I blame Coach Cal

[DocHogliday]

Honestly - a big decision in Monk going to Kentucky was opportunity. 

And Monk trusted literally millions with Cal and his staff.  Ask yourself - how did Monk develop as a player as the season progressed?  Is Monk's draft stock higher now than January?  November?

The coaching staff did Monk no favors.

I would have loved to see Monk wearing Razorback Red, and he made a tough decision.  But now I find myself asking - where is the accountability with his development and future.  That baton was given to Coach Cal and his staff - and they blew it.   

[hogsanity]

I'm still going to say Monk get drafted high and makes a lot of $$$$.

[DocHogliday]

No question.  That's not up for debate.  But big difference in pick 1... pick 14... pick 24.  The opportunity cost is very high. 

[bkjbearcat]

No question.  That's not up for debate.  But big difference in pick 1... pick 14... pick 24.  The opportunity cost is very high.

I look at Archie Goodwin and I see a guy who went to KY for a business decision. Was a one and done, was drafted 29th overall, had two stints in the D-League and is on his third team. I'm sure he's making a lot of money, but he went to KY for that??? He couldn't go to Arkansas to have that career?

Will we say that about Monk in five years, who knows. But, ya. I'm sure he'll be making a lot of money.

[skinnypig]

I hate Cal... but how much can you develop a player in one year

[DocHogliday]

I will end with this. The focus will be on Kentucky.  Their fans disappointment.  Their performance.  And next year.

But what about the players?  Isn't there responsibility to develop players?  As a manager in any position in any company, part of the job is to help your direct reports grow. 

I will be surprised if much is said about the effect at the player level - specifically with respect to player growth and development.

[hogsanity]

No question.  That's not up for debate.  But big difference in pick 1... pick 14... pick 24.  The opportunity cost is very high. 

We do not know where he will be drafted, nor do we know it would have been any different had he been at Arkansas. Would he have developed anymore> Would he have gotten fewer minutes because Mike tends to play more players? How would he have done in this offense? Too many questions to say coming here would have made him a better player, or to say Kent failed him.

[(notOM)Rebel123]

I hate Cal... but how much can you develop a player in one year

Then why go there?

[ErieHog]

Honestly - a big decision in Monk going to Kentucky was opportunity. 

And Monk trusted literally millions with Cal and his staff.  Ask yourself - how did Monk develop as a player as the season progressed?  Is Monk's draft stock higher now than January?  November?

The coaching staff did Monk no favors.

I would have loved to see Monk wearing Razorback Red, and he made a tough decision.  But now I find myself asking - where is the accountability with his development and future.  That baton was given to Coach Cal and his staff - and they blew it.   

Nicely, yes, and yes.

Its fine to be upset with Monk; it doesn't do us any favors to be irrational about the benefit he derived from being associated with the Kentucky basketball factory, though.

[12247]

Monk might have been as good or better after one year if he had come to Arkansas.  However, currently, which team has the credibility for putting 1 and dones in the NBA with lots of cash in their pockets.  Monk made a decision most of us would have made if we were in his shoes.  Monk will likely go pro but he should stay another year.  He can learn a lot in another year.  Of course, he can likely learn that at the next level also. 

[Albert Swinestein]

Then why go there?

I am up here in Green Bay, Wisconsin this week.  People came in from all over the country for this conference.  They were talking about college basketball over lunch today.  Monk's and Fox's names were mentioned during the discussion.  When I mentioned I root for Arkansas, no one seemed to know a thing about them.  Why go there?  You get a tremendous amount of exposure.  Basketball fans from all over the country know your name.  You get to play against the best teams in the country as Kentucky usually schedules against top teams nationally (UCLA, UNC, Kansas, Michigan State, Louisville).  You typically play in front of sold out crowds at home.  You play on national television throughout the year.  You average over 32 minutes per game, which is important for a shooter like Monk and is more than anyone has averaged at Arkansas since the 2009-2010 season.

[FineAsSwine]

What about his Q score and is he about to get that big shoe contract Marcus was taking about? This was mentioned as reasons for going to KY.

[(notOM)Rebel123]

I am up here in Green Bay, Wisconsin this week.  People came in from all over the country for this conference.  They were talking about college basketball over lunch today.  Monk's and Fox's names were mentioned during the discussion.  When I mentioned I root for Arkansas, no one seemed to know a thing about them.  Why go there?  You get a tremendous amount of exposure.  Basketball fans from all over the country know your name.  You get to play against the best teams in the country as Kentucky usually schedules against top teams nationally (UCLA, UNC, Kansas, Michigan State, Louisville).  You typically play in front of sold out crowds at home.  You play on national television throughout the year.  You average over 32 minutes per game, which is important for a shooter like Monk and is more than anyone has averaged at Arkansas since the 2009-2010 season.

I know why he went to U.K. I was responding to the post that Cal couldn't do much to help develop him in a year. My post was poorly worded. It wasn't about being developed. It was all about being in the spotlight.

[BannerMountainMan]

He had like two "great games" all year. And yes Barford or macon could score 47 if they shot it "every time" like monk did in that one game. No doubt about it I would take Barford over Monk in the long run. Anybody can get better at shooting but I haven't seen many defenders like Barford that can also do some amazing things around the basket.

[BoarnSupremacy]

Nicely, yes, and yes.

Its fine to be upset with Monk; it doesn't do us any favors to be irrational about the benefit he derived from being associated with the Kentucky basketball factory, though.

Monk wouldn't have help hogs much at all.  Allen would have.  Monk is way too selfish to fit in with hogs or many other teams IMO.

[ErieHog]

Monk wouldn't have help hogs much at all.  Allen would have.  Monk is way too selfish to fit in with hogs or many other teams IMO.

He'd have been a huge help-- the value of shooting with adequate athleticism is never undervalued.

Yes, Allen might have had a more natural role, but this pretending  'he's not all that' is just ridiculous.

[Karma]

Monk is going to be a top 6 pick at worse, and is one of the 5 highest profile players in college this year.

[rupert]

Monk got to play on a national stage more often than we would have at U of A but hard to believe that if he put up similar numbers here that the NBA scouts would not have noticed or found him?

Archie Goodwin could have been drafted at least that high after a one year stint with the Hogs (IMHO)

[sickboy]

I think it's as much about as exposure as it is development. You know if you're going to Kentucky as a "freshman phenom" you're going to get all they hype in the world. Even if it's not warranted.

Back in the day, TV didn't control the sport, or the world, as much as it does now. ESPN will always gravitate toward the Kentucky stories. And Cal is always going to be what sucks in the viewers. Partially because Cal gets caught cheating and still comes back and wins. People are drawn to those types of characters: characters who break rules and still find success. Look at Donald Trump, Wolf of Wall Street, Kim Kardashian, every mob movie ever made.

As an 18 year old kid -- you know you're going to get a platform at Kentucky.

[BoarnSupremacy]

He'd have been a huge help-- the value of shooting with adequate athleticism is never undervalued.

Yes, Allen might have had a more natural role, but this pretending  'he's not all that' is just ridiculous.

I would rather had allen,

[RaisinHog]

Dude guys like monk could go to freaking Arkansas Tech and be drafted high.. they know about them before college .. example A ) last year's number one draft pic .. on a team.that didn't make the tourny .. example b the number 1 pic this year also willl come from a team.that didn't

[ErieHog]

Dude guys like monk could go to freaking Arkansas Tech and be drafted high.. they know about them before college .. example A ) last year's number one draft pic .. on a team.that didn't make the tourny .. example b the number 1 pic this year also willl come from a team.that didn't

Sure, you can go anywhere.  It doesn't mean you'll develop the relationships that the Kentucky Basketball Factory provides-- World Wide Wes and that entire universe of connections is worth millions of dollars, in the right circumstances-- and no, not just anywhere can provide that.

[Sed76]

Guys like Dickie V act like Calipari is taking 2 star recruits and getting them into the league when in reality he is coaching guys who were always going to make it to the  pros. How many walk on players has he developed so well they could play in the NBA? He gets all the credit for "developing " guys who could have played for UAPB and got drafted.

[Ugly Uncle]

We need to put to rest this "gets more exposure" nonsense.

There are lottery picks routinely from Europe.  2 from Spain in 2015.

I read where normal fans didn't know anything about Arkansas, but did about Kentucky.  I don't know if you realize this, but NBA scouts get paid good money to find real talent.

Kentucky is on t.v. a lot?  Really?  It isn't like the old days where the big boys played in the game of the week.  Now every game is on t.v.  There is ZERO exposure difference for those playing on t.v.  Oh...but they talk about them more on the four letter network more than they do about Arkansas?

Do you really think the NBA scouts are listening to what Mike and Mike have to say about a basketball kid?  It is a multi-million dollar a year business and they will find you.

It is a LIE to say that going to KY gives you any advantage.  That is an outdated way of thinking.  To say that Cal is a good coach is a stretch as well.  He has only won with superior talent and he only gets superior talent by cheating.  That was the case at his last two stops and "probably" the case at KY as well.  He stock piles the best talent in the country yet can't seem to win the big one.  It is a shame that we keep feeding kids this lie that playing for KY is going to help them.

Had Monk come to Arkansas he would have it made for the rest of his life.  Even if he blew out a knee or failed miserably in the NBA he would have been taken care of here.  No, his stupid brother ruined their family name here in Arkansas and he will never be welcomed back.  They weren't thinking long term.  They weren't thinking what was best for the kid.  They were thinking getting paid while still being in college.

Somebody needs to start speaking truth to these kids.

[Ugly Uncle]

Sure, you can go anywhere.  It doesn't mean you'll develop the relationships that the Kentucky Basketball Factory provides-- World Wide Wes and that entire universe of connections is worth millions of dollars, in the right circumstances-- and no, not just anywhere can provide that.

What are the right circumstances?  How has it helped the ho-hum careers of many of the "can't miss" kids that KY has put in to the league?  It is a stretch to find any thing that WW Wes has done to truly HELP a player that needed it.

[ErieHog]

What are the right circumstances?  How has it helped the ho-hum careers of many of the "can't miss" kids that KY has put in to the league?  It is a stretch to find any thing that WW Wes has done to truly HELP a player that needed it.

Not 'Harrison Twinning' it up, by playing your way out of a payday.  Having something resembling a marketable personality.

Yes, they'd  eventually get there on talent--- however, if John Wall goes to Georgetown instead of Kentucky,  he isn't getting that 5 year $12.5 Reebok deal as he leaves Kentucky, and isn't positioning himself as the biggest sneaker free agent out there as he enters his career prime this year.    Boogie's half-psycho butt isn't carrying seven digit endorsement deals, without Kentucky connections.


There are real, slimy benefits to going to Kentucky.    And it doesn't do any good to pretend that its raining when someone is pissing on your foot.

[panhandlepig]

I think it's as much about as exposure as it is development. You know if you're going to Kentucky as a "freshman phenom" you're going to get all they hype in the world. Even if it's not warranted.

Back in the day, TV didn't control the sport, or the world, as much as it does now. ESPN will always gravitate toward the Kentucky stories. And Cal is always going to be what sucks in the viewers. Partially because Cal gets caught cheating and still comes back and wins. People are drawn to those types of characters: characters who break rules and still find success. Look at Donald Trump, Wolf of Wall Street, Kim Kardashian, every mob movie ever made.

As an 18 year old kid -- you know you're going to get a platform at Kentucky.

  And I can see why  an 18  year old kid would buy into that. I don't blame him. It's the culture of the day.

   I wish he could have seen that he could have played for his  state school and still achieved everything  he seeks. 

  I'm just speculating here, but I'm assuming his decision wasn't only about him. He had other people to think about.  And that sucks.

[Corkscrew Johnson]

Nicely, yes, and yes.

Its fine to be upset with Monk; it doesn't do us any favors to be irrational about the benefit he derived from being associated with the Kentucky basketball factory, though.

The idea, in this day and age of development and exposure from such a young age, that a player gets any additional value from playing "with the Kentucky basketball factory" in one year is, from a practical standpoint, silly.  If anything, getting your name diluted by a roster full of blue chips actually hurts your brand.  Doesn't mean Cal isn't selling that notion.  But in reality it's a red herring.

[ErieHog]

The idea, in this day and age of development and exposure from such a young age, that a player gets any additional value from playing "with the Kentucky basketball factory" in one year is, from a practical standpoint, silly.  If anything, getting your name diluted by a roster full of blue chips actually hurts your brand.  Doesn't mean Cal isn't selling that notion.  But in reality it's a red herring.

28 NBA draft picks in the last 8 years-- as many as Duke and North Carolina combined;  about a twelfth of all publicly released endorsements in the entire NBA are with Kentucky players, in dollar value...  but yeah, it has no benefit whatsoever.   Entirely an imagined benefit.

[panhandlepig]

28 NBA draft picks in the last 8 years-- as many as Duke and North Carolina combined;  about a twelfth of all publicly released endorsements in the entire NBA are with Kentucky players, in dollar value...  but yeah, it has no benefit whatsoever.   Entirely an imagined benefit.

  So it's about branding and endorsements?   I still don't blame the kid , but dang . What a world we live in.

[ErieHog]

  So it's about branding and endorsements?   I still don't blame the kid , but dang . What a world we live in.

Oh, absolutely.    Money makes the world go round.

[ShadowHawg]

Sure, you can go anywhere.  It doesn't mean you'll develop the relationships that the Kentucky Basketball Factory provides-- World Wide Wes and that entire universe of connections is worth millions of dollars, in the right circumstances-- and no, not just anywhere can provide that.dw

The NBA teams could give crap one about what school a prospect goes to. Same with advertising deals.

Goodwin went from just outside the lottery to nearly out of the first round while Kanter who wasn't able to play or practice with Kentucky was drafted the highest of anyone at Kentucky that year.

I understand going there so you can play on national television and have a better chance to go deep in the tournament, but as far as it helping NBA draft status, it's worthless.

Endorsements come after players.prove themselves, not after being drafted.

[hawganatic]

There are lottery picks routinely from Europe.  2 from Spain in 2015.

It's not just about draft position.  It's about developing their marketing brand as well as where they get drafted.  How many casual fans can name the number 1 pick from last season?  How many can name the number 1 pick for this year?  Now how many casual fans know who De'Aaron Fox is after the tournament he had?

How much more is Fox going to make in endorsements after the exposure he got in the tournament?

[hawganatic]

  So it's about branding and endorsements?   I still don't blame the kid , but dang . What a world we live in.

So you don't work for the company that you can make the most money at?

[ShadowHawg]

How much more is Fox going to make in endorsements after the exposure he got in the tournament?

Not a dime, just like AD. Guy was invisible until he made a name for himself in the NBA.

[panhandlepig]

Oh, absolutely.    Money makes the world go round.

  Oh, I know.  I'll not follow this kids career, not that my interest matters. I don't wish him any  ill will. I guess I wish the world was different. But, this is basketball in 2017.

[panhandlepig]

So you don't work for the company that you can make the most money at?

   First of all, no company would hire me if I ended my sentence with "at".

[ErieHog]

The NBA teams could give crap one about what school a prospect goes to. Same with advertising deals.

Goodwin went from just outside the lottery to nearly out of the first round while Kanter who wasn't able to play or practice with Kentucky was drafted the highest of anyone at Kentucky that year.

I understand going there so you can play on national television and have a better chance to go deep in the tournament, but as far as it helping NBA draft status, it's worthless.

Endorsements come after players.prove themselves, not after being drafted.

They don't care, but if you don't know the guy who knows the guy, that absolutely matters.

World Wide Wes and his cronies are so deeply dug in at Kentucky, and offer contacts that simply -cannot- be replicated elsewhere.   They make the business of off the court basketball money making happen.

[hawganatic]

Not a dime, just like AD. Guy was invisible until he made a name for himself in the NBA.

Not sure how much basketball you follow if you believe that.  Here's a good story for background.  Ben Simmons got paid for being the number 1 pick.  Other players below him got paid because they were able to make marketable names for themselves.

One line sums up most of the article:  In the Twitter and Instagram era, that's what it takes to become a household brand, a goal for a growing number of athletes who increasingly want to make a business out of playing ball.

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-draft-2016-rookie-players-endorsement-deal-game-begins-long-regular-season-2386040

[ShadowHawg]

In 2015, only. One former Kentucky player was in the top 15 in pay from shoe endorsement deals. Damian Lillard was ahead of John Wall by 5 spots on that list.

That's what playing at Kentucky is really worth.

[hawganatic]

   First of all, no company would hire me if I ended my sentence with "at".

mmmkay, good response bro...

[ShadowHawg]

Not sure how much basketball you follow if you believe that.  Here's a good story for background.  Ben Simmons got paid for being the number 1 pick.  Other players below him got paid because they were able to make marketable names for themselves.

One line sums up most of the article:  In the Twitter and Instagram era, that's what it takes to become a household brand, a goal for a growing number of athletes who increasingly want to make a business out of playing ball.

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-draft-2016-rookie-players-endorsement-deal-game-begins-long-regular-season-2386040

I actually look at numbers and figures instead buying hype. Big are not paid out on the basis of the college you go to, period.

[WBOBO]

The idea, in this day and age of development and exposure from such a young age, that a player gets any additional value from playing "with the Kentucky basketball factory" in one year is, from a practical standpoint, silly.  If anything, getting your name diluted by a roster full of blue chips actually hurts your brand.  Doesn't mean Cal isn't selling that notion.  But in reality it's a red herring.

Not 'Harrison Twinning' it up, by playing your way out of a payday.  Having something resembling a marketable personality.

Yes, they'd  eventually get there on talent--- however, if John Wall goes to Georgetown instead of Kentucky,  he isn't getting that 5 year $12.5 Reebok deal as he leaves Kentucky, and isn't positioning himself as the biggest sneaker free agent out there as he enters his career prime this year.    Boogie's half-psycho butt isn't carrying seven digit endorsement deals, without Kentucky connections.


There are real, slimy benefits to going to Kentucky.    And it doesn't do any good to pretend that its raining when someone is pissing on your foot.

Yeah and I see Archie Goodwin lacing up his new shoe contract.  What is it?  Birkenstocks?  For the beach?

[hawganatic]

In 2015, only. One former Kentucky player was in the top 15 in pay from shoe endorsement deals. Damian Lillard was ahead of John Wall by 5 spots on that list.

That's what playing at Kentucky is really worth.

Playing at Kentucky doesn't guarantee anything.  What it does do is give them the platform they need to step up and make a name for themselves.  Fox took that platform and made the most of the opportunity.  He is going to have a lot more endorsement opps now than if he played on a team that didn't make the tournament, or didn't get much press in the tournament.

Endorsements aren't just about on court play.  They are about setting themselves apart from the other 449 players in the league.  That starts, or at least can for some players, in college.

[hawganatic]

I actually look at numbers and figures instead buying hype. Big are not paid out on the basis of the college you go to, period.

So you are going to completely ignore that entire article and it's point, that being player branding?

[ShadowHawg]

I actually look at numbers and figures instead buying hype. Big are not paid out on the basis of the college you go to, period.

I have seen this article before. Players believe that they are establishing a brand. Problem is that NBA and collegiate fans are different people and companies paying endorsements know this. It's why Damian Lillard makes more money than John Wall.

Please inform us about the school Lillard developed his brand at.

[ErieHog]

In 2015, only. One former Kentucky player was in the top 15 in pay from shoe endorsement deals. Damian Lillard was ahead of John Wall by 5 spots on that list.

That's what playing at Kentucky is really worth.

In 2015, only. One former Kentucky player was in the top 15 in pay from shoe endorsement deals. Damian Lillard was ahead of John Wall by 5 spots on that list.

That's what playing at Kentucky is really worth.

That's to be expected;  shoe endorsements rocket with the second contract-- and the standard is a 5 or 6 year deal, so the first of the Cal-kids are just now rolling out into their prime earning window.

You'll notice the list is covered in 5x + All Stars,  HOFers, and MVPs--  but you'll also note that  Rose is present among Cal-kids, and the apparatus he took advantage of at Memphis has made its way to Kentucky.

In another 5 years, that list will be Anthony Davis/John Wall/Boogie/KAT.      That's how those things work.

What you won't see, is Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins, or Joel Embiid-- and that's in large part from not being a part of that basketball factory run by Creepy Cal.

[ShadowHawg]

Playing at Kentucky doesn't guarantee anything.  What it does do is give them the platform they need to step up and make a name for themselves.  Fox took that platform and made the most of the opportunity.  He is going to have a lot more endorsement opps now than if he played on a team that didn't make the tournament, or didn't get much press in the tournament.

Endorsements aren't just about on court play.  They are about setting themselves apart from the other 449 players in the league.  That starts, or at least can for some players, in college.

Lillard > Wall. That's what collegiate exposure is worth.

Weber State offered more exposure than Kentucky?

Know who else came in at 15 for shoe endorsement money? Joe Johnson

[hawganatic]

I have seen this article before. Players believe that they are establishing a brand. Problem is that NBA and collegiate fans are different people and companies paying endorsements know this. It's why Damian Lillard makes more money than John Wall.

Please inform us about the school Lillard developed his brand at.

Okay, so compare Wall's rookie endorsements to Lillard's. 

[ShadowHawg]

That's to be expected;  shoe endorsements rocket with the second contract-- and the standard is a 5 or 6 year deal, so the first of the Cal-kids are just now rolling out into their prime earning window.

You'll notice the list is covered in 5x + All Stars,  HOFers, and MVPs--  but you'll also note that  Rose is present among Cal-kids, and the apparatus he took advantage of at Memphis has made its way to Kentucky.

In another 5 years, that list will be Anthony Davis/John Wall/Boogie/KAT.      That's how those things work.

What you won't see, is Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins, or Joel Embiid-- and that's in large part from not being a part of that basketball factory run by Creepy Cal.

Did you really just try to claim Rose as a Kentucky guy?

Guys set themselves apart like you just said, with the second contract.

And what determines the size of that contract? The college they went to or their performance in the NBA?