Who is the Greatest Athlete of All-Time?

[Coachjy]

Houston Nutt

[CiriusPorker]

then what is the candy bar "Oh Henry" named for?..just curious.

[whatsshakinbacon]

Orville

Bacon out...

[HogInaStrangeLand]

Applaud for Aaron....(he gets overlooked so much in baseball....)

...the thing that i believe makes him better than ruth was that ruth played when players were relatively undeveloped as athletes and dominated scrubs.  by the time hank came around, the game had evolved significantly, became more competitive and required a higher amount of skill, and he dominated in these conditions.

Totally disagree.

The Babe changed baseball.  He one year had more homeruns than two other major league players combined.  In another year, he had more homeruns than any other team but one...if memory serves me correctly.  He was so far ahead of his time.  Hank had monster years at the plate.  You can say that Hank was a better fielder...that COULD be true.  However, I have heard many baseball analyst say that Babe would have been a HOF pitcher had he not been moved to the outfield for his bat.  Check his pitching stats...they were great.  You can only say that about one guy in each sport...one that changed his game.  Gretzky (sp?) in hockey.  Babe in Baseball.  I believe it was Dr. J in basketball (remember I am talking about changing the game...), although Jordan perfected it and did Dr. J better than Dr. J.  In Football, it was Johnny Unitas (sp?).  Now, obviously, this is all my own opinion.  To say any of those was the greatest of all time....I don't know.  I really believe it had to be Jordan or Ali.  Both of those guys were true athletes and the greatest.

Ruth got a candy bar named after him, Aaron got the award for the all-around best player named after him...maybe there was a reason.  Ruth was like Ali, extraordinary but they get called 'The Greatest' because they had media circus's around them.

For all of those thinking Ali is the greatest, sorry but look at what kind of damage he sustained...he had something remarkable, but athletes don't take that kind of damage.  Rocky Marciano won, undefeated, he took the damage he had to to win, it didn't have lifetime results like Ali. 
Again, Roy Jones Jr. moved through 5 or 6 weight classes....he didn't even fight at his ideal body weight for the majority of his latter career. 
Sorry folks, Ali wasn't the greatest, extraordinary but not the greatest...ask Frazier.

Baby Ruth candy bars aren't named after Babe Ruth. I am pretty sure they're named for a president's daughter. And I really doubt there was even such a thing as a media circus in the 1920's.

Yeah, actually true about the candy bar, was after a president's daughter, that was just a joke.

And as for the idea of no media circus.....sorry, way wrong there...don't let William Randolph Hearst read this.   (sure, he's dead, but still.)

[CiriusPorker]

then i guess my parents were full of it then.

they told me that baby ruth was for babe ruth, and oh henry was for hank aaron...what a crock!

[Pioneer Fan]

I thought the candy bar thing may have been in jest. 

I am sure there was such a thing as a media circus back then, but there is absolutely no way it compares to anything we see now. The only media around back then was radio and print and a lot of people didn't even own radios. I bet some remote places didn't even get a newspaper regularly. How the hell did those people survive without the internet?

[HogInaStrangeLand]

here it is...
http://www.snopes.com/business/names/babyruth.asp

so probably a case of re-writing history, but can't really be proven.

here's the Oh Henry story
http://www.hersheycanada.com/ohhenryproductpage.asp


ah...think we're off topic...

[HogInaStrangeLand]

read the Baby Ruth article to get an idea of the Media around Babe Ruth...

remember they used to have morning, afternoon, and evening printings, not just daily.

[Pioneer Fan]

Nice work. I wondered why anyone would name a candy bar after a baby.

[HogInaStrangeLand]

Yeah, kind of interesting story...

thanks for the bump...

Back to topic.

Greatest Athlete.

[Pioneer Fan]

read the Baby Ruth article to get an idea of the Media around Babe Ruth...

remember they used to have morning, afternoon, and evening printings, not just daily.

But only in big cities i'm sure. We are talking about days of dirt roads and pig trails as the main roads in places like Arkansas. Wait a minute................

[Ugly Uncle]

I saw  a story on the History channel once talking about Babe Ruth and how he was reported by the media.  One of the stories they told was of the train ride from New York to some place.  There was a whole car for all of the New York media.  They were all sitting around trying to sleep, when all of a sudden the door at the end of the car burst open and the babe came running through the car.  He had no clothes on whatsoever, and had a cigar in his mouth.  He ran as fast as he could all the way through the car and departed out the other side to the next car.  Just as he made it to the next car, the door opened again, and a woman not wearing any clothes at all came running into the car carrying a knife and she was screaming profanities at the Babe.  She was saying, "I'm going to kill you..." and other things.  She chased him in to the next car.

The Sports reporters all just stared at each other.  The Oldest of the reporters finally spoke. He said, "I'm sure glad we didn't see that, or we would have to report it."

It never made the papers and was only discovered in the memoirs of one of the reporters there that night.

[Pioneer Fan]

How about Jackie Robinson?

[HogInaStrangeLand]

Nice pig trail reference...

Are there any GREAT Bullriders, seriously?

That looks like it would take an athlete.

[Pioneer Fan]

Nice pig trail reference...

Are there any GREAT Bullriders, seriously?

That looks like it would take an athlete.

Or someone incredibly stupid with balls the size of grapefruits.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Nice pig trail reference...

Are there any GREAT Bullriders, seriously?

That looks like it would take an athlete.

Or someone incredibly stupid with balls the size of grapefruits.

I think that guy from Beverly Hills 90210 became a great bullrider, so maybe we should say him.

[Richard_white]

Nice pig trail reference...

Are there any GREAT Bullriders, seriously?

I think he tried out that nascar thing as well..lol

That looks like it would take an athlete.

Or someone incredibly stupid with balls the size of grapefruits.

I think that guy from Beverly Hills 90210 became a great bullrider, so maybe we should say him.

[Pioneer Fan]

He is the worst actor in the history of the world. I enjoyed about 6 1/2 seconds of that movie.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Nice pig trail reference...

Are there any GREAT Bullriders, seriously?

I think he tried out that nascar thing as well..lol

That looks like it would take an athlete.

Or someone incredibly stupid with balls the size of grapefruits.

I think that guy from Beverly Hills 90210 became a great bullrider, so maybe we should say him.

Make sure you scroll all the way down from the quote before you type so your post isn't lost in the quote.  I had this problem for a while, just trying to help a brotha out!

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

He is the worst actor in the history of the world. I enjoyed about 6 1/2 seconds of that movie.

Now that's funny.

[Richard_white]

sorry my bad

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

sorry my bad

No, I was just trying to help so your posts don't get lost, b/c you are a good new poster.

WPS

[EastexHawg]

Hey geniuses you can't make an argument based on what didn't happen....sorry to burst your bubble....

Okay, then let's look at what did happen.  After the 1968 season, Hank Aaron had batted 8,263 times in his career...130 fewer career at-bats than Ruth's total of 8,399.  At that time, the comparison between Ruth and Aaron was as follows:

HOME RUNS:  Ruth 714, Aaron 510
RBI: Ruth 2,203, Aaron 1,642
RUNS:  Ruth 2,174, Aaron 1,588

Maybe you believe Aaron would have accumulated the 205 home runs, 562 RBI, and 587 runs scored he needed to surpass Ruth in those categories in his next 130 at-bats.

Also, triples don't prove jack regarding running

Really?  Running isn't involved in triples?  I guess that explains why Willie Wilson led the American League five times and the majors four times in triples...

Furthermore, the pitchers of Aaron's era (60's and 70's) I contest, were much more effective than in the 20's...
Look at who Aaron had to face pitching.

Let's take a look at who was pitching during Ruth's era:

All-Time Wins:
2. Walter Johnson (416)...1907-1927
3. Christy Mathewson (374)...1900-1916
4. Grover Cleveland Alexander (373)...1911-1930

That's three of the top four all-time in wins.  Of course, he also regularly faced Lefty Grove, who has the highest career winning percentage of any 300 game winner.

Both Aaron and Ruth faced good pitching.  But, if as you claim, the pitching was so much better when Aaron played...how do you explain the fact that each of the top 20 pitchers in career ERA ended his career in 1927 or earlier?

You also seem to want to ignore the fact that home runs were much harder to come by during Ruth's time.  When Ruth doubled the existing major league home run record with 54 in 1920, he hit more homers than ANY OTHER TEAM in the majors.

If the pitching was so crappy, why was Ruth the only one capitalizing on it?

Finally, during Ruth's time big league baseball was THE overwhelmingly dominant team sport.  The NFL didn't get started until the 1920s, and it was a minor league with little interest (at least until Red Grange joined the league in 1925).  The NBA did not exist.  The two major sports of the time were baseball and boxing, so the best athletes who weren't boxers played baseball.

Furthermore, the HOUSE THAT RUTH BUILT was built to favor a left hand power hitter
(295 FT) TO THE right foul pole.  Gee, surprisingly Ruth bats left.

Uhhh...are you forgetting the nickname of Atlanta Fulton County Stadium, where Aaron hit most of his home runs...

THE LAUNCHING PAD.

In 1973, Davey Johnson came to the Braves from the Baltimore Orioles.  As an Oriole in 1972, Johnson hit five home runs...and his career high was 18 in a season.  His first year in Atlanta, HE HIT 43 HOMERS.

He ended up with 136 total home runs in his career.

The Braves that year became the first team in major league history with three players hitting 40 or more homers in a season...Aaron, Johnson, and Darrell Evans.

Fulton County Stadium...in the summer, with its heat, high humidity, and highest elevation of any big league park at the time...was known as the best hitter's park in the majors.

[bdutt]

He Hate Me

[ThisLittlePiggie]

Hey geniuses you can't make an argument based on what didn't happen....sorry to burst your bubble....

Okay, then let's look at what did happen.  After the 1968 season, Hank Aaron had batted 8,263 times in his career...130 fewer career at-bats than Ruth's total of 8,399.  At that time, the comparison between Ruth and Aaron was as follows:

HOME RUNS:  Ruth 714, Aaron 510
RBI: Ruth 2,203, Aaron 1,642
RUNS:  Ruth 2,174, Aaron 1,588

Maybe you believe Aaron would have accumulated the 205 home runs, 562 RBI, and 587 runs scored he needed to surpass Ruth in those categories in his next 130 at-bats.

Also, triples don't prove jack regarding running

Really?  Running isn't involved in triples?  I guess that explains why Willie Wilson led the American League five times and the majors four times in triples...

Furthermore, the pitchers of Aaron's era (60's and 70's) I contest, were much more effective than in the 20's...
Look at who Aaron had to face pitching.

Let's take a look at who was pitching during Ruth's era:

All-Time Wins:
2. Walter Johnson (416)...1907-1927
3. Christy Mathewson (374)...1900-1916
4. Grover Cleveland Alexander (373)...1911-1930

That's three of the top four all-time in wins.  Of course, he also regularly faced Lefty Grove, who has the highest career winning percentage of any 300 game winner.

Both Aaron and Ruth faced good pitching.  But, if as you claim, the pitching was so much better when Aaron played...how do you explain the fact that each of the top 20 pitchers in career ERA ended his career in 1927 or earlier?

You also seem to want to ignore the fact that home runs were much harder to come by during Ruth's time.  When Ruth doubled the existing major league home run record with 54 in 1920, he hit more homers than ANY OTHER TEAM in the majors.

If the pitching was so crappy, why was Ruth the only one capitalizing on it?

Finally, during Ruth's time big league baseball was THE overwhelmingly dominant team sport.  The NFL didn't get started until the 1920s, and it was a minor league with little interest (at least until Red Grange joined the league in 1925).  The NBA did not exist.  The two major sports of the time were baseball and boxing, so the best athletes who weren't boxers played baseball.

Furthermore, the HOUSE THAT RUTH BUILT was built to favor a left hand power hitter
(295 FT) TO THE right foul pole.  Gee, surprisingly Ruth bats left.

Uhhh...are you forgetting the nickname of Atlanta Fulton County Stadium, where Aaron hit most of his home runs...

THE LAUNCHING PAD.

In 1973, Davey Johnson came to the Braves from the Baltimore Orioles.  As an Oriole in 1972, Johnson hit five home runs...and his career high was 18 in a season.  His first year in Atlanta, HE HIT 43 HOMERS.

He ended up with 136 total home runs in his career.

The Braves that year became the first team in major league history with three players hitting 40 or more homers in a season...Aaron, Johnson, and Darrell Evans.

Fulton County Stadium...in the summer, with its heat, high humidity, and highest elevation of any big league park at the time...was known as the best hitter's park in the majors.

The guy was correct about one thing Eastex...you are a genius...a baseball genius. The only HR hitter that even approached Ruth based upon at-bats was McGwire. And at 6'6", 250 pounds he didn't need steroids to do it. Big Mac just couldn't motor like the Babe...   

[HogInaStrangeLand]

Ultimately the point is that saying Ruth dominated all of baseball for ever is crazy.  He may have dominated in the 20's, sorry but athletes from the 20's most likely, again we have to speculate, have little on athletes in later decades as our Physical Education programs began to develop.

In the 1920s, '30s, and '40s, the batters were in the ascendancy, and many games had high scores. Leading batters in both leagues usually averaged better than .350 and sometimes higher than .400 for the season. (The batting average is determined by dividing the number of hits by the number of official times a player batted, carrying the resulting figure to three decimal points.) Pitchers gained ascendancy from the late 1950s until the late '80s, when high scores and high averages again became more common.
   
    -that comes from the World Almanac for Kids, but if you want I can find support from other sources.
    - most sources I've read seem to say a similar thing....hitters flourished in 20-40s, pitchers in 50s-80s


Yes, Fulton County stadium was named the "Launching pad", mostly for its high elevation.

No, Fulton County stadium was not built for Aaron's advantage, Yankee Stadium was built for
Ruth's advantage.

[lyon98]

You're correct about Baby Ruths, they were not named after the baseball player. As to Oh Henry, Henry worked for the Williamson candy company. He was the errand boy that did small jobs, every one yelled "Oh Henry, come here" and Williamson decided the name would be welcomed by the public. I prefer Snickers to either, Oh HEnry or Baby Ruths.

[chillinhoggie]

Nice pig trail reference...

Are there any GREAT Bullriders, seriously?

That looks like it would take an athlete.

Yeah actually here in AR Denny Flynn   won the bullriding championship thingy like a hundred times... Lives out by Greenwood I think. used to rent longhorn calves from my dad for his roping school.

[ThisLittlePiggie]

Ultimately the point is that saying Ruth dominated all of baseball for ever is crazy.

Statistically, Ruth did just THAT. Based upon times at bat.

He may have dominated in the 20's, sorry but athletes from the 20's most likely, again we have to speculate, have little on athletes in later decades as our Physical Education programs began to develop.

That's your opinion and not necessarily the thoughts of most baseball experts. Baseball, especially hitting a baseball, never was a result of pure athletic muscle tone or chiseled physiques. Some of the greatest physiques EVER, combined with footspeed and athleticism could NOT HIT A BASEBALL...even at lower levels than the major leagues. Instead, it required a combination of bat speed and hand/eye coordination. Anything else the hitter had in the way of speed and power were just gravy. As a matter of fact, Hank Aaron was one of the scrawnier home run hitters of all time. But he had amazing bat speed. 

In the 1920s, '30s, and '40s, the batters were in the ascendancy, and many games had high scores. Leading batters in both leagues usually averaged better than .350 and sometimes higher than .400 for the season. (The batting average is determined by dividing the number of hits by the number of official times a player batted, carrying the resulting figure to three decimal points.) Pitchers gained ascendancy from the late 1950s until the late '80s, when high scores and high averages again became more common.

Well let's see, the major leagues lopped 5 inches off the pitchers' mound in 1969 (Aaron still had 8 more years to play) because the pitchers were dominating the game and had been for years and years, including Ruth's entire career. Bob Gibson's ERA was 1.12 in 68, hence the decrease to mound height. Throw in the livelier baseball from the 1960s on and I will argue with the WA for Kids all dang day about that fact. That's just BS.

Yes, Fulton County stadium was named the "Launching pad", mostly for its high elevation.

Wrong. It was home run heaven. The launch came FROM the batters' box. The nickname had absolutely nothing to do with the elevation of the stadium in Atlanta.

No, Fulton County stadium was not built for Aaron's advantage,

And who said it did? When they built it nobody really thought about it being a "lauching pad".

Yankee Stadium was built for Ruth's advantage.

Not at all. It was built because the Yankees needed a stadium large enough to accomodate the demand for tickets BECAUSE OF Babe Ruth and the Yankees' success in the years prior to 1923. Simple as that. They just pegged the nickname to the biggest drawing card of the Yankee team.

[Theolesnort]

Jim Thorpe hands down. He dominated his time like no one has before or since. He did it all football track baseball basketball etc

[lyon98]

Boxes were added to the older stadiums that produced foul balls into the net that could have been caught as outs in Ruths era. Much more room for the catchers to make plays for outs during Ruth's time.

[HogInaStrangeLand]

//That's your opinion and not necessarily the thoughts of most baseball experts. Baseball, especially hitting a baseball, never was a result of pure athletic muscle tone or chiseled physiques. Some of the greatest physiques EVER, combined with footspeed and athleticism could NOT HIT A BASEBALL...even at lower levels than the major leagues. Instead, it required a combination of bat speed and hand/eye coordination. Anything else the hitter had in the way of speed and power were just gravy. As a matter of fact, Hank Aaron was one of the scrawnier home run hitters of all time. But he had amazing bat speed. 
  
Well let's see, the major leagues lopped 5 inches off the pitchers' mound in 1969 (Aaron still had 8 more years to play) because the pitchers were dominating the game and had been for years and years, including Ruth's entire career. Bob Gibson's ERA was 1.12 in 68, hence the decrease to mound height. Throw in the livelier baseball from the 1960s on and I will argue with the WA for Kids all dang day about that fact. That's just BS.
//

Let me see, you say good baseball hitters aren't necessarily the best athletes...I agree 100%
Ruth is not the greatest athlete.
Sorry an athlete has to be able to run and not misjudge his own running ability.

You agree that the pitchers had the advantage over hitters for more than 2/3 of Aaron's career.  Furthermore, I still contest the pitchers were not dominate over hitters during the 20s and 30s, the overall batting averages are too high.

Babe Ruth hit so many homeruns because he weighed a lot.  Which can easily translate into bat speed.

In an era with high batting averages he made contact more.  In most of the pictures I see of Ruth and his homeruns he is looking down that right field line that was 295 ft. 

He hit so many triples not because of his running ability but because Yankee Stadium had a ridiculously deep center field. That's why his doubles fall off.  Because of the shape of the stadium not his ability to run.

My arguments are these.

1-Solo baseball player not best ATHLETE, someone like Bo, MJ, Winfield maybe because they are multi-sport.

2-Can't compare different eras to one another.

3-Because of first two cases Ruth isn't the greatest ATHLETE, nor can be stated as DOMINATING over players that didn't face similar situations.

(It's just plain science, you can't compare two things that have so many variables...at least not with any significant level of certainty... that's also why we can't really say who is the greatest, like all math and science we can only say who isn't....Ruth definetly isn't.)

[hogtheball]

How was MJ multi-sport? 

[HogInaStrangeLand]

Basketball, Baseball, some could consider his golf game.

Michael Jordan...the original MJ.

Also, Matt Jones did play football and basketball.

but, no Michael Jordan is who I'm refering.

[lyon98]

MJ played for nashville or Birmingham and not very well. He did buy a new team bus since they required him to ride on it.

[hogtheball]

He batted .202 in AA ball and that was the best part of his game.  He got on the team for ticket sales, nothing else. Jordan didn't even play college baseball.  If you are saying Jordan is the best athlete of all time, you don't want anybody to remember his semi-pro baseball nightmare.  Let his basketball speak for itself.

[EastexHawg]

Ruth wasn't always heavy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-BABE-RUTH-AUTOGRAPH-8X10-SIGNED-PHOTO-L-K_W0QQitemZ8767127576QQcategoryZ50129QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

http://cgi.ebay.com/BABE-RUTH-8x10-Vintage-B-W-Photo-bambino-BOSTON-RED-SOX_W0QQitemZ8767012132QQcategoryZ37587QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Through his early to mid 20s, Babe Ruth was 6'2", weighed 215 pounds, and was a never-before-or-since-seen combination of power, hand-eye coordination, and all around ability to hit a baseball better than anyone else who ever played the game.  He was also one of the top pitchers in major league history.

He would have been a Hall of Famer as a pitcher, but his incredible hitting ability made it necessary to move him to another position so his bat could be in the lineup every day.

No one else has ever done that, and no one ever will.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in order to be considered the greatest athlete of all time, I think it a player probably needs to be the greatest in at least the sport in which he specialized.  For me, that narrows the list to the following:

Baseball:  Ruth
Football: Jim Brown
Basketball:  Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain
Hockey:  Wayne Gretzky
Golf:  Jack Nicklaus
Cycling:  Lance Armstrong
Track and Field:  probably Carl Lewis, maybe Jesse Owens
Tennis:  Tough call.  Maybe Rod Laver, Pete Sampras, or Bjorn Borg.

Who knows what any of those guys may have done if they had decided to pursue another sport.  Jack Nicklaus was a tremendous all-around athlete as a youngster, and probably could have played either basketball or football on the collegiate level.  We already know about Jim Brown's exploits.  Chamberlain was a world class volleyball player among his other athletic skills.  Bob Hayes was the fastest man on earth when he won the 100 meter gold at the Tokyo Olympics, then became one of the greatest deep threats in NFL history as a Cowboy.

O.J. Simpson was, I believe, a member of the world record 4x100 meter relay team at USC before he became one of the two greatest backs of the last 40 years (IMO)...and before he killed his wife and another victim.

Deion and Bo played multiple major league sports, and they are no doubt great athletes.  But I don't think we have to disqualify athletes from the list simply because they never attempted to play another major league sport. 

Babe Ruth was the highest paid athlete in team sports as a Yankee.  He was pulling in $80,000 per year during the Depression.  Why did he need to try to play any other sport?