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Arkansas Mountian Lions

Started by Hogjawls, December 16, 2008, 07:08:36 pm

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cypert2

Quote from: old hog on February 06, 2009, 08:14:15 pm
Have not gone thru all the posts, on this topic, but was just curious, aren't Florida Panthers black? Smaller version of the Mt. Lion and South American Panther.

No
Swinging on the two and the four.

old hog


 

Albert Einswine

Quote from: old hog on February 06, 2009, 08:14:15 pm
Have not gone thru all the posts, on this topic, but was just curious, aren't Florida Panthers black? Smaller version of the Mt. Lion and South American Panther.



No.  In the entire western history of the North American continent there has never been, not even one, documented case or tangible evidence for a black mountain lion, cougar, panther, et al.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

old hog

This from Wikipedia, online encyclopedia:
Another possible explanation for black cougar sightings is the jaguarundi, a cat very similar genetically to the cougar, which grows to around 30 in (75 cm) with an additional 20 in (50 cm) of tail. Their coat goes through a reddish-brown phase and a dark grey phase. While their acknowledged natural range ends in southern Texas, a small breeding population was introduced to Florida in the 1940s, and there are rumors of people breeding them as pets there as well. In Central America, they are known as relatively docile pets, as far as non-domesticated animals go. The male jaguarundi's home range can be up to 100 km² (39 sq mi) while the female's home range can be as large as 20 km² (8 sq mi). It has been suggested that very small populations of jaguarundi, which rarely venture out of deep forests, are responsible for many or most of the supposed black cougar sightings. While they are significantly smaller than a cougar, differently colored, and much lower to the ground (many note a resemblance to the weasel), memory bias could explain many of the sightings in the southeastern U.S.

Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory. Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s. Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region.

JIMMY BOARFFETT

Quote from: old hog on February 07, 2009, 06:58:39 am
This from Wikipedia, online encyclopedia:
Another possible explanation for black cougar sightings is the jaguarundi, a cat very similar genetically to the cougar, which grows to around 30 in (75 cm) with an additional 20 in (50 cm) of tail. Their coat goes through a reddish-brown phase and a dark grey phase. While their acknowledged natural range ends in southern Texas, a small breeding population was introduced to Florida in the 1940s, and there are rumors of people breeding them as pets there as well. In Central America, they are known as relatively docile pets, as far as non-domesticated animals go. The male jaguarundi's home range can be up to 100 km² (39 sq mi) while the female's home range can be as large as 20 km² (8 sq mi). It has been suggested that very small populations of jaguarundi, which rarely venture out of deep forests, are responsible for many or most of the supposed black cougar sightings. While they are significantly smaller than a cougar, differently colored, and much lower to the ground (many note a resemblance to the weasel), memory bias could explain many of the sightings in the southeastern U.S.

Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory. Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s. Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region.

The 30" for a Jaguarundi would be the body length not height and on the high end at that.  I don't know if you mis read that or not but  A large Jaguarundi would be about 15" tall at most.  A jaguarundi is the size of a large house cat.  It does not approach the size of a Mt Lion.

Why does it not make more sense to explain the sightings of "black" critters with something that commonly occurs than with something that requires mental gymnastics?  These long shot "it could be this" type explanations are what drive authorities crazy.  They're not going to take anyone seriously who persists in suggesting that black jaguars (rare even where they occur) are making a comeback in Arkansas.

If any unusual black cat had a breeding population in southern/southeastern U.S. sufficient enough to cause the large number of reported "black cat" sightings, there would be some proof by now.  There simply is no proof.  The problem is the number of "black cat" sightings. 

My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.

old hog

February 07, 2009, 10:35:58 am #355 Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 10:43:03 am by old hog
Quote from: JIMMY BOARFFETT on February 07, 2009, 08:31:07 am


Why does it not make more sense to explain the sightings of "black" critters with something that commonly occurs than with something that requires mental gymnastics?  These long shot "it could be this" type explanations are what drive authorities crazy.  They're not going to take anyone seriously who persists in suggesting that black jaguars (rare even where they occur) are making a comeback in Arkansas.

If any unusual black cat had a breeding population in southern/southeastern U.S. sufficient enough to cause the large number of reported "black cat" sightings, there would be some proof by now.  There simply is no proof.  The problem is the number of "black cat" sightings. 


Believe you are right on that one. Or the possibility of a sighting being a pet let loose or escaped. A breeding population, no.

Albert Einswine

Here is the most likely explanation for any "black panther" sightings.  I've posted this link already some pages back, its from the Texas State Parks & Wildlife website:

"Description

Body length: 3-4 ft. Tail: 2.5-3 ft. Height at shoulder: 25-30 in. Weight: 70-170 lbs.

The Mountain Lion is a large, slender cat with a smallish head and noticeably long tail. Its fur is a light, tawny brown color which can appear gray or almost black, depending on light conditions. Contrary to popular belief, there are no black panthers in North America; no one has ever captured or killed a black Mountain Lion. Mountain Lions are also called cougars, pumas, panthers, painters, and catamounts."

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/mlion/
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

JIMMY BOARFFETT

Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 07, 2009, 11:11:34 am
Here is the most likely explanation for any "black panther" sightings.  I've posted this link already some pages back, its from the Texas State Parks & Wildlife website:

"Description

Body length: 3-4 ft. Tail: 2.5-3 ft. Height at shoulder: 25-30 in. Weight: 70-170 lbs.

The Mountain Lion is a large, slender cat with a smallish head and noticeably long tail. Its fur is a light, tawny brown color which can appear gray or almost black, depending on light conditions. Contrary to popular belief, there are no black panthers in North America; no one has ever captured or killed a black Mountain Lion. Mountain Lions are also called cougars, pumas, panthers, painters, and catamounts."

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/mlion/


but, but, but....what about.... very large gerbils.  It could be very large, black gerbils!  You can't rule that out.
My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.

Albert Einswine

Quote from: JIMMY BOARFFETT on February 07, 2009, 11:19:03 am

but, but, but....what about.... very large gerbils.  It could be very large, black gerbils!  You can't rule that out.


Well certainly not!  There's just as much verified evidence to support very large black gerbils as there is to support black mountain lions.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

JIMMY BOARFFETT

Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 07, 2009, 11:23:28 am

Well certainly not!  There's just as much verified evidence to support very large black gerbils as there is to support black mountain lions.

Well, okay then.
My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.

TuckerRay

Quote from: old hog on February 07, 2009, 06:58:39 am
This from Wikipedia, online encyclopedia:
Another possible explanation for black cougar sightings is the jaguarundi, a cat very similar genetically to the cougar, which grows to around 30 in (75 cm) with an additional 20 in (50 cm) of tail. Their coat goes through a reddish-brown phase and a dark grey phase. While their acknowledged natural range ends in southern Texas, a small breeding population was introduced to Florida in the 1940s, and there are rumors of people breeding them as pets there as well. In Central America, they are known as relatively docile pets, as far as non-domesticated animals go. The male jaguarundi's home range can be up to 100 km² (39 sq mi) while the female's home range can be as large as 20 km² (8 sq mi). It has been suggested that very small populations of jaguarundi, which rarely venture out of deep forests, are responsible for many or most of the supposed black cougar sightings. While they are significantly smaller than a cougar, differently colored, and much lower to the ground (many note a resemblance to the weasel), memory bias could explain many of the sightings in the southeastern U.S.

Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory. Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s. Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region.

Sounds like a Bobcat

Wayne Watson

Quote from: TuckerRay on February 07, 2009, 01:25:37 pm
Sounds like a Bobcat

A bobcat's tail is no more than 6" long.  But if you can have a black coyote, why not a black mountain lion?

Take a look at http://gridironhistory.com/
IF YOU DON'T TAILGATE WITH HOGVILLE...YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TO A TAILGATE!
Check out www.fearlessfriday.com
We don't rent pigs

beachhawg

Just read this for the first time.  My grandfather killed a blank panther in South Arkansas about 6 miles south of Crossett about 25 years ago.  That was free.

 

RedRiverHog

Quote from: wayne1958 on February 07, 2009, 01:30:58 pm
A bobcat's tail is no more than 6" long.  But if you can have a black coyote, why not a black mountain lion?



Did you trap those?
Quote from: cosmodrum on December 23, 2011, 12:45:49 pm
Then I luuuuuvs the dick.

"Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is free to combat it"  - Thomas Jefferson

"You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." Ayn Rand

twistitup

Quote from: Bailey on February 07, 2009, 04:27:02 pm
Just read this for the first time.  My grandfather killed a blank panther in South Arkansas about 6 miles south of Crossett about 25 years ago.  That was free.

Once again, nobody on this board will believe you. I have seen one killed as well and was made out to be a crazed drug addict so be careful saying you have seen one dead! They may take your 'moderator' status away due to the spreading of 'lies'....
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

cypert2

Quote from: Bailey on February 07, 2009, 04:27:02 pm
Just read this for the first time.  My grandfather killed a blank panther in South Arkansas about 6 miles south of Crossett about 25 years ago.  That was free.
Here we go again. Isn't it odd that of all the "black panthers" killed not one person ever bothered to take a picture. I mean not one. Dozens of people claim to have killed something as rare as a "black panther" and not one picture. Think about it.
Swinging on the two and the four.

ThisTeetsTaken

Quote from: cypert2 on February 07, 2009, 07:29:19 pm
Here we go again. Isn't it odd that of all the "black panthers" killed not one person ever bothered to take a picture. I mean not one. Dozens of people claim to have killed something as rare as a "black panther" and not one picture. Think about it.
I would take a pic for dang sure.  I'd also mount that sumbeach.
***"He must increase, but I must decrease"***

HogBreath

Quote from: cypert2 on February 07, 2009, 07:29:19 pm
Here we go again. Isn't it odd that of all the "black panthers" killed not one person ever bothered to take a picture. I mean not one. Dozens of people claim to have killed something as rare as a "black panther" and not one picture. Think about it.
I caught a black bass one time that was so big the picture weighed 5 pounds.
I said...LSU has often been an overrated team.

That ignoramus Draconian Sanctions said..if we're overrated, why are we ranked higher than you are?

Albert Einswine

Hmmmmm... why do all the scientists keep participating in the cover up of the black panther menace?



“When I saw the photos of this animal I knew immediately it was not a
mountain lion,” said Jeff Beringer, a resource scientist with the
Missouri Department of Conservation. “Old World leopards and jaguars
in the New World can be spotted or black. Mountain lions vary a little
in the color of their coat, but they are never black
.”

http://outdoornewsdaily.com/index.php/archives/4268


"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

TuckerRay

Quote from: wayne1958 on February 07, 2009, 01:30:58 pm
A bobcat's tail is no more than 6" long.  But if you can have a black coyote, why not a black mountain lion?



That's brindle, not black

spit

Quote from: wayne1958 on February 07, 2009, 01:30:58 pm
A bobcat's tail is no more than 6" long.  But if you can have a black coyote, why not a black mountain lion?



haha.  OK, i can see your point. 

BUT ------  Black coyotes are well documented and easily confirmed.  So are black squirrels.  Relatively speaking a "black phase" of coyote is not terribly uncommon as these things go and science has proven them.. THE RESULT = and likewise you have presented a picture of one right there, dead.  Someone else posted above about a gentleman that has trapped and caged one or more..  ------


black cougar/panther/mtn lion
well documented?  NO! actually never at all in history even
easily confirmed?  NO!!  Never!!!
black phase?  NO! Does Not Exist as far as science has ever proven.
ANY PICTURES of one dead? NO!
Anybody have one trapped and put in a cage?  NO!
Anybody ever sold a fur of a black mtn lion at a fur sale in north america much less arkansas?  NO!!

now, do you see my point?

Wayne Watson

Quote from: RedRiverHog on February 07, 2009, 06:57:02 pm
Did you trap those?

No.  It was from the Arkansas Trapper's Association fur sale in Russellville last weekend.
Take a look at http://gridironhistory.com/
IF YOU DON'T TAILGATE WITH HOGVILLE...YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TO A TAILGATE!
Check out www.fearlessfriday.com
We don't rent pigs

twistitup

How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

Albert Einswine

"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

 

TuckerRay

Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 08, 2009, 03:18:22 pm

Good article.  I didn't see any mention of black panthers in it.

Good reason, they don't exist in North America, I don't care who says their grand daddy killed one. There just ain't no such thing.

twistitup

February 08, 2009, 04:38:47 pm #375 Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 04:42:27 pm by twistitup
Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 08, 2009, 03:18:22 pm

Good article.  I didn't see any mention of black panthers in it.

No, just mentions how the AGFC likes to avoid the truth. Where there are cougars, there will be a melanistic one. How can you deny the fact that a black cougar is POSSIBLE?

Or, do you work for them?
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

Albert Einswine

Quote from: twistitup on February 08, 2009, 04:38:47 pm
No, just mentions how the AGFC likes to avoid the truth. Where there are cougars, there will be a melanistic one. How can you deny the fact that a black cougar is POSSIBLE?

Or, do you work for them?


In the 496 years of European contact and settlement of what is present day America, there is not one credible piece of evidence to support your melanistic cougar delusion.  Not one photograph, not one skin, not one mount.  If there were black cougars there would be evidence.  If there ever is a melanistic cougar population that springs up, then hallelujah! 

Until then, its no different than the skunk ape, big foot or the yeti.

I don't work for them, they don't pay nearly well enough.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

twistitup

February 08, 2009, 06:03:55 pm #377 Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 06:10:15 pm by twistitup
Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 08, 2009, 05:51:42 pm

In the 496 years of European contact and settlement of what is present day America, there is not one credible piece of evidence to support your melanistic cougar delusion.  Not one photograph, not one skin, not one mount.  If there were black cougars there would be evidence.  If there ever is a melanistic cougar population that springs up, then hallelujah! 

Until then, its no different than the skunk ape, big foot or the yeti.

I don't work for them, they don't pay nearly well enough.

There have been wild black cats (cougars, pumas, jaguars, etc~ call them what you choose...) that have roamed our area in the past. They may or may not have been melanistic, but they have existed. 

Hey it's not just me; I guess everybody is just lying

http://isurfcabot.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=166
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

beachhawg

February 08, 2009, 06:08:17 pm #378 Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 06:11:23 pm by Bailey
Quote from: cypert2 on February 07, 2009, 07:29:19 pm
Here we go again. Isn't it odd that of all the "black panthers" killed not one person ever bothered to take a picture. I mean not one. Dozens of people claim to have killed something as rare as a "black panther" and not one picture. Think about it.

I actually didnt have my digital camera with me back in the day.  Believe what you may, that tidbit of info on the killing was free. 
Ashley County borders Morehouse Parish.  So, read the link, it could have been a Texas Cougar, a jaguar, or a panther.

http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/la-cats/

I know when I was in the media in south arkansas we covered the usfw service as the tried to re-introduce the florida panther to south arkansas (felsenthal). 

Albert Einswine

Quote from: Bailey on February 08, 2009, 06:08:17 pm
I actually didnt have my digital camera with me back in the day.  Believe what you may, that tidbit of info on the killing was free. 
Ashley County borders Morehouse Parish.  So, read the link, it could have been a Texas Cougar.

http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/la-cats/


The only melanistic big cat known to the western hemisphere is the jaguar (pantera onca).  No evidence exists for melanistic mountain lions/cougars (puma concolor).


Here's yet another site that reinforces this:  http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Black_panther

"Melanistic cougars
There are no authenticated cases of truly melanistic cougars. Black cougars have been reported in Kentucky and in the Carolinas. There have also been reports of glossy black cougars from Kansas, Texas and eastern Nebraska. These have come to be known as the North American black panther. None have ever been photographed or shot in the wild and none have been bred. There is wide consensus among breeders and biologists that the animal does not exist and is a cryptid. Sightings are currently attributed to errors in species identification by non-experts, and by the memetic exaggeration of size.

Historically, black panthers in the American Southeast feature prominently in Choctaw folklore where, along with the owl, they are often thought to symbolize Death.

In his Histoire Naturelle (1749), Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon, wrote of the "Black Cougar":
"M. de la Borde, King’s physician at Cayenne, informs me, that in the [South American] Continent there are three species of rapacious animals; that the first is the jaguar, which is called the tiger; that the second is the couguar [sic], called the red tiger, on account of the uniform redness of his hair; that the jaguar is of the size of a large bull-dog, and weighs about 200 pounds (90 kg); that the couguar is smaller, less dangerous, and not so frequent in the neighbourhood of Cayenne as the jaguar; and that both these animals take six years in acquiring their full growth. He adds, that there is a third species in these countries, called the black tiger, of which we have given a figure under the appellation of the black couguar. The head is pretty similar to that of the common cougar; but the animal has long black hair, and likewise a long tail, with strong whiskers. He weighs not much above forty pounds. The female brings forth her young in the hollows of old trees."
This "black couguar" was most likely a margay or ocelot, which are under forty pounds in weight, live in trees, and occur in a melanistic phase.

Another description of a black cougar was provided by Pennant:

According to his translator Smellie (1781), the description was taken from two black cougars exhibited in London some years previously.
Reports of black cougars in the United States
In Florida, a few melanistic bobcats have been captured; these have also apparently been mistaken for panthers. Ulmer (1941) presents photographs and descriptions of two animals captured in Martin County in 1939 and 1940. In the photographs, they appear black, and one of the hunters called them black. However,

The Academy specimen, upon close examination, is far from black. The most heavily pigmented portions are the crown and dorsal area. In most lights these areas appear black, but at certain angles the dorsal strip has a decidedly mahogany tint. The mahogany coloring becomes lighter and richer on the sides. The underparts are lightest, being almost ferruginous in color. The chin, throat and cheeks are dark chocolate-brown, but the facial stripes can be seen clearly. The limbs are dark mahogany. In certain lights the typical spot-pattern of the Florida bobcat can be distinctly seen on the side, underparts and limbs. The Bronx Park animal appears darker and the spots are not visible, although the poor light in the quarantine cage may have been the reason.

Adult male bobcats are 28–47 in (70–120 cm) long, with a short, bobbed tail, and are 18–24 in (45–60 cm) high at the shoulder. Females are slightly smaller. Florida cougars are 23–32 in (60–80 cm) at the shoulder and 5–7 ft (1.5–2.1 m) long, including the tail. Bobcats weigh 16–30 lb (7–14 kg) while Florida cougars are 50–150 lb (23–70 kg).

Another possible explanation for black cougar sightings is the jaguarundi, a cat very similar genetically to the cougar, which grows to around 30 in (75 cm) with an additional 20 in (50 cm) of tail. Their coat goes through a reddish-brown phase and a dark grey phase. While their acknowledged natural range ends in southern Texas, a small breeding population was introduced to Florida in the 1940s, and there are rumors of people breeding them as pets there as well. In Central America, they are known as relatively docile pets, as far as non-domesticated animals go. The male jaguarundi's home range can be up to 100 km² (39 sq mi) while the female's home range can be as large as 20 km² (8 sq mi). It has been suggested that very small populations of jaguarundi, which rarely venture out of deep forests, are responsible for many or most of the supposed black cougar sightings. While they are significantly smaller than a cougar, differently colored, and much lower to the ground (many note a resemblance to the weasel), memory bias could explain many of the sightings in the southeastern U.S.

Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory. Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s. Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region." 
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

beachhawg

Very well could be a cougar.  I know it sure looked and sounded like a panther.  Do cougars wail like a baby?  I remember this one was. 

According to the La Game and Fish there have been sightings of the "black panther" however they have said it is more than likely a cougar or a jag.  Now, from my ecology and all the animal science classes I took, I would be inclined to believe that there could be cougars/jaguars in south arkansas as the range is not that uncommon from texas and oklahoma.  It was no bobcat, they are very easily distinguishable. 
My brother in law bought one of those docile pets.  Call em what you want, they arent that docile.  He ended up selling it because it scared his family with all the growling and acting all bad.   

twistitup

February 08, 2009, 06:39:59 pm #381 Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 06:46:49 pm by twistitup
Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 08, 2009, 06:19:37 pm

The only melanistic big cat known to the western hemisphere is the jaguar (pantera onca).  No evidence exists for melanistic mountain lions/cougars (puma concolor).


Here's yet another site that reinforces this:  http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Black_panther

"Melanistic cougars
There are no authenticated cases of truly melanistic cougars. Black cougars have been reported in Kentucky and in the Carolinas. There have also been reports of glossy black cougars from Kansas, Texas and eastern Nebraska. These have come to be known as the North American black panther. None have ever been photographed or shot in the wild and none have been bred. There is wide consensus among breeders and biologists that the animal does not exist and is a cryptid. Sightings are currently attributed to errors in species identification by non-experts, and by the memetic exaggeration of size.

Historically, black panthers in the American Southeast feature prominently in Choctaw folklore where, along with the owl, they are often thought to symbolize Death.

In his Histoire Naturelle (1749), Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon, wrote of the "Black Cougar":
"M. de la Borde, King's physician at Cayenne, informs me, that in the [South American] Continent there are three species of rapacious animals; that the first is the jaguar, which is called the tiger; that the second is the couguar [sic], called the red tiger, on account of the uniform redness of his hair; that the jaguar is of the size of a large bull-dog, and weighs about 200 pounds (90 kg); that the couguar is smaller, less dangerous, and not so frequent in the neighbourhood of Cayenne as the jaguar; and that both these animals take six years in acquiring their full growth. He adds, that there is a third species in these countries, called the black tiger, of which we have given a figure under the appellation of the black couguar. The head is pretty similar to that of the common cougar; but the animal has long black hair, and likewise a long tail, with strong whiskers. He weighs not much above forty pounds. The female brings forth her young in the hollows of old trees."
This "black couguar" was most likely a margay or ocelot, which are under forty pounds in weight, live in trees, and occur in a melanistic phase.

Another description of a black cougar was provided by Pennant:

According to his translator Smellie (1781), the description was taken from two black cougars exhibited in London some years previously.
Reports of black cougars in the United States
In Florida, a few melanistic bobcats have been captured; these have also apparently been mistaken for panthers. Ulmer (1941) presents photographs and descriptions of two animals captured in Martin County in 1939 and 1940. In the photographs, they appear black, and one of the hunters called them black. However,

The Academy specimen, upon close examination, is far from black. The most heavily pigmented portions are the crown and dorsal area. In most lights these areas appear black, but at certain angles the dorsal strip has a decidedly mahogany tint. The mahogany coloring becomes lighter and richer on the sides. The underparts are lightest, being almost ferruginous in color. The chin, throat and cheeks are dark chocolate-brown, but the facial stripes can be seen clearly. The limbs are dark mahogany. In certain lights the typical spot-pattern of the Florida bobcat can be distinctly seen on the side, underparts and limbs. The Bronx Park animal appears darker and the spots are not visible, although the poor light in the quarantine cage may have been the reason.

Adult male bobcats are 28–47 in (70–120 cm) long, with a short, bobbed tail, and are 18–24 in (45–60 cm) high at the shoulder. Females are slightly smaller. Florida cougars are 23–32 in (60–80 cm) at the shoulder and 5–7 ft (1.5–2.1 m) long, including the tail. Bobcats weigh 16–30 lb (7–14 kg) while Florida cougars are 50–150 lb (23–70 kg).

Another possible explanation for black cougar sightings is the jaguarundi, a cat very similar genetically to the cougar, which grows to around 30 in (75 cm) with an additional 20 in (50 cm) of tail. Their coat goes through a reddish-brown phase and a dark grey phase. While their acknowledged natural range ends in southern Texas, a small breeding population was introduced to Florida in the 1940s, and there are rumors of people breeding them as pets there as well. In Central America, they are known as relatively docile pets, as far as non-domesticated animals go. The male jaguarundi's home range can be up to 100 km² (39 sq mi) while the female's home range can be as large as 20 km² (8 sq mi). It has been suggested that very small populations of jaguarundi, which rarely venture out of deep forests, are responsible for many or most of the supposed black cougar sightings. While they are significantly smaller than a cougar, differently colored, and much lower to the ground (many note a resemblance to the weasel), memory bias could explain many of the sightings in the southeastern U.S.

Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory. Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s. Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region." 


Now we are arguing about the name of the cat. Wild Black cats do exist and have roamed our territory. Last sentence says the jaguar (black) has been photo confirmed. End of story.

Tito, you want to argue about names, I don't - fact is wild black cats could exist. Read the last paragraph of what YOU just posted.
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

Albert Einswine

Quote from: twistitup on February 08, 2009, 06:39:59 pm
Now we are arguing about the name of the cat. Wild Black cats do exist and have roamed our territory. Last sentence says the jaguar (black) has been photo confirmed. End of story.

Tito, you want to argue about names, I don't - fact is wild black cats could exist. Read the last paragraph of what YOU just posted.


Pothead,  I have never said wild black cats don't exist.  I maintain black mountain lions don't exist.  You're the one in this thread who has the delusion that black mountain lions exist.

The last paragraph says the jaguar, not black jaguar, has been photo confirmed.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

jkstock04

Pretty interesting article in the Democrat Gazette today on page 12c about this topic.  Sorry I couldn't find a link to it where you didn't have to subscribe.  But I found the article interesting and informative as to why the AGFC doesn't come out and saw we have wild cats in Arkansas. 

One thing that did catch my eye was when he went into how the meth heads like to keep these things as pets for protection...but when they get busted and go to jail they are inevitably let go in the woods.  Just one more hole shot in the "wild" mtn. lion theories.  This guy who wrote the article worked for the AGFC for 8 years, so take his story for what its worth. 

I mean really....a few years back my wife saw a monkey up in the trees during a float trip.  Does that mean we have wild monkeys running around in the woods prevalentley?
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

JIMMY BOARFFETT

Quote from: twistitup on February 08, 2009, 06:39:59 pm
Now we are arguing about the name of the cat. Wild Black cats do exist and have roamed our territory. Last sentence says the jaguar (black) has been photo confirmed. End of story.

Tito, you want to argue about names, I don't - fact is wild black cats could exist. Read the last paragraph of what YOU just posted.

TwistitUp, come on man don't just look at something and see what you want to see.  The last sentence reads: 

The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region. 

You added the "Black" to your quote.  Also note the only region of photographically confirmed sightings of the normal jaguar in the southwest U.S. does not include Arkansas.
My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.

cypert2

History channel right now; 8:00 CST, your black panther.
Swinging on the two and the four.

HogBreath

February 08, 2009, 08:37:05 pm #386 Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:41:26 pm by HogBreath
I'm watching a black panther kitty cat right now on the history channel.
I said...LSU has often been an overrated team.

That ignoramus Draconian Sanctions said..if we're overrated, why are we ranked higher than you are?

TuckerRay

Quote from: jkstock04 on February 08, 2009, 08:12:19 pm
Pretty interesting article in the Democrat Gazette today on page 12c about this topic.  Sorry I couldn't find a link to it where you didn't have to subscribe.  But I found the article interesting and informative as to why the AGFC doesn't come out and saw we have wild cats in Arkansas. 

One thing that did catch my eye was when he went into how the meth heads like to keep these things as pets for protection...but when they get busted and go to jail they are inevitably let go in the woods.  Just one more hole shot in the "wild" mtn. lion theories.  This guy who wrote the article worked for the AGFC for 8 years, so take his story for what its worth. 

I mean really....a few years back my wife saw a monkey up in the trees during a float trip.  Does that mean we have wild monkeys running around in the woods prevalentley?

Twist did you let one go?

HogBreath

Quote from: HogBreath on February 08, 2009, 08:37:05 pm
I'm watching a black panther kitty cat right now on the history channel.
Actually the critter on the History Channel show does sound like it may have legs, no pun intended.  It is very close in size to the critter I once got a look at just outside of Nashville, AR, and of course, that creature may have just been an ordinary black house cat, but I don't think so.
I said...LSU has often been an overrated team.

That ignoramus Draconian Sanctions said..if we're overrated, why are we ranked higher than you are?

spit

Quote from: twistitup on February 08, 2009, 04:38:47 pm
No, just mentions how the AGFC likes to avoid the truth. Where there are cougars, there will be a melanistic one. How can you deny the fact that a black cougar is POSSIBLE?

Or, do you work for them?

AYSM?  seriously?  Just logical reasoning huh?  sheesh. 

I guess the Duggars will have a black baby pretty soon.

spit

Quote from: twistitup on February 08, 2009, 04:38:47 pm
No, just mentions how the AGFC likes to avoid the truth. Where there are cougars, there will be a melanistic one. How can you deny the fact that a black cougar is POSSIBLE?

Or, do you work for them?

i don't know if anybody is saying it is not POSSIBLE..  hell anything's possible, but that DOES NOT MEAN ITS EVER HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE.  It hasn't happened yet.  that's all.  Do you pretend to have proof otherwise?  where is the proof?  Oh that's right there is NONE = hasn't happened = doesn't exist.... yet.

spit


Note, Bryan Hendricks writes a lot of BS in his articles too.  Don't be fooled by everything he says. 

If 1 meth-cooker also happened to have a pet mtn lion... Hendricks will take that and run with it.  It is interesting he defends that as fact but has never backed it up with anything substantial.  Its quite possible that is his own fabricated theory trying to look smart.  Its a pretty stupid idea if you ask me and i doubt its legitimacy.  a "gaurd cat" ... give me a break.  a meth head aint training mtn lions to love him but to attack other people.

cypert2

Quote from: spit on February 09, 2009, 12:37:36 am
Note, Bryan Hendricks writes a lot of BS in his articles too.  Don't be fooled by everything he says. 

If 1 meth-cooker also happened to have a pet mtn lion... Hendricks will take that and run with it.  It is interesting he defends that as fact but has never backed it up with anything substantial.  Its quite possible that is his own fabricated theory trying to look smart.  Its a pretty stupid idea if you ask me and i doubt its legitimacy.  a "gaurd cat" ... give me a break.  a meth head aint training mtn lions to love him but to attack other people.
Yes, thought that was a bunch of BS when I read it. Meth cookers with guard mountain lions. Where does he come up with that nonsense.
Swinging on the two and the four.

twistitup


Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 08, 2009, 07:16:02 pm
Quote from: JIMMY BOARFFETT on February 08, 2009, 08:13:14 pm
TwistitUp, come on man don't just look at something and see what you want to see.  The last sentence reads: 

The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region. 

You added the "Black" to your quote.  Also note the only region of photographically confirmed sightings of the normal jaguar in the southwest U.S. does not include Arkansas.

First sentence, last paragraph. Yes, it says BLACK.

I know the region spoke of does not include AR, but we are neighboring states with TX. Or, is it another one of these cats that does not like Arkansas and refused to roam across the border?
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

twistitup

I guess is was a jaguar that was shot on my farm in Texas, not a Black Mountain Lion.

Thanks for the article Tito!
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....

Albert Einswine

Quote from: twistitup on February 09, 2009, 06:54:58 am
First sentence, last paragraph. Yes, it says BLACK.

I know the region spoke of does not include AR, but we are neighboring states with TX. Or, is it another one of these cats that does not like Arkansas and refused to roam across the border?



It's obvious to everyone that your reading comprehension is weak.  Let's look at that last paragraph again.

"Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory.  Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s." Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region."


The authors are merely saying that a "possible" explanation "could" be a melanistic jaguar which they admit is "uncommon" in nature.  They go on to say it is "conceivable" that a population of jaguars (not black jaguars) "could" exist in the Lousiana bayous, although there is no "photographic evidence" for their presence beyond Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma and southwest Texas.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

JIMMY BOARFFETT

Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 09, 2009, 07:25:10 am


It's obvious to everyone that your reading comprehension is weak.  Let's look at that last paragraph again.

"Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory.  Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s." Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region."


The authors are merely saying that a "possible" explanation "could" be a melanistic jaguar which they admit is "uncommon" in nature.  They go on to say it is "conceivable" that a population of jaguars (not black jaguars) "could" exist in the Lousiana bayous, although there is no "photographic evidence" for their presence beyond Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma and southwest Texas.

I think Twistitup suffers from "Selective Reading Comprehension" when it comes to these cryptozoological creatures.  In Twistitup's world, "could, conceivable, possible, rare, uncommon" all = Proof.

My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.

TuckerRay

Kind of off the subject but I thought I would ask. Have any of you seen any dragons flying around in Arkansas?

NuttSu

Quote from: TuckerRay on February 09, 2009, 10:37:39 am
Kind of off the subject but I thought I would ask. Have any of you seen any dragons flying around in Arkansas?
I see them all the time while fishing. Alot of times they will light on the end of your pole. :D

twistitup

February 09, 2009, 02:09:18 pm #399 Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 02:11:17 pm by twistitup
Quote from: Albert Einswine on February 09, 2009, 07:25:10 am


It's obvious to everyone that your reading comprehension is weak.  Let's look at that last paragraph again.

"Another possibility would be the black jaguar which ranged into North America in historical memory.  Melanistic jaguars are uncommon in nature and, significantly, jaguars in general were persecuted to near-extinction in the 1960s." Though they do not look exactly like cougars, they have the requisite size; it is conceivable that there could be a breeding population hidden in, for example, the Louisiana bayou. The jaguar has had several (photographically) confirmed, and many unconfirmed, sightings in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and southwest Texas, but not beyond that region."


The authors are merely saying that a "possible" explanation "could" be a melanistic jaguar which they admit is "uncommon" in nature.  They go on to say it is "conceivable" that a population of jaguars (not black jaguars) "could" exist in the Lousiana bayous, although there is no "photographic evidence" for their presence beyond Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma and southwest Texas.

Tito,
I choose to look at things a bit differently I guess; the authors 'possible explanation' is correct in my eyes.

Conceivable, could, and possible are all very understandable. It means that there is a possibility for jaguars to exist in Texas, even the 'black' ones although they are 'uncommon' in nature. (and since Arkansas and Texas border there is a 'chance' they are in AR as well.

I saw a dead black cat in Texas, on our family farm and I 'choose' to believe it was a 'black' jaguar. It is 'possible' you know.
How you gonna win when you ain't right within?

Here I am again mixing misery and gin....