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Author Topic: Line Play  (Read 1539 times)

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Hog10S

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Line Play
« on: October 09, 2017, 10:16:39 am »

This, in my mind, is our glaring problem.  First, we have running backs that can run and receivers who can catch. We all knew the D was going to need a little time to adjust to the 3-4.  However, the O-Line was supposed to be Coach B's strong suit and we were coming back with more experience this year.  What bothered me most about the SC game was the number of times I had to hear the announcers point out that South Carolina has a hodge podge of linemen having to play different positions due to injuries and they seemed to push our D back all the time.  Yet the Hogs, with no real injuries to date, couldn't seem to keep the Carolina defense out of our backfield.  We get ZERO push and space at the line.  When you don't have that, you aren't going to be able to do much.  We have that happen way too often.  I know our QB still seems to focus on his target too early and too much and holds the ball too long, but, that is minor compared to being chased down almost every play.  Heck, we tried a little pitch play and there were more defensive players around the ball than offensive.  Also, we can be a little predictable.  If we pass on the first down and don't make it, we will go off tackle the next play almost exclusively. Again, I digress.

It is all about the line play though, for the most part.  I like our Line coach, but think he tries to be a "technician" and teach all these little things that would help if our players didn't have to attend classes or have NCAA rules that limit practice hours.  As someone who played tennis in college and taught others to play, I compare it to trying to get real technical in teaching someone to hit a backhand.  You can give all kinds of technical details of how you should move, take back the racquet, the angle of your arm, the swing and follow through, where the ball should be in connection with your body when you make contact, etc.  The problem is that with all those little things going through the players mind, if they are thinking about it, they will never hit the ball worth a darn. The ball moves too fast to think anything other than determine where the ball is going to be when you meet to it to swing. You just have to hit the ball the best you can. You have to evolve into a more technical player over a long period of time.  First, you have to just show them how to hit and let them hit the ball.  If they need to meet the ball in front more you just tell them to swing earlier.  You keep it simple (more step toward the ball with your leg versus trying to give angles to the ball and precise knee bends, etc.)  You can't get detailed until the player has the shot down and then you are just trying to make them perfect on the shot, but they already can hit the ball well. And details also come in stages. Just enough that they can handle without causing them to have to think about it during play. I think the same goes here.  We might be giving our linemen too many details on footwork and arm placement, how to defend certain defensive moves, etc.  When our players get into the game and the ball is snapped, they are thinking step movements and arm placements instead of just blocking.  It's not like the defensive player is standing still, so by the time our guys can think things through the defensive player is already around, by or through our linemen.  That is what I see when I watch them. Our guys get beat because they have too many technical things to think about to "do it right" versus just block.  We need to get back to just blocking.  Then we can improve slowly with a single technique here and another down the road until they can do it without thinking. Eventually, they might become a great lineman.  We don't need to try and teach them all the moves at one time and so they actually regress.  If they were professionals with no limitations on practice time and nothing like school to impede the study and practice of the moves, maybe you can do that.  Not in college.  We need to just get back to basic blocking.

Just my two cents.
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Vantage 8 dude

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 10:41:59 am »

This, in my mind, is our glaring problem.  First, we have running backs that can run and receivers who can catch. We all knew the D was going to need a little time to adjust to the 3-4.  However, the O-Line was supposed to be Coach B's strong suit and we were coming back with more experience this year.  What bothered me most about the SC game was the number of times I had to hear the announcers point out that South Carolina has a hodge podge of linemen having to play different positions due to injuries and they seemed to push our D back all the time.  Yet the Hogs, with no real injuries to date, couldn't seem to keep the Carolina defense out of our backfield.  We get ZERO push and space at the line.  When you don't have that, you aren't going to be able to do much.  We have that happen way too often.  I know our QB still seems to focus on his target too early and too much and holds the ball too long, but, that is minor compared to being chased down almost every play.  Heck, we tried a little pitch play and there were more defensive players around the ball than offensive.  Also, we can be a little predictable.  If we pass on the first down and don't make it, we will go off tackle the next play almost exclusively. Again, I digress.

It is all about the line play though, for the most part.  I like our Line coach, but think he tries to be a "technician" and teach all these little things that would help if our players didn't have to attend classes or have NCAA rules that limit practice hours.  As someone who played tennis in college and taught others to play, I compare it to trying to get real technical in teaching someone to hit a backhand.  You can give all kinds of technical details of how you should move, take back the racquet, the angle of your arm, the swing and follow through, where the ball should be in connection with your body when you make contact, etc.  The problem is that with all those little things going through the players mind, if they are thinking about it, they will never hit the ball worth a darn. The ball moves too fast to think anything other than determine where the ball is going to be when you meet to it to swing. You just have to hit the ball the best you can. You have to evolve into a more technical player over a long period of time.  First, you have to just show them how to hit and let them hit the ball.  If they need to meet the ball in front more you just tell them to swing earlier.  You keep it simple (more step toward the ball with your leg versus trying to give angles to the ball and precise knee bends, etc.)  You can't get detailed until the player has the shot down and then you are just trying to make them perfect on the shot, but they already can hit the ball well. And details also come in stages. Just enough that they can handle without causing them to have to think about it during play. I think the same goes here.  We might be giving our linemen too many details on footwork and arm placement, how to defend certain defensive moves, etc.  When our players get into the game and the ball is snapped, they are thinking step movements and arm placements instead of just blocking.  It's not like the defensive player is standing still, so by the time our guys can think things through the defensive player is already around, by or through our linemen.  That is what I see when I watch them. Our guys get beat because they have too many technical things to think about to "do it right" versus just block.  We need to get back to just blocking.  Then we can improve slowly with a single technique here and another down the road until they can do it without thinking. Eventually, they might become a great lineman.  We don't need to try and teach them all the moves at one time and so they actually regress.  If they were professionals with no limitations on practice time and nothing like school to impede the study and practice of the moves, maybe you can do that.  Not in college.  We need to just get back to basic blocking.

Just my two cents.
Well poor line play is obviously a huge issue. However, it's only one of many facing this program at the moment.
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 11:05:48 am »

As the father of one of the offensive lineman, I want to share my opinion with you.  I totally understand your perspective.  A term that is commonly used when overthinking technique is ďanalysis paralysisĒ.  A brief hesitation to process technique can be disastrous.   That, in my opinion, is not the problem with the offensive line.  Technique is stressed, that is true.  Hand and foot position is repeated in drill after drill.  When everything breaks down, when the players are in a physical battle, having proper hands and feet can tip the scale in their favor.  I donít think that is this Olineís problem.   Pre-snap reads and assignments are stressed, to the point it has kept talented players off the field, but I donít think that is the problem either.  There have been glaring mistakes, that is evident.  Sometimes, players simply get beaten.  Itís part of the game.  We donít like it, but it happens.  Here is my summary of what is wrong.  Not only with the Oline, but the entire offensive system. 

It is a problem 5 years in the making.  When coach got here, he brought in Jim Chaney run his offense and Sam Pittman to coach the line.  Chaney is a power run guy and Pittman was a straight downhill mammoth Oline guy.  When Chaney left, Enos came on board.  Enos was a wide open, but still power rush coach.  The difference was the fact that Enos likes screens, sweeps with lineman leading, trap blocks, etc, plays that require lineman with mobility.  He didnít want 350lb lineman.  He wanted 300-310 that could move.  Pittman didnít like it and moved on.  There was a philosophical difference in the type of lineman to have on campus and the OC got his way.  Look at the players brought in in the last two years.  Raulerson, Ramirez, Heinrich, Clenin, Adcock, Clary, and Wagner.  All are tall, but less than 300lbs when they arrived on campus. Last Saturday featured Jackson (298), Froholdt (311), Ragnow (317), Clary (286), & Gibson (333) starting in the offensive line.  These are the size Enos wanted.  But here is he major issue.  The playbook doesnít reflect the change in philosophy.  They are still attempting to be the power rushing team that they were two and three years ago.  The metaphor I use is that the bullets donít fit the gun.  Teams donít respect the run.  They try to run play action and the linebackers just keep coming because they know that they will either stuff the run or be in the quarterbackís face before he turns around after faking he handoff.  Bringing four lineman and at least two linebackers is five blocking six and the math simply doesnít work. 

I am not saying the Oline is playing well.  They are not.  That is obvious.  But the scheme is as much of a problem if not more so.  They are not built to be a power rush team.  They are built to be a spread team.  That is the type Oline theyíve recruited and that is the type of offense they need to be running.  There are wide open teams, there are power rush teams.  Arkansas is trying to be what they are not.  Whether itís the coordinator or the head coach, the conservative, power offense has to stop.  The QB needs to be in the shotgun and looking at the defense, not with his back to them faking a handoff.  You can run power out of the shotgun.  Enos has before.  They better realize that soon because they are all coaching for their jobs.  They are tasked with taking the players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:47:49 am by FANONTHEHILL »
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Oklahawg

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 11:09:29 am »

As the father of one of the offensive lineman, I want to share my opinion with you.  I totally understand your perspective.  A term that is commonly used when overthinking technique is ďanalysis paralysisĒ.  A brief hesitation to process technique can be disastrous.   That, in my opinion, is not the problem with the offensive line.  Technique is steessed, that is true.  Hand and foot position is repeated in drill after drill.  When everything breaks down, when the players are in a physical battle, having proper hands and feet can tip the scale in their favor.  I donít think that is this Olineís problem.   Pre-snap reads and assignments are stressed, to the point it has kept talented players off the field, but I donít think that is the problem either.  There have been glaring mistakes, that is evident.  Sometimes, players simply get beaten.  Itís part of the game.  We donít like it, but it happens.  Here is my summary of what is wrong.  Not only with the Oline, but the entire offensive system. 

It is a problem 5 years in the making.  When coach got here, he brought in Jim Chaney run his offense and Sam Pittman to coach the line.  Chaney is a power run guy and Pittman was a straight downhill mammoth Oline guy.  When Chaney left, Enos came on board.  Enos was a wide open, but still power rush coach.  The difference was the fact that Enos likes screens, sweeps with lineman leading, trap blocks, etc, plays that require lineman with mobility.  He didnít want 350lb lineman.  He wanted 300-310 that could move.  Pittman didnít like it and moved on.  There was a philosophical difference in the type of lineman to have on campus and the OC got his way.  Look at the players brought in in the last two years.  Raulerson, Ramirez, Heinrich, Clenin, Adcock, Clary, and Wagner.  All are tall, but less than 300lbs when they arrived on campus. Last Saturday featured Jackson (298), Froholdt (311), Ragnow (317), Clary (286), & Gibson (333) starting in the offensive line.  These are the size Enos wanted.  But here is he major issue.  The playbook doesnít reflect the change in philosophy.  They are still attempting to be the power rushing team that they were two and three years ago.  The metaphor is use is that he bullets donít fit the gun.  Teams donít respect the run.  They try to run play action and the linebackers just keep coming because they know that they will either stuff the run or be in the quarterbackís face before he turns around after faking he handoff.  Brining four lineman and at least two linebackers is five blocking six and the math simply doesnít work. 

I am not saying the Oline is playing well.  They are not.  That is obvious.  But the scheme is as much of a problem if not more so.  They are not built to be a power rush team.  They are built to be a spread team.  That is the type Oline theyíve recruited and that is the type of offense they need to be running.  There are wide open teams, there are power rush teams.  Arkansas is trying to be what they are not.  Whether itís the coordinator or the head coach, the conservative, power offense has to stop.  The QB need to be in the shotgun and looking at the defense, not with his back to them faking a handoff.  You can run power out of the shotgun.  Enos has before.  They better realize that soon because they are all coaching for their jobs.  They are tasked with taking He players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.

End of discussion. Thanks!
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Dwight_K_Shrute

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 11:09:41 am »

....They are tasked with taking He players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.
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jkstock04

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 11:16:47 am »

This, in my mind, is our glaring problem.  First, we have running backs that can run and receivers who can catch. We all knew the D was going to need a little time to adjust to the 3-4.  However, the O-Line was supposed to be Coach B's strong suit and we were coming back with more experience this year.  What bothered me most about the SC game was the number of times I had to hear the announcers point out that South Carolina has a hodge podge of linemen having to play different positions due to injuries and they seemed to push our D back all the time.  Yet the Hogs, with no real injuries to date, couldn't seem to keep the Carolina defense out of our backfield.  We get ZERO push and space at the line.  When you don't have that, you aren't going to be able to do much.  We have that happen way too often.  I know our QB still seems to focus on his target too early and too much and holds the ball too long, but, that is minor compared to being chased down almost every play.  Heck, we tried a little pitch play and there were more defensive players around the ball than offensive.  Also, we can be a little predictable.  If we pass on the first down and don't make it, we will go off tackle the next play almost exclusively. Again, I digress.

It is all about the line play though, for the most part.  I like our Line coach, but think he tries to be a "technician" and teach all these little things that would help if our players didn't have to attend classes or have NCAA rules that limit practice hours.  As someone who played tennis in college and taught others to play, I compare it to trying to get real technical in teaching someone to hit a backhand.  You can give all kinds of technical details of how you should move, take back the racquet, the angle of your arm, the swing and follow through, where the ball should be in connection with your body when you make contact, etc.  The problem is that with all those little things going through the players mind, if they are thinking about it, they will never hit the ball worth a darn. The ball moves too fast to think anything other than determine where the ball is going to be when you meet to it to swing. You just have to hit the ball the best you can. You have to evolve into a more technical player over a long period of time.  First, you have to just show them how to hit and let them hit the ball.  If they need to meet the ball in front more you just tell them to swing earlier.  You keep it simple (more step toward the ball with your leg versus trying to give angles to the ball and precise knee bends, etc.)  You can't get detailed until the player has the shot down and then you are just trying to make them perfect on the shot, but they already can hit the ball well. And details also come in stages. Just enough that they can handle without causing them to have to think about it during play. I think the same goes here.  We might be giving our linemen too many details on footwork and arm placement, how to defend certain defensive moves, etc.  When our players get into the game and the ball is snapped, they are thinking step movements and arm placements instead of just blocking.  It's not like the defensive player is standing still, so by the time our guys can think things through the defensive player is already around, by or through our linemen.  That is what I see when I watch them. Our guys get beat because they have too many technical things to think about to "do it right" versus just block.  We need to get back to just blocking.  Then we can improve slowly with a single technique here and another down the road until they can do it without thinking. Eventually, they might become a great lineman.  We don't need to try and teach them all the moves at one time and so they actually regress.  If they were professionals with no limitations on practice time and nothing like school to impede the study and practice of the moves, maybe you can do that.  Not in college.  We need to just get back to basic blocking.

Just my two cents.
Long...but good post. You sound like a good teacher...for no better way of saying it you can dumb your teaching down to where a more simple mind can comprehend.

In college I had professors who were geniuses....some of these guys literally out of their mind brilliant. Didn't mean they could teach someone worth a damn though. Some of these guys were also the worst at relaying and actual teaching. If you didn't rise to their level and get it you weren't gonna get it. Sink or swim.

Maybe the staff needs to start recruiting more cerebral players.
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Andrew Hogfan

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 11:27:59 am »

Fan,  if that's the case,  and coach B is a CEO type if coach.  Why isn't Enos calling plays more suited to his players?  Makes no sense.  It's madness
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 11:32:28 am »

Fan,  if that's the case,  and coach B is a CEO type if coach.  Why isn't Enos calling plays more suited to his players?  Makes no sense.  It's madness
A college football staff is a pyramid.  I think Enos wants to open things up, but heís not the capstone.
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Hog10S

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 11:39:47 am »

As the father of one of the offensive lineman, I want to share my opinion with you.  I totally understand your perspective.  A term that is commonly used when overthinking technique is ďanalysis paralysisĒ.  A brief hesitation to process technique can be disastrous.   That, in my opinion, is not the problem with the offensive line.  Technique is steessed, that is true.  Hand and foot position is repeated in drill after drill.  When everything breaks down, when the players are in a physical battle, having proper hands and feet can tip the scale in their favor.  I donít think that is this Olineís problem.   Pre-snap reads and assignments are stressed, to the point it has kept talented players off the field, but I donít think that is the problem either.  There have been glaring mistakes, that is evident.  Sometimes, players simply get beaten.  Itís part of the game.  We donít like it, but it happens.  Here is my summary of what is wrong.  Not only with the Oline, but the entire offensive system. 

It is a problem 5 years in the making.  When coach got here, he brought in Jim Chaney run his offense and Sam Pittman to coach the line.  Chaney is a power run guy and Pittman was a straight downhill mammoth Oline guy.  When Chaney left, Enos came on board.  Enos was a wide open, but still power rush coach.  The difference was the fact that Enos likes screens, sweeps with lineman leading, trap blocks, etc, plays that require lineman with mobility.  He didnít want 350lb lineman.  He wanted 300-310 that could move.  Pittman didnít like it and moved on.  There was a philosophical difference in the type of lineman to have on campus and the OC got his way.  Look at the players brought in in the last two years.  Raulerson, Ramirez, Heinrich, Clenin, Adcock, Clary, and Wagner.  All are tall, but less than 300lbs when they arrived on campus. Last Saturday featured Jackson (298), Froholdt (311), Ragnow (317), Clary (286), & Gibson (333) starting in the offensive line.  These are the size Enos wanted.  But here is he major issue.  The playbook doesnít reflect the change in philosophy.  They are still attempting to be the power rushing team that they were two and three years ago.  The metaphor I use is that the bullets donít fit the gun.  Teams donít respect the run.  They try to run play action and the linebackers just keep coming because they know that they will either stuff the run or be in the quarterbackís face before he turns around after faking he handoff.  Bringing four lineman and at least two linebackers is five blocking six and the math simply doesnít work. 

I am not saying the Oline is playing well.  They are not.  That is obvious.  But the scheme is as much of a problem if not more so.  They are not built to be a power rush team.  They are built to be a spread team.  That is the type Oline theyíve recruited and that is the type of offense they need to be running.  There are wide open teams, there are power rush teams.  Arkansas is trying to be what they are not.  Whether itís the coordinator or the head coach, the conservative, power offense has to stop.  The QB needs to be in the shotgun and looking at the defense, not with his back to them faking a handoff.  You can run power out of the shotgun.  Enos has before.  They better realize that soon because they are all coaching for their jobs.  They are tasked with taking the players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.
Great points.  I defer to your better insights.
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#1Fan

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 11:55:13 am »

In reading between the lines, it sounds like there might be a power struggle going on between CBB and Enos, which is what happened at Whisky between CBB and Matt Canada (just google it).  This gets worse every day.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 12:02:42 pm »

The offensive players have lost any idea of their identity. 

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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 12:15:41 pm »

A college football staff is a pyramid.  I think Enos wants to open things up, but heís not the capstone.
Sounds very similar to the Canada - Bielema play calling situation at Wisconsin
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Re: Line Play
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2017, 12:32:56 pm »

I just remember when Chaney was here we complained about not being able to pass the ball when we needed to. Then we get Enos and it looked more balanced. Now it seems they can't do either very well.
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AP85

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2017, 12:34:16 pm »

UGA looks like they have 5 Denver Kirklandís.
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longpig

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2017, 12:40:22 pm »

 Bret Arnold shouldn't dress out this week.  If that doesn't work Bret Arnold and Jaba the Kurt shouldn't dress out next week. 
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 12:42:46 pm »

A college football staff is a pyramid.  I think Enos wants to open things up, but heís not the capstone.

Then perhaps he gets frustrated and leaves if CBB is retained.
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hog.goblin

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2017, 12:46:06 pm »

Bielema on offensive line: A coach is only going to be allowed to coach to what his personnel can do.
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woodhog14

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2017, 12:46:54 pm »

As the father of one of the offensive lineman, I want to share my opinion with you.  I totally understand your perspective.  A term that is commonly used when overthinking technique is ďanalysis paralysisĒ.  A brief hesitation to process technique can be disastrous.   That, in my opinion, is not the problem with the offensive line.  Technique is stressed, that is true.  Hand and foot position is repeated in drill after drill.  When everything breaks down, when the players are in a physical battle, having proper hands and feet can tip the scale in their favor.  I donít think that is this Olineís problem.   Pre-snap reads and assignments are stressed, to the point it has kept talented players off the field, but I donít think that is the problem either.  There have been glaring mistakes, that is evident.  Sometimes, players simply get beaten.  Itís part of the game.  We donít like it, but it happens.  Here is my summary of what is wrong.  Not only with the Oline, but the entire offensive system. 

It is a problem 5 years in the making.  When coach got here, he brought in Jim Chaney run his offense and Sam Pittman to coach the line.  Chaney is a power run guy and Pittman was a straight downhill mammoth Oline guy.  When Chaney left, Enos came on board.  Enos was a wide open, but still power rush coach.  The difference was the fact that Enos likes screens, sweeps with lineman leading, trap blocks, etc, plays that require lineman with mobility.  He didnít want 350lb lineman.  He wanted 300-310 that could move.  Pittman didnít like it and moved on.  There was a philosophical difference in the type of lineman to have on campus and the OC got his way.  Look at the players brought in in the last two years.  Raulerson, Ramirez, Heinrich, Clenin, Adcock, Clary, and Wagner.  All are tall, but less than 300lbs when they arrived on campus. Last Saturday featured Jackson (298), Froholdt (311), Ragnow (317), Clary (286), & Gibson (333) starting in the offensive line.  These are the size Enos wanted.  But here is he major issue.  The playbook doesnít reflect the change in philosophy.  They are still attempting to be the power rushing team that they were two and three years ago.  The metaphor I use is that the bullets donít fit the gun.  Teams donít respect the run.  They try to run play action and the linebackers just keep coming because they know that they will either stuff the run or be in the quarterbackís face before he turns around after faking he handoff.  Bringing four lineman and at least two linebackers is five blocking six and the math simply doesnít work. 

I am not saying the Oline is playing well.  They are not.  That is obvious.  But the scheme is as much of a problem if not more so.  They are not built to be a power rush team.  They are built to be a spread team.  That is the type Oline theyíve recruited and that is the type of offense they need to be running.  There are wide open teams, there are power rush teams.  Arkansas is trying to be what they are not.  Whether itís the coordinator or the head coach, the conservative, power offense has to stop.  The QB needs to be in the shotgun and looking at the defense, not with his back to them faking a handoff.  You can run power out of the shotgun.  Enos has before.  They better realize that soon because they are all coaching for their jobs.  They are tasked with taking the players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.
Great post. Spot on!
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hawgon

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2017, 12:47:44 pm »

As the father of one of the offensive lineman, I want to share my opinion with you.  I totally understand your perspective.  A term that is commonly used when overthinking technique is ďanalysis paralysisĒ.  A brief hesitation to process technique can be disastrous.   That, in my opinion, is not the problem with the offensive line.  Technique is stressed, that is true.  Hand and foot position is repeated in drill after drill.  When everything breaks down, when the players are in a physical battle, having proper hands and feet can tip the scale in their favor.  I donít think that is this Olineís problem.   Pre-snap reads and assignments are stressed, to the point it has kept talented players off the field, but I donít think that is the problem either.  There have been glaring mistakes, that is evident.  Sometimes, players simply get beaten.  Itís part of the game.  We donít like it, but it happens.  Here is my summary of what is wrong.  Not only with the Oline, but the entire offensive system. 

It is a problem 5 years in the making.  When coach got here, he brought in Jim Chaney run his offense and Sam Pittman to coach the line.  Chaney is a power run guy and Pittman was a straight downhill mammoth Oline guy.  When Chaney left, Enos came on board.  Enos was a wide open, but still power rush coach.  The difference was the fact that Enos likes screens, sweeps with lineman leading, trap blocks, etc, plays that require lineman with mobility.  He didnít want 350lb lineman.  He wanted 300-310 that could move.  Pittman didnít like it and moved on.  There was a philosophical difference in the type of lineman to have on campus and the OC got his way.  Look at the players brought in in the last two years.  Raulerson, Ramirez, Heinrich, Clenin, Adcock, Clary, and Wagner.  All are tall, but less than 300lbs when they arrived on campus. Last Saturday featured Jackson (298), Froholdt (311), Ragnow (317), Clary (286), & Gibson (333) starting in the offensive line.  These are the size Enos wanted.  But here is he major issue.  The playbook doesnít reflect the change in philosophy.  They are still attempting to be the power rushing team that they were two and three years ago.  The metaphor I use is that the bullets donít fit the gun.  Teams donít respect the run.  They try to run play action and the linebackers just keep coming because they know that they will either stuff the run or be in the quarterbackís face before he turns around after faking he handoff.  Bringing four lineman and at least two linebackers is five blocking six and the math simply doesnít work. 

I am not saying the Oline is playing well.  They are not.  That is obvious.  But the scheme is as much of a problem if not more so.  They are not built to be a power rush team.  They are built to be a spread team.  That is the type Oline theyíve recruited and that is the type of offense they need to be running.  There are wide open teams, there are power rush teams.  Arkansas is trying to be what they are not.  Whether itís the coordinator or the head coach, the conservative, power offense has to stop.  The QB needs to be in the shotgun and looking at the defense, not with his back to them faking a handoff.  You can run power out of the shotgun.  Enos has before.  They better realize that soon because they are all coaching for their jobs.  They are tasked with taking the players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.

Bielema just said that your son and the others on the line aren't good enough to take the coaching needed to make them better.
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 01:36:47 pm »

Bielema on offensive line: A coach is only going to be allowed to coach to what his personnel can do.

Iím not being a Bielema apologist, but as the father of one of these Olineman, heís absolutely correct.  You can coach all day, but a 300lb lineman doesnít have the push of a 350lb lineman.  Thatís not a shot at any of the kids, thatís physics. You canít coach a Clydesdale to win the Kentucky Derby and you canít coach a thoroughbred to pull a 5,000lb Cart.  What the staff needs to do is evaluate what they have and use it effectively.  They arenít doing that currently.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2017, 01:40:27 pm »

Iím not being a Bielema apologist, but as the father of one of these Olineman, heís absolutely correct.  You can coach all day, but a 300lb lineman doesnít have the push of a 350lb lineman.  Thatís not a shot at any of the kids, thatís physics. You canít coach a Clydesdale to win the Kentucky Derby and you canít coach a thoroughbred to pull a 5,000lb Cart.  What the staff needs to do is evaluate what they have and use it effectively.  They arenít doing that currently.


And to me that's a big problem. I've aways thought a coach should have a preferred scheme/style BUT be willing to recognize what they have and how it fits and adapt a little bit to the personnel he has to work with and lead his assistants in doing so.
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2017, 01:41:49 pm »


And to me that's a big problem. I've aways thought a coach should have a preferred scheme/style BUT be willing to recognize what they have and how it fits and adapt a little bit to the personnel he has to work with.

They want to run Power-I, but have Power-Spread personell.
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Kevin

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2017, 01:41:50 pm »

As the father of one of the offensive lineman, I want to share my opinion with you.  I totally understand your perspective.  A term that is commonly used when overthinking technique is “analysis paralysis”.  A brief hesitation to process technique can be disastrous.   That, in my opinion, is not the problem with the offensive line.  Technique is stressed, that is true.  Hand and foot position is repeated in drill after drill.  When everything breaks down, when the players are in a physical battle, having proper hands and feet can tip the scale in their favor.  I don’t think that is this Oline’s problem.   Pre-snap reads and assignments are stressed, to the point it has kept talented players off the field, but I don’t think that is the problem either.  There have been glaring mistakes, that is evident.  Sometimes, players simply get beaten.  It’s part of the game.  We don’t like it, but it happens.  Here is my summary of what is wrong.  Not only with the Oline, but the entire offensive system. 

It is a problem 5 years in the making.  When coach got here, he brought in Jim Chaney run his offense and Sam Pittman to coach the line.  Chaney is a power run guy and Pittman was a straight downhill mammoth Oline guy.  When Chaney left, Enos came on board.  Enos was a wide open, but still power rush coach.  The difference was the fact that Enos likes screens, sweeps with lineman leading, trap blocks, etc, plays that require lineman with mobility.  He didn’t want 350lb lineman.  He wanted 300-310 that could move.  Pittman didn’t like it and moved on.  There was a philosophical difference in the type of lineman to have on campus and the OC got his way.  Look at the players brought in in the last two years.  Raulerson, Ramirez, Heinrich, Clenin, Adcock, Clary, and Wagner.  All are tall, but less than 300lbs when they arrived on campus. Last Saturday featured Jackson (298), Froholdt (311), Ragnow (317), Clary (286), & Gibson (333) starting in the offensive line.  These are the size Enos wanted.  But here is he major issue.  The playbook doesn’t reflect the change in philosophy.  They are still attempting to be the power rushing team that they were two and three years ago.  The metaphor I use is that the bullets don’t fit the gun.  Teams don’t respect the run.  They try to run play action and the linebackers just keep coming because they know that they will either stuff the run or be in the quarterback’s face before he turns around after faking he handoff.  Bringing four lineman and at least two linebackers is five blocking six and the math simply doesn’t work. 

I am not saying the Oline is playing well.  They are not.  That is obvious.  But the scheme is as much of a problem if not more so.  They are not built to be a power rush team.  They are built to be a spread team.  That is the type Oline they’ve recruited and that is the type of offense they need to be running.  There are wide open teams, there are power rush teams.  Arkansas is trying to be what they are not.  Whether it’s the coordinator or the head coach, the conservative, power offense has to stop.  The QB needs to be in the shotgun and looking at the defense, not with his back to them faking a handoff.  You can run power out of the shotgun.  Enos has before.  They better realize that soon because they are all coaching for their jobs.  They are tasked with taking the players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.

so we are asking players to do what they cannot do.  just using one of cbb's quotes he pulls out after a loss.
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AP85

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2017, 01:43:52 pm »

Why hasnít Kurt Anderson not been fired yet?
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onebadrubi

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2017, 01:48:57 pm »

Why hasnít Kurt Anderson not been fired yet?

Just isn't Bielema's MO. 
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2017, 01:58:14 pm »

Why hasnít Kurt Anderson not been fired yet?
I know that no one wants to hear this, but Anderson is not the biggest problem.  Itís further up the ladder than Anderson.  They want to run the scheme I mentioned in my post above, but donít have personell to be a power I team. 
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onebadrubi

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2017, 02:00:16 pm »

I know that no one wants to hear this, but Anderson is not the biggest problem.  Itís further up the ladder than Anderson.  They want to run the scheme I mentioned in my post above, but donít have personell to be a power I team.


My thought ot that and no ill respect to you, if that's the case Wallace and Merrick fit that mold to at least give them a shot in some games. 
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Piggfoot

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 02:38:54 pm »

I certainly agree with the point about Allen turning his back to the line.
Play action is supposed to slow the rush but Allen is very deliberate and does not fake out anyone. His eyes need to be downfield at all times, even when handing off, ie rpo.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2017, 02:50:26 pm »

They want to run Power-I, but have Power-Spread personell.

And when your scheme doesn't match your personnel that would be a leadership issue of the coach.
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Jim Harris

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2017, 03:33:19 pm »

As the father of one of the offensive lineman, I want to share my opinion with you.  I totally understand your perspective.  A term that is commonly used when overthinking technique is ďanalysis paralysisĒ.  A brief hesitation to process technique can be disastrous.   That, in my opinion, is not the problem with the offensive line.  Technique is stressed, that is true.  Hand and foot position is repeated in drill after drill.  When everything breaks down, when the players are in a physical battle, having proper hands and feet can tip the scale in their favor.  I donít think that is this Olineís problem.   Pre-snap reads and assignments are stressed, to the point it has kept talented players off the field, but I donít think that is the problem either.  There have been glaring mistakes, that is evident.  Sometimes, players simply get beaten.  Itís part of the game.  We donít like it, but it happens.  Here is my summary of what is wrong.  Not only with the Oline, but the entire offensive system. 

It is a problem 5 years in the making.  When coach got here, he brought in Jim Chaney run his offense and Sam Pittman to coach the line.  Chaney is a power run guy and Pittman was a straight downhill mammoth Oline guy.  When Chaney left, Enos came on board.  Enos was a wide open, but still power rush coach.  The difference was the fact that Enos likes screens, sweeps with lineman leading, trap blocks, etc, plays that require lineman with mobility.  He didnít want 350lb lineman.  He wanted 300-310 that could move.  Pittman didnít like it and moved on.  There was a philosophical difference in the type of lineman to have on campus and the OC got his way.  Look at the players brought in in the last two years.  Raulerson, Ramirez, Heinrich, Clenin, Adcock, Clary, and Wagner.  All are tall, but less than 300lbs when they arrived on campus. Last Saturday featured Jackson (298), Froholdt (311), Ragnow (317), Clary (286), & Gibson (333) starting in the offensive line.  These are the size Enos wanted.  But here is he major issue.  The playbook doesnít reflect the change in philosophy.  They are still attempting to be the power rushing team that they were two and three years ago.  The metaphor I use is that the bullets donít fit the gun.  Teams donít respect the run.  They try to run play action and the linebackers just keep coming because they know that they will either stuff the run or be in the quarterbackís face before he turns around after faking he handoff.  Bringing four lineman and at least two linebackers is five blocking six and the math simply doesnít work. 

I am not saying the Oline is playing well.  They are not.  That is obvious.  But the scheme is as much of a problem if not more so.  They are not built to be a power rush team.  They are built to be a spread team.  That is the type Oline theyíve recruited and that is the type of offense they need to be running.  There are wide open teams, there are power rush teams.  Arkansas is trying to be what they are not.  Whether itís the coordinator or the head coach, the conservative, power offense has to stop.  The QB needs to be in the shotgun and looking at the defense, not with his back to them faking a handoff.  You can run power out of the shotgun.  Enos has before.  They better realize that soon because they are all coaching for their jobs.  They are tasked with taking the players they have recruited and putting them in a position to be competitive.  They are doing a poor job of that so far.

I'm not sure the quarterback is suited for the spread. Not that starter, anyway,
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2017, 03:35:32 pm »


My thought ot that and no ill respect to you, if that's the case Wallace and Merrick fit that mold to at least give them a shot in some games. 
None taken.  Brian and Jalen are talented.  I expected to see them on the field this season.  Zach Rogers too for that matter.
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phadedhawg

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2017, 03:36:00 pm »

Bless anyone's heart who will take the time to break down what's wrong on the field.  I'm so far past that I don't even waste time considering it. 

I'm in a holding pattern waiting for the other shoe to drop.  (in this metaphor the shoe is Bert's employment status at UA)
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2017, 03:37:59 pm »

I'm not sure the quarterback is suited for the spread. Not that starter, anyway,

Itís what he ran at Fayetteville and had excellent results.  In the shotgun, eyes up, reading coverages and adjusting to the rush. 
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PLHawg

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2017, 03:40:33 pm »

Not a team we play that has one bit of respect for playaction, the defense is on him by the time he turns around.  Scary thing is, we haven't played a D even close to what we're going to see against Bama and Auburn.  If they want to keep AA out of the hospital they had best put him in the shotgun the rest of the season.
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Hogvayne

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2017, 04:46:29 pm »

A college football staff is a pyramid.  I think Enos wants to open things up, but heís not the capstone.

I wondered about this.  I think Anderson is recruiting, teaching technique, and coaching per Enos's scheme and direction - but I think Enos is being held back / overridden - compared to 2 years ago. 

Is this a pattern? 

Smith had a great D, and then after 2 years he was the scapegoat and was gone.  Was CBB overriding him too after 2014?  Will Enos be the next scapegoat?
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razorbackfaninar

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2017, 04:59:40 pm »

I wondered about this.  I think Anderson is recruiting, teaching technique, and coaching per Enos's scheme and direction - but I think Enos is being held back / overridden - compared to 2 years ago. 

Is this a pattern? 

Smith had a great D, and then after 2 years he was the scapegoat and was gone.  Was CBB overriding him too after 2014?  Will Enos be the next scapegoat?

The D coordinator changed and yet we play exactly the same on defense.  I think it is fair to say that this defense it the one Bielema wants to run.  I don't know why, but there it is.  Everyone harps on the O-Line, but the D-line is jut as bad.
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Nashville Fan

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2017, 05:17:26 pm »

It's not just the players that are not designed for this scheme. Got to look at recruiters, coaches, the whole mess. Everything is out of line for the offense. And they the same with the D.
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Tortfeasor

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2017, 05:25:35 pm »

I argue that our terrible OL has led to most of our problems and the reason we are so bad. Our D isn't terrible, but our offense sure is.
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Jim Harris

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2017, 05:31:09 pm »

Itís what he ran at Fayetteville and had excellent results.  In the shotgun, eyes up, reading coverages and adjusting to the rush. 

I saw him in HS and I agree with you that he should be in the shotgun and not under center, and I contend that Bielema simply isn't "all in" with his QB operating from the shotgun and still having the type of running game he craves.

I also know that you know tons of high school quarterbacks have had excellent results on the high school level, and at a better level of high school competition than Arkansas, but it didn't translate to seeing the whole field vs. the SEC. Certainly he could see more of the field by not being required to take the snap under center, fake a handoff and then look downfield.
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Andrew Hogfan

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2017, 05:37:09 pm »

Our D line is almost nonexistent.  Agim is a bright spot but I feel like he's being wasted.  Has our D had any tackles for loss? (not counting sacks)
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2017, 05:42:01 pm »

Just isn't Bielema's MO. 

Mike Markuson says Hi.
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elviscat

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2017, 06:28:37 pm »

We do not have SEC caliber linemen on either side of the ball. We are lacking speed and quickness.
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Al Boarland

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2017, 06:36:22 pm »

No, we all didnít know the 3-4 would take time. First, you had CPR saying how it would be less complex than what they were running. 95% of Hogville drank it up like it was the Gospel.
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ballz2thewall

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2017, 06:49:09 pm »

No, we all didnít know the 3-4 would take time. First, you had CPR saying how it would be less complex than what they were running. 95% of Hogville drank it up like it was the Gospel.

not necessarily. collectively we hoped, but many on here were skeptical for various reasons.
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hog.goblin

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2017, 07:00:37 pm »

Iím not being a Bielema apologist, but as the father of one of these Olineman, heís absolutely correct.  You can coach all day, but a 300lb lineman doesnít have the push of a 350lb lineman.  Thatís not a shot at any of the kids, thatís physics. You canít coach a Clydesdale to win the Kentucky Derby and you canít coach a thoroughbred to pull a 5,000lb Cart.  What the staff needs to do is evaluate what they have and use it effectively.  They arenít doing that currently.

Reasonable, rational response.  Though we certainly donít have to be the biggest, we need to be meaner and more fundamental on the line.
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WilsonHog

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2017, 07:06:42 pm »

Bielema on offensive line: ďA coach is only going to be allowed to coach to what his personnel can do.Ē

Help me understand this.

Bielema oversaw the recruitment/signing of his current offensive lineman.

He had to approve the change in approach to the type of lineman we are now signing.

Now we also hear from him today that he is frustrated by the lack of development of said offensive linemen - I suppose by the coach he hired to develop them (someone - either Anderson or our players - are wearing skid marks tonight).

We also seem to have a clash of philosophies between Bielema and Enos.

So, if it was all boiled down to gravy, seems to me that we have a head coach (known for producing dominant offensive lines) who came to the job with one philosophy, was somehow convinced to begin signing lineman that best fit with another philosophy, yet refuses to totally embrace what they were recruited for and is frustrated said linemen havenít developed - either for the new system he doesnít totally embrace or the old one he canít let go of.

That about sum it up?

What a sh*tshow.

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hog.goblin

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2017, 07:07:07 pm »

Why hasnít Kurt Anderson not been fired yet?

Technically I think the answer is, yes, he has...since he has not not been fired
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ballz2thewall

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2017, 07:10:42 pm »

Bielema on offensive line: ďA coach is only going to be allowed to coach to what his personnel can do.Ē

Help me understand this.

Bielema oversaw the recruitment/signing of his current offensive lineman.

He had to approve the change in approach to the type of lineman we are now signing.

Now we also hear from him today that he is frustrated by the lack of development of said offensive linemen - I suppose by the coach he hired to develop them (someone - either Anderson or our players - are wearing skid marks tonight).

We also seem to have a clash of philosophies between Bielema and Enos.

So, if it was all boiled down to gravy, seems to me that we have a head coach (known for producing dominant offensive lines) who came to the job with one philosophy, was somehow convinced to begin signing lineman that best fit with another philosophy, yet refuses to totally embrace what they were recruited for and is frustrated said linemen havenít developed - either for the new system he doesnít totally embrace or the old one he canít let go of.

That about sum it up?

What a sh*tshow.

that's how it appears.

left his bride and gota girlfriend, but dresses the girlfriend in the x's clothes.
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Bacons Rebellion

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2017, 07:14:23 pm »

I’m not being a Bielema apologist, but as the father of one of these Olineman, he’s absolutely correct.  You can coach all day, but a 300lb lineman doesn’t have the push of a 350lb lineman.  That’s not a shot at any of the kids, that’s physics. You can’t coach a Clydesdale to win the Kentucky Derby and you can’t coach a thoroughbred to pull a 5,000lb Cart.  What the staff needs to do is evaluate what they have and use it effectively.  They aren’t doing that currently.

Great points, FotH.

Somewhere along the way, I started judging coaches on the way they were able to adapt to the resources (players) they had on hand. I don't see us doing that.
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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: Line Play
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2017, 08:09:46 pm »

Bielema on offensive line: “A coach is only going to be allowed to coach to what his personnel can do.”

Help me understand this.

Bielema oversaw the recruitment/signing of his current offensive lineman.

He had to approve the change in approach to the type of lineman we are now signing.

Now we also hear from him today that he is frustrated by the lack of development of said offensive linemen - I suppose by the coach he hired to develop them (someone - either Anderson or our players - are wearing skid marks tonight).

We also seem to have a clash of philosophies between Bielema and Enos.

So, if it was all boiled down to gravy, seems to me that we have a head coach (known for producing dominant offensive lines) who came to the job with one philosophy, was somehow convinced to begin signing lineman that best fit with another philosophy, yet refuses to totally embrace what they were recruited for and is frustrated said linemen haven’t developed - either for the new system he doesn’t totally embrace or the old one he can’t let go of.

That about sum it up?

What a sh*tshow.



Hard to believe we have a coach so incompetent yet here we are.
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