Sexual Assualt

[Old Tusk]

DOD says 19000 reported a year, but they think there are 6 times that many happening. and 56% are man on man.  Maybe I was just naive, but this seems to be a huge issue. Any thought as to the cause?

[Pork Twain]

I am a Sexual Assault Response Corrdinator Victim Advocate (SARC VA) for going four years now and those numbers are right on the money.  They are the reason the new Chief of Staff has made it a priority and is trying to change the military culture.

[CPO Hog]

I am a Sexual Assault Response Corrdinator Victim Advocate (SARC VA) for going four years now and those numbers are right on the money.  They are the reason the new Chief of Staff has made it a priority and is trying to change the military culture.

I wore the Army green and Navy blue for 25 years total. Now I work for with the Navy. I've lived through some significant "culture changes". During the early 80's the Whiz Quiz to do away with drugs in the military. After "Tail Hook" they came up with the "RED, YELLOW, GREEN Light" training pointed at reducing sexual assualt Man to Woman. Though the goal of the training was good, the training we were subject to simply made everyone confused & paranoid. Then "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was next. That one was the butt of jokes for years. In most cases there was no need to ask, and it wasn't a big deal. Women on ships was a huge culture change which resulted in a huge spike in pregnant sailors and sexual assualt complaints. It took the Navy years to balance the "manpower budget" after this culture change. 

Now with open gays being allowed to serve in our military the man to man sexual assualts is going to spike up & man to woman will naturally go down, so the next "program" is to combat this self induced issue.

This is the pain of evolution. Strong leadership from our Chiefs and NCOs will right the ship once again.

[Boll Hawg]

Unless you're living under a rock I assume you've seen this: 

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/06/18089279-air-forces-sex-abuse-prevention-honcho-charged-with-sexual-battery?lite

How dumb can that guy be? 

[Old Tusk]

Talked to a friend who is still at the Pentegon. He thinks this is the tip of the iceburg. It is part a huge break down in discipline.

[Albert Einswine]

Talked to a friend who is still at the Pentegon. He thinks this is the tip of the iceburg. It is part a huge break down in discipline.

The only thing I can come up with is the prolonged nature of these conflicts we've been in. More akin to Vietnam than our other wars, not really fighting a nation but different guerrilla groups. A grind with seemingly no clear objective and no sign of it ending on the horizon.  Just the prospect of leaving this place with the sneaking suspicion there will be some other place to go to soon enough.

I was in the Air Force in the mid through late 80's and I never heard of any problems like this, especially assaults of men against men.  But we were fighting the Cold War from the relative comfort of our flight lines.

I suppose a sense of hopelessness could lead to extremes.  Suicide on the one and sexual aggression on the other.

[Old Tusk]

They are also looking at loweted enlistment standards as a contributing factor.

[Flying Razorback]

You also have to remember that reporting is at an all time high.  Especially compared with a decade ago and then even more so than multiple decades ago.  Women weren't as common in the military in the 80s and earlier, and those that were were much less likely to report any assaults or harassment.  Men back then were even more less likely to report anything.

I've heard it at a couple of different bases in different forums that they still don't know what to make of the data yet.  While the media reports it as "assaults are up", they don't report that reporting is at an all time high.

For example, if in the year 2000 there were 18,000 assaults and 2,000 were reported compared to in 2012 if there were 8,000 assaults and 6,000 were reported.  All that is being put in the news is "Sexual assaults are up 300% in a decade!"

I've heard that exact line from victim advocates at separate bases.

[TeufelHog]

Thoughts as to a cause, yes . . . the military moved away from "open squad-bay" living and went to "college style dorms."  WAY TOO MUCH privacy, which equates to WAY TOO LITTLE direct supervision in the living spaces by the backbone of the armed services - our NCOs.  You want to cut suicides and sexual assault in half IMMEDIATELY in the military?  RETURN TO OPEN SQUAD-BAY LIVING WITH CORPORALS AND SERGEANTS PROVIDING THE SUPERVISION.  Remember standing "fire-watch" throughout the night?  It had a much more significant purpose! 

Our senior leadership in the late 90's punted this one in the stands big-time claiming it was vital to our recruiting and retention goals. 

[pigture perfect]

Just for clarification, these are actual physical assaults? Would some of these reported be verbal, as in sexual taunting or slurs?

[Old Tusk]

Thoughts as to a cause, yes . . . the military moved away from "open squad-bay" living and went to "college style dorms."  WAY TOO MUCH privacy, which equates to WAY TOO LITTLE direct supervision in the living spaces by the backbone of the armed services - our NCOs.  You want to cut suicides and sexual assault in half IMMEDIATELY in the military?  RETURN TO OPEN SQUAD-BAY LIVING WITH CORPORALS AND SERGEANTS PROVIDING THE SUPERVISION.  Remember standing "fire-watch" throughout the night?  It had a much more significant purpose! 

Our senior leadership in the late 90's punted this one in the stands big-time claiming it was vital to our recruiting and retention goals. 

NCOs seem to be a huge part of the problem.

[DevilHog1775]

Just for clarification, these are actual physical assaults? Would some of these reported be verbal, as in sexual taunting or slurs?

Yes these are being reported as physical assaults, verbal would be sexual harrassment, unless it was using authority and action was done.

[DevilHog1775]

They are also looking at lowered enlistment standards as a contributing factor.

can you be more specific about what you mean in this post please?

[pigture perfect]

These stats disgusts me. Come on people.

[Old Tusk]

can you be more specific about what you mean in this post please?

The stardards for acceptence have been lowered to meet recruiting goals. For instance, felons are now allowed. Education levels and qualifing test scores have been reduced. It can be argued that the branchs that lowered standards the most are having a greater problem, but of course they are also the ones most stressed. However, some think that reduced standards have damaged the overall character of the force.

[DevilHog1775]

The stardards for acceptence have been lowered to meet recruiting goals. For instance, felons are now allowed. Education levels and qualifing test scores have been reduced. It can be argued that the branchs that lowered standards the most are having a greater problem, but of course they are also the ones most stressed. However, some think that reduced standards have damaged the overall character of the force.

I don't know what branch is allowing felons at this point for accession into the military, I know that my branch is not. Again Education and test scores differs per branch. The standards have went back up over the last 4 years so this argument would be pointed at the SNCO's that came in with "lowered Standards". I can agree with you that all of this has damaged the overall character of the force, but its not because of lower standards within the last few years.

My personal opinion is that training in the past was never where it should have been, just a check in the box for a day of "Safety Stand downs" The new training and case studies that are going on I believe is a lot more informative than 5 years ago. And if that's the case what was the training 5 years before that and so on.

[Brand X Hog Fan]

Talked to a friend who is still at the Pentegon. He thinks this is the tip of the iceburg. It is part a huge break down in discipline.

Discipline (or lack thereof) was going to be the first reason I threw out there. Craig would know better but the respect for authority nowadays seems to be so far removed from what it was even in the early 80's when I was in. Of note, my Dad retired at 26 1/2 years in the Air Force as an E-9, primarily due to him not being able to enforce any sort of discipline among his troops without complaints and grievances being filed. One airman in particular saw no reason that he couldn't have his motorcycle and his girlfriend in the barracks at night. Apparently neither did the squadron commander. True story. Plattsburg AFB, 1973.

[bob slydell]

I feel like way too many of these cases are dealt with by non-judicial punishment.  If the DoD would start criminally prosecuting each and every one of these cases like the civilian justice system does, there may be a chance to send a message that it won't be tolerated.  As of now, the vast majority of cases seem to involve simply taking a stripe or two and recommending separation.  Basically, we are sending them out into society to continue this behavior rather than showing them the inside of a jail cell.  Not to mention not adequately punishing the offenders for the damage that they have caused to fellow service members.  There is no deterrent and no justice for the victims so it will never change until there is.

[hogginbama]

Discipline and the lack there of is a huge issue. Most of it stems from leadership being promoted way to fast. When I joined, if you made E-5 before 10 yrs you were considered a fast tracker. Now days kids are making E-6 in half that time. A 23 y/o still wet behind the ears and a "kid" himself trying to lead and discipline 18/19 y/o is not the ideal mix.

Leaders are also slow to discipline Soldiers for fear of the ever present IG or Congressional complaint. Gone are the days of Soldiers policing up one another and overall professionalism. I made a family member extremely upset when I called her son and put his young E-5 self in check over crap he was posting on social media. Had to remind him and her that as a 1SG it is my duty and obligation to make on the spot corrections of a Soldier out of line. That act is missing though across the military and we are paying the price for it.   

[SteveInArk]

Discipline and the lack there of is a huge issue. Most of it stems from leadership being promoted way to fast. When I joined, if you made E-5 before 10 yrs you were considered a fast tracker. Now days kids are making E-6 in half that time. A 23 y/o still wet behind the ears and a "kid" himself trying to lead and discipline 18/19 y/o is not the ideal mix.
...

Well said.

[titsonboar]

WTH
Can that really be true?

[AF74Razorback]

The only thing I can come up with is the prolonged nature of these conflicts we've been in. More akin to Vietnam than our other wars, not really fighting a nation but different guerrilla groups. A grind with seemingly no clear objective and no sign of it ending on the horizon.  Just the prospect of leaving this place with the sneaking suspicion there will be some other place to go to soon enough.

I was in the Air Force in the mid through late 80's and I never heard of any problems like this, especially assaults of men against men.  But we were fighting the Cold War from the relative comfort of our flight lines.

I suppose a sense of hopelessness could lead to extremes.  Suicide on the one and sexual aggression on the other.

I too am former Air Force and stationed at the Rock from 1974-81.   I heard of incidents occurring during my time and especially in Ramstein.    So yes perhaps this is making a difference but I feel that some would rather see more of this just to hate on what they call the Military Industrial Complex.   The issue with the nukes is more of the same.

[LSUFan]

Why would you want to take it, when so many people are giving it away? The challenge?

Cut off his tool and put it in a jar.

[Old Tusk]

The number of Es and Os being discharged for misconduct is exploring. This is especially so for the Army. Character is important, and when you ignore it for numbers, a terrible price will be paided.

[AF74Razorback]

The number of Es and Os being discharged for misconduct is exploring. This is especially so for the Army. Character is important, and when you ignore it for numbers, a terrible price will be paided.

I am assuming you are an older veteran and so am I.   Coming in at the very end of the Vietnam-era,  I am very suspicious of any kind of crusade against the military.  With that said,  we all have all heard of young ladies complaining about harassment (a captive audience) so it is no wonder that it still goes on today and that one of the leaders who should be there to help is making things worse.   And giving the media a lot of fodder at a time we cannot afford.

[Old Tusk]

This is not a crusade against the military. This is about the military dealing with a serious breakdown in discipline.

[AF74Razorback]

As I said there is more here than just the truth and acting on it.   Go to RallyPoint and see all the veterans who find SHARP training as being overboard and you will get the gist of my meaning here.

[Albert Einswine]

This is not a crusade against the military. This is about the military dealing with a serious breakdown in discipline.

Which always occurs within any military when standards are eased (in our latter day case to recruit volunteers, in times past during conscription) whilst engaged in prolonged conflicts with deployment after deployment. It's an inevitability.

[AF74Razorback]

Which always occurs within any military when standards are eased (in our latter day case to recruit volunteers, in times past during conscription) whilst engaged in prolonged conflicts with deployment after deployment. It's an inevitability.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense regarding the inevitability of apathy.    Have you been stationed at LRAFB?

[Old Tusk]

Discipline is a fiction of leadership. If discipline breaks down, it is the result of leadership incompetence or laziness.

[Tejas_Pete]

The Army focuses on cover your ass training instead of emphasizing accountability and responsibility.

Just look at what it takes to ride a motorcycle or go on pass. 90% of it is just check the block training so that if someone gets killed, their leadership won't get their career ended.

I have almost nine years in and I can't wait to get out this year. As a brand new 2LT fresh out of college I was a PL in Baghdad and the Army trusted me with life and death decisions but as a 32 year old Captain I have to fill out 10 pieces of paper to go on a [CENSORED] weekend pass and have to work late because most of my duty hours are spent in mandatory training or some other bull.

[Tejas_Pete]

I miss back when I was first enlisted (2001)and there was no such thing as TRIPPS and POV inspections and if you wanted to ride your motorcycle without looking like a neon power ranger good for you.

[Albert Einswine]

Yeah that makes a lot of sense regarding the inevitability of apathy.    Have you been stationed at LRAFB?

Negative, I was in SAC, a B-52 crew chief stationed at KI Sawyer in the UP of Michigan.

[Old Tusk]

Negative, I was in SAC, a B-52 crew chief stationed at KI Sawyer in the UP of Michigan.

I was there from 72 - 74 in tankers.

[Albert Einswine]

I was there from 72 - 74 in tankers.

You have my profoundest sympathy, haha!

[Albert Einswine]

I hated everything about Sawyer and the UP except for the fishing. The fishing was good.

[Old Tusk]

I liked snowmobiling, but the flightline sucked most of the year.

[AF74Razorback]

I liked snowmobiling, but the flightline sucked most of the year.

We lived at Eilsen AB when I was a kid and there were plenty of nasty slopes there.   And - 60 degree weather too.

[Albert Einswine]

We lived at Eilsen AB when I was a kid and there were plenty of nasty slopes there.   And - 60 degree weather too.

Did a TDY there in June of '87, it was fantastic! Weather was in the upper 70's to mid 80's and it never got dark. Mosquitoes were bad, though.

[AF74Razorback]

Did a TDY there in June of '87, it was fantastic! Weather was in the upper 70's to mid 80's and it never got dark. Mosquitoes were bad, though.

Yes on the Mosquitos but beautiful place.   One guy in the Air Force told me it didn't get that warm.   I said,  "I've lived there,  you didn't and it is does get to the 70s and 80s".

[Albert Einswine]

Yes on the Mosquitos but beautiful place.   One guy in the Air Force told me it didn't get that warm.   I said,  "I've lived there,  you didn't and it is does get to the 70s and 80s".

We were assigned one of those old blue Air Force vans to get around in because even though we were doing flightline operations on the base they had us billeted in Fairbanks, which was great, and in our spare time we did whatever we wanted. We all bought gold pans and took off headed toward Circle and panned in a public area of Valdez Creek. Came away with a few specks of gold after a hard several hour's work.

[Old Tusk]

The thing I hated about Wilson was walking out of a bar at 4am  to be blinded by the sun.

[Albert Einswine]

The thing I hated about Wilson was walking out of a bar at 4am  to be blinded by the sun.

I was only there for a week, so I thought it was pretty cool.

[AF74Razorback]

We were assigned one of those old blue Air Force vans to get around in because even though we were doing flightline operations on the base they had us billeted in Fairbanks, which was great, and in our spare time we did whatever we wanted. We all bought gold pans and took off headed toward Circle and panned in a public area of Valdez Creek. Came away with a few specks of gold after a hard several hour's work.

Did you see any of those gold dredges?   We even went to the North Pole to see Santa's Helpers.   Problem is that two of us got our fingers caught in the door.   

[YankHog]

The Army focuses on cover your ass training instead of emphasizing accountability and responsibility.

Just look at what it takes to ride a motorcycle or go on pass. 90% of it is just check the block training so that if someone gets killed, their leadership won't get their career ended.

I have almost nine years in and I can't wait to get out this year. As a brand new 2LT fresh out of college I was a PL in Baghdad and the Army trusted me with life and death decisions but as a 32 year old Captain I have to fill out 10 pieces of paper to go on a [CENSORED] weekend pass and have to work late because most of my duty hours are spent in mandatory training or some other bull.

It is getting very tough on leaders to act like leaders in today's military,  long time hogville reader, never post, been in the Army 22+years finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, currently working as an IG.  I came in as an enlisted guy and went through OCS.  I started seeing the subtle changes even when I was a young enlisted guy with the 101st, when you could still sing the old cadences and then folks would get in trouble for the "two old ladies laying in bed" type cadences.  Now often commanders are darned if they do and darned if they don't.  It is very hard to punish poor performers/soldiers/leaders without fear of reprisal.  it is very easy for a soldier to walk down to the IG and claim hostile work environment or toxic leadership and really not that hard to prove.  Even if those allegations are unfounded, in today's military, they are now documented and commander's know who has been investigated and for what.  I see it most when "line" officers get put in charge of combat support soldiers and they just clash and it creates all sorts of issues.  I think with sexual harassment it's several issues, the biggest being the focus placed on sexual harassment these days, the war tempo and stress it's caused over the last 10+ years, career fields opening up to females that are maled dominated and the standards of enlistments that have dropped over the past several years.   just my opinion and what i've seen...

[AF74Razorback]

It is getting very tough on leaders to act like leaders in today's military,  long time hogville reader, never post, been in the Army 22+years finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, currently working as an IG.  I came in as an enlisted guy and went through OCS.  I started seeing the subtle changes even when I was a young enlisted guy with the 101st, when you could still sing the old cadences and then folks would get in trouble for the "two old ladies laying in bed" type cadences.  Now often commanders are darned if they do and darned if they don't.  It is very hard to punish poor performers/soldiers/leaders without fear of reprisal.  it is very easy for a soldier to walk down to the IG and claim hostile work environment or toxic leadership and really not that hard to prove.  Even if those allegations are unfounded, in today's military, they are now documented and commander's know who has been investigated and for what.  I see it most when "line" officers get put in charge of combat support soldiers and they just clash and it creates all sorts of issues.  I think with sexual harassment it's several issues, the biggest being the focus placed on sexual harassment these days, the war tempo and stress it's caused over the last 10+ years, career fields opening up to females that are maled dominated and the standards of enlistments that have dropped over the past several years.   just my opinion and what i've seen...

Well said and on point. 

[SteveInArk]

Yankhog, well thought out post.  Thanks.

[Pork Twain]

Just for clarification, these are actual physical assaults? Would some of these reported be verbal, as in sexual taunting or slurs?

That is the difference between sexual assault and sexual harassment.  Onemust involve contact and the other does not.