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Arkansas Fight: Rebounding had nothing to do with it

Started by Fayettechill14, March 16, 2018, 09:22:23 pm

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Fayettechill14

https://www.arkansasfight.com/2018/3/16/17131684/arkansas-vs-butler-box-score-breakdown

Arkansas was outrebounded 45-25, but the Hogs' scheme allows for that and in this case, rebounding wasn't why Arkansas lost. Shooting was. The Hogs have to do a better job of getting shots against disciplined defenses.

Dr. Starcs


 

rude1

As the old saying defense travels, in our case not playing defense travels. Going to be games where you don't shoot it well, those games are magnified because we don't normally defend well, that is why we usually get blown out in our losses. Gave up 49% shooting, 42% three point shooting, on a day we don't shoot it well nor rebound it we get blown out....................

BoarnSupremacy

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 16, 2018, 09:22:23 pm
https://www.arkansasfight.com/2018/3/16/17131684/arkansas-vs-butler-box-score-breakdown

Arkansas was outrebounded 45-25, but the Hogs' scheme allows for that and in this case, rebounding wasn't why Arkansas lost. Shooting was. The Hogs have to do a better job of getting shots against disciplined defenses.

We got outrebounded by 20.   That's 20 extra shots.  They shot 60% second second half.  That's 26 points.  Got beat 11 to 5 on offensive rebounds....6 extra shots.  This staff has never been taught that rebounding is fundamental basketball.

HognotinMemphis

Quote from: BoarnSupremacy on March 16, 2018, 09:48:42 pm
We got outrebounded by 20.   That's 20 extra shots.  They shot 60% second second half.  That's 26 points.  Got beat 11 to 5 on offensive rebounds....6 extra shots.  This staff has never been taught that rebounding is fundamental basketball.
Ridiculous. How a college coach making 7 figures can even think good results possible with this philosophy is stupid.
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Fayettechill14

Quote from: BoarnSupremacy on March 16, 2018, 09:48:42 pm
We got outrebounded by 20.   That's 20 extra shots.  They shot 60% second second half.  That's 26 points.  Got beat 11 to 5 on offensive rebounds....6 extra shots.  This staff has never been taught that rebounding is fundamental basketball.

That's... not how it works. Their +6 on offensive rebounds was canceled out by them going -7 in turnovers = 1 extra shot for us. They got a lot more defensive rebounds because we missed more shots. What looks like a rebounding problem was actually a shooting problem. If Arkansas shoots its season average, Butler gets way fewer rebounds.

UA1985

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 16, 2018, 09:22:23 pm
https://www.arkansasfight.com/2018/3/16/17131684/arkansas-vs-butler-box-score-breakdown

Arkansas was outrebounded 45-25, but the Hogs' scheme allows for that and in this case, rebounding wasn't why Arkansas lost. Shooting was. The Hogs have to do a better job of getting shots against disciplined defenses.

I thought there was a highly paid coach responsible for teaching our players to take good shots. I guess it's just random bad luck that our guys take bad shots. Nothing anyone can do about it. For example, when one of our big players is being covered by a much smaller player, there's apparently no way for our coach to encourage/enable our team to take advantage of the mismatch. Unless it happens by random good luck, the mismatch can't be exploited.

Poker_hog

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 17, 2018, 03:22:24 pm
That's... not how it works. Their +6 on offensive rebounds was canceled out by them going -7 in turnovers = 1 extra shot for us. They got a lot more defensive rebounds because we missed more shots. What looks like a rebounding problem was actually a shooting problem. If Arkansas shoots its season average, Butler gets way fewer rebounds.

Thier defense had a lot to do with our shooting. They guarded the parameter very well except when our big men drifted out.  We could drive by thier guys anytime we wanted but didn't finish or dish when we did.  The less talented smarter team won.
Sometimes wrong, but never in doubt

Fayettechill14

Quote from: UA1985 on March 17, 2018, 03:34:59 pm
I thought there was a highly paid coach responsible for teaching our players to take good shots. I guess it's just random bad luck that our guys take bad shots. Nothing anyone can do about it. For example, when one of our big players is being covered by a much smaller player, there's apparently no way for our coach to encourage/enable our team to take advantage of the mismatch. Unless it happens by random good luck, the mismatch can't be exploited.

Read the section you're alluding to again, please.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: Poker_hog on March 17, 2018, 03:43:08 pm
Thier defense had a lot to do with our shooting. They guarded the parameter very well except when our big men drifted out.  We could drive by thier guys anytime we wanted but didn't finish or dish when we did.  The less talented smarter team won.

Pretty much. Poor ball movement, inability to stay with their shooters, and poor shooting from beyond the arc were probably the top 3 causes of this loss.

rude1

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 17, 2018, 03:22:24 pm
That's... not how it works. Their +6 on offensive rebounds was canceled out by them going -7 in turnovers = 1 extra shot for us. They got a lot more defensive rebounds because we missed more shots. What looks like a rebounding problem was actually a shooting problem. If Arkansas shoots its season average, Butler gets way fewer rebounds.
I see it as a defensive problem. You can't expect to shoot 50% from the field and 40% from 3 every night. You have to defend, especially on the nights your shot isn't falling. Our shot wasn't falling and we have up 49% & 42% from 3. MA all season long tried to get these guys to play a defense they were bad at, instead of finding a defense they did their best at. He spent all season talking about defense while his team played very little of it.

Oliver

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 17, 2018, 04:00:51 pm
Pretty much. Poor ball movement, inability to stay with their shooters, and poor shooting from beyond the arc were probably the top 3 causes of this loss.

Not running plays to get our best 3 point shooters open against one of the worst 3 point defenses in the NCAA was inexcusable

latrops

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 16, 2018, 09:22:23 pm
https://www.arkansasfight.com/2018/3/16/17131684/arkansas-vs-butler-box-score-breakdown

Arkansas was outrebounded 45-25, but the Hogs' scheme allows for that and in this case, rebounding wasn't why Arkansas lost. Shooting was. The Hogs have to do a better job of getting shots against disciplined defenses.
And one of the complaints many have about the system is that rebounding is sacrificed in favor of getting the defense back/set...which would be fine if the defense were consistently solid. 

 

RebHog

Going to give D. Hall credit he only had 4 on the stat sheet but had his hands on a lot of others and battled hard. Aside from shooting and rebounding I think a huge factor was playing a guy 25 minutes who gave you a stat line of 6 point 0 A 0 R 0 Stl 0 BLK 1 TO. Sometimes a player affects a game that doesn't translate to the stat sheet but this wasn't the case at all. There are guys on the bench that could have played more that are taller and at least could have a rebound or 2.

elksnort

I won't argue with your numbers. And I realized with mic system that rebounding is not a premium because you can make it up from steals. If the jump shots aren't falling and you're not getting steals to make the transition points then you got to score inside. We allegedly have a first round NBA player in the inside that these people can't get the ball to. Frankly this is inexcusable. But not unexpected.

hawginbigd1

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 16, 2018, 09:22:23 pm
https://www.arkansasfight.com/2018/3/16/17131684/arkansas-vs-butler-box-score-breakdown

Arkansas was outrebounded 45-25, but the Hogs' scheme allows for that and in this case, rebounding wasn't why Arkansas lost. Shooting was. The Hogs have to do a better job of getting shots against disciplined defenses.
Can't go back in time but I would give you a 100-1 for whatever stakes you wanted that it is a 5-6 point game either way if the rebounds were 35-35. If your style doesn't value offensive and defensive rebounds your style is retarded!

ChicoHog

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on March 17, 2018, 03:22:24 pm
That's... not how it works. Their +6 on offensive rebounds was canceled out by them going -7 in turnovers = 1 extra shot for us. They got a lot more defensive rebounds because we missed more shots. What looks like a rebounding problem was actually a shooting problem. If Arkansas shoots its season average, Butler gets way fewer rebounds.
Fewer defensive rebounds, yes, but not offensive.  And most offensive rebounds result in a basket while turnovers are probably 50-50.  I'll take rebounding over turnovers any day of the week. 

PonderinHog

Quote from: hawginbigd1 on March 17, 2018, 05:58:11 pm
Can't go back in time but I would give you a 100-1 for whatever stakes you wanted that it is a 5-6 point game either way if the rebounds were 35-35. If your style doesn't value offensive and defensive rebounds your style is retarded!
Our shots weren't falling; therefore, there was nothing we could do but accept defeat.

Tejano Jawg

Outrebounded by 20 doesn't sound good. I get it...if we hit more, we don't need rebounds. But the rest of our game wasn't happening.

And we were outscored in the paint 34 to 22. I'm surprised we got 22.
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GoHogs1091

Probably a lot of if not all of the teams that remain in both the NCAAT and the NIT are good rebounding teams.

You either coach rebounding, or you are at home in your living room watching other teams continue to play in national tournaments.

Today's college basketball environment is not the same as 1994 and 1995.

mykidsdad

Quote from: GoHogs1091 on March 17, 2018, 08:56:40 pm
Probably a lot of if not all of the teams that remain in both the NCAAT and the NIT are good rebounding teams.

You either coach rebounding, or you are at home in your living room watching other teams continue to play in national tournaments.

Today's college basketball environment is not the same as 1994 and 1995.

You are completely incorrect. It is the same as 1994 and 1995. The issue was players playing hard. That is something that Mike has yet to figure out. Nolan would scare the players into playing hard. I think Mike is perhaps too nice, or at least his players don't fear him. Rebounding has nothing to do with what you say, it is desire and playing hard, as with the entire game. The team that players harder, normally gets all loose balls, the funny bounces of rebounds, and even more calls from the refs. Honestly playing hard is the key.

rude1

Quote from: Tejano Jawg on March 17, 2018, 08:51:52 pm
Outrebounded by 20 doesn't sound good. I get it...if we hit more, we don't need rebounds. But the rest of our game wasn't happening.

And we were outscored in the paint 34 to 22. I'm surprised we got 22.
That's just a way to spin getting clobbered on the boards. With poor shooting and more opportunities for offensive rebounds we got 5 offensive rebounds. With less opportunities for offensive rebounds because of better shooting Butler had one player get 5 offensive rebounds and a team total of 11. To say if we shoot better we narrow the rebound margin is just being way to simplistic.

GoHogs1091

Quote from: mykidsdad on March 17, 2018, 09:01:44 pm
You are completely incorrect. It is the same as 1994 and 1995. The issue was players playing hard. That is something that Mike has yet to figure out. Nolan would scare the players into playing hard. I think Mike is perhaps too nice, or at least his players don't fear him. Rebounding has nothing to do with what you say, it is desire and playing hard, as with the entire game. The team that players harder, normally gets all loose balls, the funny bounces of rebounds, and even more calls from the refs. Honestly playing hard is the key.

Supposedly, Nolan Richardson once stated that rebounding is overrated.

Nolan got by with that mentality back in the 1994 and 1995 time frame.

Now days, it doesn't work out for Anderson.  His outdated slogan based system ("Fastest 40 Minutes") won't go very far without fundamentals such as rebounding.

Butler showed/schooled Anderson about the importance of rebounding.

hawginbigd1

Quote from: PonderinHog on March 17, 2018, 06:08:08 pm
Our shots weren't falling; therefore, there was nothing we could do but accept defeat.
That apparently is the only way to play basketball, there is no other way LOL. In the history of college basketball there apparently has never been a team to shoot below average and win a game by excelling at other aspects of the game! ;)