Cessna 182L - my bird

[gotyacovered]

ok boys... i have a deal i am putting together with a lot of moving parts. IF i can get all the parts moving in one direction i am upgrading.

i have not and wont, just yet, list mine. at this point i will probably work mine through the dealer *but* thru some networking would be interested in selling it out right--timing would have to be absolutley perfect. if any of you run across someone interested in a 182 with nice paint, 2500 hours TT, outdated electronics and a tired engine, please put us in contact.

i have personally flown this airplane just under 300 hours since 9/2/11. great, straight flying airplane.

1968 Cessna 182 N42653
TT - 2554.44
TSMOH - 1529.11
TSTOH - 631.98
Annual due 7/2014
compression as of last oil change (7/31/13) - 72/62/62/64/65 /80; burning 1 quart of oil every 6 hours. 

IFR Cert dual KN-165's with dual VOR's, one with GS, KN-64, DME, dual PTT, 4 place intercom, garmin 696 (maybe not for sale), rubber floor mat, etc.

this is a very solid airplane and if the deal falls through i am going to pponk it and upgrade avionics, you will not find a better airframe for upgrades to build it how you want it. a flight school or something like that would be a great prospect. the paint is in great shape, the interior--not so much. its mostly original. my biggest problem with it... no auto pilot.

the annual before last was painful but got quite a few new components, mainly a new exhaust system and this year i added a spin off oil filter. i am sure there are a few things i am forgetting.

[GusMcRae]

I gotta ask, what are you getting?

[gotyacovered]

I gotta ask, what are you getting?

:Hopefully: 206H (2003)

King nav 2 package, not quite g1000 but its pimped out.

[bvillepig]

I hope it works out. Very good airplane.

[GusMcRae]

:Hopefully: 206H (2003)

King nav 2 package, not quite g1000 but its pimped out.

That would be awesome!  I hope it works out for you as well. 
Is it one that came from the pipeline outfit that PapaGotya works for?  What kind of TT and ET does it have? 
Totally understand if you'd rather wait to share the details. 
I just get all giddy when someone in my circle is about to trade up, upgrade avionics,  interior, or paint. 

[gotyacovered]

Yes, Gus it is. It has around 5500 total and less than 100 SNEW on a factory Lycoming I0-540. It is their last of the 206s, and has been there back up for the last two years. I did find out this weekend, that is the only one they've ever had that does not have air conditioning... Little disappointed about that. Oddly enough one of the potential non-pilot partners has already said air-conditioning is a big deal...

[GusMcRae]

Well I hope it's not a deal breaker.  You can always add an a/c.  I'll be anxious to hear how it goes, see some pics, and all that.
35 years newer, +2 seats, 60+? hp with only 100 hrs since new, AP,,,,, pretty significant upgrade.  I'm excited for you about the possibilities of it working out.

[gotyacovered]

So far it's been an emotional roller coaster. I have moments where I think that I've got it worked out and then somebody will start having second thoughts. We have also had significant trouble trying to work out the non-pilot owners, contractually. It seems this is gonna be a hurdle much bigger than the AC. Also complicating matters is dad's company is not selling it out right and the dealer already all ready has taken possession of the plane... And it's in Canada. I did find it interesting they were not even interested in a trade until they found out the low total time on my 182 , worth mentioning.

[GusMcRae]

So far it's been an emotional roller coaster. I have moments where I think that I've got it worked out and then somebody will start having second thoughts. We have also had significant trouble trying to work out the non-pilot owners, contractually. It seems this is gonna be a hurdle much bigger than the AC. Also complicating matters is dad's company is not selling it out right and the dealer already all ready has taken possession of the plane... And it's in Canada. I did find it interesting they were not even interested in a trade until they found out the low total time on my 182 , worth mentioning.

I know there are advantages and disadvantages to going through a dealer, but it sure seemed like the pipeline company was willing to let that 2005 model go for a bargain price back last year or whenever that was.  Asking $180K, and similar planes were listed for almost twice that on TAP and Controller.  That doesn't mean they sold for that much though.  Hope the dealer is not jacking the price up too bad. 
Maybe it will all work out, but if not, it wasn't meant to be. 

[gotyacovered]

I know there are advantages and disadvantages to going through a dealer, but it sure seemed like the pipeline company was willing to let that 2005 model go for a bargain price back last year or whenever that was.  Asking $180K, and similar planes were listed for almost twice that on TAP and Controller.  That doesn't mean they sold for that much though.  Hope the dealer is not jacking the price up too bad. 
Maybe it will all work out, but if not, it wasn't meant to be. 

dont forget that 05 had a gear collapse sitting in the hangar. had to go back to the factory and get checked out and re-rigged. $50k. anyways, it had a little blemish in the logs. a company like this always takes the path of least resistance. trading it in was the easy thing to do...

i had the same attitude up to the day i posted it on here... but got some news that day that convinced me it was going to work out. since posting on here its been nothing but negatives.

i am playing golf with a potential partner today and it no doubt will be a topic of discussion, so we will see. this same guy leased 20 hours in a king air two years and didnt read the fine print... after the first 11-12 hours he got the fuel bill--didnt even know he was going to get one. needless to say he didnt buy another 20. since then he has flown in a 172, baron and a chieftain. he likes the light twins but doesnt have an opportunity to buy into one, its all dry leases. as you all probably know there is much less legal work involved for owners than open ended non-exclusive dry leases.

[GusMcRae]

i am playing golf with a potential partner today and it no doubt will be a topic of discussion, so we will see. this same guy leased 20 hours in a king air two years and didnt read the fine print... after the first 11-12 hours he got the fuel bill--didnt even know he was going to get one. needless to say he didnt buy another 20. since then he has flown in a 172, baron and a chieftain. he likes the light twins but doesnt have an opportunity to buy into one, its all dry leases. as you all probably know there is much less legal work involved for owners than open ended non-exclusive dry leases.

Do the potential non-pilot partners have their own pilots to fly them when needed, do they just get whomever, or is that something you could possibly do for them eventually after obtaining instrument and commercial tickets?   

[gotyacovered]

Do the potential non-pilot partners have their own pilots to fly them when needed, do they just get whomever, or is that something you could possibly do for them eventually after obtaining instrument and commercial tickets?   

haha, well thats another story entirely. we have a pilot arranged (not in writing yet) to trade time (in the 206, dry) to fly it--he has is a CFII/ATP/Commercial. we believe that i or one of the certificated owners pilots could also fly it for the non-certificated owners, at no charge of course. but i haven't really fully read up on that.

[GusMcRae]

ok boys... i have a deal i am putting together with a lot of moving parts

You weren't kidding when you said this. 

[gotyacovered]

You weren't kidding when you said this. 

nope, so stressful. i get one problem/issued resolved and another shows up.

reminds me of that weezil game my kids used to play at chuckie cheese... the weezil pops it head up, you it it with a hammer and another pops up... pretty soon you have a hammer in each hand and its still not enough.

[GusMcRae]

i am playing golf with a potential partner today and it no doubt will be a topic of discussion, so we will see.

Learn anything or any progress made?

[gotyacovered]

Learn anything or any progress made?

Yep, too many rich people involved. Don't see any way to please everyone. Won some money, though!

[GusMcRae]

Yep, too many rich people involved. Don't see any way to please everyone. Won some money, though!

Haha!  Well, you got that going for ya.  Which is nice. 

[gotyacovered]

Haha!  Well, you got that going for ya.  Which is nice. 

yep.

this has been eye opening, on multiple fronts.

i have been sitting on this info for about 3 weeks. i go public by posting about it on here and everything goes haywire. still not dead but i honestly dont know if i want to co-own with non-pilots. faa trouble waiting to happen.

[GusMcRae]

yep.

this has been eye opening, on multiple fronts.

i have been sitting on this info for about 3 weeks. i go public by posting about it on here and everything goes haywire. still not dead but i honestly dont know if i want to co-own with non-pilots. faa trouble waiting to happen.

Any way to ditch the rich? Proceed with like minded pilot partners on the 206?
If not, let the pponk-ing begin.
Or look for another opportunity with like-minded pilot partners to trade your bird in for a low time Cherokee 6-300 with a more modern stack and ap.  They're cheap compared to a 206 with similar performance and useful load.
If you pponk N42653, you need to upgrade your stack and interior and keep her, a long time, IMO.
If you're definitely going to a 6 place in the near future, might be hard to recover what you'll spend on the pponk with a not so modern stack. 
It's hard to figure out which is the best route to go.

[Hankweb]

Where are you planning on basing the plane gotya? Hope?

[Pistol Pete]

I have a head ache just reading this
I feel your pain, seems like you start flying in circles, over and over again.

Heck, I'd consider keeping the 182 for family trips, and buying a M201J for business, 30kts faster, 3-4 gph less. A 206 seems expensive in all areas (except the landing gear), for the speed...

However, in the long run, a Bonanza looks more attractive for potential non-pilot investors. You'd get the payload, speed, avionics (depending), and, I'd think good resale when done. I've flown in my friends A36 a few thousand miles... it's so darn nice.

Circles... an honor to add to the confusion

[gotyacovered]

Where are you planning on basing the plane gotya? Hope?

Yes... Hope muni (M18)

[GusMcRae]

http://realcostofownership.blogspot.com/2013/08/finances-with-wolves.html

Interesting article in regard to buying from a guy with a similar situation.

[RNC]

Any way to ditch the rich? Proceed with like minded pilot partners on the 206?
If not, let the pponk-ing begin.
Or look for another opportunity with like-minded pilot partners to trade your bird in for a low time Cherokee 6-300 with a more modern stack and ap.  They're cheap compared to a 206 with similar performance and useful load.
If you pponk N42653, you need to upgrade your stack and interior and keep her, a long time, IMO.
If you're definitely going to a 6 place in the near future, might be hard to recover what you'll spend on the pponk with a not so modern stack. 
It's hard to figure out which is the best route to go.

I would agree on the six.  Older ones without modern conveniences haul more than their own weight (1650+ useful vs 1600 empty). 

Only downside is that stupid belly sump you have to check on the preflight.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/PIPER-CHEROKEE-6-300/1979-PIPER-CHEROKEE-6-300/1272927.htm

[Hankweb]

Yes... Hope muni (M18)

Just sold my A36 and will be looking....likely for some type of partnership or front end fee + hourly lease arrangement. Can use an acquaintance's 182 for a dry lease fee in the mean time but not certain I'll be satisfied with speed and lack of ability to carry 5 or 6 but should serve the bulk of my use with me alone or with one other.

[gotyacovered]

I have a head ache just reading this
I feel your pain, seems like you start flying in circles, over and over again.

Heck, I'd consider keeping the 182 for family trips, and buying a M201J for business, 30kts faster, 3-4 gph less. A 206 seems expensive in all areas (except the landing gear), for the speed...

However, in the long run, a Bonanza looks more attractive for potential non-pilot investors. You'd get the payload, speed, avionics (depending), and, I'd think good resale when done. I've flown in my friends A36 a few thousand miles... it's so darn nice.

Circles... an honor to add to the confusion

6 pax complex no IR isn't an option--for me. 206 is less than double ins cost and mx cost are very similar, as are ops cost. Not a huge increase in $$$, not a huge increase in speed--there's my trade off.

You can almost add a zero on the end of my current insurance premium for an A36, with my current time 300TT/5 complex (dual) and ratings... Or lack there of... I'm currently paying $699. Add in non-owner pilots and it gets worse with limit requirements due to waivers of subrogation, AI's, etc

[gotyacovered]

Just sold my A36 and will be looking....likely for some type of partnership or front end fee + hourly lease arrangement. Can use an acquaintance's 182 for a dry lease fee in the mean time but not certain I'll be satisfied with speed and lack of ability to carry 5 or 6 but should serve the bulk of my use with me alone or with one other.

Where are you located? PM is fine...

[gotyacovered]

I would agree on the six.  Older ones without modern conveniences haul more than their own weight (1650+ useful vs 1600 empty). 

Only downside is that stupid belly sump you have to check on the preflight.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/PIPER-CHEROKEE-6-300/1979-PIPER-CHEROKEE-6-300/1272927.htm

I love a 6... A 'toga even mo'

[Hankweb]

Where are you located? PM is fine...

LIT

[gotyacovered]

LIT

need to get you, me and my pops onto something...

[Hankweb]

I'm very flattered and honored that you would mention that gotya. Reading your many posts I get the sense that our flying styles, priorities, and sense of what is important is very similar. Reading about your father....I'm first of all jealous of his job!...but mostly very respectful of his advice and experience. Think it'd be an easy and very good partnership...
Timing right now may not be the best for me though. Considering a move west to finish out the last 15-18 years of my working life and until I get that figured out hesitant to make any big moves plane wise. With sons in college 150 miles north and 350 mlies southeast and a daughter 650 miles west I'm very tempted though!

[john c]

Gotya, did you post what your typical trip was, distance, baggage, people, type airports?  Worst thing I ever did was sell my dressed up 182Q and buy a Seneca that I upgraded.  The Six is the Suburban of the air and with all speed mods is only minutes behind an A36 on shorter trips.  If I wanted a 300-500 miler for 3-4 a 182 with run out engine switching to the diesel with simple controls and flat panel, sound deadening, speed mods, etc. would really be tempting.

[gotyacovered]

Gotya, did you post what your typical trip was, distance, baggage, people, type airports?  Worst thing I ever did was sell my dressed up 182Q and buy a Seneca that I upgraded.  The Six is the Suburban of the air and with all speed mods is only minutes behind an A36 on shorter trips.  If I wanted a 300-500 miler for 3-4 a 182 with run out engine switching to the diesel with simple controls and flat panel, sound deadening, speed mods, etc. would really be tempting.

Typically 2 adults, 2 kids or 4 adults. 180 of my 300 hours is XC. That includes my first 80 hours obtaining my PPL. I don't just bore holes in the sky anymore. I am either going somewhere or proficiency training.

Lots of 1 hour trips, KLIT, KHOT, KFYV, KROG, 4AR2, KCCA  Etc. I go to all Conference hog games, my parents live in Cabot, so I will drop the kids off every so often. usually will be grossed out as I am almost always topped off (84gals) and my wife/kids are spoiled.

I take 3-5 300+ nm trips (KJKA, KRTM, KMHN, KGBD, KPDK, M83, to name the most recent trips) annually and would like that to increase.

90% of the time I take off at gross, or over with fuel burn bringing me within landing weight. I am a freak about my WnB. In training my dad loaded up the plane with max CG aft limits so i could feel how yucky the plane felt WITHIN CG limits, it was a great lesson and one that forever impacted the way I load and the weight carried. On my trips to Florida and New Mexico skiing--I fed ex our clothes. It's actually gotten addicting, nice to show up and your bags be waiting on you;D

I would love to upgrade my current plane, I have a excellent airframe to do so, but just can't get past the financial aspect of it.

-Diesel conversion is at least $45k, prolly more; pponk $30k.
-need new GPS-W, audio panel, engine monitor... Another $25k
-badly need interior make over, $5k if I go cheap
-I currently have no auto pilot

And the hardest of all... Talking my partner into any (let alone all) of the above when he is flying 12 hours to my 300.

I think a 206 would fit me perfectly, the hardest part will be trying to resist the higher/faster temptation a couple years down the road. That extra 5-600lbs would be great, as would the extra 15-20kts.

I have a conference call set up for tomorrow with the Canadian dealer who is in possession of said 206, I will find out if I have a workable deal, or not.

I would LOVE a Seneca...

[GusMcRae]

Typically 2 adults, 2 kids or 4 adults. 180 of my 300 hours is XC. That includes my first 80 hours obtaining my PPL. I don't just bore holes in the sky anymore. I am either going somewhere or proficiency training.

Lots of 1 hour trips, KLIT, KHOT, KFYV, KROG, 4AR2, KCCA  Etc. I go to all Conference hog games, my parents live in Cabot, so I will drop the kids off every so often. usually will be grossed out as I am almost always topped off (84gals) and my wife/kids are spoiled.

I take 3-5 300+ nm trips (KJKA, KRTM, KMHN, KGBD, KPDK, M83, to name the most recent trips) annually and would like that to increase.

I think a 206 would fit me perfectly, the hardest part will be trying to resist the higher/faster temptation a couple years down the road. That extra 5-600lbs would be great, as would the extra 15-20kts.

I have a conference call set up for tomorrow with the Canadian dealer who is in possession of said 206, I will find out if I have a workable deal, or not.

Hope the conf call is productive. 

I'm getting bored with the speed of my C182. 
For the most part, it has enough useful load.  I can back off on fuel and get by, and do this particularly when it is hot summertime.  I have a few trips a year when I would use up the useful in a 206.

[gotyacovered]

Hope the conf call is productive. 

I'm getting bored with the speed of my C182. 
For the most part, it has enough useful load.  I can back off on fuel and get by, and do this particularly when it is hot summertime.  I have a few trips a year when I would use up the useful in a 206.

its kind of come down to the want vs need for me, with a significant consideration for maintenance cost as well. i cannot imagine a better plane for me... next on the list would be a non-P C210, then a 'toga, then a light twin.

[gotyacovered]

things are progressing. the broker who is in possession of the plane is having a critical family illness to deal with so its dead for a few days. one correction: the dealer is not actually in canada, he is in idaho. makes some of the aquisition logistics a lot easier. i would say there is a 60% chance that this deal will work.

[GusMcRae]

things are progressing. the broker who is in possession of the plane is having a critical family illness to deal with so its dead for a few days. one correction: the dealer is not actually in canada, he is in idaho. makes some of the aquisition logistics a lot easier. i would say there is a 60% chance that this deal will work.

Will your current 182 partner be in on this deal as well? 
Hope the scales keep tipping towards 100%.

[john c]

Nice article in this month's AOPA on A36 vs Six vs 206

[GusMcRae]

I read most of that article last night.  That Cherokee Six really has my attention if I were seriously considering an upgrade.
However, there's a guy here that has a Cessna P210, a straight tail 182, and a Cherokee 140,,,, none of which get flown much at all.  I would guess <20 hours a year on any one of the 3, and maybe less than 10 hours on the P210.  I quizzed a guy that is closely associated (business partner some kind of way, but not a partner on the airplane) with the owner on what the chances were of a guy like me renting that 210 once or twice a year when I need more useful load than what my 182 offers.  He was drinking, but his answer was "you wouldn't have to rent it,,, just come get it".  So, I may test the water on that farily soon by asking them if my CFI and I can come get it to get my complex endorsement, and be ready to take it to South Texas in January. 

*Upon further research of this P210, sounds like it has its share of problems with the engine and the gear.  It's been sitting in a hangar for about 3 years without moving.  Plus, my CFI said that since it's pressurized, I couldn't get insurance on it unless I was Instrument rated, and it's almost like they want you to go through a school to fly the darn thing.  So scratch all that.

[Pistol Pete]

I flew in a 210 about 15 years ago and there were several things I distinctly remember about that flight... we were going from LIT to FYV, the radio went out just after take off, we landed at RUE to get that fixed.

About the airplane, it sounded like a top fuel dragster. Was very strong on take off... but the landing was what stuck in my mind. he worked the trim wheel like crazy. Approach seemed like we were at a nose-up attitude, continued to work the trim wheel the slower we got. Evidently, it's extremely nose heavy. It was the first time I've ever been in an airplane that didn't "glide" in on final, you pulled it in with the prop.

[GusMcRae]

Nice article in this month's AOPA on A36 vs Six vs 206

I read the entire article last night.  Very good write up.  I particularly liked the way they geared it towards those of us that would be looking for the best bang for buck in the used market.  I've seen other articles geared towards the very same topic of upgrading to a 6-place plane, and all they did was list what was available new, which completely leaves most of us out of consideration.  To me, the Six looks like the best value for those needing the most room and useful load.  The Bonanzas look to be the classiest and the fastest.  The Cessna 206 is somewhere in the middle of these, a fair amount of trade off for speed when up against the Bo, and maybe a little less room in the back seats when compared to the Six, but definitely competitive with both and desireable by some of us who take comfort in Cessna's seemingly stable future, as well as those of us transitioning from a smaller Cessna high wing. 

[john c]

I always put considerable stock in what trusted mechanics said.  Also, I would look at the various mods available, especially Lopresti on the Pipers.  When it comes down to it, there isn't that much difference in the speed, usually measured in a few minutes and ATC or a mid trip stop can have a big impact.  So many things other than speed make for a comfortable flight - good radios, simplicity of controls, good radios, space, good radios, noise, landing with the gear down all the time, putting your feet up if you're in the back seat.  My family of four liked the comfort of the twin engine Six more than our 182.  I've always heard there is one person who is always very happy you have a 210 and more so if it is a P210 - the local mechanic.  That may just be hangar talk.  Or not.  Well, I won't be owning it, you may say.  Yeah, but you will be putting your family in it.  How many minutes is that worth?  Also check the insurance rates, which I'm sure you have as thorough as you've looked.  I would find a Six to rent and take a trip and do the same with a 206.  See which the riders like best.  You will like either.