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Foul!!!!!!

Started by ShadowHawg, January 13, 2018, 07:11:35 pm

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ShadowHawg


HiggiePiggy

We were up 2 and you were wanting them to foul so they couldn't shoot a 3? Is this correct?
If a man speaks and no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?

 

Sow’sEar

I don't think you foul if you're only up 2....

BannerMountainMan

And we would still be in overtime
"Michael Qualls with the dunk at the buzzer, it goes and Arkansas wins, it goes and Arkansas wins"

ShadowHawg

Yep.

They had no height to play against Gafford with in overtime and he was on tonight.

Crazy to let them get a 3 of any kind off.

You also get the last possession in a tie game tonight.

beachhog

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:25:27 pm
Yep.

They had no height to play against Gafford with in overtime and he was on tonight.

Crazy to let them get a 3 of any kind off.

You also get the last possession in a tie game.
That 3 almost went in. That is valid.

Sow’sEar

You don't ever see any coach foul on purpose when their team is up by 2 in the closing seconds.  You're confusing that with when coaches foul when they are up by three. 

HiggiePiggy

Ok I just wanted to make sure I read what you said correctly.
If a man speaks and no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?

BannerMountainMan

Quote from: Lulu Hog on January 13, 2018, 07:29:33 pm
You don't ever see any coach foul on purpose when their team is up by 2 in the closing seconds.  You're confusing that with when coaches foul when they are up by three.
yeah I have never ever seen that happen either
"Michael Qualls with the dunk at the buzzer, it goes and Arkansas wins, it goes and Arkansas wins"

ShadowHawg

I have seen plenty of games where teams foul in that situation.

You wouldn't do it on the road, but at home with their two bigs fouled out, Gafford playing Big, and 17k in the building it's really not much of a gamble.

King Kong

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:45:04 pm
I have seen plenty of games where teams foul in that situation.

You wouldn't do it on the road, but at home with their two bigs fouled out, Gafford playing Big, and 17k in the building it's really not much of a gamble.

Can you name me a couple?

LRHawg

I think he's talking about the screen on Macon right before their 3 attempt on the last play of the game. Should have been a foul, Macon shoots two with about 5 seconds left.

greenEGnHAWGS

Surely this guy is joking, right? You don't ever send a guy to the line and give him an uncontested way to tie the game in the fear that they make a 3. Why would you do that?
Did they get you to trade a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage...?

 

ShadowHawg

Quote from: King Kong on January 13, 2018, 07:49:09 pm
Can you name me a couple?

Without going on the internet, tell me the names of the three refs from our last game. If you can't then they must have played the game without refs.

I can do this too.

HiggiePiggy

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:56:35 pm
Without going on the internet, tell me the names of the three refs from our last game. If you can't then they must have played the game without refs.

I can do this too.

No teams do this unless they are just stupid. That is a dumb thing to do and would lead to coaches being fired.
If a man speaks and no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?

c-townfan

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:25:27 pm
Yep.

They had no height to play against Gafford with in overtime and he was on tonight.

Crazy to let them get a 3 of any kind off.

You also get the last possession in a tie game tonight.

We played great defense against that 3. Barford was all over him.

Sow’sEar

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:56:35 pm
Without going on the internet, tell me the names of the three refs from our last game. If you can't then they must have played the game without refs.

I can do this too.
Shadow, we are just gonna have to agree to disagree.  Not that anyone cares what you or I think, but I truly think when you think about what you're saying long enough you'll realize you're not correct.  Any coach that would make that decision wouldn't be a coach for long....

Hoggish1


Randohoggie

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:11:35 pm
No chance for 3

The dumbest thing I have read lately, and that is saying something.

ishankem

ShadowH has the makings of a top MA assistant???

forrest city joe

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:11:35 pm
No chance for 3
No NO NO NO------------------hogs were up 2. no way you foul. if they hit a 3 and win the game,so be it. you do not foul.

rzrbackramsfan

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:11:35 pm
No chance for 3

I like the idea actually, we would've had them in OT.

Dirty


BannerMountainMan

This is the only time you foul
"Michael Qualls with the dunk at the buzzer, it goes and Arkansas wins, it goes and Arkansas wins"

 

greenEGnHAWGS

Did they get you to trade a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage...?

BannerMountainMan

"Michael Qualls with the dunk at the buzzer, it goes and Arkansas wins, it goes and Arkansas wins"

ShadowHawg

Quote from: greenEGnHAWGS on January 13, 2018, 07:55:57 pm
Surely this guy is joking, right? You don't ever send a guy to the line and give him an uncontested way to tie the game in the fear that they make a 3. Why would you do that?

Let's work through the inverse to understand the situation better.

Do road teams with their top two interior players already fouled out and only down two ever draw plays up for 3's? We just watched a game where that very thing happened. Happens frequently even without the fouled out big men.

The exact opposite of that is to force that team to do what they don't want to do, go to overtime at your place.

I wouldn't do this 1 out of 100 times if they have all their players but having watched and called easily over 1000 games in just the last decade I have seen this done just to control a team's destiny. Some coaches are serious about having the last possession to that degree.

This was a rare circumstance where it comes out giving you more favorable circumstances than in a routine situation.

First, you are conceding two makes. Why? You still get to choose who you foul.

Let's run down scenarios of them taking a 3 from a half court set. They miss, we win. They make we lose.

They get fouled shooting the 3. They can win by making 3 ft's, making two ft's rebound and putback on the 3rd. Make two and Rebound miss get fouled, make both ft's. Make two Rebound the miss and only make one ft. Miss all 3, rebound and make a 3. Rebound ft miss and get the putback and foul, convert.

You can also accidentally foul them late taking a two because they couldn't get a 3 and they convert both the shot and ft. They get two shots, make one Rebound the second get the putback. Putback and foul. Kick out to open shooter.

Now look at fouling them coming up the court.

It's just the the 2 shot ft scenarios. That's 3 losing scenarios.

Letting them run a half court set offers 9 ways to lose. You are not eleminating any of the 2 foul shot scenarios because of the double bonus.

9 losing scenarios with no shot attempt to win for your team compared to 3 scenarios that give you the opportunity to shoot for the win.

Furthermore, if you were offered a bet of Missouri at Fayetteville without their top 2 big guys and Gafford balling out, are you really putting money on the Tigers.

Fouling isn't an option most of the time. Not saying it is. Not mad at MA for not, not pretending to be smarter than MA.

But I have seen this done more than once when the pieces fall into place like today. I have seen it done your way most of the time in the same circumstances.

I liked our chances with around 8 possessions apiece to decide a game in this instance than a one done scenario where the other team wins at a higher rate than they do in the overtime scenario.


rzrbackramsfan

Or they had a 40% chance to win on a three going that route vs fouling where, if we put a 75% free throw shooter at the line, they have 75% chance on the first throw, 75% chance on the second, 75% chance we don't score after their free throws, and they had probably a 35% chance of winning in OT. 

In the second scenario they had a 75% x 75% x 75% x 35% = 15% chance of winning. 

Get at me Nielsboars!

greenEGnHAWGS

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 08:42:43 pm
Let's work through the inverse to understand the situation better.

Do road teams with their top two interior players already fouled out and only down two ever draw plays up for 3's? We just watched a game where that very thing happened. Happens frequently even without the fouled out big men.

The exact opposite of that is to force that team to do what they don't want to do, go to overtime at your place.

I wouldn't do this 1 out of 100 times if they have all their players but having watched and called easily over 1000 games in just the last decade I have seen this done just to control a team's destiny. Some coaches are serious about having the last possession to that degree.

This was a rare circumstance where it comes out giving you more favorable circumstances than in a routine situation.

First, you are conceding two makes. Why? You still get to choose who you foul.

Let's run down scenarios of them taking a 3 from a half court set. They miss, we win. They make we lose.

They get fouled shooting the 3. They can win by making 3 ft's, making two ft's rebound and putback on the 3rd. Make two and Rebound miss get fouled, make both ft's. Make two Rebound the miss and only make one ft. Miss all 3, rebound and make a 3. Rebound ft miss and get the putback and foul, convert.

You can also accidentally foul them late taking a two because they couldn't get a 3 and they convert both the shot and ft. They get two shots, make one Rebound the second get the putback. Putback and foul. Kick out to open shooter.

Now look at fouling them coming up the court.

It's just the the 2 shot ft scenarios. That's 3 losing scenarios.

Letting them run a half court set offers 9 ways to lose. You are not eleminating any of the 2 foul shot scenarios because of the double bonus.

9 losing scenarios with no shot attempt to win for your team compared to 3 scenarios that give you the opportunity to shoot for the win.

Furthermore, if you were offered a bet of Missouri at Fayetteville without their top 2 big guys and Gafford balling out, are you really putting money on the Tigers.

Fouling isn't an option most of the time. Not saying it is. Not mad at MA for not, not pretending to be smarter than MA.

But I have seen this done more than once when the pieces fall into place like today. I have seen it done your way most of the time in the same circumstances.

I liked our chances with around 8 possessions apiece to decide a game in this instance than a one done scenario where the other team wins at a higher rate than they do in the overtime scenario.

Ok...so...that's a lot to read. Here's the much simpler way to look at it...

They have no bigs left. They have stayed in this game solely on the 3 ball. There's one last shot, so it's painfully obvious that we need to guard the 3 (which we did very well btw).

They make a house highly contested 3, yes, they win. They miss the hard they contested 3, they lose, we win.

Or...we foul them and give them an almost guaranteed shot to extend the game. Yes, their big men were fouled out...but just tell me how good we were at getting him the ball all game. Tell me how they NEED an inside game to take a lead on us. It is absolutely not a guarantee that we win in overtime.

While we're conversing and you've admitted to seeing 1000s of these game where the coach could to send someone to the line when they're up by 2, please, just give me one.
Did they get you to trade a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage...?

HogBreath

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:11:35 pm
No chance for 3
Just a laughably bad idea you have here, Shadow.
I said...LSU has often been an overrated team.

That ignoramus Draconian Sanctions said..if we're overrated, why are we ranked higher than you are?

PORKULATOR

If we shoot @least 65%from the free throw line then we win easy.
Everytime I reach a goal or achieve something new in life, someone's beat me there and wrote f♡€% you all over it - JD Salinger
I've got a fever and the only perscription...  is more cowbell.- THE Bruce Dickenson.

b-ball coach

Seems like bad strategy, but I have done it and won multiple times. When a team has a great ball handling FT shooter (like Macon used to be) and your opponent has marginal to poor FT shooters that handle the ball. You scout, go over with your team, and be aware that you can use a little time and foul. They hit one of two, miss both or tie at worse case scenario. It stops the opponent from hitting a three to win (if they have great 3 pt shooters like Hannahs). It also gives you time to score if a bad FT shooter hits both (which never has happened to me).

Risky, yes, but well worth it if you scout and have poor FT shooting opponents. I'll give you an example, Hogs up two at Miss St 40 something seconds. Ado has the ball top of the key, he was something in the range of 1 of 5 that night at FT line, foul. We don't foul and they hit a 3... ballgame. He also got the ball on a offensive rebound, tie game, we let him stick it back and lose.

Gotta know your opponents, plan ahead and practice these situations, but it works. I am not saying tonight was a time to do it, it appeared Mizzou guards were automatic from FT line without knowing their %'s, but it can and has been effective for me- it's a math game. 

rzrbackramsfan

Quote from: b-ball coach on January 13, 2018, 09:26:49 pm
Seems like bad strategy, but I have done it and won multiple times. When a team has a great ball handling FT shooter (like Macon used to be) and your opponent has marginal to poor FT shooters that handle the ball. You scout, go over with your team, and be aware that you can use a little time and foul. They hit one of two, miss both or tie at worse case scenario. It stops the opponent from hitting a three to win (if they have great 3 pt shooters like Hannahs). It also gives you time to score if a bad ft shooter hits both (which never has happened to me).

Risky, yes, but well worth it if you scout have poor FT shooting opponents. I'll give you an example, Hogs up two at Miss St 40 something seconds. Ado has the ball top of the key, he was something in the range of 1 of 5 that night at FT line, foul. We don't fouland they hit a 3... ballgame. He also got the ball on a offensive rebound, tie game, we let him stick it back and lose.

Gotta know your opponents, plan ahead and practice these situations, but it works. I am not saying tonight was a time to do it, it appeared Mizzou guards were automatic from FT line without knowing their %'s, but it can and has been effective for me- it's a math game.

Kind of like this math game that uses actual math?

Quote from: rzrbackramsfan on January 13, 2018, 08:53:17 pm
Or they had a 40% chance to win on a three going that route vs fouling where, if we put a 75% free throw shooter at the line, they have 75% chance on the first throw, 75% chance on the second, 75% chance we don't score after their free throws, and they had probably a 35% chance of winning in OT. 

In the second scenario they had a 75% x 75% x 75% x 35% = 15% chance of winning. 

Get at me Nielsboars!

greenEGnHAWGS

Quote from: b-ball coach on January 13, 2018, 09:26:49 pm
Seems like bad strategy, but I have done it and won multiple times. When a team has a great ball handling FT shooter (like Macon used to be) and your opponent has marginal to poor FT shooters that handle the ball. You scout, go over with your team, and be aware that you can use a little time and foul. They hit one of two, miss both or tie at worse case scenario. It stops the opponent from hitting a three to win (if they have great 3 pt shooters like Hannahs). It also gives you time to score if a bad FT shooter hits both (which never has happened to me).

Risky, yes, but well worth it if you scout and have poor FT shooting opponents. I'll give you an example, Hogs up two at Miss St 40 something seconds. Ado has the ball top of the key, he was something in the range of 1 of 5 that night at FT line, foul. We don't foul and they hit a 3... ballgame. He also got the ball on a offensive rebound, tie game, we let him stick it back and lose.

Gotta know your opponents, plan ahead and practice these situations, but it works. I am not saying tonight was a time to do it, it appeared Mizzou guards were automatic from FT line without knowing their %'s, but it can and has been effective for me- it's a math game.

If the team has a well known, very bad FT shooter...MAYBE I'd concede that this is an ok idea. But the OP emphatically said this was needed for THIS game which everyone shot FTs well. It would've a horrible idea to tell the defense "You won't be able to stop thes guys from hitting a three, so we're going to just send it into overtime with a 2 point lead."
Did they get you to trade a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage...?

HOGINTENNESSEE

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:56:35 pm
Without going on the internet, tell me the names of the three refs from our last game. If you can't then they must have played the game without refs.

I can do this too.

Stupid counter. Maybe the worst I have ever seen.


sowmonella

Not trying to brag or make anyone jealous but I can still fit into the same pair of socks I wore in high school.
Proud member since August 2003

King Kong

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 07:56:35 pm
Without going on the internet, tell me the names of the three refs from our last game. If you can't then they must have played the game without refs.

I can do this too.

One of these things is not like the other

Dirty


Randohoggie

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 08:42:43 pm
Let's work through the inverse to understand the situation better.

Do road teams with their top two interior players already fouled out and only down two ever draw plays up for 3's? We just watched a game where that very thing happened. Happens frequently even without the fouled out big men.

The exact opposite of that is to force that team to do what they don't want to do, go to overtime at your place.

I wouldn't do this 1 out of 100 times if they have all their players but having watched and called easily over 1000 games in just the last decade I have seen this done just to control a team's destiny. Some coaches are serious about having the last possession to that degree.

This was a rare circumstance where it comes out giving you more favorable circumstances than in a routine situation.

First, you are conceding two makes. Why? You still get to choose who you foul.

Let's run down scenarios of them taking a 3 from a half court set. They miss, we win. They make we lose.

They get fouled shooting the 3. They can win by making 3 ft's, making two ft's rebound and putback on the 3rd. Make two and Rebound miss get fouled, make both ft's. Make two Rebound the miss and only make one ft. Miss all 3, rebound and make a 3. Rebound ft miss and get the putback and foul, convert.

You can also accidentally foul them late taking a two because they couldn't get a 3 and they convert both the shot and ft. They get two shots, make one Rebound the second get the putback. Putback and foul. Kick out to open shooter.

Now look at fouling them coming up the court.

It's just the the 2 shot ft scenarios. That's 3 losing scenarios.

Letting them run a half court set offers 9 ways to lose. You are not eleminating any of the 2 foul shot scenarios because of the double bonus.

9 losing scenarios with no shot attempt to win for your team compared to 3 scenarios that give you the opportunity to shoot for the win.

Furthermore, if you were offered a bet of Missouri at Fayetteville without their top 2 big guys and Gafford balling out, are you really putting money on the Tigers.

Fouling isn't an option most of the time. Not saying it is. Not mad at MA for not, not pretending to be smarter than MA.

But I have seen this done more than once when the pieces fall into place like today. I have seen it done your way most of the time in the same circumstances.

I liked our chances with around 8 possessions apiece to decide a game in this instance than a one done scenario where the other team wins at a higher rate than they do in the overtime scenario.

Yeah, you could tie your brain in knots like that, trying to make sense of a strategy that makes no sense, or you can just keep the ball out of the hands of their hot shooter and give them nothing but a contested, pressure 3 ... which is what we did.  Their chances on a shot like that are 25-30% at best.

ShadowHawg

Quote from: Randohoggie on January 13, 2018, 10:40:13 pm
Yeah, you could tie your brain in knots like that, trying to make sense of a strategy that makes no sense, or you can just keep the ball out of the hands of their hot shooter and give them nothing but a contested, pressure 3 ... which is what we did.  Their chances on a shot like that are 25-30% at best.

The chances in overtime are much closer to zero.

ShadowHawg

Quote from: King Kong on January 13, 2018, 09:42:04 pm
One of these things is not like the other

They are the same. I don't maintain a reference library of personal experiences any more than you do.

greenEGnHAWGS

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 11:22:40 pm
They are the same. I don't maintain a reference library of personal experiences any more than you do.

No offense, but you've claimed to have seen this 1000s of times just in the last decade. SURELY, you could come up with a couple of times a team up by 2 fouled the opposing team to assuredly send the game into overtime.

No. I know you're not a reference book, but for example, if some asked me what teams came back by 7 within 30 seconds, I'd be able to name a couple. Games do tend to stick with people, so I'd appreciate any effort in just showing 1 college coach who did this.
Did they get you to trade a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage...?

colbs

Quote from: b-ball coach on January 13, 2018, 09:26:49 pm
Seems like bad strategy, but I have done it and won multiple times. When a team has a great ball handling FT shooter (like Macon used to be) and your opponent has marginal to poor FT shooters that handle the ball. You scout, go over with your team, and be aware that you can use a little time and foul. They hit one of two, miss both or tie at worse case scenario. It stops the opponent from hitting a three to win (if they have great 3 pt shooters like Hannahs). It also gives you time to score if a bad FT shooter hits both (which never has happened to me).

Risky, yes, but well worth it if you scout and have poor FT shooting opponents. I'll give you an example, Hogs up two at Miss St 40 something seconds. Ado has the ball top of the key, he was something in the range of 1 of 5 that night at FT line, foul. We don't foul and they hit a 3... ballgame. He also got the ball on a offensive rebound, tie game, we let him stick it back and lose.

Gotta know your opponents, plan ahead and practice these situations, but it works. I am not saying tonight was a time to do it, it appeared Mizzou guards were automatic from FT line without knowing their %'s, but it can and has been effective for me- it's a math game. 
That would be a bad time to foul too.  Why would you try and foul when up 2, a team that had struggled hitting 3's all game, and still .40 left? 

The better play no doubt is playing it out.  The odds are in your favor.  Plus what happens if they make the first one and then get the rebound on the second?  Macon had 4 fouls and if he gets 5 who knows what happens.

Randohoggie

Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 11:14:21 pm
The chances in overtime are much closer to zero.

Yeah, you pulled that out of your ass.

SoCalHogFan

You don't foul bc that would give them a chance for a 3 or 4 pt play if by some chance it's a soft foul that still allows a shot off.

You guard the perimeter like its your life bc they were living at the 3 pt line and let them have the 2 pt bucket if they can make the shot. No aggressive moves, just "stay with your man" defense.

Hogs played that last shot well. We all knew missou was gonna go for a 3 at the end and not settle for a 2. They didn't want overtime and knew they were shooting the 3 ball well enough to chance it.
"To me, there are three things we all should do every day. We should do this every day of our lives. Number one is laugh. You should laugh every day. Number two is think. You should spend some time in thought. Number three is, you should have your emotions moved to tears, could be happiness or joy. But think about it. If you laugh, you think, and you cry, that's a full day. That's a heck of a day. You do that seven days a week, you're going to have something special." <br />  Jim Valvano 1993 ESPYs

TNhawgfan

Threads like this are why i love jumpball. People arguing the merits of one of the dumbest ideas I've ever read.
I'd rather be dead than be a Vol

King Kong

January 14, 2018, 08:12:28 am #46 Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 04:33:45 pm by King Kong
Quote from: ShadowHawg on January 13, 2018, 11:22:40 pm
They are the same. I don't maintain a reference library of personal experiences any more than you do.

The refs in a game are mentioned maybe twice a game. I couldn't name more than 2 ever. But players or coach or teams are mentioned for the entire game.

You can't recall a single one. Yet you say you have seen it multiple times. Name a coach or team.

I can't recall a name of ref as it is irrelevant. A specific bad call. Like FL vs Arkansas in Portis last season I can recall the teams and location of the game.

Dirty

This thread is stupid but Macon got fouled on the screen on that last possession but no call.

CDBHawg

You never foul only being up 2.

Teams have done this due to mental lapses, ie Vandy, and on accident.


I've never seen it done intentionally. I doubt any coac at te D1 level would last long if he practiced this.

greenEGnHAWGS

Quote from: TNhawgfan on January 14, 2018, 08:05:14 am
Threads like this are why i love jumpball. People arguing the merits of one of the dumbest ideas I've ever read.

Can't be that dumb of an idea if the OP has seen this tactic done "1000 times over the last decade"...
Did they get you to trade a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage...?