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Is our secondary really at fault?

Started by HOGBITS, September 23, 2012, 09:27:25 am

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HOGBITS

Our defensive backs are getting beat on a regular basis by the receivers. Is it more a situation of poor coverage or we can't get any pressure on their quarterback?  ???

1Hog1/2Ham

Quote from: HOGBITS on September 23, 2012, 09:27:25 am
Our defensive backs are getting beat on a regular basis by the receivers. Is it more a situation of poor coverage or we can't get any pressure on their quarterback?  ???
Both

 

LSPRazorbac

Both.

We lack basic fundentals in coverage.

Bad scheme.  (its apparent Rasner is a bad matchup for the slot receiver.)

No pressure on QB.


Weare playing very aggressiveagainst the run but very soft in coverage.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: HOGBITS on September 23, 2012, 09:27:25 am
Our defensive backs are getting beat on a regular basis by the receivers. Is it more a situation of poor coverage or we can't get any pressure on their quarterback?  ???

No doubt that we aren't getting enough pressure on the QB, but that doesn't have anything to do with giving receivers 5 to 10 yard cushions and allowing them to catch uncontested balls.
Go Hogs Go!

Pig In The City

Quote from: HOGBITS on September 23, 2012, 09:27:25 am
Our defensive backs are getting beat on a regular basis by the receivers. Is it more a situation of poor coverage or we can't get any pressure on their quarterback?  ???

It appeared that Haynes moved the safeties up for run support or to try and get pressure on the QB.  I am not sure where they were on those plays that went for TDs.  This left inexperienced corners with no backside support.  This is something I would never do unless you want what happened last night to be reality. 

Oh, and they better get Rasner out of coverage because well...he can't do it.  Time to abandon the 4-3 and return to the 4-2-5.  Time to put Rasner back as a sub LB or sub safety.  We are getting killed in coverage.  Time to blitz like lightening and cover the hot routes out of the backfield and hope we don't get burned too badly.  This is the only thing that will save the lack of experience at corner right now.

The_Iceman

Both.

Bobby hasn't recruited a single playmaker on the Defense.

Pig In The City

Quote from: The_Iceman on September 23, 2012, 09:40:14 am
Both.

Bobby hasn't recruited a single playmaker on the Defense.

There are some.  They are just not ready to play as freshman.

Hawk

I thought while watching last night that Will Hine's youth caught up with him and our young LB's as well. Ross Rasner has a ton of heart but the secondary doesn't look like a good place for him. Injuries and a lack of experience hurt last night.

The D Line stuffed the run for the most part, their best game so far. When Rutger's figured out they could throw the ball pretty much at will, it changed the game. (Didn't hurt that the offense went fairly "brain-dead" for the 2nd quarter either)

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: Hawk on September 23, 2012, 09:42:01 am
I thought while watching last night that Will Hine's youth caught up with him and our young LB's as well. Ross Rasner has a ton of heart but the secondary doesn't look like a good place for him. Injuries and a lack of experience hurt last night.

The D Line stuffed the run for the most part, their best game so far. When Rutger's figured out they could throw the ball pretty much at will, it changed the game. (Didn't hurt that the offense went fairly "brain-dead" for the 2nd quarter either)

The thing that completely mystified me was a particular 3rd and 10 for Rutgers where we blitzed every single LB, their QB called a "hot route" and tossed a quick slant behind the LB's for the 1st down. I mean, really? Are our coaches that dumb?

Blitz one LB, OK...got it. But all of them and just opening up the quick slant for an easy 1st down?

This is typical of the mistakes that we are making that have a lot less to do with the kids or their talent level and a heck of a lot more with calls by the coaching staff.
Go Hogs Go!

jamie72921

Not entirely, but they still aren't very good.

Rasner can't cover at all, but the secondary is getting hung out to dry because there is ZERO pressure being put on the qb by the front 4 or through scheme.
Bless your heart

elksnort

Quote from: The_Iceman on September 23, 2012, 09:40:14 am
Both.

Bobby hasn't recruited a single playmaker on the Defense.
ding ding ding ding ding ding freakin' ding!

Our back seven is not high d-1 level. This is nice as I can say it.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: elksnort on September 23, 2012, 09:49:04 am
ding ding ding ding ding ding freakin' ding!

Our back seven is not high d-1 level. This is nice as I can say it.

And I'll just say that if you fail to plan correctly, your plan fails. They are not even coaching these kids to make plays on the ball. You can't teach them to give receivers 5 to 10 yard cushions and allow receivers to make uncontested catches and have a true grip on the potential talent of the players in your secondary.

Give them a bad scheme and a bad plan and force them to play it, and you'll make them look like bad players every time. We are essentially giving our players a plan (or scheme) that causes them to fail because they are doing what they are being taught to do.

I do however agree that Rasner needs to go back to LB because he doesn't have the speed to match up against big, fast receivers. Better covering a RB out of the backfield.
Go Hogs Go!

elksnort

MHF,

I know that you know football. We've both been on this board awhile.

Could it be that our guys are not talented enough for press coverage? Although, I'd like to see it.

We just don't appear to have any high division 1 talent in the back 7. Bobby failed miserably in recruiting.

I know that you know this.

 

ThreeWayInn

They say Hines will be a good player....I am sure that is true...unfortunately he is playing when he is far from ready.

They could have thrown at him on every down...he had no clue...and I am not really bad mouthing him....just the situation he was put in.

Winston must really be in the doghouse for them to do that....not that he does not deserve to be there.

RebelliousHog

This idea of playing off the receivers goes back way more than BP. Nutts did it, too.
"Some there are who are nothing else than a passage for food and augmenters of excrement and fillers of privies, because through them no other things in the world, nor any good effects are produced, since nothing but full privies results from them."<br />―Leonardo da Vinci

Steef

The irony is, Haynes is/was supposed to be a whiz at secondary coaching.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: steefhog on September 23, 2012, 10:16:42 am
The irony is, Haynes is/was supposed to be a whiz at secondary coaching.

Well something is going on that is making everything go wrong because he always had a lot better pass defenses at Ohio State than what we have seen here. Is he being over-ruled? I don't know but it seems strange that he was knocking it out of the park at Ohio State and he is playing a soft Secondary here.
Go Hogs Go!

Cure

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on September 23, 2012, 10:21:57 am
Well something is going on that is making everything go wrong because he always had a lot better pass defenses at Ohio State than what we have seen here. Is he being over-ruled? I don't know but it seems strange that he was knocking it out of the park at Ohio State and he is playing a soft Secondary here.
Very rare that we played a soft man at Ohio State.
Team Economics
From Keynes to Friedman, we know what's up.

Aston Martin 8 dude

Unfortunately we're really caught between that ole "rock and a hard place". Lack of talent is not helped by a lack of coaching fundamentals and schemes; lack of coaching fundamentals is not helped by a lack of talent. When you're missing both you're really going to be in deep trouble.

LaHog12

Quote from: Hawk on September 23, 2012, 09:42:01 am
I thought while watching last night that Will Hine's youth caught up with him and our young LB's as well. Ross Rasner has a ton of heart but the secondary doesn't look like a good place for him. Injuries and a lack of experience hurt last night.

The D Line stuffed the run for the most part, their best game so far. When Rutger's figured out they could throw the ball pretty much at will, it changed the game. (Didn't hurt that the offense went fairly "brain-dead" for the 2nd quarter either)
I keep seeing people saying we stuffed the run for the most part, but letting their starting TB run for 118 yards is not stuffing the run. :puke:

tennhawg

the problems are up front in the middle and deep.  when you are weak at every phase then there is no one single solution or cause. It is all the above. Lack of recruits and talent and coaching fundamentals and player developement and lack of leadership, and on and on. Not a single answer but several.

Tim Harris

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on September 23, 2012, 10:21:57 am
Well something is going on that is making everything go wrong because he always had a lot better pass defenses at Ohio State than what we have seen here. Is he being over-ruled? I don't know but it seems strange that he was knocking it out of the park at Ohio State and he is playing a soft Secondary here.

That is the part I'm still tying to figure out. He always coached good secondary's at OSU. Even if he is overmatched as a DC I still expected him to improve our DB play.

Steef

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on September 23, 2012, 10:21:57 am
Well something is going on that is making everything go wrong because he always had a lot better pass defenses at Ohio State than what we have seen here. Is he being over-ruled? I don't know but it seems strange that he was knocking it out of the park at Ohio State and he is playing a soft Secondary here.

I understand. Someone is telling those DB's to play 10 yards off. Dunno who that someone is, but it's Haynes' job.

Train wreck, any way you look at it.

Tim Harris

Quote from: LaHog12 on September 23, 2012, 10:30:50 am
I keep seeing people saying we stuffed the run for the most part, but letting their starting TB run for 118 yards is not stuffing the run. :puke:

They ran the ball a ton of times. Our front 7 held them to 3.3 yards per carry. Stopping the run wasn't our biggest issue last night.

 

nwarazfan

Good lord, look at Oh St's DB recruiting while Haynes was there and compare it to ours recently. This isn't too   hard to figure out.  I agree that leaving 10 yd cushions on slot receivers on 3rd and 6 while rushing 3 is stupid.  But it's that or risk giving up much more.

Nelson>>>>>>Rasner
Thomas was a playmaker.
Franklin was reliable and was where he was supposed to be and made the plays he was supposed to which allowed Highsmith to play outside.
Bequette was our only pass rusher. 
Madison, Gatson and Ford provided depth.

We should have saw this coming with or without Bobby. 

Steef

Quote from: nwarazfan on September 23, 2012, 10:37:19 am
Good lord, look at Oh St's DB recruiting while Haynes was there and compare it to ours recently. This isn't too   hard to figure out.  I agree that leaving 10 yd cushions on slot receivers on 3rd and 6 while rushing 3 is stupid.  But it's that or risk giving up much more.

Nelson>>>>>>Rasner
Thomas was a playmaker.
Franklin was reliable and was where he was supposed to be and made the plays he was supposed to which allowed Highsmith to play outside.
Bequette was our only pass rusher. 
Madison, Gatson and Ford provided depth.

We should have saw this coming with or without Bobby.

There really isn't a 'much more' to give up. 10 six yard plays is just as effective as one 60 yard play.

Atreyu

Haynes D shone at Ohio State because it's the FREAKING BIG TEN.

Wisconsin-power running game.
Michigan-spread, with an overrated QB
Penn State- hasn't been good in years

The Big 10 isn't really a passing league. It's not hard to defend the pass when nobody passes.
1 by 1, we loaded our guns
up on the mountain all day
and all through the night
HEYHEYHEY

nwarazfan

Quote from: steefhog on September 23, 2012, 10:40:07 am
There really isn't a 'much more' to give up. 10 six yard plays is just as effective as one 60 yard play.

Yep.  The hope is the offense makes a mistake.  A penalty, 3rd down drop, turnover or at least just a FG.  The more plays they are forced to run, the more likely a mistake could happen during a drive.  It is frustrating to watch.

ErieHog

September 23, 2012, 10:49:28 am #28 Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 10:55:59 am by ErieHog
Quote from: HenduHog on September 23, 2012, 10:15:09 am
This idea of playing off the receivers goes back way more than BP. Nutts did it, too.

Well, we readily forget that the criticism of Chris Houston was over how often he was toasted in press/man situations.

The truth is that all defenses play a lot of multiple coverages.  We play more zone than average,  but that is to be expected, particularly with inexperienced and undertalented guys out there.

What people are looking at as '10 yard cushions' aren't failures by the corners, more often than not (some are-- mainly when we see young guys playing inside leverage, and giving up the outside throws);  they're doing what they are taught-- the problems arise in how horrendous our linebackers are at playing the zone under responsibilities.

I have never, ever seen a linebacking corps this bad at Arkansas;  I'm hard pressed to remember one this bad with any team I have watched at any level.

We have 1-- 1 legitimate SEC linebacker on the roster.   Highsmith is largely working alone, and by his own admission, has mental lapses and stretches of ineffective play (see his spy work vs.ULM) ;  we have Rasner playing a flex position that really doesn't suit his skill set-- he might be a pretty decent interior linebacker for running downs, if he had no coverage responsibility;  instead, other teams isolate him in space and abuse him, because he is usually given responsibility for the middle of the field short to intermediate.   This leads to our safeties cheating, and the inside technique of our corners, leaving the perimeters of the field subject to easy completions.

We see a complete cascade of failures, and players start guessing-- and there come the big busts that lead to big plays and scores.

If you need a great example of that, think back to the ULM drive where they missed the FG in the 4th quarter;  Rutgers had a 43 yard pass to the TE, where Rasner looked terrible because he was late getting outside.     Rather than bang on Ross for that play, though, he deserves some credit--  the play action suction completely baffled the safeties.

Ross, to his credit, didn't bite-- but he did gamble.   Rutgers had been working the middle with the TE and using it as a safety valve-- so Ross played inside, without any help over the top to the boundary.    When the TE took the route wide,  Rasner was in no position to make a play on the ball, and had to dive to even try to get him.

You can survive some missed tackles;  you can even survive one man failures, sometimes; what you can't survive is situations where you ask people to do things outside their natural skill sets, then fail all around them,  hoping that they won't fail too-- because every single time they do fail,  it's going to lead to a huge play.

No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Dumb ole famrboy

The coverage is so soft that the ball is out of the QB's hand so quick - I don't think Alabama's pass rush would make a difference.