Morris basically laughed at the notion of star gazer

[Deep Shoat]

Gross!! Don't say that my man, it's depressing. If we're not consistently winning 9 to 10 games in the next 5 years I'm done supporting this program. I've got more important things I can be doing with my life than blindly supporting a mediocre program.

You should leave now and beat the rush.

Arkansas IS a 7-8 win program.  Period.  We may have some seasons better than that, but they will be offset by seasons worse than that.  Look at our history, all of it.  Particularly our SEC history.

Learn to appreciate the program we are instead of being pissed off over a pipe dream.

[OneTuskOverTheLine™]

 I won't ever count us out on our recruiting futures. I know that we have a real sales person on the hill now. Right now he's selling change, but once we get this thing rolling it will just get easier and easier.

All of the jokes about Bama signing 3* guys are pretty stupid too considering they ganked one of our 3* targets after we locked in on him.

[stahawg]

It's true, atleast to me, that heart & desire do impact the result of most college football games. Sure, talent, along with great coaching, is the most important factors. But taking guys who have average talent but want and have dreamed of playing for the Hogs, can have great results too.  Actually, it's the desire & heart factor that makes college football so attractive to it's audience.  So, I agree with our new coach that taking guys with heart will be meaningful to the win/loss column.  Combining true and real talent with guys who grew up dreaming of being Razorbacks, will result in an exciting brand and winning ways! Go Hogs!

[d3maybe]

I wonder if in Alabama, seven consecutive years of the top recruiting class and repeatedly playing in the NC Game, fans ever say, "Why does Saban keep signing these highly rated players?  Why doesn't he just sign players who are gamers? I want more 3-star players!"

Its funny you say this about Alabama, but I would be willing to bet Saban and his staff doesn't have a clue what star rating a particular recruiting service has given a kid... I would also be willing to bet that if an assistant coach even mentioned stars or recruiting services that Saban would chop them off at the knees...

[Hopeful Hog]

You should leave now and beat the rush.

Arkansas IS a 7-8 win program.  Period.  We may have some seasons better than that, but they will be offset by seasons worse than that.  Look at our history, all of it.  Particularly our SEC history.

Learn to appreciate the program we are instead of being pissed off over a pipe dream.

I refuse to believe we can't improve. Nothing is set in stone and no one's past can define their future if they don't let it. Simply accepting that we can't pull the big boys so we should just be happy with 3* and "coach em up" is what got us in this mess in the first place. We can and will rise above what are past says that we are.

[redneckfriend]

I liked his attitude about looking at the stars and said we want guys that want to play!

This a joke right? You sign guys who want to play and who CAN play at the level of SEC west talent. That statement sounds, and I'm sorry if you are offended, like the rationalization of a coach who is worried he didn't meet the necessary recruit quality standards to win in the SEC west. It sounds in fact like something Bielema would have said.

[redneckfriend]

Its funny you say this about Alabama, but I would be willing to bet Saban and his staff doesn't have a clue what star rating a particular recruiting service has given a kid... I would also be willing to bet that if an assistant coach even mentioned stars or recruiting services that Saban would chop them off at the knees...

So what you are saying in effect is that Saban and the recruiting services agree on the quality of the recruits Alabama is signing.

[Hopeful Hog]

So what you are saying in effect is that Saban and the recruiting services agree on the quality of the recruits Alabama is signing.

I think what he's saying is he'd like to bury his head in the sand and pretend his fairy tale world is the real one.

[Karma]

Question? How does a kid warrant a 5* rating if not by ability and talent?

Don't blow their mind.

[Iwastherein1969]

Every coach will say that

I like CCM's attitude but read any coaches presser outside of the top 10 in recruiting rankings and you will see a similar statement

Yeah but can he 'throw the "A" ' at Justin Moore concerts ? This is most important.

[Karma]

Probably need to tell him that.

If he needs a fan to tell him that then we've made the worst hire in CFB history.

[redneckfriend]

If he needs a fan to tell him that then we've made the worst hire in CFB history.

Probably meant to be a joke as in "stating the obvious".

[pghawg1]

 Over the years the only 5 star we ever had that was worth a Damn was d-mac. It is what the coaches do with them when they get on campus is the key to any class,wheather they are 2,3,4,or 5 star.   

[hawganatic]

You should leave now and beat the rush.

Arkansas IS a 7-8 win program.  Period.  We may have some seasons better than that, but they will be offset by seasons worse than that.  Look at our history, all of it.  Particularly our SEC history.

Learn to appreciate the program we are instead of being pissed off over a pipe dream.

This is a loser mentality.  There's no stone on the planet where it is written that we can't have a top program. 

This type of mindset is why people fail for no reason.  Just not believing something is possible.

[PigPusher]

Besides there are a whole bunch of circumstances surrounding a players star designation. It is often been said that it takes eleven men to make a team. That can be expanded to include the coaches and the quality they bring to the field. For example, bad team, bad coach and a player might never be able to expose his or her's talent and ability.

[LJHOG]

If y’all think Arkansas will ever consistently recruit at a top third of the SEC level, disappointment is guaranteed. 

Well, without cheating like OM.

So why aren't we ch ............. competing more vigorously for recruits.

[Deep Shoat]

So why aren't we ch ............. competing more vigorously for recruits.

Because that is loser crap.  Who wants to cheer for cheaters?

[Deep Shoat]

This is a loser mentality.  There's no stone on the planet where it is written that we can't have a top program. 

This type of mindset is why people fail for no reason.  Just not believing something is possible.

That's stupid.

Believing won't change it. 

A better coach than we've had in the SEC might change it, for a time.  But in the end, we will regress to what we are.

Uncomfortable truth: We don't have enough black people to be better.

[Flrazrback]

Stars in recruiting show the player in their role as a high school athlete in a particular system. No doubt is a grade, but objective considering the person or service doing the evaluation. There are many errors in star ratings and some really good kids don't even get evaluated. Our coaching staff best be able to look at a prospective recruit and know pretty quickly if the guy can play our brand of football. Get the talented 3 star or unrated guy that has the tangibles, coach him, develop him and win a bunch of games. Winning ballgames will help us rise the recruiting ladder..

[Arkansas Fan]

There are tons of guys that want to play that aren't very good.

Desire does not necessarily make a good athlete.

And stars don't guarantee a good football player...

[Hopeful Hog]

Stars in recruiting show the player in their role as a high school athlete in a particular system. No doubt is a grade, but objective considering the person or service doing the evaluation. There are many errors in star ratings and some really good kids don't even get evaluated. Our coaching staff best be able to look at a prospective recruit and know pretty quickly if the guy can play our brand of football. Get the talented 3 star or unrated guy that has the tangibles, coach him, develop him and win a bunch of games. Winning ballgames will help us rise the recruiting ladder..

Yes. It's a process, but a process to get us to the higher rated guys not to just sift through the trash banking on finding diamonds in the ruff. Please excuse the trash analogy, I don't think the kids we have are trash at all I'm just using imagery to insinuate my point.

[Hopeful Hog]

And stars don't guarantee a good football player...

Not always that's for sure but building a team off stars will get you a lot further than building it on "want to".

[East TN HAWG]

Edit

[Hawgphat]

The new era of Arkansas Razorbacks football has yet to settle in upon square one.  I truly wish that the Gloomy Guses and Doubting Davids would at least allow the newly-directed program to get out of the starting gate and show some measurable indicators as to where the newly-focused, comprehensive offensive and defensive compounded strengths and weaknesses indicators put us in terms of this revamped coaches and player personnel lineup and the visual efficiency parameters which will inevitably show exactly where we are at the outset - - and pretty much how far we may actually be from achieving parody with our blue-blooded competition.

Please, people; - - reserve judgement and give'em a chance.  Please!

[RAZ FAN]

Stars in recruiting show the player in their role as a high school athlete in a particular system. No doubt is a grade, but objective considering the person or service doing the evaluation. There are many errors in star ratings and some really good kids don't even get evaluated. Our coaching staff best be able to look at a prospective recruit and know pretty quickly if the guy can play our brand of football. Get the talented 3 star or unrated guy that has the tangibles, coach him, develop him and win a bunch of games. Winning ballgames will help us rise the recruiting ladder..

Exactly. What I tried to state earlier in post. Yes we would all love to look at a class and say wow. Look at all those 4 and 5 star young men we signed. But coming off a bad season, new coach, we have to rely on our new staff to find what they need. And sometimes in situations like this they have to find and sign some men who are not rated high for some reason. Believe me they are out there. Seen and know first hand on this issue. So stay positive and re evaluate classes 2-3 yrs after signing.

[NotSoFastMyFriend]

The only "service" I take any notice of is Tom Lemming.  In this morning's Gazette, it had his ratings along with the others...

1  ****+
4  ****
1  ***+
10 ***

That's 37.5% of the class rated ***+ or higher, or 31.25% of the class rated **** or higher. All done in 61 days.  Hell, that's pretty good.

Everyone is a 4* to Tom Lemming.

[Hoggish1]

In a certain respect I dont have a dog in this hunt.  But I do want to see the football program return to a level of success at least equal to the best years of the past and beyond.  I like Morris so far.  I think he is taking steps in the right direction given the time he was hired and what he had to work with.  That aside - to your question.

Stars are awarded according to two main factors - measures, and performance against the level of competition.  However there are a lot of intangibles that go into performance at one level that may not and sometimes doesn't translate to performance at other levels.  I personally know of several high school All-Americans, and four and five star ratings in both basketball and football over my years who were complete flops in college.  All the players I am referring to were given full ride scholarship at major universities (including the UofA and Oklahoma to just name two).

You might have all the measurables, and you might have performance when the environment brings out the best in you - you are BMOC and you get all the emotional support that entails.  It bolsters that production at the high school level.  You are the toast of the campus and the town.  But you go to college and everyone you see at the 85 scholarship level are just as big and fast as you are in their relative positions.  Its the first time you have experienced that.  Now rather than just always having a superior talent and physical edge that you have used to dominant, you find out that you have to work your butt off to not get beat.

Believe it or not it tests you heart and will to be the best.  No more resting on your God given laurels and genetics.  You might even find some at your position who are willing to outwork you, and some who have more love of the game than you.  Some with marginally less ability might even out work you and out do you.  At this stage I have seen some 4 and 5 stars quit altogether, but mostly those who dont really succeed stick around but become marginal players who never live up to their potential.

Then on the other hand, some two or three stars that eventually make it a success in college or maybe even make it into the pros, might either develop physically late, or they just never quit working to improve themselves.  Believe it or not heart among near equals physically, makes a difference on the field. 

But I dont think you would be ever wise to think that a fully motivated, properly raised and disciplined five star isnt likely to have more success than a three star.  Most stars in the NFL were stars in grade school.  I will take all the five stars I can get, but not all of them are going to work out.  If I have slots open, I will take some three stars that fill the bill in other ways.  Sometimes they might just impress me, something is different about them, a hunger in their eyes or in the way they play or in how they work.  Bottom line, I am more than happy at this point with Morris work, and the players he recruited.

Great post that I wish more reading this board would try to understand.

It's why coaches like CCM look at things differently than the rating services who just look at production.

The rating services don't know the parents, they don't hang around the kid off the field, they can't look into his heart and they can't measure his attitude.

Coaches try to do those things because not all stars are equal.  I would bet that Saban's success with 5*s is based on the intangibles he measures that recruiting services know nothing about.

[rude1]

the guys not getting the stars will all down play it's importance. If you want to be good then it can be done without the stars, but if you want to be elite and playing in the playoff, then they most certainly do matter, unless someone can step up and show me a program getting into the playoffs that aren't getting a good amount of the stars.

[Hopeful Hog]

the guys not getting the stars will all down play it's importance. If you want to be good then it can be done without the stars, but if you want to be elite and playing in the playoff, then they most certainly do matter, unless someone can step up and show me a program getting into the playoffs that aren't getting a good amount of the stars.

This

[liljo]

LOL! ! ! !

Reading through this thread, y'all, I swear! ! ! 

Some of y'all read like "Arkansas should just disband. Just quit even having a football team."

Bunch of whiners if ever I saw any! "Oh no, man, we are being realistic. Arkansas can never be more than a 7-8 win program. We'll always finish last in recruiting. So-and-so will never come here...." BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Cheer up, girls.

[Vantage 8 dude]

So why aren't we ch ............. competing more vigorously for recruits.

Oh, really. Well let's sit back watch what happens this year, and during the time between now and next signing date(s). Let's take a reading on not only the stars but also the offer sheets. Question for ya': Say you had an option to choose between a 3 star recruit with offers from programs like Alabama, LSU, tOSU, Clemson, UGa and other "big name" programs OR you can offer a kid who was a five star with few, if any, major program offers. Which would you prefer/choose? (And no, a choice can't be a five star kid with offers from all the biggies-we know who we'd all likely choose). The point is that while stars are nice, and do typically indicate great talent and POTENTIAL, they don't always guarantee great results. BTW Alabama and other successful programs over the years have feasted on taking three star type players and coaching/developing them into absolute studs. And while it obviously makes achieving success more challenging, it can be done. It starts with having the right coaching staff.

[Vantage 8 dude]

Everyone is a 4* to Tom Lemming.

Uhh.....hardly.

[Vantage 8 dude]

The new era of Arkansas Razorbacks football has yet to settle in upon square one.  I truly wish that the Gloomy Guses and Doubting Davids would at least allow the newly-directed program to get out of the starting gate and show some measurable indicators as to where the newly-focused, comprehensive offensive and defensive compounded strengths and weaknesses indicators put us in terms of this revamped coaches and player personnel lineup and the visual efficiency parameters which will inevitably show exactly where we are at the outset - - and pretty much how far we may actually be from achieving parody with our blue-blooded competition.

Please, people; - - reserve judgement and give'em a chance.  Please!

You're asking some folks to actually have some faith and patience when it comes to any potential improvement going forward. As we've all seen they are plenty who want to moan and groan that we likely won't improve on last year's pitiful 4-8 record, that we can't/won't improve our level of recruiting (much less quality of coaching, game planning and adjustments) or really anything else. You know all the things that help determine the performance of a team. Yep, all this without a single spring or fall practice, without a complete/thorough evaluation of all the kids who'll be on the team this next season and obviously well before one single play is called during a real game. Amazing the number of Nostradamuses we have on this site. Next thing we know we'll have mega-million lotto winners dominating HV with all their razor sharp insights and clairvoyance.

[Deep Shoat]

The new era of Arkansas Razorbacks football has yet to settle in upon square one.  I truly wish that the Gloomy Guses and Doubting Davids would at least allow the newly-directed program to get out of the starting gate and show some measurable indicators as to where the newly-focused, comprehensive offensive and defensive compounded strengths and weaknesses indicators put us in terms of this revamped coaches and player personnel lineup and the visual efficiency parameters which will inevitably show exactly where we are at the outset - - and pretty much how far we may actually be from achieving parody with our blue-blooded competition.

Please, people; - - reserve judgement and give'em a chance.  Please!

I don't have any doubts that we can be more than we have been for 25 years.  I also have no doubt that we can't be elite all the time, or even as a routine state of being.  We just can't recruit like that.  I doubt if we can even if we start cheating on a large scale.

What we can do is recruit enough better, with the right staff, to take advantage of the upcycles of in-state talent and make hay while the sun shines.  But we need a great system or a great coach, something that sets us apart, to make that happen.  I think there is a good chance we have those pieces in place right now.  A bright, young staff filled with recruiters headed by one of the top offensive minds available with a system that has won big.  Now we just need to improve the recruiting a little.

All that stuff about "you HAVE to" only holds true until someone does it without having a top 5 class.  Michigan State already made the playoffs.  It can be done.

But no matter how much I believe in these guys, no matter what heights they lead us to, we will return to the mean, eventually.  Because that is who and what we are.  Until demographics make a substantial change away from where they are trending, that isn't getting any better, either.

[rude1]

I don't have any doubts that we can be more than we have been for 25 years.  I also have no doubt that we can't be elite all the time, or even as a routine state of being.  We just can't recruit like that.  I doubt if we can even if we start cheating on a large scale.

What we can do is recruit enough better, with the right staff, to take advantage of the upcycles of in-state talent and make hay while the sun shines.  But we need a great system or a great coach, something that sets us apart, to make that happen.  I think there is a good chance we have those pieces in place right now.  A bright, young staff filled with recruiters headed by one of the top offensive minds available with a system that has won big.  Now we just need to improve the recruiting a little.

All that stuff about "you HAVE to" only holds true until someone does it without having a top 5 class.  Michigan State already made the playoffs.  It can be done.

But no matter how much I believe in these guys, no matter what heights they lead us to, we will return to the mean, eventually.  Because that is who and what we are.  Until demographics make a substantial change away from where they are trending, that isn't getting any better, either.

Alabama 38 Mi. State 0.........Yeah you can get there with the right schedule just as Wi. almost sneaked in this year, but boy they sure didn't put up much of a showing once there.

[Vantage 8 dude]

Alabama 38 Mi. State 0.........Yeah you can get there with the right schedule just as Wi. almost sneaked in this year, but boy they sure didn't put up much of a showing once there.

Well if one buys into the notion that the Hogs will never, ever have a top 25 recruiting class then our best hope of effectively committing with other SEC teams is to take the best rated/most talented kids we can get and develop the hell out of 'em.

[rude1]

Well if one buys into the notion that the Hogs will never, ever have a top 25 recruiting class then our best hope of effectively committing with other SEC teams is to take the best rated/most talented kids we can get and develop the hell out of 'em.

Oh I agree. We can build a good program that way, it just won't ever become elite until there is way found to get in and win our share of the recruiting battles for the 4* & 5* prospects. Doing more with less has a definite ceiling to it IMO.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

Well if one buys into the notion that the Hogs will never, ever have a top 25 recruiting class then our best hope of effectively committing with other SEC teams is to take the best rated/most talented kids we can get and develop the hell out of 'em.

Probably so, but it feels like this staff might be able to somewhat improve recruiting.  Couple that with playing higher IQ football like we did under BP, and we might start seeing measureable improvement on the field.

But we HAVE to improve recruiting to break through with any consistency.  This is the first staff that gives me the impression that it can be done.  We'll see.

[12247]

I don't like it but I agree with Rice.  Hope someday we can get above 8th in recruiting in the SEC.  But 8th would be such an improvement. 

I just hope Hogvillers can see how far down this program is at this moment.  On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the worst, we are around 8th or 9th.  I believe we have enough talent on the team to win half our games next season, but only with great coaching.  With our Guys, its mental more than physical. 

I believe we have the ability to reach and mostly stay in the top half of the conference which puts us 3rd or 4th most years in the West.  I believe we can do that but it will not be easy.  Chances are if you are 4th in the SEC west, you are a top 25 team.  I think that is possible.

[Eddie Goodson]

Stars and rankings should never be more than 25% of the consideration for a recruit. The ranking system is biased toward certain schools. Kids will immediately gain stars if Alabama or a few other schools offer. I don't trust most scout or rivals rankings farther than I can throw Tusk.

[Deep Shoat]

Alabama 38 Mi. State 0.........Yeah you can get there with the right schedule just as Wi. almost sneaked in this year, but boy they sure didn't put up much of a showing once there.

Getting there is the first step.  Bama beats a lot of teams that way.

[Con el Cerdos]

Stars and rankings should never be more than 25% of the consideration for a recruit. The ranking system is biased toward certain schools. Kids will immediately gain stars if Alabama or a few other schools offer. I don't trust most scout or rivals rankings farther than I can throw Tusk.

Odd thing is Bama (and Clemson, Ohio State, Fla State) keep winning national championships with those "overated" players.  Those who only get stars because they are recruited by Bama and the other bigs.

I wonder if you really believe that.

Another other thing, forget the emotional ties, if any, to the players on Arkansas' football roster, and tell me you wouldn't trade, without hesitating, rosters with Bama, Clemson, Ohio State, etc., etc.

[Con el Cerdos]

Probably so, but it feels like this staff might be able to somewhat improve recruiting.  Couple that with playing higher IQ football like we did under BP, and we might start seeing measureable improvement on the field.

But we HAVE to improve recruiting to break through with any consistency.  This is the first staff that gives me the impression that it can be done.  We'll see.

It could happen.  But Morris and his staff have to do four things: Get the players out of Arkansas they want; sign a significant number of difference makers out of Texas (not one or two per year); keep a recruiting presence in Louisiana and up the player talent level from that state; and finally they have to get a few difference makers from other states within the SEC footprint.  And it goes without saying, (but I will) they have to sustain it.

Sounds obvious and simple and on paper it is.  But if Morris and his coaches want to actually move Arkansas up into the top half of the conference and challenge, they have no choice but to reinvent recruiting as we've known it for a couple of decades.

[colbs]

the guys not getting the stars will all down play it's importance. If you want to be good then it can be done without the stars, but if you want to be elite and playing in the playoff, then they most certainly do matter, unless someone can step up and show me a program getting into the playoffs that aren't getting a good amount of the stars.

Michigan St, Oregon, and Washington are not among the elite in recruiting.

[rude1]

Michigan St, Oregon, and Washington are not among the elite in recruiting.

As I said, with the right schedule you can sneak in there, Wi. would have pulled it off too if they had gotten by tOSU. We won't ever be privy to have a schedule set up like those teams can. Mi.State lost 38-0 in their only appearance, Oregon lost 59-20 in it's only appearance, and Washington lost 24-7 in it's only appearance.

[Vantage 8 dude]

Odd thing is Bama (and Clemson, Ohio State, Fla State) keep winning national championships with those "overated" players.  Those who only get stars because they are recruited by Bama and the other bigs.

I wonder if you really believe that.

Another other thing, forget the emotional ties, if any, to the players on Arkansas' football roster, and tell me you wouldn't trade, without hesitating, rosters with Bama, Clemson, Ohio State, etc., etc.

One quick question: do you honestly think that most national rating services consider an offer from someone like 'Bama, UGa , Clemson, LSU and such equal to one from a program such as Arkansas Point being that certain programs, fairly or not, will automatically have greater weight assigned to an offer for a particular player. Whether it's fairly earned in every situation, the truth is the bias still exists. And that can't be denied.

[colbs]

As I said, with the right schedule you can sneak in there, Wi. would have pulled it off too if they had gotten by tOSU. We won't ever be privy to have a schedule set up like those teams can. Mi.State lost 38-0 in their only appearance, Oregon lost 59-20 in it's only appearance, and Washington lost 24-7 in it's only appearance.

Oregon made the NC the first year of the playoff.  I agree it's tough and you need some help from your schedule.

[Con el Cerdos]

One quick question: (1) do you honestly think that most national rating services consider an offer from someone like 'Bama, UGa , Clemson, LSU and such equal to one from a program such as Arkansas (2) Point being that certain programs, fairly or not, will automatically have greater weight assigned to an offer for a particular player. Whether it's fairly earned in every situation, the truth is the bias still exists. And that can't be denied.

My thought is that your post is based on total bull darn and doesn't address the point of my post.  Which is, how does Bama and the other Bigs, just keep winning national championships with players that you apparently think are unfairly assigned biased ratings by recruiting services, just because the "Bigs" offered them.

(1) If this were true then you are admitting that Arkansas offers and recruits nothing but "Plan B" type players.  I sure as hell don't believe that.

(2) I would totally deny it, because there is no certifiable facts that I've ever seen or heard of (except maybe on Razorback sports boards) that support your statement of recruiting service bias.  Oh! a lot say it here but it doesn't make it true.

[pigture perfect]

Stars make a difference more when you're reloading. Not so much when you are rebuilding. When rebuilding, you recruit to your weakness. We did that. If we ever get to the point of reloading, I'll be more concerned about stars..

[Hog N Bama]

Its funny you say this about Alabama, but I would be willing to bet Saban and his staff doesn't have a clue what star rating a particular recruiting service has given a kid... I would also be willing to bet that if an assistant coach even mentioned stars or recruiting services that Saban would chop them off at the knees...

Are you broke?