Arkansas: Recruiting, Attrition and Coaching

[jkstock04]

Some people would say we overachieved this year based on what we lost on defense. However after seeing that our offense would be ok earlier in the year I would say we underachieved because of how bad our defense was. If we were just an average defense this year we would have won at least two more games for sure.

Texas A&M and Missouri...Although our offense did falter in the Red Zone in both of the games. Just take the points instead of going for it and we possibly win both of those games...Those were coaching decisions and QB decisions that contributed greatly to those losses also.

What did we lose on defense?

[Youngsta71701]

What did we lose on defense?

My bad...I meant defense. Fixed it for ya.

[ArkansasI]

Thanks to the OP - et al. - that have contributed hard core data to this thread.  You have provided objective statistics about the distances that must be traveled to recruit a competitive football team to Fayetteville.


Three comments:

1.  Rutgers and Missouri are sleeping giants.

2.  The future of Razorback athletics might be best cultivated through post-graduate opportunities in NW Arkansas.  This is a great part of the country to live and work.  Increase the value of attending the University of Arkansas by partnering with local corporations focused on tightening perceived cultural gaps.  Objectively demonstrate commitment to athletes beyond intercollegiate athletics and everybody wins.

3.  Bret cares about his players - in a comprehensive way.  This thing isn't where we want it, but it is moving toward sustained improvement.  Fixing culture takes time.  Let's fight with the team.

[Pork Twain]

Here are a couple more tables.

First one breaks down the 4 and 5 stars players produced by Arkansas. 

The second one breaks down the level of stars we recruited each year, total players each year and wins each year.  This allows you to see how a given class might have affected the amount of wins in coming years and also allows you to see how the number of wins has affected recruiting. (top row = total number signed, next row = 3* or lower, middle line = number of wins, next to bottom row = 4* and bottom row = 5*)

The third chart shows the trend in the top four states we recruit.

The last chart looks at recruiting vs results

[RazorWest]

Hard for me to get past the below conference win % stats
HN = 52.5%
BP = 53.1%
BB = 29.2%

I understand recruiting issues but BP and HN had winning records in the SEC.  BP had a trash first year where they didn't make a bowl like BB did and HN had two crap years where they didn't make a bowl, but overall they had a winning record.  The SEC was as crappy this year and last year as it's been since I can remember.  Yes Alabama is unbelievable, but no one else is close to elite.  Arkansas needs to be able to take advantage of years like this and last.  In my opinion, BP had the toughest competition out of the three.  HN and BB probably about the same.  LSU was much better in the later HN years and they had to play Tennessee every year who was elite back then.  Ole Miss and Miss St weren't very good but they suck this year too.  Alabama is much better now then in the HDN days.  Auburn is a push in my opinion. 

Recruiting is huge, but my god Arkansas should not be below 500 in conference.

[Atlhogfan1]

Hard for me to get past the below conference win % stats
HN = 52.5%
BP = 53.1%
BB = 29.2%

I understand recruiting issues but BP and HN had winning records in the SEC.  BP had a trash first year where they didn't make a bowl like BB did and HN had two crap years where they didn't make a bowl, but overall they had a winning record.  The SEC was as crappy this year and last year as it's been since I can remember.  Yes Alabama is unbelievable, but no one else is close to elite.  Arkansas needs to be able to take advantage of years like this and last.  In my opinion, BP had the toughest competition out of the three.  HN and BB probably about the same.  LSU was much better in the later HN years and they had to play Tennessee every year who was elite back then.  Ole Miss and Miss St weren't very good but they suck this year too.  Alabama is much better now then in the HDN days.  Auburn is a push in my opinion. 

Recruiting is huge, but my god Arkansas should not be below 500 in conference.

A huge disconnect with our fans is the overall and conference record for Bielema in holding that first season against him.  If you want to hold him responsible and criticize for his record since, okay.  Somewhat reasonable especially the past two seasons as we began to move to his recruits, his developed players and some depth.  10-14 isn't great.  8-8 over the last two seasons.  Starting to get into what could be acceptable although this season should have absolutely been a game better in the SEC. 

It is also extremely shallow to get hung up on the record when looking at the early program build seasons.  There is enough to be critical about beyond the records as they don't tell the whole story.  Not even more than small part of it. 

As far as the SEC this season, when we played opponents like A&M, AU, OM, LSU and Florida, they were very different teams than they were at other times in the season.  Florida in a good way for us the week we played.  A&M not which has been the norm with A&M. 

[hogsanity]

A huge disconnect with our fans is the overall and conference record for Bielema in holding that first season against him. 

what is funny is that many of those same fans tell us that another coach currently on the hill is not responsible for his 1st three seasons.

[Pork Twain]

The first chart is just for reference, with Kentucky and Vandy at the top and everyone else bunched below, to show how the SEC does in national recruiting.  The second shows how we have faired within the conference.  The last four classes have been our most consistent since they began rating them and we have also had the lowest miss-rate during that period.

[Pork Twain]

Hard for me to get past the below conference win % stats
HN = 52.5%
BP = 53.1%
BB = 29.2%
I understand recruiting issues but BP and HN had winning records in the SEC.  BP had a trash first year where they didn't make a bowl like BB did and HN had two crap years where they didn't make a bowl, but overall they had a winning record.  The SEC was as crappy this year and last year as it's been since I can remember.  Yes Alabama is unbelievable, but no one else is close to elite.  Arkansas needs to be able to take advantage of years like this and last.  In my opinion, BP had the toughest competition out of the three.  HN and BB probably about the same.  LSU was much better in the later HN years and they had to play Tennessee every year who was elite back then.  Ole Miss and Miss St weren't very good but they suck this year too.  Alabama is much better now then in the HDN days.  Auburn is a push in my opinion. 
Recruiting is huge, but my god Arkansas should not be below 500 in conference.

Well you need to get passed it.  With numbers, sometimes you have to look past the surface to see reality.

1. Neither one of those guys took over a train-wreck like CBB did, and when the SECW was at an all-time high.  I am not sure anyone could have turned that mess around in the first year and won more than a couple of conference games, but lets hang on to that season…

2. If you made it this far and you still don’t get how big of a disadvantage we are at in recruiting…

3. So far BB has made it to three bowl games in four seasons and if he wins this one, he will do something that has not been done here before.

4. BP did face a very tough schedule in 2010 and 2011, each year facing 6 ranked teams.  In 2013 and 2015 BB faced 6 ranked teams as well and in 2014 he faced 8.  Hard to say that BP faced stiffer competition.

5. The SECW from the HDN days does not even come close to what it is today.  Here are is a list of top 25 SEC West teams we played by year. 20 for HDN (10 years), 18 for BB (4 years), and 9 for BP (4 years).
1998 – 1
1999 – 2
2000 – 3
2001 – 2
2002 – 2
2003 – 1
2004 – 2
2005 – 3
2006 – 2
2007 – 2
2008 – 2
2009 – 3
2010 – 4
2011 – 3
2012 – 2
2013 – 4
2014 – 6
2015 – 4
2016 – 4

6. We stopped playing TN annually in 2003

7. Expecting to finish above .500 in a conference we have never come close to finishing in the top .750 in recruiting is asking a lot of any coach.

[Pork Twain]

When it comes to the recruiting situation in Arkansas and the uphill battle any coach faces compared to his SECW peers, it only gets more depressing the more you dig into the numbers.

[Biggus Piggus]

1. Neither one of those guys took over a train-wreck like CBB did, and when the SECW was at an all-time high.  I am not sure anyone could have turned that mess around in the first year and won more than a couple of conference games, but lets hang on to that season…

It's the height of silliness to hold the 2013 season against Bielema. Doesn't matter who was coaching, that was going to be a disaster.

[Atlhogfan1]

When it comes to the recruiting situation in Arkansas and the uphill battle any coach faces compared to his SECW peers, it only gets more depressing the more you dig into the numbers.

The problem we have no solution to fix and likely no coach could solve without shattering NCAA rules.  Everything about our coaching job is a good one but this.  It is why it is a big career risk for any coach who has established themselves elsewhere as a winner and could have other options.  We outrecruit 75-80% of college football annually based on the rankings which would be great in any other conference.  Looked at Penn St a few weeks ago and it is easy to see why they are back competing in the B1G.  They outrecruit all but Oh St and Michigan with a Mich St occasionally rising up in the recruiting rankings.  They would be close to our situation in the SEC in recent rankings. 

[Atlhogfan1]

what is funny is that many of those same fans tell us that another coach currently on the hill is not responsible for his 1st three seasons.

Don't get me started again on that whole situation.  Hopefully the state's AAU programs will make this better than it otherwise would be for the next 8-10 years or however long it will be till he retires and make it interesting enough to where fans will still care to pay attention. 

[hogsanity]

The problem we have no solution to fix and likely no coach could solve without shattering NCAA rules. 

What still baffles me is how many hog fans want to ignore this or act like it is some made up excuse.

We outrecruit 75-80% of college football annually based on the rankings

They want to act like our classes are ranked 60th or worse, when in reality a top 20 class may still be 10th in the sec some years.

[Pork Twain]

The problem we have no solution to fix and likely no coach could solve without shattering NCAA rules.  Everything about our coaching job is a good one but this.  It is why it is a big career risk for any coach who has established themselves elsewhere as a winner and could have other options.  We outrecruit 75-80% of college football annually based on the rankings which would be great in any other conference.  Looked at Penn St a few weeks ago and it is easy to see why they are back competing in the B1G.  They outrecruit all but Oh St and Michigan with a Mich St occasionally rising up in the recruiting rankings.  They would be close to our situation in the SEC in recent rankings. 

That is what some just do not get no matter how much you put it in their face. 

We face a tough road due to the public school system and quality of competition, number of SEC caliber players, location of the university, and draw for out of state kids.

College Footballs Easiest to Toughest Recruiting Jobs:
1. Georgia
5. LSU
6. Bama
7. Florida
11. Auburn
12. Texas A&M
16. Tennessee
24. Ole Miss
25. Arkansas
28 Mississippi St
34. South Carolina
36. Mizzou
54. Kentucky
58. Vandy

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/14312923/college-football-easiest-toughest-recruiting-jobs-1-65

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2012/12/14/the-surprising-factors-driving-college-football-recruits-decision/#179191916395

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/08/31/the-economics-of-college-football-what-the-top-25-spend-on-recruiting/#6d3354b96d2c

[Pudgepork]

Its obvious from the attrition rates posted that CBB is building depth. He is building depth with solid classes if not flashy ones.   Win consistently and you'll see more flash and after a few years more kids in state playing football and building homegrown Razorbacks.
Its not an overnight process.   Look for changes in 5 yr intervals

[RazorWest]

Well you need to get passed it.  With numbers, sometimes you have to look past the surface to see reality.

1. Neither one of those guys took over a train-wreck like CBB did, and when the SECW was at an all-time high.  I am not sure anyone could have turned that mess around in the first year and won more than a couple of conference games, but lets hang on to that season...

2. If you made it this far and you still don't get how big of a disadvantage we are at in recruiting...

3. So far BB has made it to three bowl games in four seasons and if he wins this one, he will do something that has not been done here before.

4. BP did face a very tough schedule in 2010 and 2011, each year facing 6 ranked teams.  In 2013 and 2015 BB faced 6 ranked teams as well and in 2014 he faced 8.  Hard to say that BP faced stiffer competition.

5. The SECW from the HDN days does not even come close to what it is today.  Here are is a list of top 25 SEC West teams we played by year. 20 for HDN (10 years), 18 for BB (4 years), and 9 for BP (4 years).
1998 – 1
1999 – 2
2000 – 3
2001 – 2
2002 – 2
2003 – 1
2004 – 2
2005 – 3
2006 – 2
2007 – 2
2008 – 2
2009 – 3
2010 – 4
2011 – 3
2012 – 2
2013 – 4
2014 – 6
2015 – 4
2016 – 4

6. We stopped playing TN annually in 2003

7. Expecting to finish above .500 in a conference we have never come close to finishing in the top .750 in recruiting is asking a lot of any coach.

What are you talking about with number 7?  Houston Nutt and BP did it?  why can't BB? 

[Pork Twain]

I always hear the argument, "Well if we were in Conf X..."

Here is how we would rank in various conferences.

[Pork Twain]

What are you talking about with number 7?  Houston Nutt and BP did it?  why can't BB? 

HDN did it 3 times in 10 years, BP did it twice in four years and BB has done it once in four years.  Expecting it to happen is foolish.

[Biggus Piggus]

HDN did it 3 times in 10 years, BP did it twice in four years and BB has done it once in four years.  Expecting it to happen is foolish.

Not sure he understands what you mean. It's foolish to expect something that has never been anything close to a constant. It would mean you'll be unhappy as often (or more often) as not, regardless of what's reasonable.

[RazorWest]

HDN did it 3 times in 10 years, BP did it twice in four years and BB has done it once in four years.  Expecting it to happen is foolish.

OK, maybe a better way to say it is HDN was below .500 three times in 10 years, BP once in four years, and BB three times in four years.  So HDN was below 500 30% of the time, BP 25%, and BB 75%.  We can make numbers say a lot of things.  I just don't buy the idea that Arkansas can't win because they can't recruit well enough.  Texas Tech, Toledo, and Mizzou don't recruit as well as Arkansas but they beat them.  Florida out recruits the heck out of Arkansas but the Hogs destroyed them. 

Arkansas is good enough right now on Offense to hang with most teams.  They didn't out recruit all the SEC west teams for offensive players, but they are solid enough to hang with anyone.  Why can't they do it on defense?

[Pork Twain]

OK, maybe a better way to say it is HDN was below .500 three times in 10 years, BP once in four years, and BB three times in four years.  So HDN was below 500 30% of the time, BP 25%, and BB 75%.  We can make numbers say a lot of things.  I just don't buy the idea that Arkansas can't win because they can't recruit well enough.  Texas Tech, Toledo, and Mizzou don't recruit as well as Arkansas but they beat them.  Florida out recruits the heck out of Arkansas but the Hogs destroyed them. 

Arkansas is good enough right now on Offense to hang with most teams.  They didn't out recruit all the SEC west teams for offensive players, but they are solid enough to hang with anyone.  Why can't they do it on defense?

I am done with this, not ruining this thread trying to explain the obvious, because there is no way I can give you more data than I already have.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

OK, maybe a better way to say it is HDN was below .500 three times in 10 years, BP once in four years, and BB three times in four years.  So HDN was below 500 30% of the time, BP 25%, and BB 75%.  We can make numbers say a lot of things.  I just don't buy the idea that Arkansas can't win because they can't recruit well enough.  Texas Tech, Toledo, and Mizzou don't recruit as well as Arkansas but they beat them.  Florida out recruits the heck out of Arkansas but the Hogs destroyed them. 

Arkansas is good enough right now on Offense to hang with most teams.  They didn't out recruit all the SEC west teams for offensive players, but they are solid enough to hang with anyone.  Why can't they do it on defense?

That's the $64,000 question. If any of us had the answer immediately at hand we would be making $900K or more per year being a big time DC.

I'll tell you this, I think we are overlooking Texas recruiting to a great degree. We have really improved on Louisiana and Florida recruiting, which is good, but even with all of the competition, Texas seems to be "low hanging fruit" that we might not be taking advantage of as we go after defensive recruits. I think we need to have 30 Texas players on our roster at all times...and not just any players from Texas but those that are either immediate difference makers or those that can be developed. Now do those guys fit all of our criteria for recruiting? Maybe not, but there have to be some that are drawn to the philosophy of our program and they are probably easier to land (in terms of distance) than Florida or Georgia players.

[RazorWest]

I am done with this, not ruining this thread trying to explain the obvious, because there is no way I can give you more data than I already have.

?, didn't mean to ruin the thread just trying to have a conversation. I'm saying that Arkansas has been good enough to be 500 in conference consistently.  BB is .500 the last two years in conference combined so there you go.

I'm not anti BB at all, but I am anti everyone that is trying to pull razorback expectations down below levels it's consistently been. So many posters want to discredit success Arkansas has had in the past and write that success up to luck or everyone else sucking. Truth is Arkansas is capable and will be successful again imo

This is a general statement too, not directed at anyone in particular just the general sentimate the hogs can't consistently do better than their recruiting rankings indicate

[MuskogeeHogFan]

?, didn't mean to ruin the thread just trying to have a conversation. I'm saying that Arkansas has been good enough to be 500 in conference consistently.  BB is .500 the last two years in conference combined so there you go.

I'm not anti BB at all, but I am anti everyone that is trying to pull razorback expectations down below levels it's consistently been. So many posters want to discredit success Arkansas has had in the past and write that success up to luck or everyone else sucking. Truth is Arkansas is capable and will be successful again imo

The overall strength of the conference ebbs and flows. Among Nutt, BP and Bielema it was weakest overall under Nutt, next under BP. Bielema has had to deal with a far stronger Division and Conference than either of those two did.

[RazorWest]

The overall strength of the conference ebbs and flows. Among Nutt, BP and Bielema it was weakest overall under Nutt, next under BP. Bielema has had to deal with a far stronger Division and Conference than either of those two did.

So I don't necessarily disagree with that completely, but if the argument is Arkansas has a ceiling due to recruiting disadvantage then that disadvantage was the same then as it is now. In other words, if Arkansas was averaging 5 or 6 in recruiting in the west back then and that's what they are averaging now isn't the disadvantage the same?  Or is this a situation where the rest of the west went from the lower teens to the top 10 but Arkansas hasn't moved? 

[Atlhogfan1]

So I don't necessarily disagree with that completely, but if the argument is Arkansas has a ceiling due to recruiting disadvantage then that disadvantage was the same then as it is now. In other words, if Arkansas was averaging 5 or 6 in recruiting in the west back then and that's what they are averaging now isn't the disadvantage the same?  Or is this a situation where the rest of the west went from the lower teens to the top 10 but Arkansas hasn't moved?

A&Ms addition to SEC added another elite recruiting program. So there is one change since Nutt. 

Saban built 2 SECW programs after Nutt started at Arkansas.

[ChicoHog]

OK, maybe a better way to say it is HDN was below .500 three times in 10 years, BP once in four years, and BB three times in four years.  So HDN was below 500 30% of the time, BP 25%, and BB 75%.  We can make numbers say a lot of things.  I just don't buy the idea that Arkansas can't win because they can't recruit well enough.  Texas Tech, Toledo, and Mizzou don't recruit as well as Arkansas but they beat them.  Florida out recruits the heck out of Arkansas but the Hogs destroyed them. 

Arkansas is good enough right now on Offense to hang with most teams.  They didn't out recruit all the SEC west teams for offensive players, but they are solid enough to hang with anyone.  Why can't they do it on defense?

Because for the most part you teach offense, you recruit defense. 

[RazorWest]

Because for the most part you teach offense, you recruit defense.

Don't know if this is true or not but love it.

[Pork Twain]

?, didn't mean to ruin the thread just trying to have a conversation. I'm saying that Arkansas has been good enough to be 500 in conference consistently.  BB is .500 the last two years in conference combined so there you go.

I'm not anti BB at all, but I am anti everyone that is trying to pull razorback expectations down below levels it's consistently been. So many posters want to discredit success Arkansas has had in the past and write that success up to luck or everyone else sucking. Truth is Arkansas is capable and will be successful again imo

This is a general statement too, not directed at anyone in particular just the general sentimate the hogs can't consistently do better than their recruiting rankings indicate

Sorry for the overreaction then.  I thought you were starting to Guv/PRJ me.

I am not trying to discredit the success that past coaches have had and I am very happy they had it.  I just believe that in order to see the full picture you have to take several steps back.  I loved BP right up till the wreck.

First and most importantly is how strong was the SEC W during these times.  For most of HDN's time here the SECW was weak sauce as a whole compared to now.  From 1998 to 2009, there were only a couple of standout SECW teams each year.  Then Bama, LSU and Auburn woke up in 2010 and aTm arrived in 2012.  Taking that into account, as well as several other variables, is why you should not just compare records.  You have to dig into the numbers.

As far as defense vs offense.  We have seen it time and time again, where a few key players can completely turn the offensive side of the ball around (Matt Jones, Vince Young, Tim Tebow, Robert Griffin, Mike Vick, Eli Manning, Johnny Football and Cam).  Throw a super athlete out there at qb and he can change the game.  That is rarely the case with defense.  In college, throw a super freak out there on defense and if there is not a solid defense around him, he can be neutralized.  A great player on defense can be blocked and exploited.  You can double-team, chip block, pull a defender out to cover an RB or TE, spread the field.  Some of the best offensive teams are great at one thing and average at another.  Between HDN and BP, we have seen both extremes.  Just think about all of the teams that are one-dimensional offensively, now try to do the same with defense.  If a team is great on run defense but sucks against the pass, they are about to get lit up.  Conversely, if a team is great on pass-defense but sucks against the run, they are about to get pounded.  Most of the great defensive teams are solid all the way around.  BP was an offensive mastermind but the teams he had the hardest time with were good enough to slow down the pass and stop the run, but they had to be good at both.

This might make sense. Offensive innovation usually precedes defensive adjustment, so perhaps coaching, system, scheme, play-calling and development make more of a difference for the offense. Defense might be swayed more by pure athleticism and ready-made talent.

This means you have to get the great players on defense, but on offense you can recruit more to your scheme and develop them. 

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2016/2/1/10867816/ncaa-football-recruting-rankings-impact

[hogsanity]

This might make sense. Offensive innovation usually precedes defensive adjustment, so perhaps coaching, system, scheme, play-calling and development make more of a difference for the offense. Defense might be swayed more by pure athleticism and ready-made talent.

This means you have to get the great players on defense, but on offense you can recruit more to your scheme and develop them. 

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2016/2/1/10867816/ncaa-football-recruting-rankings-impact

Which is why the Hogs offense can be pretty good with a lot of in state players, but the defense never is going to be very good without landing high quality guys from out of state.

[RazorWest]

Which is why the Hogs offense can be pretty good with a lot of in state players, but the defense never is going to be very good without landing high quality guys from out of state.

So if all these things are true and Arkansas hasn't and likely won't be getting great defensive talent based off passed history, does Arkansas need a BP or a Chad Kelly, or someone with an Elite offensive mind to be consistently successful and make up for the defensive liability?

[Pork Twain]

So if all these things are true and Arkansas hasn't and likely won't be getting great defensive talent based off passed history, does Arkansas need a BP or a Chad Kelly, or someone with an Elite offensive mind to be consistently successful and make up for the defensive liability?

Even one of those guys would have a difficult time sustaining success with a high miss-rate and lack of defensive recruiting.  There is too much quality defense in the SEC to assume you will outscore everyone.  Recruiting will not change, so the best we can hope for is a coach and staff that can evaluate talent and recruit high-quality young men that will not wash out in the first two years and can be developed into studs.  That can happen but it takes time.

[Youngsta71701]

I watched "Before They Were Cowboys" last night on the SEC Network. The Razorbacks went 5-5 in 1963 then came back and went undefeated the next year with basically the same players and they shut out the last 5 regular season opponents. That's coaching, development, and senior leadership. If you can't do those things you might as well not come be the Head Coach at the U of A. That's about all we can do since we can't consistently get the best players. If we want to win we have to have a great head coach and a great DC that can develop and motitvate. That's why Coach Smith has to step his game up or get gone. Our defensive players have regressed the past two years with him as the DC.

[Pork Twain]

I watched "Before They Were Cowboys" last night on the SEC Network. The Razorbacks went 5-5 in 1963 then came back and went undefeated the next year with basically the same players and they shut out the last 5 regular season opponents. That's coaching, development, and senior leadership. If you can't do those things you might as well not come be the Head Coach at the U of A. That's about all we can do since we can't consistently get the best players. If we want to win we have to have a great head coach and a great DC that can develop and motitvate. That's why Coach Smith has to step his game up or get gone. Our defensive players have regressed the past two years with him as the DC.

I think it is unwise to compare anything about 1960's Arkansas to 2010's Arkansas.  I do think Smith has a LOT to prove.

[Youngsta71701]

Just a little bit of Natural State recruiting info...

https://arkansas.rivals.com/news/the-natural-21-16

The players I like are as follows:
1. Montaric Brown- S
2. Akial Byers- DT
3. Kolian Jackson- WR/ATH
4. Jarrod Barnes- ATH
5. Kirby Adcock- OL
6. David Porter- DE/OLB
7. Monta Thomas- ATH
8. Taylor Powell- QB
9. Jonathan Adams- WR/ATH
10. Tre Norwood- CB
11. Joshua Johnson- WR
12. Darius Hopkins- ATH
13. Hayden Henry- S/OLB
14. Marvin Moody- OLB

JMO...Hayden Henry and Marvin Moody are way under the radar.
These are the players I have seen for myself.

[Youngsta71701]

I think it is unwise to compare anything about 1960's Arkansas to 2010's Arkansas.  I do think Smith has a LOT to prove.

Yeah, you got a point there. I guess I'm just referring to Arkansas Football in general. But how do you go from 5-5 to undefeated without superior development, great coaching/motivation and leadership?

[Pork Twain]

My wife says I have spent way too much time on this thread, but F her, she is not a hog fan. 

I was curious how we stacked up in athletic department revenue and Stadium capacity.  It seems like top-25 all-time program and top-25 recruiting classes usually only land us at about #7-9 in the SEC.

Oddly enough we are top 25 nationally in stadium capacity and that gets us 9th in the SEC and we are top 20 in revenue and that lands us at 9th in the SEC.  At least we consistently rank about 9th in every category in the SEC.

Yet many fans think we are top tier, should be a quick rebuild, and should be finishing in the top annually.

[Youngsta71701]

My wife says I have spent way too much time on this thread, but F her, she is not a hog fan. 

I was curious how we stacked up in athletic department revenue and Stadium capacity.  It seems like top-25 all-time program and top-25 recruiting classes usually only land us at about #7-9 in the SEC.

Oddly enough we are top 25 nationally in stadium capacity and that gets us 9th in the SEC and we are top 20 in revenue and that lands us at 9th in the SEC.  At least we consistently rank about 9th in every category in the SEC.

I keep telling everyone we need to go back to the Big12 formerly known as the SWC...

[hogsanity]

My wife says I have spent way too much time on this thread, but F her, she is not a hog fan. 

I was curious how we stacked up in athletic department revenue and Stadium capacity.  It seems like top-25 all-time program and top-25 recruiting classes usually only land us at about #7-9 in the SEC.

Oddly enough we are top 25 nationally in stadium capacity and that gets us 9th in the SEC and we are top 20 in revenue and that lands us at 9th in the SEC.  At least we consistently rank about 9th in every category in the SEC.

I seem to remember a great football coach turned great AD saying something about being about that in the sec and getting roasted for it.

[hawgtime]

The 11 & 12 classes pretty much blow up the " win and they will come " line of thought. 21-5, bcs bowl appearance and a dominating cotton bowl win, resulted in classes ranked 21st and 28th which were 9th and 10th in the sec.

that is what i was thinking. 

so really our recruiting hasn't improved and relatively stayed the same with only slightly lower win totals in the CBB years.  all i want for christmas is more impact players to go along with the "quality" depth CBB is building!

[Youngsta71701]

The 11 & 12 classes pretty much blow up the " win and they will come " line of thought. 21-5, bcs bowl appearance and a dominating cotton bowl win, resulted in classes ranked 21st and 28th which were 9th and 10th in the sec.

Winning doesn't hurt that's for sure. Plus it just feels better...

[311Hog]

For us to overcome our recruiting issues and to "rise" in the rankings it would take winning on a level never seen here.

That is the part i don't think some understand.  Because of alot of factors Arkansas has settled into a particular section of the recruiting rankings.  And we are so far settled into our position that even with extra effort and success we can only move 1 or 2 spots in either direction.  Good work we move up to 19-25 range, bad results we slide into the 30's but we always remain in the middle to bottom in the SEC.

Basically the teams above us have to try to fail for us to succeed.  Because they have all the factors covered in spades.

1. HoF Coach
2. Located in the heart of prime recruiting territory
3. Local demographics are conducive to producing quality football talent
4. Fan base support and $$$ boosters
5. Also top notch facilities

If you have these 5 things unless you cheat/get caught you will never "fail" at recruiting so there is a "hard" ceiling for programs that don't have these 5 things, and that is us.  So unless the following 5 things happen AR will never have a top 10 recruiting class.

1. Hire Urban Meyer/Nick Saban or win the powerball and score the "next Urban Meyer/Nick Saban"
2. Wait for the continued growth of NWA to reach comparable population densities the other "top" schools enjoy
3. Hope that the new people in the area are athletic by nature
4. Continued support and $$ we got this part
5. Top notch facilities we got this part to.

So basically AR has the last 2 factors and are not close in the top 3 but still manage to score a Top 25 recruiting class.  And some actually believe we should be able to crack the Top 10 as we are now.... That blows my mind honestly.

[Hardcore Hoggy]

For us to overcome our recruiting issues and to "rise" in the rankings it would take winning on a level never seen here.

That is the part i don't think some understand.  Because of alot of factors Arkansas has settled into a particular section of the recruiting rankings.  And we are so far settled into our position that even with extra effort and success we can only move 1 or 2 spots in either direction.  Good work we move up to 19-25 range, bad results we slide into the 30's but we always remain in the middle to bottom in the SEC.

Basically the teams above us have to try to fail for us to succeed.  Because they have all the factors covered in spades.

1. HoF Coach
2. Located in the heart of prime recruiting territory
3. Local demographics are conducive to producing quality football talent
4. Fan base support and $$$ boosters
5. Also top notch facilities

If you have these 5 things unless you cheat/get caught you will never "fail" at recruiting so there is a "hard" ceiling for programs that don't have these 5 things, and that is us.  So unless the following 5 things happen AR will never have a top 10 recruiting class.

1. Hire Urban Meyer/Nick Saban or win the powerball and score the "next Urban Meyer/Nick Saban"
2. Wait for the continued growth of NWA to reach comparable population densities the other "top" schools enjoy
3. Hope that the new people in the area are athletic by nature
4. Continued support and $$ we got this part
5. Top notch facilities we got this part to.

So basically AR has the last 2 factors and are not close in the top 3 but still manage to score a Top 25 recruiting class.  And some actually believe we should be able to crack the Top 10 as we are now.... That blows my mind honestly.

Very true.

We have to accept that it is what it is when it comes to recruiting.

The only stipulation being that we should ALWAYS sign the top in state players, regardless of need, regardless of position. It is imperative that we defend our home turf.

and while we will likely never have a top 5 recruiting class, 25-30 classes shouldn't result in being just under .500

[hogsanity]

Very true.

We have to accept that it is what it is when it comes to recruiting.

The only stipulation being that we should ALWAYS sign the top in state players, regardless of need, regardless of position. It is imperative that we defend our home turf.

and while we will likely never have a top 5 recruiting class, 25-30 classes shouldn't result in being just under .500

But classes ranked 25-20 are often 10th or worse in out own league. That is the problem.

[Youngsta71701]

Very true.

We have to accept that it is what it is when it comes to recruiting.

The only stipulation being that we should ALWAYS sign the top in state players, regardless of need, regardless of position. It is imperative that we defend our home turf.

and while we will likely never have a top 5 recruiting class, 25-30 classes shouldn't result in being just under .500

1. You should accept nothing but the best.
2. I agree with the defending your home turf statement.
3. I agree that we should be no less than 4-4 in the SEC every year with our classes. We might not be top 5 but our classes are good enough to win at least half of our ball games.

[Youngsta71701]

My bad...I meant offense. Fixed it for ya.

[311Hog]

Well for me it comes down to this.  The reason we lost to Missouri wasn't because of talent.  The reason we lost to VT wasn't because of talent.

Our talent level, recruiting level affords us the capability of being "in" every game save maybe Bama on the road.  We lost games this year because of things other than pure football talent.  Lack of heart, lack of leadership?, lack of coaching?

If we lose a game because the other team is simply overwhelmingly more talented then us but we play hard and sound i can totally live and understand that.

[hogsanity]

Hogs sign the 9th or 10th best class in the sec year after year ( which is still top 20ish nationally ) but some of you still want to act like they have just as much talent as everyone else in the league except Bama. Your heads could not be further in the sand if you tried.

[hogcard1964]

Hogs sign the 9th or 10th best class in the sec year after year ( which is still top 20ish nationally ) but some of you still want to act like they have just as much talent as everyone else in the league except Bama. Your heads could not be further in the sand if you tried.

This is an area he's going to have to make great strides in.  It shouldn't be too much to expect us to be in the middle of the SEC in recruiting.  Hell we should actually expect more.