Up and coming versus established head coach

[lamont7906]

My question is who do you prefer and why and why not? I always thought about this and Arkansas being a mid level program and located in a small state and town who would do us best. I feel getting an up and coming coach would be better for our program. Both types of coaches have their pros and cons; however, I think the pros of an up and comer is better.
A well established coach like so many here want is not likely unless he trying to rebuild his reputation or have ties within the state IMO.

[Atlhogfan1]

Absolutely not.  No up and comer.  This is a uniquely tough job in a bloodbath of a conference.  No inexperienced or assistant coach.   Even Bielema brought doubts as he had never built a program. 

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

You have to define up and comer first.

In college basketball it typically means a low to mid major HC that has had success at his current school has taken the team to the post season, won some NCAA games and get's talked about on ESPN.

In college football what you are probably referring to more is a coordinator that everyone thinks is ready for a HC position, but they are still an unknown unproven commodity as a head coach.  There is no HC body of work to judge them on.

After that there are G5 HC's that have made a name for themselves at their current school.  Jeff Brohm at WKU, PJ Fleck, Chris Peterson was, Willie Taggart, Larry Fedora when he was at USM.  I don't view them as up and comers if they have been HC at a G5 for 4 years or more and have won at a consistent level.  They are not unproven commodities they have just not been P5 head coaches.

Florida is the best example of what happens when you hire one versus the other because they have had several examples of each in their recent history.

G5 or G5 like hires.

1.  Steve Spurrier (realize Duke was ACC but it was a G5 caliber job in terms of prestige when he got there)
2.  Urban Meyer
3.  Jim Swamp Donkey.

Coordinator Hires
1.  Ron Zook
2.  Will Muschamp.

Now did Florida do better with Coordinators or HC's that had proven themselves at a lower level?

The coordinator hire going right to P5 can work such as Stoops at OU and Richt at GA but those cases are fewer and farther between. 

[The_Iceman]

I would take Brent Venables with a high powered mid-major OC right now. I used to think you needed an offensive coach to win here. But now, with offensive minds being more common than defense, I think you should establish the defense and get a spread run OC.

[Arkansas Fan]

Absolutely not.  No up and comer.  This is a uniquely tough job in a bloodbath of a conference.  No inexperienced or assistant coach.   Even Bielema brought doubts as he had never built a program.

Bielema's still an established coach, and he ain't doing so good here.

[RME]

Absolutely not.  No up and comer.  This is a uniquely tough job in a bloodbath of a conference.  No inexperienced or assistant coach.   Even Bielema brought doubts as he had never built a program.

So...no one like Dan Mullen? 61 wins in 8 years at Mississippi State, a school that won 29 games in the 8 years before he got there, in what is perceived today as a weaker SEC?

Yeah, screw an up-and-coming inexperienced or assistant coach.

[Atlhogfan1]

Bielema's still an established coach, and he ain't doing so good here.

The program is better than when he got it.  He isn't doing well.  Were you trying to help me with my point of what this job is?

[TX HOG]

Mullen avg 10 wins a year?

[Atlhogfan1]

So...no one like Dan Mullen? 61 wins in 6 years at Mississippi State, a school that won 23 games in the 6 years before he got there, in what is perceived today as a weaker SEC?

I wouldn't do it at Arkansas.

[RME]

Mullen avg 10 wins a year?

My mistake, 8 seasons, not 6.

I'm rushing it today, my fault.

Still, the point remains.

[Atlhogfan1]

Mullen avg 10 wins a year?

7.5

61 in 8 seasons

[TX HOG]

My mistake, 8 seasons, not 6.

I'm rushing it today, my fault.

Still, the point remains.

Ok. I was like dang!!

[RME]

I wouldn't do it at Arkansas.

If Bielema were let go today, who would you want?

Very quick to shoot down up-and-comer ideas, so what established coach would realistically come here all variables considered?

[rhames]

If Bielema were let go today, who would you want?

Very quick to shoot down up-and-comer ideas, so what established coach would realistically come here all variables considered?

None

[Hawghiggs]

 It really depends on the up and comer coach. If they actually have had success at a smaller program, and not a one year wonder. Then sure. The up and comer is usually more motivated and adaptable than a coach that has had success at another place.

[Atlhogfan1]

If Bielema were let go today, who would you want?

Very quick to shoot down up-and-comer ideas, so what established coach would realistically come here all variables considered?

Have not thought of a list.  I would give the respect to the new coach to not criticize from the beginning even if an inexperienced head coach or up and comer. 

No idea on established coach.  Lots of factors go into it.  Never knew BB was looking.

Our program doesn't have much of a history of hiring up and comers.  Crowe when Broyles panicked and Nutt even though a winning SEC coach in Tuberville wanted the job. 

[Al Boarland]

So...no one like Dan Mullen? 61 wins in 8 years at Mississippi State, a school that won 29 games in the 8 years before he got there, in what is perceived today as a weaker SEC?

Yeah, screw an up-and-coming inexperienced or assistant coach.

Take a peek at Mullins record vs top 25 teams.

[downsouthhawg72]

Bobby P. was a established coach but he couldn't beat the 2 teams it would take to win here.....(BAMA & LSU).....Most people here would rather win 10 games a year but lose those 2 games & be A-OK with that....CBP most high powered Offenses here still couldn't touch BAMA.

[rhames]

Take a peek at Mullins record vs top 25 teams.

Outside of about probably 3 or 4 coaches most of their top 25 records suck.

[Youngsta71701]

Like I've said before I would take Kevin Kelley or Rick Jones. I think they would bring a lot of excitement to the program and bring the fan base together if nothing else. Not to mention I think they both know how to coach and win ball games. Both of their systems would attract a lot of skilled players. Coach Kelley reminds me of a high school Nick Saban. Little man don't play.

[Atlhogfan1]

If we were to go up and comer or assistant, I would strongly hope the coach would have deep SEC roots and understands the conference.  What it is to recruit in this part of the country including the tactics of competitors.  The athletes it takes to compete. 

[Atlhogfan1]

Like I've said before I would take Kevin Kelley or Rick Jones. I think they would bring a lot of excitement to the program and bring the fan base together if nothing else. Not to mention I think they both know how to coach. Coach Kelley reminds me of a high school Nick Saban. Little man don't play.

How would they build a staff?  Would they have the connections to build an SEC quality one?  Would they understand how to recruit or would there be a learning curve?  How steep and long would it be?  Would they understand what it would take athlete-wise to win at this level?  How long would it take them to learn how to manage all the demands an SEC coach has in overseeing a program?  Would be a huge risk to gamble the program on.  Coaches who have never had to project what a 17-18 yr old could be at 21-22. 

[Youngsta71701]

How would they build a staff?  Would they have the connections to build an SEC quality one?  Would they understand how to recruit or would there be a learning curve?  How steep and long would it be?  Would they understand what it would take athlete-wise to win at this level?  How long would it take them to learn how to manage all the demands an SEC coach has in overseeing a program?  Would be a huge risk to gamble the program on.

1. Believe it or not college coaches and high school coaches communicate more than you might think. Probably about recruiting more than anything.
2. Trust me. Coach Kelley knows how recruit... ...Just joking...
3. He is a pretty sharp coach. Don't think the learning curve would be long. If Hugh Freeze can do it he can.
4. He understands athletes quite well. Including recognizing their strengths and weaknesses.
5. P.A. is basically ran like a college program. Including the demands in the schedule.
6. Yes it would be a huge risk for the program but I think it would be worth it. Considering where we are at this point it couldn't hurt.

[devildoghawg]

Bobby P. was a established coach but he couldn't beat the 2 teams it would take to win here.....(BAMA & LSU).....Most people here would rather win 10 games a year but lose those 2 games & be A-OK with that....CBP most high powered Offenses here still couldn't touch BAMA.

He beat LSU. 

[RME]

Outside of about probably 3 or 4 coaches most of their top 25 records suck.

They do. Most recent article I could find was before this year (https://www.seccountry.com/sec/every-current-sec-head-coach-vs-ranked-teams), and Saban and Miles were well above .500, Sumlin was about right at it, and everyone else was falling off. Also, that article includes Bielema against Top 25 teams at Wisconsin.

Mullen also ripped off 3 wins in a row against top-10 teams when he took, uh, Mississippi State to #1 in the nation in 2014.

According to Wikipedia, whose rankings are from the AP poll, here is what Bret has done at Arkansas against then-Top 25 teams:

2013: 0-6
2014: 2-6
2015: 2-2
2016: 3-5

Total: 7-19 against Top 25 = .269

Really setting the world on fire.

[rude1]

I have always favored the up and comer over the proven guy. My line of thinking is that coaching hires are a crap shoot, you can do all the due diligence you want and get it wrong. When you go after a coach who is established,  if you get him you are going to have to make some very big concessions to him to get him there, including some big time guarantees. If things don't workout you are going to be paying him handsomely to leave.

With an up and comer, they usually except a modest salary, with a modest buyout, they are more interested in the opportunity to prove they belong. If it doesn't work out it's much easier to part company financially and start over. Coach O at LSU is a prime example, he just wanted the job, doesn't care about being the lowest paid in the division, he just wants to prove he belongs. If it doesn't work out, LSU won't have to hold their nose and waste seasons for the buy out to get lower to remove him, they will pay him off and move on.

[Atlhogfan1]

LSU can much more easily recruit their way out of a mistake.  Like Florida or Georgia.   

[12247]

If I were choosing our next coach, the first thing I would look for is work ethic.  A person who busts his butt expects his assistants to bust their butts.  With desire and sincerity this person can bring onboard assistants that not many coaches could get.  Same with recruits.  Recruits want to win.  They can see and their parents can see winners.  If the coach's desire is deep enough and his ego there but intact, he can look for and hire assistants for those areas that he doesn't know well enough to be a winner.  Stoops hired Mike Leach as OC because he knew defense but lacked in offensive knowledge.

For example:  Venables is known as a worker, a dedicated, refuse to lose winner.  Most assistants would want to work for Venables because they wish to advance and can see Venables wants to win enough to put in the time and effort to do so.  Venables is a verison of Saban when it comes to effort and study.  He leaves no stone unturned to find a way to success.  The only reason Venables might fail as a HC is that he might drive his coaches too hard or maybe he is just too dumb to grasp the entire HC requirements.  But I doubt the dumb part and losing assistants due to hard work is not a bad thing in my opinion.  Venables, though an assistant, would be a huge upgrade for us because of work ethic alone.

ALL THAT SAID, WE ARE NOT IN THE MARKET FOR A HC AND LIKELY WON'T BE FOR MANY YEARS.

[downsouthhawg72]

He beat LSU.

Yes he did.....But he had a Ryan M. that pretty much feel in his lap....What else did he do besides losing to Bama & LSU most years....Like I said, without beating both you haven't did nothing...

[RME]

Yes he did.....But he had a Ryan M. that pretty much feel in his lap....What else did he do besides losing to Bama & LSU most years....Like I said, without beating both you haven't did nothing...

This argument holds such little merit that it needs to be bant from this place.

From 2008 (Petrino's first year) to present, Nick Saban has lost 12 games at Alabama. That's 12 losses in 9 seasons. Those 12 losses include games to Tim Tebow, Sugar Bowl champion Utah, National Champion Auburn, LSU x2, Johnny Manziel, National Championship loser Auburn, Sugar Bowl champion Oklahoma, Sugar Bowl champion Ole Miss, and National Champion Ohio State.

Stop. Using. The. Argument. That. Petrino. Couldn't. Beat. Bama.

No. One. Beats. Bama.

[ATU HOG]

Yes he did.....But he had a Ryan M. that pretty much feel in his lap....What else did he do besides losing to Bama & LSU most years....Like I said, without beating both you haven't did nothing...

2-2 against LSU
0-4 against Bama

Beat LSU once with Casey Dick and once with Ryan Mallett. 

He also never lost a game he was favored in. 

[rhames]

Meyer was at Florida when saban lost to Utah. He beat saban that year for the sec championship

[Bubba's Bruisers]

Yes he did.....But he had a Ryan M. that pretty much feel in his lap....What else did he do besides losing to Bama & LSU most years....Like I said, without beating both you haven't did nothing...

So you agree that BB hasn't done anything, right?

[The_Iceman]

Take a peek at Mullins record vs top 25 teams.

He is coaching at Mississippi State. What do you expect him to do? He is a grossly underrated coach.

[lakecityhog]

Laugh if you want to but I would hard at Derek Mason. Doing what he has at Vandy is saying something.
We would have a good defense if we had nothing else!

If Long could convince him and Enos to stick it out together for a couple of years we could be pretty good. I would want him to keep M Smith and Lunney, but he might want to bring in his whole crew.
I would think that he would keep Lunney for the state knowledge.

[Hogs958]

Watch Strong do really well at USF, and Arkansas go after him in a couple years.

[dowils]

Chip Kelley.....

[Arkansas Fan]

Petrino still hasn't learned his lesson. His all offense approach got his ass beat by LSU, even with his little Heisman QB running around.

And I still see people defending Petrino. Amazing.

[Calling All Hogs]

Our best two coaches in basketball ever, Eddie and Nolan, were up and comers but of course so was Heath. I am open to an open and comer who has been a head coach at a lesser division level and turned a program around.

[Hollywood870]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Frost Take a minute and read this guys bio. Could probably get him after next year and wouldn't have to break the bank, unless he goes 11-2 or something.

[Hogs958]

If they go outside the box I have no problem. Do not go after the generic and boring Jim Grobe types. They are good for a bout 7 wins a year.

[NuttinItUp]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Frost Take a minute and read this guys bio. Could probably get him after next year and wouldn't have to break the bank, unless he goes 11-2 or something.

He went 6-7 at UCF.
Our current coach went 7-6 in an off year in the SEC-West.

What is there to talk about?

[rude1]

Petrino still hasn't learned his lesson. His all offense approach got his ass beat by LSU, even with his little Heisman QB running around.

And I still see people defending Petrino. Amazing.

Their problem didn't start there, their slide started when they lost focus after they were complaining about not being in the final 4 when the first poll came out. They haven't looked the same since and ended the season on a 3 game skid.

[Hogs958]

Their problem didn't start there, their slide started when they lost focus after they were complaining about not being in the final 4 when the first poll came out. They haven't looked the same since and ended the season on a 3 game skid.

I always wondered how that next season would have turned out under Petrino had he not wrecked his Harley. That team was just bad...especially the defense.

[Hollywood870]

He went 6-7 at UCF.
Our current coach went 7-6 in an off year in the SEC-West.

What is there to talk about?

Obvious talented up and coming spread option coach who took over for a horrible team. Look at the coaching lineage. We'll see how he does next year. I'm not that interested in discussing it with you anyway seeing that you're obviously ready to ride out seven more Liberty Bowls in hopes of that one 9 win season.

[12247]

LSU upgraded their HC and they will be good next season, very good.  Petrino and company got beat by a very good team but they should have shown up better.  Louisville crapped the bed late in the season.

[NuttinItUp]

Obvious talented up and coming spread option coach who took over for a horrible team. Look at the coaching lineage. We'll see how he does next year. I'm not that interested in discussing it with you anyway seeing that you're obviously ready to ride out seven more Liberty Bowls in hopes of that one 9 win season.

Put down the bottle, bro.

[hawgfan4life]

If Orgeron was so great and coaching is the key variable, Ole Miss would have been better.  He will be great at LSU because talent will make him better.

Hiring a high school coach to lead an SEC team is a new low for our fans if anyone gets behind that idea.

[Hogs958]

If Orgeron was so great and coaching is the key variable, Ole Miss would have been better.  He will be great at LSU because talent will make him better.

Hiring a high school coach to lead an SEC team is a new low for our fans if anyone gets behind that idea.

Orgeron is the entertaining guy at the crawfish broil. I still don't think he can put it together as a head coach. If he does then good for him.

[Hollywood870]

Put down the bottle, bro.

Not sipping on anything tonight man.