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At one point, we had the staff to compete for a NC...

Started by twistitup, January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm

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twistitup

January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 04:05:54 pm by twistitup
I've said it many times before - CBB let the best staff in the SEC get away and couldn't replace them. If...I said IF he would have retained his first staff and was able to get the most out of them - could we be at the top of the SEC now?




How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

The_Iceman

2015 was the year we had the talent and coaching staff to make a run. Bielema's lack of leadership let a team that could have gone 10-2 or 11-1.

 

DLUXHOG

Do you mean in 1978 when we had Lou Holtz and Pete Carrol?
"Don't go in anyplace you'd be ashamed to die in..."
(you might get this someday)

hoglady

The staff can't do it without a high caliber head coach - Bielema isn't a good enough head coach.
His Wisconsin success wouldn't have happened without Alvarez controlling things behind the scenes.
That became obvious early on in Bielema's time here.
He underperformed every single year.
Inside every "older" person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened?

"Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

83grad

1978

Head Coach -   Lou Holtz
Defensive Coordinator -   Monte Kiffin
Graduate Assistant -   Pete Carroll
Defensive Backs Coach -   John Jenkins
Graduate Assistant -   Dick Bumpas
Assistant Offensive Line Coach -   Pat Ruel
Defensive Line Coach -   John Mitchell
Offensive Line Coach -   Larry Beightol

83grad

1964

HC - Frank Broyles
AC - Johnny Majors
AC - Barry Switzer
AC - Bill Pace (went on to be the HC and AD at Vandy)
AC - Jim McKenzie (went on to be the HC at Oklahoma for one year before dying of a heart attack after the season)

redeye

I think you're onto something twistitup, but it sounds like CBB and Chaney would never have worked out.

Pittman left after the 2015 season, when things seemed to be going well.  At the time, recruiting seemed to be taking off and I thought it might reach unprecedented levels for us.  We still signed a good class that year, but we failed to close on many of our top targets.

After Pittman left, it was almost like CBB just gave up.  But I still think we were close to breaking through before all that transpired.  If Pittman and Chaney hadn't left, the last 2 years might have been very different.

Tusks


Nothing would have ever worked out with BB.

The biggest waist of coaching space at AR in modern history.
sometimes it's a good and some times it's a schit

Tyro3

Quote from: tusked on January 09, 2018, 04:39:43 pm
Nothing would have ever worked out with BB.

The biggest WAIST of coaching space at AR in modern history.

I am assuming that was intentional.

Vantage 8 dude

Quote from: tusked on January 09, 2018, 04:39:43 pm
Nothing would have ever worked out with BB.

The biggest waist of coaching space at AR in modern history.
I most certainly see what you did there ;) 8) :P :)

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: twistitup on January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
I've said it many times before - CBB let the best staff in the SEC get away and couldn't replace them. If...I said IF he would have retained his first staff and was able to get the most out of them - could we be at the top of the SEC now?

I didn't read the thread after the OP, and probably should have, but I think he lost that staff for the same reason that he lost the team. He's not a true leader. He had no plan and folks could tell it and ran like rats from a sinking ship. CCM is the anti B.
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

Bebop

Quote from: hoglady on January 09, 2018, 04:20:10 pm
The staff can't do it without a high caliber head coach - Bielema isn't a good enough head coach.
His Wisconsin success wouldn't have happened without Alvarez controlling things behind the scenes.
That became obvious early on in Bielema's time here.
He underperformed every single year.

This needs to be on nailed to a wall for all to see.

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: Bebop on January 09, 2018, 05:50:04 pm
This needs to be on nailed to a wall for all to see.

It was for the past two years...
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

 

HogBreath

Quote from: twistitup on January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
I've said it many times before - CBB let the best staff in the SEC get away and couldn't replace them. If...I said IF he would have retained his first staff and was able to get the most out of them - could we be at the top of the SEC now?





With Bert for a head coach ??  AYSM ??   ;D
I said...LSU has often been an overrated team.

That ignoramus Draconian Sanctions said..if we're overrated, why are we ranked higher than you are?

12247

BB couldn't take BAMA's players and assistants and win the SEC west or our assistants and players and win much of anything.  Look at what usually happened when push came to shove during a game.  Either no decision or the wrong decision.

Our second team players were never prepared.  No ready backup QB for all 5 years.  No Special Teams over the 5 years.  Bret never really knew who should be starting or playing more or not seeing the field at all.  We kept surprising ourselves when once forced to install someone who we basically understood couldn't play well, someone like Morgan, he finally got forced onto the field and did well.  We were not mentally conditioned.  We were not physically conditioned.  Bret would run the ball into a solid steel wall time after time trying to get 3rd and short when it hadn't worked even once throughout the game.  JUST WHAT CAN ANYONE SEE THAT WOULD MAKE A SANE BRAIN BELIEVE HE COULD EVER PUT IT ALL TOGETHER WITH ANY COACHING STAFF.  I CANNOT SEE ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM THAT WOULD LEAD ME TO BELIEVE WE WERE EVER GOING TO BE ANYTHING OVER AN 8 WIN TEAM AND THAT WOULD BE WITH THE BEST ASSISTANT STAFF WE'VE MAYBE HAD HERE IN YEARS, WHICH WAS NOT GOING TO STAY, AND PUT UP WITH THE HORSE HOCKEY.  This program was dead, stone cold dead.  Actually is still on life support with some possibilities of survival.

I offered when Bret was first hired, he was an 8 win coach in the SEC with his scheme, coupled with Arkansas' shortcomings. Shorter definition:  You cannot out BAMA, BAMA.

Signing off, I want to admit how wrong I was about Bret.  He was absolutely not an 8 win SEC coach.  He wasn't even a 6 win SEC coach.  I waaaaay over estimated his abilities.

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: 12247 on January 09, 2018, 07:35:41 pm
BB couldn't take BAMA's players and assistants and win the SEC west or our assistants and players and win much of anything.  Look at what usually happened when push came to shove during a game.  Either no decision or the wrong decision.

Our second team players were never prepared.  No ready backup QB for all 5 years. No Special Teams over the 5 years.  Bret never really knew who should be starting or playing more or not seeing the field at all.  We kept surprising ourselves when once forced to install someone who we basically understood couldn't play well, someone like Morgan, he finally got forced onto the field and did well.  We were not mentally conditioned.  We were not physically conditioned.  Bret would run the ball into a solid steel wall time after time trying to get 3rd and short when it hadn't worked even once throughout the game.  JUST WHAT CAN ANYONE SEE THAT WOULD MAKE A SANE BRAIN BELIEVE HE COULD EVER PUT IT ALL TOGETHER WITH ANY COACHING STAFF.  I CANNOT SEE ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM THAT WOULD LEAD ME TO BELIEVE WE WERE EVER GOING TO BE ANYTHING OVER AN 8 WIN TEAM AND THAT WOULD BE WITH THE BEST ASSISTANT STAFF WE'VE MAYBE HAD HERE IN YEARS, WHICH WAS NOT GOING TO STAY, AND PUT UP WITH THE HORSE HOCKEY.  This program was dead, stone cold dead.  Actually is still on life support with some possibilities of survival.

I offered when Bret was first hired, he was an 8 win coach in the SEC with his scheme, coupled with Arkansas' shortcomings. Shorter definition:  You cannot out BAMA, BAMA.

Signing off, I want to admit how wrong I was about Bret.  He was absolutely not an 8 win SEC coach.  He wasn't even a 6 win SEC coach.  I waaaaay over estimated his abilities.

There really is no need in making darn up... The guy was bad enough, but we've been blessed with excellent QB's for a while...
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

BoynamedWooPigSooie

Quote from: OneTuskOverTheLine™ on January 09, 2018, 07:41:59 pm
but we've been blessed with excellent QB's for a while...

This is fallacy.

Bielema ran both Allen brothers out there shot up full of meds b/c he didn't have a capable #2 QB.  Derby and Storey were both disastrous when they got snaps.  Kelley worsened as the season progressed and his confidence was dissolving each passing week.

QB play under Bielema has been far, far from excellent. Brandon had a pretty good Sr. year and Austin had 1/2 a good Jr. Year.
Hogville's resident uniform designer.

Pork Twain

Quote from: BoynamedWooPigSooie on January 10, 2018, 01:22:43 am
This is fallacy.

Bielema ran both Allen brothers out there shot up full of meds b/c he didn't have a capable #2 QB.  Derby and Storey were both disastrous when they got snaps.  Kelley worsened as the season progressed and his confidence was dissolving each passing week.

QB play under Bielema has been far, far from excellent. Brandon had a pretty good Sr. year and Austin had 1/2 a good Jr. Year.
That is a fallacy. 

We have had solid qbs since Casey Dick graduated.  We have not always had coaches that were able to develop them
"It is better to be an optimist and proven wrong, than a pessimist and proven right." ~Pork Twain

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetmemes/

hoghearted

His failure to change QB's when the starter was clearly injured indicated his inability, or unwillingness, to have the backup ready. He only relented when he knew his butt was on the line, and he ran Kelly on the field.
It really is this simple. Unchecked government power leads to corruption, and lack of accountability for it is drastically eroding confidence in our institutions.    aristotle

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: DLUXHOG on January 09, 2018, 04:14:15 pm
Do you mean in 1978 when we had Lou Holtz and Pete Carrol?

Because those GA's are so important to being a great catching staff huh. Don't get me wrong that was a good staff but not because of Carrol.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

hoglady

Quote from: hoghearted on January 10, 2018, 06:35:55 am
His failure to change QB's when the starter was clearly injured indicated his inability, or unwillingness, to have the backup ready. He only relented when he knew his butt was on the line, and he ran Kelly on the field.

Yes - for all of Bielema's big talk about player safety - he certainly played Austin and Brandon (especially) when they were clearly injured and had no business on the field.
Inside every "older" person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened?

"Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

GuvHog

Quote from: BoynamedWooPigSooie on January 10, 2018, 01:22:43 am

Bielema ran both Allen brothers out there shot up full of meds b/c he didn't have a capable #2 QB.  Derby and Storey were both disastrous when they got snaps.  Kelley worsened as the season progressed and his confidence was dissolving each passing week.

QB play under Bielema has been far, far from excellent. Brandon had a pretty good Sr. year and Austin had 1/2 a good Jr. Year.

You're wrong about Kelley. The offense was actually better with him at QB.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

Dwight_K_Shrute

People out here talking about how bad QB A, B, C looked.  Starts and ends with O-Line.  Hard to play at your peak level when you are literally fearing for your life with every snap.  The Iceberg Kurt Anderson sunk the SS Bielema. 
Little known fact, but prior to settling on Guantanamo, the Pentagon wanted to house terror suspects at War Memorial Stadium.  It was deemed to be cruel and unusual punishment and in violation of the Geneva Convention.

theFlyingHog

"At one point, we had the staff to compete for a NC....." but Clint Stoernover got them butter fingers

 

ShadowTheHedgehog

Quote from: twistitup on January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
I've said it many times before - CBB let the best staff in the SEC get away and couldn't replace them. If...I said IF he would have retained his first staff and was able to get the most out of them - could we be at the top of the SEC now?

Didn't you hear the CG post-game interview? It all went downhill when some guy started complaining over and over about the stadium concessions.

That led to assistants leaving, recruits picking other schools, inexplicable losses, and in the end CBB and Long getting fired, and it all started with this guys and his obsession with game-day food. Kind of a butterfly effect. Crazy.

twistitup

Quote from: ShadowTheHedgehog on January 10, 2018, 12:18:42 pm
Didn't you hear the CG post-game interview? It all went downhill when some guy started complaining over and over about the stadium concessions.

That led to assistants leaving, recruits picking other schools, inexplicable losses, and in the end CBB and Long getting fired, and it all started with this guys and his obsession with game-day food. Kind of a butterfly effect. Crazy.

Rumor is that the lack of gameday food options is one of many reasons why Pittman wouldn't sign an extension...him and Chaney both knew that we weren't serious about quality football when we weren't even serious about quality concessions.

In the latest excerpt from the Twist Dossier, Chaney is quoted as saying: "I've had far better food at middle school football games than what is available at Razorback Stadium" -  Chaney is a man that knows his concessions.
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

ambien_sky

Quote from: The_Iceman on January 09, 2018, 03:54:08 pm
2015 was the year we had the talent and coaching staff to make a run. Bielema's lack of leadership let a team that could have gone 10-2 or 11-1.

Yep.  That year we had an incredible staff,  incredible running backs,  and Brandon Allen was probably the best throwing quarterback in the SEC at the time (In fact, I think the numbers proved that)  We had a killer offensive line.  I don't understand how we didn't do better.  I still don't.   

HF#1

Quote from: ambien_sky on January 10, 2018, 01:21:39 pm
Yep.  That year we had an incredible staff,  incredible running backs,  and Brandon Allen was probably the best throwing quarterback in the SEC at the time (In fact, I think the numbers proved that)  We had a killer offensive line.  I don't understand how we didn't do better.  I still don't.   

Didn't have the right leadership at the top. It's that simple.
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."  <br /><br />Benjamin Franklin

DLUXHOG

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on January 10, 2018, 06:37:55 am
Because those GA's are so important to being a great catching staff huh. Don't get me wrong that was a good staff but not because of Carrol.
Okay....  it was and is the only Hogs staff to even get a sniff at a NC since Broyles...
"Don't go in anyplace you'd be ashamed to die in..."
(you might get this someday)

twistitup

Quote from: DLUXHOG on January 10, 2018, 03:16:13 pm
Okay....  it was and is the only Hogs staff to even get a sniff at a NC since Broyles...

Did we 'sniff' under Petrino - just for a second?
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

DLUXHOG

"Don't go in anyplace you'd be ashamed to die in..."
(you might get this someday)

twistitup

Quote from: DLUXHOG on January 10, 2018, 03:48:36 pm
I wish, but no....

11-2 in 2011 wasn't too far away....ended ranked 5th nationally, but at some point we were in the mix and sniffin? Maybe?
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

DLUXHOG

Quote from: twistitup on January 10, 2018, 03:57:11 pm
11-2 in 2011 wasn't too far away....ended ranked 5th nationally, but at some point we were in the mix and sniffin? Maybe?

11-1... in 1977...  beat #2 team in Orange Bowl by double digits (Hogs were double digit underdogs)...  #1 team was beat in their bowl game.    I'm claiming NC for the Hogs for 1978....
"Don't go in anyplace you'd be ashamed to die in..."
(you might get this someday)

twistitup

Quote from: DLUXHOG on January 10, 2018, 04:06:14 pm
11-1... in 1977...  beat #2 team in Orange Bowl by double digits (Hogs were double digit underdogs)...  #1 team was beat in their bowl game.    I'm claiming NC for the Hogs for 1978....

We've been close....
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

bennyl08

Quote from: twistitup on January 10, 2018, 03:57:11 pm
11-2 in 2011 wasn't too far away....ended ranked 5th nationally, but at some point we were in the mix and sniffin? Maybe?

2010 was closer IMO.

Went toe to toe with Bama, went toe to toe with eventual national champion Auburn in a hose job via the refs, an we beat LSU before matching up very evenly with a very talented OSU team.

2011 team was blown out of the water by Bama and LSU. We beat an overrated KSU team in the bowl game.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Hoggish1

Quote from: twistitup on January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
I've said it many times before - CBB let the best staff in the SEC get away and couldn't replace them. If...I said IF he would have retained his first staff and was able to get the most out of them - could we be at the top of the SEC now?



No more living in the past.  CBB failed at keeping his staff, which was one of the reasons he left Wisky, according to him.

rzrbk4life

Quote from: bennyl08 on January 10, 2018, 04:50:47 pm
2010 was closer IMO.

Went toe to toe with Bama, went toe to toe with eventual national champion Auburn in a hose job via the refs, an we beat LSU before matching up very evenly with a very talented OSU team.

2011 team was blown out of the water by Bama and LSU. We beat an overrated KSU team in the bowl game.

I agree Benny that 2010 team was better. KSU was overrated in a weak big 12 conference
Let's call those hogs!!!!

PORKULATOR

Quote from: twistitup on January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
I've said it many times before - CBB let the best staff in the SEC get away and couldn't replace them. If...I said IF he would have retained his first staff and was able to get the most out of them - could we be at the top of the SEC now?





I tend to agree with this. Like 100%
+1 twist1onme
Everytime I reach a goal or achieve something new in life, someone's beat me there and wrote f♡€% you all over it - JD Salinger
I've got a fever and the only perscription...  is more cowbell.- THE Bruce Dickenson.

twistitup

Quote from: bennyl08 on January 10, 2018, 04:50:47 pm
2010 was closer IMO.

Went toe to toe with Bama, went toe to toe with eventual national champion Auburn in a hose job via the refs, an we beat LSU before matching up very evenly with a very talented OSU team.

2011 team was blown out of the water by Bama and LSU. We beat an overrated KSU team in the bowl game.

I can go with that...we 'sniffed' it in 2010
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

redneckfriend

Quote from: tusked on January 09, 2018, 04:39:43 pm



The biggest waist of coaching space at AR in modern history.

Is that supposed to be a pun on a homonym? If so, good one.

SavoySeamster

Quote from: twistitup on January 10, 2018, 03:57:11 pm
11-2 in 2011 wasn't too far away....ended ranked 5th nationally, but at some point we were in the mix and sniffin? Maybe?

If we could have beat LSU that year, we'd have been in the mix. 2010-2011 were great years.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes."

Pork Twain

If you are naming GA's as a big part of a "great" staff, you lose.
"It is better to be an optimist and proven wrong, than a pessimist and proven right." ~Pork Twain

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetmemes/

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: BoynamedWooPigSooie on January 10, 2018, 01:22:43 am
This is fallacy.

Bielema ran both Allen brothers out there shot up full of meds b/c he didn't have a capable #2 QB.  Derby and Storey were both disastrous when they got snaps.  Kelley worsened as the season progressed and his confidence was dissolving each passing week.

QB play under Bielema has been far, far from excellent. Brandon had a pretty good Sr. year and Austin had 1/2 a good Jr. Year.

I think you just see things differently than I do. I don't think confidence was ever an issue with Kelley. I think our OL vs Bama's defense was the issue. Regardless your opinion and mine are both from the comfort of our couch, and at best are guesses. Yours may have been an educated one, but I'm going to make an educated guess and say that it wasn't...
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

KCRazorbackfan

Quote from: twistitup on January 09, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
I've said it many times before - CBB let the best staff in the SEC get away and couldn't replace them. If...I said IF he would have retained his first staff and was able to get the most out of them - could we be at the top of the SEC now?

Seriously, what does it matter?  Some of y'all really have to quit living in the "what if" past.  Chunky Ass is gone, Whore Dog is gone; start trying to think about "what" the new regime is going to do.
Life took me to Central Florida, but I'll always be a Razorback.

hogcards

Amazing...

Just read through this thread and read the comments on Bielema.  You couldn't have said anything close to this here a year ago without being lambasted, or possibly banned.  Although its all very true.

"You have enemies? Good. It means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."~Winston Churchill

"Racist -- a person who wins an argument with a liberal."~Rush Limbaugh

#lgb
#mediaistheenemy
#stoleninarizona

Nashville Fan

January 11, 2018, 06:47:28 am #45 Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 07:16:13 am by Nashville Fan
Quote from: 83grad on January 09, 2018, 04:26:54 pm
1964

HC - Frank Broyles
AC - Johnny Majors
AC - Barry Switzer
AC - Bill Pace (went on to be the HC and AD at Vandy)
AC - Jim McKenzie (went on to be the HC at Oklahoma for one year before dying of a heart attack after the season)
This is a "WOW! that's an incredible staff" staff.

and in 2011
HC Bobby Petrino age 49
OC Garrick McGee age 37
DC Willie Robinson age 54

Got us to #3 in the nation. It kind of feels like the 2011 staff is more of what we have now. It could be a top 10 program if the magic is a formula.

An unproven offensive mind without the baggage of Bobby in Coach Morris age 49
younger Garrick version in Coach Craddock age 32 with strong history with HC
and older version of Willie in Coach Chavis

on the surface most would pick Petrino but we know he is an A$$ and a program killer. In Morris you get someone that has the potential to build the program with the support of Arkansas, Texas and Tulsa coaches and probably will out recruit Petrino because people love him.

With Craddock you get someone that has been involved in better programs than Garrick except younger with more to prove. This one I would start as a wash. However, Garrick carried some baggage also. So, this could be a slight upgrade.

With Chavis vs Willie - that is a major upgrade in all areas. Just enough crazy without going bat sheet crazy, very likable and respectable, he will recruit circles around Willie at age 80 cause we all know that Willie don't recruit.

This current staff has a lot of promise. I am liking this more and more.


Pittman or Bust!

DeltaBoy

If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

twistitup

Quote from: DeltaBoy on January 12, 2018, 09:12:54 am
The 64 and 78 staff were Loaded.

I have a sneaky feeling the 2018 staff will be loaded when looking back 10 years from now
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

Razorbackers

Quote from: The_Iceman on January 09, 2018, 03:54:08 pm
2015 was the year we had the talent and coaching staff to make a run. Bielema's lack of leadership let a team that could have gone 10-2 or 11-1.

2015 legit should have been a 10 win team, especially with a bowl game.

DLUXHOG

Quote from: Pork Twain on January 10, 2018, 10:12:59 pm
If you are naming GA's as a big part of a "great" staff, you lose.

Please.....  one of those "GA's" is only one of 3 coaches to ever win both at least one NCAA national championship AND at least one Super Bowl!  (BTW...  all three have one college in common..........ARKANSAS!)
"Don't go in anyplace you'd be ashamed to die in..."
(you might get this someday)