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Author Topic: This business of a coach developing is  (Read 889 times)

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Piggfoot

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This business of a coach developing is
« on: October 11, 2017, 06:21:18 pm »

Malarkey. I'm sure many of you saw the movie "Greater", the Bio of Brandon Burlesworth. If you paid attention to the story line, Brandon's development came from his personal hard work, determination and grit. Hardwork and dedication that he put forth on his on, not in practice drills orchestrated by his coaches. True his coaches finally recognized his talent. But it took several seasons for him to transform his baby fat body. I believe every bit of it.
Some players coming out of high school have a tremendous physical advantage and against opponents who are physically and mentally didadvantaged. It is many times an illusion that they are a four or five star player.
Was Mitch Mustain a true five star or was he the recipient of the talents of Damian Williams. I believe the latter was true.
 In the Arkansas State championship game, Williams overpowered the D backs creating great separation. It didn't require a great quarterback to get the ball to him. Yet, in the stats  Mustain was given credit for a pass completion.
I believe Bielema may be correct in his statement that the players have not developed into SEC talent. But he recruited them. If I can find fault it is in giving them too much time to become players. I know it is frowned upon to drop a players scholarship.
I don't have the answer to the process of getting a nonperforming player a transfer and giving his scholarship to another player. I don't think it is as simple as we may think.
Summing things up a Coach gets too much credit for a players excellent develop and play and too much blame when things don't work out.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 06:29:54 pm »

Malarkey. I'm sure many of you saw the movie "Greater", the Bio of Brandon Burlesworth. If you paid attention to the story line, Brandon's development came from his personal hard work, determination and grit. Hardwork and dedication that he put forth on his on, not in practice drills orchestrated by his coaches. True his coaches finally recognized his talent. But it took several seasons for him to transform his baby fat body. I believe every bit of it.
Some players coming out of high school have a tremendous physical advantage and against opponents who are physically and mentally didadvantaged. It is many times an illusion that they are a four or five star player.
Was Mitch Mustain a true five star or was he the recipient of the talents of Damian Williams. I believe the latter was true.
 In the Arkansas State championship game, Williams overpowered the D backs creating great separation. It didn't require a great quarterback to get the ball to him. Yet, in the stats  Mustain was given credit for a pass completion.
I believe Bielema may be correct in his statement that the players have not developed into SEC talent. But he recruited them. If I can find fault it is in giving them too much time to become players. I know it is frowned upon to drop a players scholarship.
I don't have the answer to the process of getting a nonperforming player a transfer and giving his scholarship to another player. I don't think it is as simple as we may think.
Summing things up a Coach gets too much credit for a players excellent develop and play and too much blame when things don't work out.

There is responsibility for a player developing, on both sides of the equation. In Burlsworth's case, he was a walk on and yes he dedicated himself to greater than normal commitment to developing himself, but the staff wasn't entirely absent in that case. As a coach or a teacher, if you see a kid putting forth extreme extra effort you will normally rush to help that kid who is making more sacrifices than his more talented peers. If everyone (scholarship player or not) at every position, put forth the level of dedication and effort that Burlsworth did, you would have a team that is pretty hard to beat. But that usually isn't the case.
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hoglady

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 06:40:34 pm »

I don't know - My kid always got better when she had good coaching.
She played travel softball, AAU basketball and JO Volleyball.

Yes - the person has to put in the work at any level.
But teaching technique, drills, weight and endurance training certainly makes a difference.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 06:58:24 pm »

I don't know - My kid always got better when she had good coaching.
She played travel softball, AAU basketball and JO Volleyball.

Yes - the person has to put in the work at any level.
But teaching technique, drills, weight and endurance training certainly makes a difference.

Excellent, top level coaching makes a difference, no doubt about it. But some kids are more committed and receptive than others. Sometimes kids are better than they seem and sometimes, they have been evaluated to be better than they are. Those six inches between the ears are really important in this. Not just the ability to learn, but the attitude, drive and dedication that accompanies that ability. All kids that play college ball get better and develop with time, whether walk-ons, 2 stars, 3 stars or even 4 and 5 stars. How much they develop does have to do with the level of coaching, but it also has a great deal to do with their attitude, commitment and willingness to be coached and learn. That's why you see some highly recruited 3 and 4 stars not make it Alabama. They have pretty good coaching over there.
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Piggfoot

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 07:10:31 pm »

There is responsibility for a player developing, on both sides of the equation. In Burlsworth's case, he was a walk on and yes he dedicated himself to greater than normal commitment to developing himself, but the staff wasn't entirely absent in that case. As a coach or a teacher, if you see a kid putting forth extreme extra effort you will normally rush to help that kid who is making more sacrifices than his more talented peers. If everyone (scholarship player or not) at every position, put forth the level of dedication and effort that Burlsworth did, you would have a team that is pretty hard to beat. But that usually isn't the case.
I'm not discounting the value of a good coach in the motivation of a player. Nor am I discounting a coach that offers positive encouragement, and one that sets realistic goals for a player to achieve. The motivational tools a coach uses varies from coach to coach . Obviously some are better than others. Also a motivational tool that is effective for one player may not be effective for all. Hopefully a good coach can find the right switch which turns on a players light bulb.
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tusked

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 07:10:44 pm »


Coaching is everything.  You need some players but coaching is more important.
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Piggfoot

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 08:09:37 pm »

Coaching is everything.  You need some players but coaching is more important.
I'm sorry you feel that way coach. You need more than "some" players. You need the right kind of players. Nick Saban won no National championships or Super Bowls at Michigan and Miami.
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ChicoHog

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 08:36:47 pm »

Coaching is everything.  You need some players but coaching is more important.
Completely disagree.  You gotta have "Dudes" like David Pollak says.  Especially on defense.  Clemson and Alabama are loaded with "dudes".   Offense is a little different.  Teaching is more important.  Defense is 90% athletic ability, especially on the line. 
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lakecityhog

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 08:41:37 pm »

Burlsworth made the personal sacrifice and commitment to change HIS body, the coaches made him a better O'Lineman.

Anyone that even begins to think that coaching doesn't contribute as much or probably more than the player is simply fooling themselves!
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Roaringboar

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 08:46:51 pm »

Malarkey. I'm sure many of you saw the movie "Greater", the Bio of Brandon Burlesworth. If you paid attention to the story line, Brandon's development came from his personal hard work, determination and grit. Hardwork and dedication that he put forth on his on, not in practice drills orchestrated by his coaches. True his coaches finally recognized his talent. But it took several seasons for him to transform his baby fat body. I believe every bit of it.
Some players coming out of high school have a tremendous physical advantage and against opponents who are physically and mentally didadvantaged. It is many times an illusion that they are a four or five star player.
Was Mitch Mustain a true five star or was he the recipient of the talents of Damian Williams. I believe the latter was true.
 In the Arkansas State championship game, Williams overpowered the D backs creating great separation. It didn't require a great quarterback to get the ball to him. Yet, in the stats  Mustain was given credit for a pass completion.
I believe Bielema may be correct in his statement that the players have not developed into SEC talent. But he recruited them. If I can find fault it is in giving them too much time to become players. I know it is frowned upon to drop a players scholarship.
I don't have the answer to the process of getting a nonperforming player a transfer and giving his scholarship to another player. I don't think it is as simple as we may think.
Summing things up a Coach gets too much credit for a players excellent develop and play and too much blame when things don't work out.

Oh, I see, so like Bielema you're blaming the players on this one....they just don't work hard enough, they aren't trying hard enough.....it's the kids fault and Bielema and his staff deserve no blame.........that's ridiculous......no, if it had nothing to do with the coaches, then everyone would be about equal every single year because all of these kids work hard.....no a coach brings in different ways of training players, different ideas, different ways to motivate and use talent.....it varries from program to program, coach to coach........the coach does matter alot, and sure the players matter too, but it's the coaches job to develop the talent......Bielema has simply failed at that job.....so sick of us blaming the players......the fact is they act like they don't know what to do, and that comes from the coaches......
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Roaringboar

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 08:49:27 pm »

I'm sorry you feel that way coach. You need more than "some" players. You need the right kind of players. Nick Saban won no National championships or Super Bowls at Michigan and Miami.

No, but then again that was MICHIGAN STATE he went too, and guess what, that school was very sub-par when he took over.......if you're argument is valid, it's just the players, then there would never be an upset because the talented players at the big schools would always crush the kids from the smaller schools who are considered by scouts to be lesser players......well, tell that to Iowa State and Michigan State, the COACHES came up with the game-plan to success, and the players followed it because they were TRAINED and COACHED how to follow it......
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Piggfoot

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2017, 08:59:17 am »

No, but then again that was MICHIGAN STATE he went too, and guess what, that school was very sub-par when he took over.......if you're argument is valid, it's just the players, then there would never be an upset because the talented players at the big schools would always crush the kids from the smaller schools who are considered by scouts to be lesser players......well, tell that to Iowa State and Michigan State, the COACHES came up with the game-plan to success, and the players followed it because they were TRAINED and COACHED how to follow it......
Did I say anything about training or coaching? When Lou Holtz beat Oklahoma in the Orange bowl, the Razorbacks were inspired because Lou had fired some players. Now the rest of the story. Thomas Lock's Mother was an assistant of mine she told me before the game that Arkansas would win because Oklahoma was not preparing for the game, they were staying out late and partying, her son included, the Oklahoma quarterback. They over estimated Arkansas and as a result were beaten. It little to do with coaching.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 09:38:03 am by Piggfoot »
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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2017, 09:55:14 am »

Brandon Allen under Jim Chaney compared to Brandon Allen under Dan Enos is all the proof I need that coaching is as big as hard work/talent.
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hawgon

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2017, 10:01:42 am »

It depends.  If a player never gets to see the field or get the practice time because of some standard that may or may not be arbitrary, then he never gets the chance to develop himself.

FANONTHEHILL said in one of his posts that footwork and technique were being emphasized to the point that some very talented players could not get off the bench.  That tells you something right there. 

We have guys who are not playing because they can't get something technical down but the guys in the games are getting abused to the point that technique goes out the window.  Maybe we just need to throw some of these talented guys who can't seem to get some of the technical stuff down in practice out there and see what happens.  If the guys playing are so out talented that technique goes out the window, what does it matter if one of them has better footwork in practice than a guy on the bench?
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hog.goblin

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2017, 10:24:25 am »

Malarkey. I'm sure many of you saw the movie "Greater", the Bio of Brandon Burlesworth. If you paid attention to the story line, Brandon's development came from his personal hard work, determination and grit. Hardwork and dedication that he put forth on his on, not in practice drills orchestrated by his coaches. True his coaches finally recognized his talent. But it took several seasons for him to transform his baby fat body. I believe every bit of it.
Some players coming out of high school have a tremendous physical advantage and against opponents who are physically and mentally didadvantaged. It is many times an illusion that they are a four or five star player.
Was Mitch Mustain a true five star or was he the recipient of the talents of Damian Williams. I believe the latter was true.
 In the Arkansas State championship game, Williams overpowered the D backs creating great separation. It didn't require a great quarterback to get the ball to him. Yet, in the stats  Mustain was given credit for a pass completion.
I believe Bielema may be correct in his statement that the players have not developed into SEC talent. But he recruited them. If I can find fault it is in giving them too much time to become players. I know it is frowned upon to drop a players scholarship.
I don't have the answer to the process of getting a nonperforming player a transfer and giving his scholarship to another player. I don't think it is as simple as we may think.
Summing things up a Coach gets too much credit for a players excellent develop and play and too much blame when things don't work out.

The problem is you are relying on a movie instead of football reality.  Burlsworth didn’t come in with baby fat or a ton of weight as portrayed in the move.  He was making a name for himself much earlier too.

You are right that personal dedication and work ethic is vital.  But it’s useless without technique and is helped by motivation.
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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2017, 10:31:40 am »

It depends.  If a player never gets to see the field or get the practice time because of some standard that may or may not be arbitrary, then he never gets the chance to develop himself.

FANONTHEHILL said in one of his posts that footwork and technique were being emphasized to the point that some very talented players could not get off the bench.  That tells you something right there. 

We have guys who are not playing because they can't get something technical down but the guys in the games are getting abused to the point that technique goes out the window.  Maybe we just need to throw some of these talented guys who can't seem to get some of the technical stuff down in practice out there and see what happens.  If the guys playing are so out talented that technique goes out the window, what does it matter if one of them has better footwork in practice than a guy on the bench?
So basically they are taking technique over ability. The guy they are putting on the field has fantastic technique but doesn't have the ability to make it worthwhile whereas the player that isn't on the field could close the technique gap by using his physical abilities.
The technique player is a moral victory while the physically talented player is an ugly win. Which would you choose
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Hoggish1

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2017, 10:35:02 am »



FANONTHEHILL said in one of his posts that footwork and technique were being emphasized to the point that some very talented players could not get off the bench.  That tells you something right there. 



It tells me that coach shot himself in the foot.
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hawgon

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 10:37:26 am »

So basically they are taking technique over ability. The guy they are putting on the field has fantastic technique but doesn't have the ability to make it worthwhile whereas the player that isn't on the field could close the technique gap by using his physical abilities.
The technique player is a moral victory while the physically talented player is an ugly win. Which would you choose

I agree, but Bert has a bias for the guy with less talent who makes up for it with great technique because that is what he was.  The thing is, this isn't 1989 and the Iowa Hawkeyes.  This is the SEC and some huge and insanely fast defensive lineman who couldn't spell "cat" if you spotted him the C and the T will stick you great technique up your bunghole if you don't have the talent to back it up.
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Piggfoot

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2017, 11:03:29 am »

The problem is you are relying on a movie instead of football reality.  Burlsworth didn’t come in with baby fat or a ton of weight as portrayed in the move.  He was making a name for himself much earlier too.

You are right that personal dedication and work ethic is vital.  But it’s useless without technique and is helped by motivation.
The point I was trying to make is he transformed himself not the coaches. If that is untrue then the movie and story is a farce.
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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2017, 11:14:17 am »

The point I was trying to make is he transformed himself not the coaches. If that is untrue then the movie and story is a farce.
Theres this magical place out on the west coast called Hollywood. You should google it
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DeltaBoy

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 11:16:36 am »

It takes both.
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Polecat

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2017, 11:16:42 am »

nm
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tusked

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2017, 11:18:13 am »


If coaching wasn't important then why do programs flourish more under one coach vs another?

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Vantage 8 dude

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2017, 01:39:39 pm »

I'm sorry you feel that way coach. You need more than "some" players. You need the right kind of players. Nick Saban won no National championships or Super Bowls at Michigan and Miami.
Gosh, did I miss something? Ole Nick secretly coached the MMMEEEECCCHHHIIIGGGANN Wolverines ??? I seriously doubt their blood instate rivals-the Michigan State Spartans-would necessarily agree. >:(
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Vantage 8 dude

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2017, 01:41:50 pm »

It takes both.
Bingo. And I strongly suspect that anyone who honestly believes that BOTH factors aren't involved is once again sniffing model glue.
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Piggfoot

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2017, 01:50:57 pm »

Gosh, did I miss something? Ole Nick secretly coached the MMMEEEECCCHHHIIIGGGANN Wolverines ??? I seriously doubt their blood instate rivals-the Michigan State Spartans-would necessarily agree. >:(
So I left out the "state". The point I was trying to make is he didn't set the world on fire in the big ten and in Michigan.
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Vantage 8 dude

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2017, 02:09:03 pm »

So I left out the "state". The point I was trying to make is he didn't set the world on fire in the big ten and in Michigan.
Well you may have mistakenly left out the "State; however, it does make a difference as to where he indeed coached while up there. And as far as his not winning any NCs there or Super Bowls while at Miami, you could say that about a TON of coaches (in fact far more than not). In the end, however, he most certainly has a 'Bama and there's no argument about THAT and few, if any, can dispute he CAN also coach/recruit.
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lakecityhog

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2017, 06:33:51 pm »

 to teach and train (an athlete or performer)
 to teach, train, and direct (a sports team)

to train intensively (as by instruction and demonstration)

one who instructs players in the fundamentals of a sport and directs team strategy

Without teaching and training how would anyone expect a player to develop???
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Vantage 8 dude

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2017, 06:42:52 pm »

to teach and train (an athlete or performer)
 to teach, train, and direct (a sports team)

to train intensively (as by instruction and demonstration)

one who instructs players in the fundamentals of a sport and directs team strategy

Without teaching and training how would anyone expect a player to develop???
But, but....don't you know that it's TOTALLY on the player? I mean ole Nick and staff down at Alabama don't do a damn thing all day week long, season or not, other than just look at film of recruits. They just sign all the four and five stars they want to sit back each Saturday and marvel how all the high school level talent just automatically learns and adjusts to the college game. All that malarky about "the college game is played at a different speed, different level" is obviously just a ploy to fool ADs and fans into thinking any coaches' job is actually more difficult and complicated than it is. And as far as actually COACHING, teaching offensive and defensive schemes, making in-game adjustments well that's just bunk as well.

In the end it really makes me wonder why he, or any other person for that matter, has "COACH" attached to his name. Obviously it's just a traditional thing.
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hog.goblin

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2017, 07:04:52 pm »

The point I was trying to make is he transformed himself not the coaches. If that is untrue then the movie and story is a farce.

Much of it was a farce (transforming his body and much of his naiveness), but the main point was accurate (hard work, never give up, underdog story).
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12247

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Re: This business of a coach developing is
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2017, 08:36:36 pm »

A video tape or CD can coach if you are interested in learning from it.  The very first thing a coach needs to be is a leader.  Lead by example.  Don't fall asleep in the film room.  Be there early and stay late.  Never miss an opportunity to teach and train.  Show that you refuse to be denied, have fire in your belly and dress like you expect your team to play.  Look and exhibit fairness but also firmness.  Gain the total respect from your charges.  When wrong, not only admit it but hold yourself to the same level you hold the players to, correct it and learn from it.  Humans have off days but that is no excuse for getting to play in a football game just because you were assigned a starter.  No produce, no play.  Remind the players that one of your main jobs is to provide the best team possible on the field on game day. 

Being able to know what wins football games and getting that training to the players is very important but leadership is and will always be the key to fielding a team that plays near its max talent level. 

I believe Bret fails to show the leadership necessary to field a maxed out team and then all else is lost.

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