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The 1964 College Football Championship Debate.

Started by BartIV, August 28, 2012, 03:55:46 pm

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Who "Won" the 1964 College Football National Championship???

Alabama (10-1)
11 (4.1%)
Arkansas (11-0)
256 (94.8%)
Texas (10-1)
0 (0%)
Notre Dame (9-1)
1 (0.4%)
Michigan (9-1)
2 (0.7%)

Total Members Voted: 268

RollTideHog

The Arkansas Razorbacks were named national champion by the Football Writers Association of America.

AND


The Associated Press presented the AP Trophy to the Alabama Crimson Tide due to their 10-0-0 regular season record and their #1 finish in the AP poll.

so for all the dumb asses that don't understand --BOTH Arkansas and bama were national champion in 1964

See how simple it is....


nightshift

August 28, 2012, 10:20:28 pm #51 Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 10:47:51 pm by nightshift
Can you imagine what a playoff system would have done decades ago? Every National Champion would have been undisputed, and no debates on who is #1 and who deserves the rights to the national championship.

 

Root66

Quote from: redeye on August 28, 2012, 08:58:27 pm
College football rankings are subjective, so you can pick whoever you want. Although Michigan was great in the sixties, I think the Big Ten was overrated for many years, until the SEC began embarrassing it.

In actuality Michigan was NOT that GREAT during the 60s. Bump Elliott was Michigan's coach for most of that decade and Bump was at best, an average coach. His and Bo Schembechler's (only 1969) decade combined record  was 55-40-2 or .577.  Michigan State on the other hand under Duffy Daugherty was 59-34-3 or .630. Both were topped by Woody Hayes of Ohio State at 68-21-2 or .758. Bump Elliot happened to have his best Michigan team in 1964 when his record was 9-1 but as you mentioned, lost to Purdue AT THE BIG HOUSE. That was worse than Texas losing to us at home in 1964.


Root66

Quote from: uams1989 on August 28, 2012, 09:38:16 pm
I know it is a complete waste of time to do this, but...

It was the system at the time.  I believe bowls should matter, but, that was not how the system worked at the time.  The AP and UPI awarded their trophies to Alabama.  They sit in the Bryant Museum in Tuscaloosa.

So, if the NCAA decided to change the format for the Basketball format, you'd willfully agree that the Hog's championship was not valid?  You can argue that it was settled on the court and I completely agree, but, that was the system in 1996 (or whenever it was.)

I love how Arkansas fans take shots at Bama about all the championships Bama claims, and especially the ones that are not nationally recognized or were before the national wire services were established.  Yet, when Bama claims the 1964 national title...awarded by the AP and UPI, y'all become hypocritical and want to claim one of those "illegitimate" titles.  If the others are illegitimate for Bama, then, 1964 is illegitimate for Arkansas.

But y'all keep trying...the standards of college football championships sit in Tuscaloosa.

BTW, I have no problem with Arkansas claiming a split championship in 1964.  But don't be hypocritical and say Bama has no claim.

And for those of you that think the Hogs have a claim to 1977...Bama was the highest ranked team (at #3) that won their bowl game.  Notre Dame being named #1 was and is still a farce!

Yeah...N.D. is a farce in 1977 but Bama isn't a farce in 1964. What are you, a bama fan or sumptin? Arkansas beat the team that beat bama, who had the greatest QB in the history of the game...NOT. Get over it.

Root66

By the way, Frank Broyles couldn't even win the damn coach of the year honor in 1964 without sharing the award with that pissant Ara Parseghian....OF Notre Dammmmmme.

uams1989

Quote from: Root66 on August 28, 2012, 10:31:26 pm
Yeah...N.D. is a farce in 1977 but Bama isn't a farce in 1964. What are you, a bama fan or sumptin? Arkansas beat the team that beat bama, who had the greatest QB in the history of the game...NOT. Get over it.

I'm not the one who keeps bringing it up.  I don't have anything to get over.  The trophies are in Tuscaloosa.  I'll get you a picture next time I'm there.
"They got a name for the winners in the world...
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide..."

nightshift

August 28, 2012, 10:45:58 pm #56 Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 10:56:30 pm by nightshift
Came so close in 1965 to winning another NC.

nightshift

August 28, 2012, 10:57:49 pm #57 Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 10:59:35 pm by nightshift
Quote from: Root66 on August 28, 2012, 10:33:58 pm
By the way, Frank Broyles couldn't even win the damn coach of the year honor in 1964 without sharing the award with that pissant Ara Parseghian....OF Notre Dammmmmme.
Notre Dame didnt even play in any bowl games until 1969, they were special  :puke:
All Notre Dame had to do was show up on the sidelines and they were awarded something practically every year.

Danny J

August 28, 2012, 11:49:26 pm #58 Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 11:52:24 pm by Danny J (headhawg7)
Quote from: RollTideHog on August 28, 2012, 09:45:12 pm
The Arkansas Razorbacks were named national champion by the Football Writers Association of America.

AND


The Associated Press presented the AP Trophy to the Alabama Crimson Tide due to their 10-0-0 regular season record and their #1 finish in the AP poll.

so for all the dumb asses that don't understand --BOTH Arkansas and bama were national champion in 1964

See how simple it is....
Yes but all of us know who really is the national champion from 1964 and I sure as hell know it is NOT A FREAKING TEAM THAT LOST THE LAST GAME OF THE YEAR!!!! LMAO!!!! Who [CENSORED] gives a shite what the [CENSORED] AP has to say on the matter. Bama lost and not only that they lost to the same team we beat. I( am tired of listening to the excuses.

"well the AP said we(bama) was the champions so I guess that makes it so"

I don't care to use a rigged system that it was back then. We know now who the real national champions are/were and it sure as hell ain't alabama. They couldn't even beat texas.

/debate

Albert Einswine

Quote from: NolanForAD on August 29, 2012, 05:38:09 am
No sir.  Just like every other year in major college football, there was NO CHAMPION in 1964.   Had you said both Alabama and Arkansas were AWARDED National Championships you would be correct.  Saying they were BOTH the 'Champion' illustrates my point.   When was the last time there were TWO champions in basketball?  lol

Being VOTED the best team will never carry weight with me.  Without a means of winning it on the field, you simply can't be called a 'champion.'    The best we can do is to look at a season and see how things played out.  If there was only one undefeated team which played a real schedule, then calling some other team 'champion' is absurd.   The way things are, Arkansas can say it was 'champion' with as much certainty as ANY team in history.  Alabama can NOT.  Alabama can only point out that it was AWARDED a championship by mistake.


It was simply a case of premature acclamation.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

jesterzzn

Quote from: uams1989 on August 28, 2012, 10:45:21 pm
I'm not the one who keeps bringing it up.  I don't have anything to get over.  The trophies are in Tuscaloosa.  I'll get you a picture next time I'm there.

It takes a special kind of arrogance to display trophies everyone with half a wit of sense know you didn't earn. Especially with the result of your unearned trophies was the awarding bodies changed the rules the following year to prevent such idiocy from happening again. 

But to be a sarcastic pinhead about it?

**** you.  Yep, that about sums it up.

hogfan58

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on August 28, 2012, 09:42:11 pm
But we were not screwed out of a NC  in 64. We have a trophy in our trophy that says we won it.

We have A trophy; we don't THE trophy that most of college football recognizes.
I'm asking you as fans, don't give up on those players, don't give up on us, it's our program, it's the state of Alabama program...it's not one individuals program, so hang in there...

Albert Einswine

Quote from: NolanForAD on August 29, 2012, 07:37:34 am
Are you completely deranged?   Ask ANY college football fan to name a specific champion prior to 1980.   9 out of 10 will say Arkansas 64.    Its got to be mentioned 100 times more than any other 'championship' in history.   You think the AP trophy being in Alabama makes a wit of difference?   No one, NO ONE thinks Alabama won 1964, not even Alabama.

I don't mind Bama having and claiming the AP and UPI titles because they have them right there in their trophy case.

We know the Razorbacks are the '64 National Champions.  We know Bama lost to the Texas team we beat.

We know their record wrapped at 10-1 and ours at 11-0.

We know who the undefeated '64 National Champions are.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

 

DeltaBoy

IMO we are the 1964 and 1977 NC and Bama can kiss my 6.
If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: hogfan58 on August 29, 2012, 06:30:11 am
We have A trophy; we don't THE trophy that most of college football recognizes.

Wrong again. SEVERAL trophy's and polls were recognized by most at that time and even afterwards up until about the start of the BCS. Why do you think there was ALWAYS an argument over who the REAL champion was.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

Boston RedHogs

Essentially, two years in a row the Razorbacks fell on the wrong side of the "rule" at that time if you go by the AP.

1964 - AP votes on Nat'l Champ BEFORE Bowl games.  AP tabs Bama Champ prior to Bowl Games.  Bama loses their Bowl game and the Hogs win theirs.  We finish undefeated and the FWA award us the Nat'l Champ AFTER Bowl games.

1965 - AP votes on Nat'l Champ AFTER Bowl games.  Arkansas goes into the Bowl game undefeated and would have been named Nat'l Champ by 1964 standards.  However, the Hogs lose the Bowl game and we're not named Nat'l Champ by the AP.


By '65 standards, we won in '64.  By '64 standards, we won in '65.  As per usual, my Hogs can't catch a break with a bull in a china closet!!  However, the rules were the way they were and we don't have the full on rights to claim a Champ in either year.

That said, by Bama standards (which is a loose interpretation of Nat'l Champ when convenient for them to add one to their total), we should at least claim '64, '65, & '77 IMVHO.

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: RollTideHog on August 28, 2012, 09:45:12 pm
The Arkansas Razorbacks were named national champion by the Football Writers Association of America.

AND


The Associated Press presented the AP Trophy to the Alabama Crimson Tide due to their 10-0-0 regular season record and their #1 finish in the AP poll.

so for all the dumb asses that don't understand --BOTH Arkansas and bama were national champion in 1964

See how simple it is....



You might have more luck with some of these folks if you made National Championship tropheys for 1909, 64', 65', and 77' and had the Alabama AD present them on the 50 yard line to Jeff Long with a bottle of whiskey and a hat that has an Arkansas A on it and  4 time National Champions written on it after we kick yall's collective a$$es this year, and Immediately after we play Oh Lord It's Hard to Be Humble you have your band play Rammer Jammer and Let us tell you that We just beat the hell outta You! Ramma Jamma Wussy Hamma  Go To Hell Alabama!!!  Then and only then would these folks get over it. Well, probably not.
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

Johnny America

Some people still claim that USC split the national title with LSU in 2003. This was even after we brought in the BCS to determine a champion. People will always believe in crazy stuff. Just have to walk away from them.
God is not real.

Pig in the Pokey

You must be on one if you think i aint on one! ¥420¥   «roastin da bomb in fayettenam» Purspirit Gang

hogfan58

Quote from: NolanForAD on August 29, 2012, 07:37:34 am
Are you completely deranged?   Ask ANY college football fan to name a specific champion prior to 1980.   9 out of 10 will say Arkansas 64.    Its got to be mentioned 100 times more than any other 'championship' in history.   You think the AP trophy being in Alabama makes a wit of difference?   No one, NO ONE thinks Alabama won 1964, not even Alabama.

No, I'm not. But what organization is more recognized? I do believe we were and are the NC of 1964, but I think that outside of Arkansas, if you asked that question, the vast majority of college football fans would say Alabama, based upon it being "given" to them by AP/UPI and them always including it in their 7 or 9 or however many they have/claim. Other than the year we got ours, did that organization ever declare a NC or was it a one-shot deal?

Again, don't get me wrong....we were the best team in the country that year, no question and in 1965. No doubt in my mind that WE were the NC in 1964.
I'm asking you as fans, don't give up on those players, don't give up on us, it's our program, it's the state of Alabama program...it's not one individuals program, so hang in there...

Johnny America

Quote from: hogfan58 on August 29, 2012, 08:37:42 am
No, I'm not. But what organization is more recognized? I do believe we were and are the NC of 1964, but I think that outside of Arkansas, if you asked that question, the vast majority of college football fans would say Alabama, based upon it being "given" to them by AP/UPI and them always including it in their 7 or 9 or however many they have/claim. Other than the year we got ours, did that organization ever declare a NC or was it a one-shot deal?

Again, don't get me wrong....we were the best team in the country that year, no question and in 1965. No doubt in my mind that WE were the NC in 1964.

If you asked the vast majority of college football fans they would have to google who won the 1964 title. I know about this issue, obviously, because I am an Arkansas fan. Most people would have no idea though.
God is not real.

nightshift

August 29, 2012, 09:02:26 am #71 Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 09:21:59 am by nightshift
Quote from: NolanForAD on August 29, 2012, 07:37:34 am
Are you completely deranged?   Ask ANY college football fan to name a specific champion prior to 1980.   9 out of 10 will say Arkansas 64.    Its got to be mentioned 100 times more than any other 'championship' in history.   You think the AP trophy being in Alabama makes a wit of difference?   No one, NO ONE thinks Alabama won 1964, not even Alabama.

I think the the '64 Alabama trophy should read Runner-Up NC, because to lose a bowl game and be marked as Co-NC is absured and totally unfair to other teams that won there bowl games and especially undefeated ones at #2 in my opinion.In other words Alabama would win the NC whether they lose or not, thats like Notre Dame not playing bowl games and still being granted national championships for playing the regular season. Im so glad those days are over! I never could comprehend how the NCAA could allow voters to vote the national championship to a team before  the bowls games and then again after the bowl games. That is so messed up!  ::)

EastexHawg

Quote from: BartIV on August 28, 2012, 04:46:28 pm
I am still liking the Wolverines for the Championship after reading this.

You "like" a Michigan team that lost a game to Purdue over an Arkansas team that beat everyone on their schedule, including #1 Texas and #6 Nebraska?

I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, illogical and contrarian as it may be.

Albert Einswine

Quote from: EastexHawg on August 29, 2012, 09:23:27 am
You "like" a Michigan team that lost a game to Purdue over an Arkansas team that beat everyone on their schedule, including #1 Texas and #6 Nebraska?

I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, illogical and contrarian as it may be.


I asked him if he had familial ties to Michigan but never got an answer.  I can't think of any other reasonable explanation.
"Funny thing, I become a hell of a good fisherman when the trout decide to commit suicide." ~ John D. Voelker

 

HG

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on August 29, 2012, 08:24:39 am
Wrong again. SEVERAL trophy's and polls were recognized by most at that time and even afterwards up until about the start of the BCS. Why do you think there was ALWAYS an argument over who the REAL champion was.

The main problem is prestige for the proverbial "man on the street."  The AP and UPI polls were king.  The FWA poll is recognized by a lot of hardcore fans who know the game, but doesn't have the same cachet in the public consciousness.  Then we have all those faux retroactive titles applied to seasons before the AP poll started in the mid-30s, the very ones we deride programs like Bama and ND for claiming.  We can argue until we're blue in the face, but the we're handicapped by the perception issue.  It's like convincing someone that the CBS Sportsline poll's winner is just as important as the BCS poll winner.  They may acknowledge the unfairness, but they'll still likely go with the Big Name Poll.  :-\

uams1989

Quote from: HG on August 28, 2012, 09:36:49 pm
If the question is who "won" the title, then we did.  If the question is who actually won it, then Bama did.  It's not one of their mythical ones (except insofar as all titles are mythical without a playoff) because the polls did award it to them.  It's not fair, but that's how it goes.  We can still claim to have deserved the title that year, thanks to beating Texas.  I'm not one of those that thinks any undefeated team is automatically better than any team with a loss, since that's clearly not been the case in certain years.  But beating Texas bolsters our claim pretty nicely.

HG, good post.  I agree with everything you said.  Without a better system, this is what we were left with.

I will be the first to say that IF the system had been to wait until after the bowls, then, the Hogs should have and would have had the AP, UPI, and FWAA awards, but, that's not how it was and not what happened.
"They got a name for the winners in the world...
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide..."

Count De Money

I well remember the game between Texas and Alabama.  It was one of the few games that "The Bear" really screwed up with play calling.  Trying to QB sneak on Texas was the most stupid thing to try.  Texas' defensive line was probably the best at stopping the run.  I remember laughing each time Bama tried to power it in for a touchdown and everytime, Texas stopped them.

BartIV

Quote from: EastexHawg on August 29, 2012, 09:23:27 am
You "like" a Michigan team that lost a game to Purdue over an Arkansas team that beat everyone on their schedule, including #1 Texas and #6 Nebraska?

I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, illogical and contrarian as it may be.
I just like Michigans schedule over Arkansas's. Michigan had a tougher schedule. I am a Arkansas fan, lived here my whole life and if yall want them to have a national championship in 1964 then I will say they have it. I don't care either way. 3 or 4 different teams claim 64 anyway, I just liked michigan a little better.

Root66

August 29, 2012, 11:42:06 am #78 Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 11:50:21 am by Root66
Quote from: uams1989 on August 28, 2012, 10:45:21 pm
I'm not the one who keeps bringing it up.  I don't have anything to get over.  The trophies are in Tuscaloosa.  I'll get you a picture next time I'm there.

I have no reason to look at a picture of two meaningless  trophies. The real one is in Fayetteville, Arkansas. And I already have a picture of it. By the way, the fact that the AP and UPI even CHANGED THEIR POLLS to include the bowl games after the 1965 season should tell you how meaningless those two trophies are. ;)




Hog Fan...DOH!

Quote from: NolanForAD on August 28, 2012, 04:11:55 pm
There is no honest argument here.  Bama should remove 1964 from its claims of NC's.  At this point it only makes them look ridiculous and diminishes their other claims.

Along with about 7 other "titles". 

EastexHawg

Quote from: BartIV on August 29, 2012, 11:07:04 am
I just like Michigans schedule over Arkansas's. Michigan had a tougher schedule. I am a Arkansas fan, lived here my whole life and if yall want them to have a national championship in 1964 then I will say they have it. I don't care either way. 3 or 4 different teams claim 64 anyway, I just liked michigan a little better.

This is the incredible Michigan schedule you favor over undefeated Arkansas beating 9-2 Tulsa, 10-1 Texas, and 9-2 Nebraska?

MICHIGAN 1964
9/26 vs. Air Force (4-5-1) W 24 7
10/3 vs. Navy (3-6-1) W 21 0
10/10 @ *Michigan State (4-5) W 17 10
10/17 vs. *Purdue (6-3) L 20 21
10/24 vs. *Minnesota (5-4) W 19 12
10/31 vs. *Northwestern (3-6) W 35 0
11/7 vs. *Illinois (6-3) W 21 6
11/14 @ *Iowa (3-6) W 34 20
11/21 @ *Ohio State (7-2) W 10 0
1/1 vs. Oregon State (8-3) W 34 7 @ Pasadena, CA Rose Bowl
 

cosmodrum

Quote from: EastexHawg on August 29, 2012, 11:50:35 am
This is the incredible Michigan schedule you favor over undefeated Arkansas beating 9-2 Tulsa, 10-1 Texas, and 9-2 Nebraska?

MICHIGAN 1964
9/26 vs. Air Force (4-5-1) W 24 7
10/3 vs. Navy (3-6-1) W 21 0
10/10 @ *Michigan State (4-5) W 17 10
10/17 vs. *Purdue (6-3) L 20 21
10/24 vs. *Minnesota (5-4) W 19 12
10/31 vs. *Northwestern (3-6) W 35 0
11/7 vs. *Illinois (6-3) W 21 6
11/14 @ *Iowa (3-6) W 34 20
11/21 @ *Ohio State (7-2) W 10 0
1/1 vs. Oregon State (8-3) W 34 7 @ Pasadena, CA Rose Bowl
 

No he doesn't. He thinks he's being clever with his weak troll attempt.

NO ONE in their right mind, even Michigan fans, could make this argument. The reason it seems stupid is because it is.
Go away, batin'