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The Cupboard Was Never Bare

Started by Boss Hog in the Arkansas, October 11, 2017, 11:23:05 am

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PorkRinds

Quote from: EastexHawg on October 11, 2017, 04:10:59 pm
Why do some of you keep claiming Bielema was left with a bare cupboard?  Did you not take a look at the defensive lineup I just posted halfway up this page? 

On the other side of the ball, off the top of my head he was left:

QB  Brandon Allen
RB  Jonathan Williams
FB  Kiero Small/Kody Walker
WR Keon Hatcher
WR Mekale McKay
TE  Jeremy Sprinkle
OL  Brey Cook
OL  Mitch Smothers
OL  Luke Charpentier 
C  Travis Swanson

K  Zach Hocker
P  Toby Baker

Keep in mind 2013 was the second season after Petrino left.  Among those on the team the first season after he was fired, 2012, were Tyler Wilson, Knile Davis, Dennis Johnson, Cobi Hamilton, Alvin Bailey, and Chris Gragg.  Those guys didn't play for Bielema, but how can anyone claim Petrino left behind a "bare cupboard"?

How many NFL, All-American, All-SEC, SEC Player of the Week, and multi-year starters does a coach need to leave behind to qualify for not leaving a bare cupboard?

Again, you're ignoring the depth issue. Ten guys doesn't make an SEC capable offense.

hogsanity

Quote from: EastexHawg on October 11, 2017, 04:10:59 pm
Why do some of you keep claiming Bielema was left with a bare cupboard?  Did you not take a look at the defensive lineup I just posted halfway up this page? 

On the other side of the ball, off the top of my head he was left:

QB  Brandon Allen
RB  Jonathan Williams
FB  Kiero Small/Kody Walker
WR Keon Hatcher
WR Mekale McKay
TE  Jeremy Sprinkle
OL  Brey Cook
OL  Mitch Smothers
OL  Luke Charpentier 
C  Travis Swanson

K  Zach Hocker
P  Toby Baker

Keep in mind 2013 was the second season after Petrino left.  Among those on the team the first season after he was fired, 2012, were Tyler Wilson, Knile Davis, Dennis Johnson, Cobi Hamilton, Alvin Bailey, and Chris Gragg.  Those guys didn't play for Bielema, but how can anyone claim Petrino left behind a "bare cupboard"?

How many NFL, All-American, All-SEC, SEC Player of the Week, and multi-year starters does a coach need to leave behind to qualify for not leaving a bare cupboard?


How much chapstick do you go through from kissing BP's backside? How'd you like him already pissing away U:'s season with the reigning Heisman winner because, big shock, his D sucks and he can't beat the top of his league.

People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

 

EastexHawg

Quote from: PorkRinds on October 11, 2017, 04:14:12 pm
Again, you’re ignoring the depth issue. Ten guys doesn’t make an SEC capable offense.

There were 85 on the roster.  I'm just naming potential starting lineups.  That doesn't mean they were the only players in the program, but I bet you know that.

How many players does Bielema play?  How many snaps did any QB not named Brandon Allen get?  Hasn't that been one of the complaints made over and over on this board, that he doesn't get the backups any experience?  How many offensive linemen has he played over the years? 

azhog10

Quote from: PorkRinds on October 11, 2017, 04:01:00 pm
Well, except offer him playing time at WR.
HE WAS A QB!!!!! CBB has been notorious for moving guys around constantly from one position to another. The guy was going to be the starting QB for an offense that would have been one of the best in college football if Petrino was here. I understand that CBP wasn't here, but BM wasn't going to move to WR and CBB knew that.

311Hog

out of that list i think only Swanson is a legit NFL starter.  Some of those you mention are out of the league already, even on our sidelines as GA's i believe.

azhog10

Quote from: 311Hog on October 11, 2017, 04:44:35 pm
out of that list i think only Swanson is a legit NFL starter.  Some of those you mention are out of the league already, even on our sidelines as GA's i believe.
At least they made it there. We won't have that many guys playing in the NFL that are CBB players. Collins and who else were CBB recruits? Ragnow on this team now is the only legit NFL type player.

Ex-Trumpet

Quote from: azhog10 on October 11, 2017, 04:46:08 pm
At least they made it there. We won't have that many guys playing in the NFL that are CBB players. Collins and who else were CBB recruits? Ragnow on this team now is the only legit NFL type player.

WAY too early to tell with a lot of the young guys.
Do dyslexic, agnostic insomniacs lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog?

311Hog

Quote from: azhog10 on October 11, 2017, 04:46:08 pm
At least they made it there. We won't have that many guys playing in the NFL that are CBB players. Collins and who else were CBB recruits? Ragnow on this team now is the only legit NFL type player.
im just saying that to act like Petrino was playing with NFL talent is kinda incorrect when almost everyone mentioned on that list safe Swanson was a practice squad couple years out of the league, hell 2 are kickers.  Still good but the point is still the same.  AR has a bracket of talent with which to work, it is not going to change.

also when i look at our squad for CBB, Ragnow and Agim are the only legit NFL guys i see.

cjack

It's crazy that even though most of the state wants CBB gone, he still gets a pass for going winless in the SEC.  Again,  John L. was here between Petrino and Bielema.  Same cupboard that everyone is talking about on here.  Arguably, he was one of the worst coaches we've ever had, but he won 2 SEC games.  Petrino can't get credit for John L. stumbling into 2 wins and then get blame for Bielema winning none.  Can't go both ways.
Woooo Pig Soooie!

Dwight_K_Shrute

Quote from: Jim Harris on October 11, 2017, 02:17:13 pm
If all this "showing up 15 minutes for meeting with shoes tied on right" correlated into 9-win seasons and at least regularly contending for 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West, it would make sense. It seems like some players aren't buying it anymore. I mean, they're showing up on time, they're just not buying that it means anything.

Exactly if you don't have the coaching chops, the real bite, or the results to back it up, kids figure it out pretty quick.
Little known fact, but prior to settling on Guantanamo, the Pentagon wanted to house terror suspects at War Memorial Stadium.  It was deemed to be cruel and unusual punishment and in violation of the Geneva Convention.

EastexHawg

Quote from: hogsanity on October 11, 2017, 04:15:06 pm
How much chapstick do you go through from kissing BP's backside? How'd you like him already pissing away U:'s season with the reigning Heisman winner because, big shock, his D sucks and he can't beat the top of his league.

It takes plenty of time to refute the BS that Bielema enablers first make up and then spew as if it is fact.  Some anonymous SEC says four years ago that there was no defensive line talent left and someone on this board posts it again today in an attempt to defend our failed coach... completely ignoring the fact that among those left were the two biggest playmaker DL on the Patriots and at least three more currently playing in the league.

The main problems some of you have with me are (a) I look at facts, not groupthink narratives; and (b) I pay attention and have a good memory.

RazorPiggie

Quote from: EastexHawg on October 11, 2017, 04:58:42 pm
It takes plenty of time to refute the BS that Bielema enablers first make up and then spew as if it is fact.  Some anonymous SEC says four years ago that there was no defensive line talent left and someone on this board posts it again today in an attempt to defend our failed coach... completely ignoring the fact that among those left were the two biggest playmaker DL on the Patriots and at least three more currently playing in the league.

The main problems some of you have with me are (a) I look at facts, not groupthink narratives; and (b) I pay attention and have a good memory.

Who gets credit for developing them?

snoblind


 

Dwight_K_Shrute

Quote from: MCOOK74 on October 11, 2017, 05:09:31 pm
One of those former players on the sideline as a GA had 2 broken vertebrae and his surgery was actually 2 years ago this week. Just an FYI...

Kids give so much to the school and the game.  Hope he is doing well and although it's a rocky season hope he is making the most of his opportunity as a GA.  Like seeing guys come back and get that opportunity.
Little known fact, but prior to settling on Guantanamo, the Pentagon wanted to house terror suspects at War Memorial Stadium.  It was deemed to be cruel and unusual punishment and in violation of the Geneva Convention.

From Tusk Till Dawn

Quote from: cjack on October 11, 2017, 04:53:14 pm
It's crazy that even though most of the state wants CBB gone, he still gets a pass for going winless in the SEC.  Again,  John L. was here between Petrino and Bielema.  Same cupboard that everyone is talking about on here.  Arguably, he was one of the worst coaches we've ever had, but he won 2 SEC games.  Petrino can't get credit for John L. stumbling into 2 wins and then get blame for Bielema winning none.  Can't go both ways.
John L had more in the cupboard on offensive side of the ball, we were still loaded.  ( ex. Tyler Wilson and Cobi.) CBB was working with alot of underclassmen and a new system.  Still should have been better than a goosegg though. 

HoggyCat

Quote from: RazorPiggie on October 11, 2017, 11:36:12 am
Go look at the 2010 AND 2011 recruiting classes. It was bare. Sure we had some good players but you have to some halfway decent depth. Those guys should have been the upperclassmen during CBB first and second years but instead the underclassmen had to step up in a big way.

You had a coach that could evaluate properly and coach his players up. And you wanna talk bare recruiting classes, what's it gonna look like next year?  Bert only wants 18 this year... following all his years of never reaching 25 on signing day.
I'm only responsible for what I say, not how you perceive it.

PorkRinds

Quote from: azhog10 on October 11, 2017, 04:44:33 pm
HE WAS A QB!!!!! CBB has been notorious for moving guys around constantly from one position to another. The guy was going to be the starting QB for an offense that would have been one of the best in college football if Petrino was here. I understand that CBP wasn't here, but BM wasn't going to move to WR and CBB knew that.

Pretty sure Petrino had BA higher on the depth chart than him as well, so he wasn't ever all that close to starting under Prtrino.

toxichog

Look, it is totally fair to criticize Bielema for this years shortcomings.......especially the O-Line which is "supposed" to be his calling card.  But to say he inherited a great SEC caliber roster is pure revisionist history.........that year, Swanson, Small, Flowers and Philon were prime time SEC players.........the rest were forced into action before their time. 

factchecker

Quote from: GuvHog on October 11, 2017, 02:59:09 pm
BM was ready.  I saw his numbers and as I stated, he didn't play as many games as BA did due to injury.

I wonder what his rushing stats were at NCSU.

91 carries for 274 yards = 3.01 yards per carry
WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
EARN IT
OMAHOGS

factchecker

Quote from: EastexHawg on October 11, 2017, 03:32:48 pm
Bielema did run Peters off.  Brooks Ellis played in all 12 games, so he wasn't forced into action by Peters' broken arm.  Regarding Ellis, considering the team went 3-9 and 0-8 in conference anyway, can you explain the value that was achieved by burning his redshirt?  How much worse would we have been if he hadn't played?

Peters' broken arm happened during fall camp.  Peters didn't play until the 3rd game of the season.

Ellis had to play for depth.  He didn't get his first start until Auburn (9th game of the season).
WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
EARN IT
OMAHOGS

factchecker

Quote from: RazorPiggie on October 11, 2017, 03:31:55 pm
Grady Ollison Was so great as a Hog was able to transfer to Henderson State

Some will have you believe that he was the best offensive lineman on our team...... even though he ended up playing defensive line at a D2 school.
WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
EARN IT
OMAHOGS

12247

The cupboard was not 3-9 bare in 2013
The cupboard was not 7-6 bare in 2014
The cupboard was not 8-5 bare in 2015
The cupboard was not 7-6 bare in 2016
The cupboard is not as bare as it's being portrayed in 2017
SORRY

factchecker

Quote from: MCOOK74 on October 11, 2017, 05:40:27 pm
well, let's just say that I read HG daily to see what the fans had to say about their team.  If anything hurts recruiting... it's some of the posts these people put on this site.

I agree.  I think overall we have a great fanbase.  It's the fringe that treat the players like crap who ruin our image.
WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
EARN IT
OMAHOGS

Letsroll1200

If the cup is still bare after five years. Maybe its time to look at the person in charged of putting something in the cup. It's all on Bret now! He should resign.

 

Hoggiedawg

Premise of the OP is correct. Even CBB admitted that he came in and changed the philosophy/style of play that the players he inherited were recruited for.  Anyone saying different is a CBB fluffer.

HogHomer

Quote from: HoggyCat on October 11, 2017, 05:20:38 pm
You had a coach that could evaluate properly and coach his players up. And you wanna talk bare recruiting classes, what's it gonna look like next year?  Bert only wants 18 this year... following all his years of never reaching 25 on signing day.
Do you understand why we are only signing around 18 people?

Razorbax

I would bet the anonymous coach was Miles. He was defending the inept coaching by his buddy and then assistant Steve Kragthorpe.  We also know CBP owned him in 3 of the 4 games played and gave him a cussing for running up the score.
Quote from: EastexHawg on October 11, 2017, 02:59:00 pm
The point of those remarks from other coaches was that Petrino only cares about offense, doesn't recruit, and left Bielema nothing with which to work.  Time has proven that to be absolutely false.  Look at the lineup that could have been put on the field from what Petrino left behind:

DE  Trey Flowers
DE  Deatrich Wise/Chris Smith
DT  Darius Philon
DT  Robert Thomas/Taiwan Johnson
LB  Otha Peters
LB  Braylon Mitchell
CB  Tevin Mitchel
CB  Jared Collins
S  Rohan Gaines
S  Alan Turner

There were other pieces as well, such as JaMichael Winston.  On top of that are the players Petrino left behind on the 2012 team, including Alonzo Highsmith. 

All Bielema, or whoever followed him, had to do was add a couple of players here and there and he had himself a solid if not spectacular defense.  The defensive line talent was simply outstanding.  Anonymous "Coach", whoever he was, didn't know what he was talking about in that case.  In fact, I can't believe any Razorback fan who has actually paid attention would go back, dredge up those obviously false statements, and post them again.

Ask yourselves this question...since those guys left, has Bielema put any defenses on the field that can match them from a talent and/or performance perspective?

Roaringboar

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on October 11, 2017, 11:23:05 am
Bielema Went 3-9 in his 1st season here. Some of the excuses given by the fans were "the cupboard is bare", "He doesn't have the talent he needs", etc. Looking back, we wanted him to win so badly that we blinded ourselves to the truth: He was (and still is) in over his head.

Lets take a look at the Razorback turned NFL players that "didn't have the talent" Bret needed.

QB Brandon Allen
OT Brey Cook
FB Kiero Small
DE Trey Flowers
C Travis Swanson
K Zach Hocker
DE Chris Smith
CB Tevin Mitchell
RB Jonathan Williams
WR Keon Hatcher
LB Otha Peters
DT Darius Philon
DE Deatrich Wise
TE Jeremy Sprinkle
WR Mekale McKay
WR Demetrius Williams

I understand that many of these guys were young when bielema arrived but the 3 win season was and always will be completely unacceptable. Was/Is the problem talent or coaching?

You're absolutely right......he had the talent he needed to at win at least 8 games, excluding his first season (First season is a bit excusable since he was just getting here), and like a lot of Bielemers I backed him up those first couple of years saying, "Wait till year three when these freshmen have had three years of Bielema's coaching,".......Well, now here we are five years later and he's done nothing with really good talent.......Look at how we did Rafe Peavey and Ricky Towns......Those were two very talented QBs, and we just practically tossed them aside......and like right now, look at how we're doing T.J Hammonds......we moved him back to RB where he is barely being used, and he's really proven he's a talented player.......we're not really seeing Sosa get developed well, and there's obviously no coaching going on with our O-line........Bielema finished with like the 25th, 26th class last year, and it was higher the year before that.......What we are seeing is no development of the talent whatsoever, and for Bielema to get up and bash and blame the players is B.S.........
Let's all get aboard the LANE TRAIN BABY!!!! CHOOO-CHOOO!!!

The Kig

Quote from: hawgon on October 11, 2017, 11:27:55 am
BM was pushed out the door.  That's a fact.

Most BMs get pushed out a door.
Poker Porker

Razorbax

Since you have a hard 85 scholarship limit and accounting for redshirts, you cannot have more than 16~18 players stay in any given year. Considering 247 shows 37 enrollees, you could lose 20~23 and stay within the average.
Quote from: RazorPiggie on October 11, 2017, 03:06:53 pm
2010 Recruiting Class (according to Rivals)

Cam Feldt   OL   Pilot Point, TX   6'5"   290   4* (I think he ended up hurting his arm and never played for us)

Calvin Barnett   DT   Tulsa, OK   6'3"   330   4* never made it to campus

Jeremiah Jackson   DT   Hoover, AL   6'2"   265   3* was here maybe one or two years and did nothing?

Courtney Gaston   LB   Fort Gibson, OK   6'3"   205   3* ended up JUCO

Brad Hefley   ATH   Joplin, MO   6'5"   255  3* Redshirted then transferred to JUCO then to Pitt State

Jatashun Beachum   ATH   Dallas, TX   6'2"   275 3* Left in the summer of 2011 never did anything

Marquel Wade   WR   Jacksonville, FL   5'11"   180 3* Didn't make it in 2010 but did the next year. Played a little before but was dismissed from the team in 2012.

Jacoby Walker   QB   Spring, TX   6'2"   210 3* Transferred to UCA

LaCraig Brown   DT   Monroe, LA   6'4"   261 3* I don't think he made it through fall camp

Darrell Smith   DB   Port Saint Joe, FL   6'2"   185   3* Transferred after 2 years to Murray State

Denton Simek   OL   Prague, OK   6'6"   260 3* Redshirted then transferred to Central Oklahoma

Maudrecus Humphrey   WR   Hoover, AL   6'2"   185 3* Transferred in summer of 2012 to UAB after getting arrested

Eduardo Camara   K   Cedar Hill, TX   5'8"   155   3* Transferred to UCA

I'm sure someone can add some other players that I'm missing but thats almost half your 2010 class that didn't make it to their JR years. Plus throw in the passing of Garrett Uekman thats 14 players that did nothing as JRs and SRs.

BoynamedWooPigSooie

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on October 11, 2017, 11:23:05 am
Bielema Went 3-9 in his 1st season here. Some of the excuses given by the fans were "the cupboard is bare", "He doesn't have the talent he needs", etc. Looking back, we wanted him to win so badly that we blinded ourselves to the truth: He was (and still is) in over his head.

Lets take a look at the Razorback turned NFL players that "didn't have the talent" Bret needed.

QB Brandon Allen
OT Brey Cook
FB Kiero Small
DE Trey Flowers
C Travis Swanson
K Zach Hocker
DE Chris Smith
CB Tevin Mitchell
RB Jonathan Williams
WR Keon Hatcher
LB Otha Peters
DT Darius Philon
DE Deatrich Wise
TE Jeremy Sprinkle
WR Mekale McKay
WR Demetrius Williams

I understand that many of these guys were young when bielema arrived but the 3 win season was and always will be completely unacceptable. Was/Is the problem talent or coaching?


Bielema had better talent when he got here than what he has now 5 years later.  The only thing bare in the Arkansas football program is the smarts of the braintrust running the show.
Hogville's resident uniform designer.

HogHomer

Quote from: Razorbax on October 11, 2017, 08:17:22 pm
Since you have a hard 85 scholarship limit and accounting for redshirts, you cannot have more than 16~18 players stay in any given year. Considering 247 shows 37 enrollees, you could lose 20~23 and stay within the average.
Would you agree Arkansas is a place where that the longer we have players stay in our system they will generally get better? (With competent coaching of course.) I think it is and when you have to replace so many players with either freshman or jucos who haven't been in our system at all it's harder to have sustained success.

BoynamedWooPigSooie

Quote from: GuvHog on October 11, 2017, 01:48:06 pm
All one has to do is look at what Chaney is accomplishing at Georgia this year and it's quite obvious that he was hampered by Bret's interference at Arkansas.

I'm sure the talent differences make a lot that possible. I am in no way defending Bert, he's god-awful and will go down as the worst coach in modern football history at Arkansas.

Still astonished that Chaney keeps failing upward.
Hogville's resident uniform designer.

Razorbax

If all were equal...Unfortunately, some start with better talent....Some with better coaching....Some in a scheme that highlights their talents/abilities. BTW, in year five, are we doing that now?
Quote from: HogHomer on October 11, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
Would you agree Arkansas is a place where that the longer we have players stay in our system they will generally get better? (With competent coaching of course.) I think it is and when you have to replace so many players with either freshman or jucos who haven't been in our system at all it's harder to have sustained success.

Hollywood_HOGan45


HogHomer

Quote from: Razorbax on October 11, 2017, 08:26:00 pm
If all were equal...Unfortunately, some start with better talent....Some with better coaching....Some in a scheme that highlights their talents/abilities. BTW, in year five, are we doing that now?
Doing what now? Highlighting our players talents to their full potential? No and I think it is one of CBBs greatest downfalls. He doesn't know how to utilize talent.
But my argument was that you are going to be spinning your wheels if you have to keep replacing players after a year of being in a program with more players that will leave after a year.

You have to have players stay and develop. That doesn't mean you don't "process out" some of the kids that can't help. But if you are having half your class leave before reaching their junior year then you are already at a great disadvantages. And at Arkansas where we already have more disadvantage than most of the teams in our conference why would you want to add to it?

870hogfan

The Bert reference is very stupid and disrespectful.

Razorbax

Well, keeping players that has no chance of impacting the two-deep for 4/5 years seems to be not working at Arkansas. Alabama and other "powers" seem to have no problems with their wheels.
Quote from: HogHomer on October 11, 2017, 08:33:08 pm
Doing what now? Highlighting our players talents to their full potential? No and I think it is one of CBBs greatest downfalls. He doesn't know how to utilize talent.
But my argument was that you are going to be spinning your wheels if you have to keep replacing players after a year of being in a program with more players that will leave after a year.

You have to have players stay and develop. That doesn't mean you don't "process out" some of the kids that can't help. But if you are having half your class leave before reaching their junior year then you are already at a great disadvantages. And at Arkansas where we already have more disadvantage than most of the teams in our conference why would you want to add to it?

HogHomer

Quote from: Razorbax on October 11, 2017, 08:42:13 pm
Well, keeping players that has no chance of impacting the two-deep for 4/5 years seems to be not working at Arkansas. Alabama and other "powers" seem to have no problems with their wheels.
If we were recruiting like Bama then we wouldn't be talking about this. But we don't and won't ever recruit in the top 10 consistently like the "powers" you are talking about.

Idahog

Quote from: PorkRinds on October 11, 2017, 11:32:24 am
Uh...that's actually an opinion.

Nope.  It's the truth.  First instance of CBB playing favorites.
Quote from: Pork Twain on February 11, 2015, 07:11:54 am
Let me explain how this works...  If I have four really good meals in a row, I am thankful for that and I do not withhold my thanks for fear that the next meal might suck.

Razorbax

Regardless, keeping a player for 4/5 years that has no chance of cracking the 2 deep leaves you with a lot of seniors on the bench.
At the same time, you are chasing underclassmen to fill those slots. Not even mentioning the diminishing number of scholarships available to fill those slots.
Quote from: HogHomer on October 11, 2017, 08:46:19 pm
If we were recruiting like Bama then we wouldn't be talking about this. But we don't and won't ever recruit in the top 10 consistently like the "powers" you are talking about.

HogHomer

Quote from: Razorbax on October 11, 2017, 08:53:06 pm
Regardless, keeping a player for 4/5 years that has no chance of cracking the 2 deep leaves you with a lot of seniors on the bench.
At the same time, you are chasing underclassmen to fill those slots. Not even mentioning the diminishing number of scholarships available to fill those slots.
With the right development system, which I can say most competent coaches have, those 4/5 year players that don't crack the two deep can still help on special teams so you don't have 2-3 freshman ,who are talented but should be redshirted, waste a year of eligibility playing on ST

MushroomCloudHog

Wasn't AJ Derby and Hunter Henry also on that team?

Razorbax

Right system and competent coaching....Sounds familiar......
Quote from: Razorbax on October 11, 2017, 08:26:00 pm
If all were equal...Unfortunately, some start with better talent....Some with better coaching....Some in a scheme that highlights their talents/abilities. BTW, in year five, are we doing that now?
Quote from: HogHomer on October 11, 2017, 09:00:37 pm
With the right development system, which I can say most competent coaches have, those 4/5 year players that don't crack the two deep can still help on special teams so you don't have 2-3 freshman ,who are talented but should be redshirted, waste a year of eligibility playing on ST