some significant.  Vanderbilt's is actually a nice, clean little stadium as you know.  Not cramped. 

It isn't just the fan experience or just the player experience.  When you look at WMS in its current state, it is inferior in every area except the new press box. 

The Hogs are being forced there right now.  I would hope soon it will be attractive again for them to want to play that one game there. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

cjack

Quote from: hoglady on November 17, 2017, 08:35:33 am
Long and Bielema were both polarizing figures on the WMS issue.

Neither really understood the issue and they alienated fans over it.

Whatever happens, hopefully the next AD will handle the issue better publicly and the next coach will have enough sense to not complain.


Exactly.  Short and to the point.
Woooo Pig Soooie!

Little Lady Back

Quote from: hoglady on November 17, 2017, 08:35:33 am
Long and Bielema were both polarizing figures on the WMS issue.

Neither really understood the issue and they alienated fans over it.

Whatever happens, hopefully the next AD will handle the issue better publicly and the next coach will have enough sense to not complain.

Agree with Hoglady.
#NolanRichardsonCourt