A final thought on the defensive substitution question

[HoovHawg]

Is there any rule that would prevent a defensive player from just taking a knee when he is tired? I don't mean faking an injury. I'm saying just take a knee because you are just too tired to play another down. Then the coach could send another player in for you while the clock was stopped and you could just walk off the field. Is this too simplistic?

[PorkRinds]

Is there any rule that would prevent a defensive player from just taking a knee when he is tired? I don't mean faking an injury. I'm saying just take a knee because you are just too tired to play another down. Then the coach could send another player in for you while the clock was stopped and you could just walk off the field. Is this too simplistic?

You could, but then they could snap the ball when you're on one knee and plaster you all over the ground...I want to see a bunch of teams fake injuries just to make a point.

[HoovHawg]

That's true. But I have never seen an official not stop the play if a player is on one knee and out of a normal defensive position.

[PorkRinds]

That's true. But I have never seen an official not stop the play if a player is on one knee and out of a normal defensive position.

It would really be no different than just taking a fall IMO...

[thirrdegreetusker]

Here's my question. I wondered about this LONG before any of this HUNH stuff came up.

Late in the half/game, offense makes a nice gain, and rushes downfield to line up and snap the ball. And we have all seen defenders hurry WITH them. What rules says a defender, having rushed the passer hard, and gotten buried by an OL, has to pop up and sprint back?

Can't he just get to this feet and walk back without the possibility of incurring a penalty? Can he stop and look for signals from the sideline? While still on the offensive side of the LOS?

[HoovHawg]

You're right. The effect would be just like taking a fall. But the "intent" , to the extent that matters, would be "pure" . Thanks for your thoughts, Pork.

[HoovHawg]

Here's my question. I wondered about this LONG before any of this HUNH stuff came up.

Late in the half/game, offense makes a nice gain, and rushes downfield to line up and snap the ball. And we have all seen defenders hurry WITH them. What rules says a defender, having rushed the passer hard, and gotten buried by an OL, has to pop up and sprint back?

Can't he just get to this feet and walk back without the possibility of incurring a penalty? Can he stop and look for signals from the sideline? While still on the offensive side of the LOS?

I have seen that called offsides on the defensive player.

[Pancetta]

I always wanted to walk over to the offensive huddle and stand right there with them and then jog back when the offense did. I dont know that there is any rule against this. Can anyone think of a penalty refs could call? I never did it because by the time I got the nerve it was playoffs and I didnt want to hurt the team if there was a penalty for it that I didnt know about.

[ChicoHog]

If the offense can sub after a play then why can't the defense?  Make a rule that all subs must be within a certain time frame, 5 seconds, 10 seconds or 15 or whatever.  As long as one side can sub the other side should be able to also.   

[JIHawg]

If the offense can sub after a play then why can't the defense?  Make a rule that all subs must be within a certain time frame, 5 seconds, 10 seconds or 15 or whatever.  As long as one side can sub the other side should be able to also.   

If the offense subs, then the defense can sub also.  That's the current rule.  The unlevel playing field aspect of it is the offense can sub anytime they want, the defense can't.  They can only sub if the offense subs.

[A_R_K_A_N_S_A_S]

The defense can sub anytime they want to, they don't have to wait on the offense to sub. The no huddle offense was designed, in part to keep the defense from subbing. When the offense gets to the LOS in a hurry and is prepared to the snap the ball, the defense just simply does not have time to sub because the offense can snap the ball while the defensive player(s) are out of position trying to run on and off the field and may get caught with to many players on the field. Occasionally defenses are able to sub when the offense is in the HUNH and ironically Gus's teams are one of the best at subbing on defense against the HUNH offense. Example: If the end of a play ends up near the defense's bench, you can run a player off the field real quick and get another in very easily. Now if the offense does sub, the defense is given time to sub also, but the defense can sub anytime they want if they are willing to take the chance of being out of position or having too many men on the field. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Here's my question. I wondered about this LONG before any of this HUNH stuff came up.

Late in the half/game, offense makes a nice gain, and rushes downfield to line up and snap the ball. And we have all seen defenders hurry WITH them. What rules says a defender, having rushed the passer hard, and gotten buried by an OL, has to pop up and sprint back?

Can't he just get to this feet and walk back without the possibility of incurring a penalty? Can he stop and look for signals from the sideline? While still on the offensive side of the LOS?

This excerpt from an article written by an official may explain that to some degree.

The scrimmage line concept also involves time. The rule against encroachment applies only during the dead ball interval between plays--that is, the time between the end of the previous play and the snap that marks the beginning of the next play. But the rule does not apply to the whole dead ball interval. There is a brief period after the previous play's termination when the neutral zone and the scrimmage lines do not exist. Obviously, it would be silly to enforce the encroachment rule while receivers were trotting back to their huddle or before officials had spotted the ball.

In fact, the encroachment rule comes into effect in two stages: The first stage commences when the referee gives the ready-for-play signal--or, as officials often refer to it, when he "chops-in." The ready-for-play signal consists of a short whistle blast and a chopping motion with the right forearm. As it happens, chopping-in is a signal referees rather like to stylize to their own tastes--so that there are a great many ways to chop-in. No matter how it is executed, however, the ready-for-play signal indicates that the offense now has 25 seconds to snap the ball and that no player may henceforth either (a) touch the ball or an opponent or (b) be present in the neutral zone (as the rule book puts it) "to give defensive signals." It bears noting that in this stage players are not proscribed outright from entering the neutral zone. The language of (b) gives umpires the legal wherewithal to herd defensive huddlers away from the newly spotted ball. The second stage commences "after the snapper has placed his hand(s) on the ball"--thereafter, no player (aside from the snapper) may allow any part of his body to enter the neutral zone, period.

http://www.roizen.com/ron/scrimmage.htm

According to what this official says, if a defensive player is dragging his feet in getting to the new LOS and in the meantime the offense gets over the ball, the defensive player could ge flagged for "encroachment" or maybe even "delay of game" if they feel he is impairing the offense's opportunity to snap the ball.

[Mike_e]

This excerpt from an article written by an official may explain that to some degree.

The scrimmage line concept also involves time. The rule against encroachment applies only during the dead ball interval between plays--that is, the time between the end of the previous play and the snap that marks the beginning of the next play. But the rule does not apply to the whole dead ball interval. There is a brief period after the previous play's termination when the neutral zone and the scrimmage lines do not exist. Obviously, it would be silly to enforce the encroachment rule while receivers were trotting back to their huddle or before officials had spotted the ball.

In fact, the encroachment rule comes into effect in two stages: The first stage commences when the referee gives the ready-for-play signal--or, as officials often refer to it, when he "chops-in." The ready-for-play signal consists of a short whistle blast and a chopping motion with the right forearm. As it happens, chopping-in is a signal referees rather like to stylize to their own tastes--so that there are a great many ways to chop-in. No matter how it is executed, however, the ready-for-play signal indicates that the offense now has 25 seconds to snap the ball and that no player may henceforth either (a) touch the ball or an opponent or (b) be present in the neutral zone (as the rule book puts it) "to give defensive signals." It bears noting that in this stage players are not proscribed outright from entering the neutral zone. The language of (b) gives umpires the legal wherewithal to herd defensive huddlers away from the newly spotted ball. The second stage commences "after the snapper has placed his hand(s) on the ball"--thereafter, no player (aside from the snapper) may allow any part of his body to enter the neutral zone, period.

http://www.roizen.com/ron/scrimmage.htm

According to what this official says, if a defensive player is dragging his feet in getting to the new LOS and in the meantime the offense gets over the ball, the defensive player could ge flagged for "encroachment" or maybe even "delay of game" if they feel he is impairing the offense's opportunity to snap the ball.

For that to happen then the official would have to 'chop in' before the defensive player had gotten back to his side of the ball.

The defensive player might get called for delay but not off sides I think.

The other side of this is that the player would be out of position when he returned unless he was an end or a corner back.

You might get away with this a few times a game.  Like with timeouts, you'd just have to pick your spots.

[justmaybe]

One thing I would like to see change is quit allowing the offensive team to line up then relax and stand back up and look to the sidelines for a new play. It wouldn't  allow the defense to sub but it would take some of the advantage from the offense. It would force in a way a  little bit of a slow down as the offense would have to have things set up before starting the play. Right now they force the defense's hand by getting to the line then being able to readjust. I'm okay with an offensive game but would like to see a little defense.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

For that to happen then the official would have to 'chop in' before the defensive player had gotten back to his side of the ball.

The defensive player might get called for delay but not off sides I think.

The other side of this is that the player would be out of position when he returned unless he was an end or a corner back.

You might get away with this a few times a game.  Like with timeouts, you'd just have to pick your spots.

And that could happen if you have a few defensive players dragging and taking their time getting to the new LOS when the offense has just hit a play of about 15 or 20 yards and the defensive players are essentially, behind the offense when they return to the new LOS.

I would imagine that if that happened a couple of times, the officials would issue a warning to the defensive sideline and if it continued, they would be flagged.

But the key here is what this official said about when the Center places his hand on the ball. That is when the "encroachment rule" seems to become "active". Just coming to the LOS and linemen bending over and resting their forearms on their thighs and then standing back up, would not make the "encroachment rule" active, according to how he explains it.

Based on that, I would assume that if all of the defensive players were repeatedly not back on their side of the ball while the offense was doing the "meerkat", they could, theoretically, be flagged for delay of game, even if the 25 second clock had not expired. But that would be an interesting question to pose to a College Official as to how they would handle a situation like that.

[Mike_e]

And that could happen if you have a few defensive players dragging and taking their time getting to the new LOS when the offense has just hit a play of about 15 or 20 yards and the defensive players are essentially, behind the offense when they return to the new LOS.

I would imagine that if that happened a couple of times, the officials would issue a warning to the defensive sideline and if it continued, they would be flagged.

But the key here is what this official said about when the Center places his hand on the ball. That is when the "encroachment rule" seems to become "active". Just coming to the LOS and linemen bending over and resting their forearms on their thighs and then standing back up, would not make the "encroachment rule" active, according to how he explains it.

Based on that, I would assume that if all of the defensive players were repeatedly not back on their side of the ball while the offense was doing the "meerkat", they could, theoretically, be flagged for delay of game, even if the 25 second clock had not expired. But that would be an interesting question to pose to a College Official as to how they would handle a situation like that.

I'd like to hear it, too.

It looks like we're just going to have their QB take a 'hard' tackle or three and sub while he's shaking out the cobwebs.  Yea, we're going to get flagged for it but I bet we can take more flags than their QB can take body slams. 

[Mike_e]

I'll bet ol' gusser never thought about the safety issue actually being about his QB getting creamed just so the D could get a blow!

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I'd like to hear it, too.

It looks like we're just going to have their QB take a 'hard' tackle or three and sub while he's shaking out the cobwebs.  Yea, we're going to get flagged for it but I bet we can take more flags than their QB can take body slams. 

Watch, vs. Auburn this year I would almost bet that we see one or two of our defensive players suddenly fall to the ground for no explicable reason at key moments in the game. Payback sucks, Gus.

[tbhogfan]

Is there any rule that would prevent a defensive player from just taking a knee when he is tired? I don't mean faking an injury. I'm saying just take a knee because you are just too tired to play another down. Then the coach could send another player in for you while the clock was stopped and you could just walk off the field. Is this too simplistic?

There is no rule prohibiting this, and generally a ref will (but does not have to) stop play when a player takes a knee, since they generally want to err on the side of player safety.

More likely, I think you are going to see teams instruct players to go to the ground (like Auburn did against us last year) when the defense needs a rest. 

[three hog night]

Watch, vs. Auburn this year I would almost bet that we see one or two of our defensive players suddenly fall to the ground for no explicable reason at key moments in the game. Payback sucks, Gus.

I hope so.   I also want to see us hit marshall after the handoff.

[Hogwild]

I always wanted to walk over to the offensive huddle and stand right there with them and then jog back when the offense did. I dont know that there is any rule against this. Can anyone think of a penalty refs could call?

If the ball is set, and any of the offensive players makes contact with you, you would get a penalty.