Best Razorback Shooters in the 3Pt Era (1986/87- present)

[Biggus Piggus]

Need to look at 2-point field goal % vs. 3-point. Players who shoot more threes have a lower total FT% because of shot mix. Total field goal % only matters for inside players. It's a useless stat for anybody who shoots from the outside.

[WMHawgfan]

Excuse my ignorance but who were McKeller and Johnson. For the life of me I can't remember these guys.

Also where does Dwight Stewart fall on the list. Seems to me he was automatic from 3.

[eusebius]

Need to look at 2-point field goal % vs. 3-point. Players who shoot more threes have a lower total FT% because of shot mix. Total field goal % only matters for inside players. It's a useless stat for anybody who shoots from the outside.

I will concede that players who take more threes will have a lower overall FG %, but that's why it intrigues me who shoots well, regardless of position from all three categories. In the NBA, the stratospheric shooting percentages for a season of 50 FG, 40 3PT, 90 FT are rarely reached. Those marks are reserved for the guys like Nash, Nowitzki, Bird, Durant. I want to see who can match that in college.

Keith Jennings, PG at East Tennesee St, went 55 FG, 49 3pt, 86 FT. He was 223/452 from three for his career. 

Steve Kerr PG, 55, 57, 82. In his one year with the three pointer he went 114/199

Salim Stoudamire shot 50, 50, 91 as a senior. During that he was 120/238 from 3pt range.   

Steve Alford only had the line one year: went 53, 53, 90. 107/202 from 3pt in '87

It's not the only metric. You can use true shooting as well. But, it is a good metric and it works for guards and perimeter players too.

   

[Biggus Piggus]

If you look at the early days of the 3-pointer rule, players shot a lot fewer threes than they do now.

You can calculate 2-point shooting easily - total FG% numbers are statistical noise.

[eusebius]

Excuse my ignorance but who were McKeller and Johnson. For the life of me I can't remember these guys.

Also where does Dwight Stewart fall on the list. Seems to me he was automatic from 3.

Phillip McKellar. Played one full season here 86-87 and then during his sophomore season transfered to ASU. His shooting numbers at ASU significantly declined from his freshman year here.

Joe Johnson. All around bad-ass. Plays for the Nets now.

Big Dwight hit some crucial shots and was able to stretch the defense with his passing and shooting, but his career numbers are 45.2 FG, 37.5 3pt and only 61.1 FT.

And that goes to Biggus' pt above about using certain formulas to rate shooters. As a big man, Stewart brings his overall shooting % down by taking more threes. He took 112 his last year here.

If you take Mayberry's 2 pt % only, he shot 53.4 on 2pts and one year shot better than 57% from 2pt range.

 

   

[eusebius]

If you look at the early days of the 3-pointer rule, players shot a lot fewer threes than they do now.

You can calculate 2-point shooting easily - total FG% numbers are statistical noise.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one

[eusebius]

So, Biggus, who would you say is the best Hog shooter in this 3pt era? And why?

[WMHawgfan]

Phillip McKellar. Played one full season here 86-87 and then during his sophomore season transfered to ASU. His shooting numbers at ASU significantly declined from his freshman year here.

Joe Johnson. All around bad-ass. Plays for the Nets now.

Big Dwight hit some crucial shots and was able to stretch the defense with his passing and shooting, but his career numbers are 45.2 FG, 37.5 3pt and only 61.1 FT.

And that goes to Biggus' pt above about using certain formulas to rate shooters. As a big man, Stewart brings his overall shooting % down by taking more threes. He took 112 his last year here.

If you take Mayberry's 2 pt % only, he shot 53.4 on 2pts and one year shot better than 57% from 2pt range.

 

   

lol jeez how could I forget Joe Johnson. getting old sucks!

[dhornjr1]

Delph, Moncrief, and Brewer were all really high percentage shooters. Sidney is over 60 % for his career which is just unheard of for perimeter players. The three point shot has both helped and hurt the game. That's one of the reasons that guys like Mayberry, Day, Thurman, and Huery would be shoot high percentages in both eras. They had the in-between game, having not had the three point line all the way through their formative bb years. Day and Mayberry were in high school when it came in, and Huery was a freshman at Ark when college went to the 3 pt line (the ACC had been experimenting with it before full implementation). I'm a little bit younger than those guys, but I know that when the line first came in our coaches were skeptical and didn't really want us shooting threes. Bradley, Pargo, Clarke played when the line had been in existence almost a decade, and by then coaches mentality toward the line had changed considerably. 

The players that I find scoring best in my shooting matrices are guys who played in the late 80's and early 90's. Christian Laettner has the best career numbers for shooting I've come across. Better than the Price brothers, FG % is even better than Larry Bird in college.

Laettner: 57.4 FG %, 48.5 3pt% 80.6 FT %, 16.6 ppg.  His average score would be 2.5, which would be better than any Hog. 

Laettner was unquestionably one of the best college basketball players of all time. Maybe *the* best of all time. Just look at his stat line versus Kentucky in 1992. 10-10 from the field, including one three, and 10-10 from the free throw line.

[60 Minutes of Hell]

I agree with many of you -- Al Dillard.  He was the most fun to watch, it was basically a spectacle.

Do any of you remember about 6 or 7 years ago when Stephen Hill acted like he was going to put up a shot from beyond the arc (in BWA) and nearly the entire crowd shouted "NOOOOO!!!"?  One of the funnier moments I can remember in that building.

[eusebius]

Laettner was unquestionably one of the best college basketball players of all time. Maybe *the* best of all time. Just look at his stat line versus Kentucky in 1992. 10-10 from the field, including one three, and 10-10 from the free throw line.

Laettner is arguably the best cbb player of the last 25 years. His accomplishments are hard to match. I think Larry Johnson could be more dominant, but I have no issue with Laettner, especially in big games. As far as all time: Lew Alcindor, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Walton, Elvin Hayes, Pete Maravich, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and David Thompson would be ahead of Laettner.

[thirrdegreetusker]

Certainly when it comes to way way way downtown shooting and one game exploits like what he did vs Delaware St., Dillard is one of the best we have seen.  But statistically there are a few knocks on Dillard. He's not quite 40 percent from the field (39.5) and the lowest guy on my list is Bradley at 40.8. His 3 pt % is 40.1, which would be just above Bradley at 7th on the list and his ppg are just above McKellar at 7.8. He does score well on FT's at 83.1 which is fifth behind Bradley. If I figured him in, I think he would rank somewhere around Beverly or Rimac on the chart but no higher than 7th. But

Al's overall FG% suffered because he was not in there to shoot 2s. We had plenty of guys to do that.

His role was this: If the other team is hurting us with "zone; he goes in. Bombs away.

In the NCAAT, against Lute Olson's Arizona team, they were stifling us with zone. Al went in, first trip down, gets within ten feet of the perimeter defenders.....swish. Next time down court, he pulled up 15+ feet from the nearest defender, WAY out, right in front of Olson and the AZ bench, jacks it up, TV announcer says simply "Oh, my..." and .......swish.

Olson stood up, called time, no more zone.

[kp72204]

Just some historical perspective. There are a many Hogs fans that like these discussions.

I'm one of them.

[thirrdegreetusker]

Marvin Delph was a career .529 fg shooter. Most of his shots were from what now would be 3 point range. I've seen em all from 1967-now. He was the best pure shooter in Arkansas history.

Gotta agree.....


Just before Marvin's era, however, we had another great shooter of note.


Ricky Medlock
Great outside shooter, shot .904 FT% for his UA career. Led NCAA in FT% in '74 with .916.

Shot .936 the next year, but did not have enough attempts to qualify. No one would foul him. Missed 19 Fts in his three-year varsity career, out of 197.

[thirrdegreetusker]

Gotta agree.....


Just before Marvin's era, however, we had another great shooter of note.


Ricky Medlock
Great outside shooter, shot .904 FT% for his UA career. Led NCAA in FT% in '74 with .916.

Shot .936 the next year, but did not have enough attempts to qualify. No one would foul him. Missed 19 Fts in his three-year varsity career, out of 197.

Little-known fact:
Medlock holds the Barnhill Fieldhouse scoring record with 56 points in a freshman game. When he arrived on campus, freshmen were ineligible for varsity, and played their own separate schedule.

[WoodyHog]

Lots of fun.  Thanks for putting this together.

My only addition is that looking at a pure shooter based upon FG% can be misleading.  Fact is, different guys are asked to take different types of shots, both 3's and 2's.  Guys like Mike Miller may shoot a high 3%, but they are typically of the catch and shoot variety and taken in limited minutes (he is always fresh).  On the other hand, Steph Curry plays extensive minutes, handles the ball, creates his own shots, and still shoots over 40% from the 3-point line.  For 2 point shots, you have spot up guys, post up guys, slashers, clean-up guys, etc.  All have varied difficulties which will effect your ultimate percentage, but won't ultimately indicate how good of a pure shooter you are.

Based on the eye test, I'll roll with Al Dillard from the 3 point line.  He didn't have the highest 3 point percentage, but that was largely because he took long-range three's and the other team knew that is what he wanted to do, so they were usually contested.  I've never seen a better pure shooter -- in pre-game warm-ups he would move the bench chairs out of the way and drain 3s like he was shooting layups.

[eusebius]

Lots of fun.  Thanks for putting this together.

My only addition is that looking at a pure shooter based upon FG% can be misleading.  Fact is, different guys are asked to take different types of shots, both 3's and 2's.  Guys like Mike Miller may shoot a high 3%, but they are typically of the catch and shoot variety and taken in limited minutes (he is always fresh).  On the other hand, Steph Curry plays extensive minutes, handles the ball, creates his own shots, and still shoots over 40% from the 3-point line.  For 2 point shots, you have spot up guys, post up guys, slashers, clean-up guys, etc.  All have varied difficulties which will effect your ultimate percentage, but won't ultimately indicate how good of a pure shooter you are.

Based on the eye test, I'll roll with Al Dillard from the 3 point line.  He didn't have the highest 3 point percentage, but that was largely because he took long-range three's and the other team knew that is what he wanted to do, so they were usually contested.  I've never seen a better pure shooter -- in pre-game warm-ups he would move the bench chairs out of the way and drain 3s like he was shooting layups.

Thanks, always fun to discuss these things. The 3pt line created the 3 pt specialist and a guy like Dillard is a perfect example. You wonder what kind of player he would have been had he been the focus of the offense and taken 15-18 shots a game and played 30-35 minutes.

Stats are funny things because they don't tell the whole story, but they do provide numerical data to be interpreted and judged. When you figure in all the variables of raw stats, minutes in a game, style of offense, your role on the team, the other players around you, kinds of shots you take, etc, etc, you get a more complete picture. Sports Reference Pro Basketball does the advanced metrics, but they don't do that for college bb so you have to go in and figure out what Dillard's numbers would look like per 30 or 35 minutes. And cbb ref doesn't even have Dillard listed in their player archives so you have to go to HogStats to get that info.

I also think that what is evident in the responses is that the lens that a person views basketball determines how they evaluate what it means to be a good shooter. After studying hundreds of NBA and college shooters what I found is that no matter the metric, grid, formula, that is used, the cream of the crop will score well. And, no matter what era you put them in, with or without three point lines, with or without zone defenses, with or without hand checking, a good shooter will score well in those metrics.

[MemphisBossHog]

McDaniel:
43.5% FG, 35.2 % 3pt, 73 % at the line, 8ppg. Percentage wise he is comparable to Beverly. Clint's main contribution was lock down defense. Over 100 steals in 94-95 season.

I do remember his defense.  Going back and watching several of Nolan's teams from the 1990 Final Four team to the 94 champs to the 95 runners up--those teams were elite.  The shear talent you saw on those teams is just above what we have now.  Mike is working on it. I am so proud of Mike and how he is building, but Nolan had some studs.  (may not have been studly enough to handle Larry Johnson and the Runnin Rebs, but then again who was?) 

I watch some of those games where they just destroyed teams.  Took their will from them as they stifled them with the "scramble" defense. 

Some Nolan detractors have characterized his style and playground and the like.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  His defense and especially his press was amazing.  The Hog players had to rotate properly and read what the offense was doing and be at the right place at the right time.  It was a thing of beauty.

Sorry, I just get caught up thinking about what Nolan built and how sad it was the way it ended.  Its fun to think about these names from the past and remember how they contributed.

[dhornjr1]

Laettner is arguably the best cbb player of the last 25 years. His accomplishments are hard to match. I think Larry Johnson could be more dominant, but I have no issue with Laettner, especially in big games. As far as all time: Lew Alcindor, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Walton, Elvin Hayes, Pete Maravich, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and David Thompson would be ahead of Laettner.

I won't argue about any of those players, but like you said, Laettner showed up in the big games. If we had to choose players for a one game, winner-take-all contest and I had him, I wouldn't be mad at all.

[eusebius]

I won't argue about any of those players, but like you said, Laettner showed up in the big games. If we had to choose players for a one game, winner-take-all contest and I had him, I wouldn't be mad at all.

Laettner is the only guy to start in four consecutive final fours, playing 23 out of a possible 24 NCAA tourney games in his career. Because he's from Duke a lot of people just despise him and don't evaluate his career fairly, but the guy was a player.   

[dhornjr1]

Laettner is the only guy to start in four consecutive final fours, playing 23 out of a possible 24 NCAA tourney games in his career. Because he's from Duke a lot of people just despise him and don't evaluate his career fairly, but the guy was a player.   

Oh, don't get me wrong, I despise him and Duke. But I acknowledge greatness. I hated Larry Bird for years after 1979, but I acknowledged just how awesome he was.

[eusebius]

My first encounter with Thurman was the summer before his Senior year of HS. I went to watch Kerry Kittles (Villanova, NETS), play in Jonesboro at the 17 and under AAU tourney. It was in the elimination rounds and the team from Louisiana was playing and in the first quarter some guy just came out and stole the show. He hit three after three and was just on fire and people in the building kept asking "who is that guy?" That guy was Thurman.

In that same building I watched Tony Delk (UK, various NBA teams) put on a clinic vs the Wings. The Wings coudn't stop him. Everybody in the building knew he was getting the ball. And he would just dribble up, size up his man and score.

Back in the late 80's early 90's, the best high school talent would come to Jonesboro for the 17 and under tourney. They were all there over those years: Grant Hill, Chris Webber, Anfernee Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, all the Hog Stars (Williamson, Beck, Stewart, Thurman). Damon Bailey (the player from the book about Bob Knight, Season on the Brink) was there. Donald Williams (93 final four MVP from NC). And all the elite college coaches were there watching the games. It was a great time and a great era.   

[Smithian]

Would have liked to see Clarke's numbers if he had any help. Hogs would run him around 20 screens but it doesn't help when the entire defense knew if they stopped him they stopped the Hogs. Tough to say he isn't the best when his numbers are slightly below Pargo and Thurman and he played with lesser talent and a slightly longer 3 point line.

Thurman was obviously the better player, but have to go with Clarke as the best shooter.

[eusebius]

Would have liked to see Clarke's numbers if he had any help. Hogs would run him around 20 screens but it doesn't help when the entire defense knew if they stopped him they stopped the Hogs. Tough to say he isn't the best when his numbers are slightly below Pargo and Thurman and he played with lesser talent and a slightly longer 3 point line.

Thurman was obviously the better player, but have to go with Clarke as the best shooter.

I certianly can respect that argument. If you also look at what Rotnei is doing right now in the international pro leagues, it's quite impressive. As was pointed out by a couple of posters, your shooting numbers are affected by several variables. Thurman, Dillard, Rimac were all on the same team and they had inside players like Williamson that forced teams to sag off. Day and Mayberry had Miller, Huery, and guys like Lenzie Howell, Mario Credit and Butch Morris who were very skilled offensively. Those May-Day teams and the Williamson/Thurman teams all shot high percentages. 

With Dillard and Thurman, a longer line wouldn't have made much difference. Maybe so with some of the other shooters.   

[eusebius]

I will also say this about shooting. Sometimes a little deeper three is an easier shot. Unless you can rise up over a defender like Ray Allen, being back a few steps gives us shorter guys a cleaner look. When the line was 19-9, instead of practicing right on the line I would practice a step back. The defender assumes that you won't take that shot, because it's not up on the line. But actually it was right where I wanted to be. I was open in my mind. That's the philosophy my brother used and he is our school's all time leading three point shooter and he's only 5'7.   

[dhornjr1]

Did Nolan recruit Kerry Kitties?  I can't remember.

[eusebius]

Did Nolan recruit Kerry Kitties?  I can't remember.

I would have to go back and look and see what Kittles final choices were and why he went to Nova. He was in the 92 class and we got Williamson and Thurman and one of the other top guys, Othella Harrington had us and G'town and Miss St. as his last picks and he went to G'town.   

[Polecat]

Here's the Whitby game vs ASU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJqqygXmfXI

Mario Credit was a fun one to watch. That's right about the time as a kid when I started watching the Hogs religiously. Thanks for the memory

[Polecat]

Also: Nolan was hitting the gym back in the day. Dude had some guns

[eusebius]

Al Dillard has been brought up a lot so I went back and looked at a 12 game stretch of his games during the 94-95 seasons. I compared Al and Scotty in those games. Scotty obviously had more minutes and attempts but this stretch shows the difference in Al and Scotty as far as shooters.

                     Scotty                          Al
OM          5/11    2/4                0/5  0/2   
@ALA      4/13    2/7                0/3   0/2 
LSU         5/13   3/8                1/7   1/5 
@AUB      12/18  4/6                1/5   1/5           
@MSU      3/11   2/5                1/7    1/6
SC            5/10   2/5                1/1    1/1
@TN         3/10   1/3                 3/6    3/5
VAN          4/11   2/3                 5/9    3/6
Mont         8/13   5/6                 5/10   5/9
@KEN          9/17   3/5                  0/2    0/1
FLA           8/18   4/10                0/2    0/1
ALA           4/10   3/7                 5/11   4/8

In those first five games Al is 3/20 from 3 pt range (15%). Scotty is 13/30 (43.3 %)
In that middle stretch of four games, Al is 12/21 (57.1%) Scotty is 10/17 (58.8%)
In those last 3, Al is 4/10 (40%) and Scotty is 10/22 (45.4%)

During that 12 game stretch Al is 19/51 (37.2%)
Scotty is 33/69   47. 8 

For his career Thurman is 43.2 and Dillard is 40.1. That stretch of 12 games typifies who Thurman and Dillard were as shooters. Al was streaky and would have stretches of 3/20 and then come back and hit 12/21. Scotty rarely had those lulls. If Al was off, his minutes were reduced. When Al was on, he played more minutes. Al averaged 12.5 mins per game. During our tourney run in '95, Al was 8/26 on threes (30.7%). He had a clutch game vs Memphis in the Sweet 16 where he hit 4/8 3's and scored 19 pts but went 2/9 leading up to it and then went 2/9 the rest of the way after Memphis.       

[dhornjr1]

I would have to go back and look and see what Kittles final choices were and why he went to Nova. He was in the 92 class and we got Williamson and Thurman and one of the other top guys, Othella Harrington had us and G'town and Miss St. as his last picks and he went to G'town.   

I remember Corliss saying he almost went to Georgetown to play with Harrington. Nolan had to do a hard sell on him.

[eusebius]

I remember Corliss saying he almost went to Georgetown to play with Harrington. Nolan had to do a hard sell on him.

Arkansas was doing so well following the MayDay era that we had our pick of the top recruits. We were so deep and talented that we could lose guys to injuries like Roger Crawford and Craig Tyson, which is another story, and still win the NC. The role players on those outstanding teams would be All SEC players now: Crawford, Darrell Hawkins, among others.