Agree or Disagree with this Comment from Ivan Maisel?

[ErieHog]

Disagree.  Those schools had to start out just like the West Virginia's, Louisville's, South Florida's, etc.  You can become good at something if you dedicate enough time and money.  Just look at Duke basketball.  How did a school like Duke become one of the biggest basketball elite?

A long, long road.

Duke isn't just a Krzyzewski-inspired legacy.   It dates back to the 1950s, when Duke was a perennial Top 20 team, and  the 1960s when Duke rose to serious prominence under Vic Bubas, going to 3 Final Fours (including a national runner-up finish) and an Elite Eight in a seven year period.   When Krzyzewski arrived on campus, they were coming off of 3 consecutive NCAA appearances, in an era before the expanded tournament, including an Elite Eight appearance the year before his arrival, and a National Runner-Up season 3 years before he stepped in to coach.

[hoosier]

I think it depends on your age. People in their late 40's or older will remember the "glory years" more so than someone younger. Ask them the first team they think of when you say Rose Bowl and it's probably USC or Ohio St. Cotton Bowl-Texas, Orange Bowl-OU, Sugar Bowl-Bama or UGA.
I agree with him to a point but I don't see these traditional powerhouses being able to continue winning every year. I think we will see a lot more years like this one than seasons where 2,3 or 4 teams go undefeated.

[dman]

Alabama with Bryant and Stallings, but these were back in the day.  Notre Dame should be in the mix.  Arkansas's tradition is very good, but not royalty status, even though I believe it is better than Tennessee.

[SirCHog]

I'd have to say yes because there was a time in my life when Arkansas would have been included in that group.

[CowHog]

agreed

[usnavyhogfan]

fair enough, he did leave out a few key schools though

[PulledPork]

agree



Pulled In!

[saywhat?]

12 claimed; 3-4 legit.

17 claimed, 7 legit.

[yraciv]

Agreed except for Alabama!  They've fallen from the royalty tier after the scandals and coaching changes.

[FHSHater]

I don't recognize Ohio State on that list.  They've got to be the most undeserving team in all of division 1.

[ErieHog]

17 claimed, 7 legit.

Nah.

12 Claimed, 3-4 legit.   The best breakdown of  'Alabama Championships' is available at:  http://yourfootballdiet.blogspot.com/2007/11/alabamas-12-national-championships.html

[Conway Cool Daddy]

Erie, which is the more "elite" football school- LSU or Georgia?

[ErieHog]

Erie, which is the more "elite" football school- LSU or Georgia?

Off the cuff, I'd say Georgia.

More sustained success over the past 50 years than LSU;  they also lay claim to arguably the greatest player in the history of CFB.     They also have 1 more SEC title than LSU, and the same number of NCs, albeit one of Georgia's is more dated than LSU's oldest title.  Georgia is also a significantly better bowl team than LSU.

[alohawg]

 

[alohawg]

I added the part Ivan forgot to include.

I agree that the tradition of some programs is unsurpassed.  But, IMHO, Arkansas ranks right up there with OU and Georgia in tradition...and Tennessee can't touch our tradition.

My pick of the 3 prettiest cheerleaders in that pic....#3) 1st row 3rd from left.....#2) 1st row 4th from left ......and #1) 2nd row 5th from left(wow)  honorable mention to all, they're all pretty girls, GHG!

[artyhog]

Agreed

[tolerati]

Alot of it is also publicity and hype. Those are the schools that are traditionally hyped and publicized by the sports world. Take away the publicity and apply them to different schools and most of the "so-called" royalty schools would evolve into has-beens. Those schools are perceived to be the royal schools...but reality is many times something different. Notre Dame, for instance, is a traditional power, even though it is not perceived that way at the moment.

[outsider]

I added the part Ivan forgot to include.

I agree that the tradition of some programs is unsurpassed.  But, IMHO, Arkansas ranks right up there with OU and Georgia in tradition...and Tennessee can't touch our tradition.

If you think Arkansas's tradition matches OU, I hope your family loves you enough to have you on "Intervention."

[ErieHog]

If you think Arkansas's tradition matches OU, I hope your family loves you enough to have you on "Intervention."

Same with Georgia and Tennessee.

[Conway Cool Daddy]

Off the cuff, I'd say Georgia.

More sustained success over the past 50 years than LSU;  they also lay claim to arguably the greatest player in the history of CFB.     They also have 1 more SEC title than LSU, and the same number of NCs, albeit one of Georgia's is more dated than LSU's oldest title.  Georgia is also a significantly better bowl team than LSU.

Thanks Erie.

For some reason whenever I think of LSU tradition I think of "Everybody's All- American"
with Dennis Quaid.

It's tough to beat the Ghost.

[TheNuttlessFrontier]

If you think Arkansas's tradition matches OU, I hope your family loves you enough to have you on "Intervention."

AR was just as relevant throughout the 20th century as OU.  Both programs began a decline in the 90's.  OU bounced back quicker.  But that does not make them a more traditional program than AR. 

[ErieHog]

AR was just as relevant throughout the 20th century as OU.  Both programs began a decline in the 90's.  OU bounced back quicker.  But that does not make them a more traditional program than AR. 

Wow.  Those are some seriously  Razorback-rose-colored glasses you've got there.

I hate OU, but they blow Arkansas away, in terms of tradition.

7 Unified National Titles (50,55,56,74,75,85,  and 2000);   5 more bowl appearances than Arkansas, and a massively more impressive bowl record *and* resume.

[outsider]

AR was just as relevant throughout the 20th century as OU.  Both programs began a decline in the 90's.  OU bounced back quicker.  But that does not make them a more traditional program than AR. 

7 national championships! You must be kidding!

[TheNuttlessFrontier]

I didn't realize tradition was only constituted by championships. 

I thought elements like gameday traditions, national respect and competitive performances on the field all played a part.  But to each his own, I guess.

[ErieHog]

I didn't realize tradition was only constituted by championships. 

I thought elements like gameday traditions, national respect and competitive performances on the field all played a part.  But to each his own, I guess.

National Respect, Competitive Performance, and a Gameday Tradition that's synonymous with college football, in the form of the stupid Sooner Schooner?

I hate Oklahoma with a passion, but geeze.  They beat Arkansas on every single one of those counts.

[drivetimeporks]

..........as long as we have the bcs system, the schools on top will be allowed tostay on longer.. ie..lsu didnt "earn" a trip to the championship this year..

[Lard]

They have like 12 National Titles...

Really they have like 3 and they claim 9 more.

[SpiritHog]

Disagree. The tradition factor is going the way of the dinosaur. Just look at Notre Dame, one of the most storied programs of all time and hardly anyone wants to play there these days.

Well put.

[buckhawg]

I would say the top program today is Ohio State.  You can't go every other year without those dang silver helmets playing for the championship.

I don't recognize Ohio State on that list.  They've got to be the most undeserving team in all of division 1.

I sense some jealousy FHSHater.  I might even give you this year but not the whole history of college football.
weak schedule- sure this year but normally play a good national game ( Tx Usc Va tech ND )
and the normal cupcakes that EVERYONE plays
Weak conference--not the SEC but it is the conference we have been in for 75 years sometimes it was good sometimes it wasn't
no talent--check the NFL rosters they don't take people because espn tells them to.

[Tammany Tom]

It depends on your definition of royalty.  Alabama has amazing history and tradition, but over the last deacade or so it has been more like the British Royal family- lots of window dressing but no real power to back it up.  Times change and so do dynasties.

Agree with this statement. Royalties and Dynasties change. Dynasties have changed due to the incredible population growth in the south in over the last 30 years, television, and scholarship limitations.

Alabama was once a great dynasty. Alabama once dominated LSU. All has changed over the last 25 years since the Bear left. Over the last 25 years LSU leads the head to head record 13-12. Bama has 3 SEC Championships and 1 National Championship over the past 25 years. LSU has 5 SEC Championships and 1 National Championship and playing for another over the past 25 years. So is Alabama a greater dyanasty than LSU in today's college football world? No.

The Florida schools were basically non-existent prior to 1980. Since 1980, the state of Florida has been THE dominant state in College Football. Miami has won 5 National Championships, Florida State 2, and Florida 2 all since 1980. I can't see where at least one of these teams will not be an elite team over the next 25 years.

Notre Dame WAS College Football at one time. Because of academic qualifications they are no longer considered an elite program. Popular Yes, Elite No.

Television has changed things dramatically. Programs like Nebraska could recruit places like Florida and New Jersey very successfully at one time. Because of television, they can't do it so successfully any longer. Programs like Rutgers and USF get on National TV now and local kids that once went out of state no longer have to in order to play on television.

[Smokehouse]

Agreed as long as we're using the BCS ranking system, which wouldn't go away even if there was a playoff system put in place. The voting on the coaches and media polls are just too political, so storied programs will always get a leg up and they'd have to have a Notre Dame like year to fall completely from grace with the voters. If we were any of those schools, we wouldn't have fallen out of the rankings after the Alabama loss, and I bet we would have creeped in higher than we did after LSU.

[Oklahawg]

Check this thread in 10 years. You'll see a couple of names missing from the "elite" and a couple of new names.

How many months ago would some have included Virginia Tech as an "et al"? KState?

Sit down -- Nebraska? Five years ago they were at the pinnacle.

[rhinohog]

agree,that is the PERCEPTION

[buckhawg]

Agree with this statement. Royalties and Dynasties change. Dynasties have changed due to the incredible population growth in the south in over the last 30 years, television, and scholarship limitations.

Alabama was once a great dynasty. Alabama once dominated LSU. All has changed over the last 25 years since the Bear left. Over the last 25 years LSU leads the head to head record 13-12. Bama has 3 SEC Championships and 1 National Championship over the past 25 years. LSU has 5 SEC Championships and 1 National Championship and playing for another over the past 25 years. So is Alabama a greater dyanasty than LSU in today's college football world? No.

The Florida schools were basically non-existent prior to 1980. Since 1980, the state of Florida has been THE dominant state in College Football. Miami has won 5 National Championships, Florida State 2, and Florida 2 all since 1980. I can't see where at least one of these teams will not be an elite team over the next 25 years.

Notre Dame WAS College Football at one time. Because of academic qualifications they are no longer considered an elite program. Popular Yes, Elite No.

Television has changed things dramatically. Programs like Nebraska could recruit places like Florida and New Jersey very successfully at one time. Because of television, they can't do it so successfully any longer. Programs like Rutgers and USF get on National TV now and local kids that once went out of state no longer have to in order to play on television.

Great post especially the part about television. I think that and the 85 limit rule are the two single biggest factors in CF today.  I know some have poked fun at the BIG TEN NETWORK and it is not the most professional yet, but it is national with DTV and DNW  That means every game in the Big Ten wil be national. Not regional but national.  That could have a huge impact on recruiting.

[Hog5150]

disagree..the only ROYALTY these days is USC...

Also, it seems they equate a team as being of "Royalty" with who the coach is, ie. Saban, Meyer, Spurrier, Bowden, Joe Pa, etc...)

[bythelake]

I think that Missery has less chance of beating us this year than they did when MJ was the man.  We will run the ball down their throats.  Missery just is not that strong.  Dang I hope that I am right.

[tiderback]

But do they still have that championship stigma?  Not really...

If You still don't believe they still have that stigma just listen to any coach being interviewed talking about thier team being compared to Florida, Alabama,Tennesee, etc.  I have high hopes that my fathers team " The Hawgs " will reach this pinnacle in his life time.  I believe the winds are starting to blow Your way.  But if Alabama wins number 13 in the next few years it will further more fan the flames of thier tradition.  Theres no denying that.  all My hog friends here in Arkansas act as though they are among the ellete because they're proud of who they are.  Amagine how high Your head will be after Arky has 5 or 6 National championships under its belt...  Not to mention the media hype about You " royalty ".  Stay positive.  You guys have landed s great coach.

[tiderback]

12 claimed; 3-4 legit.

Wrong!  They have 12. They have the silver cups to prove it. However You want to argue it the record stays the same. Anybody can have rings made that say whatever they like. The cups are official.  Sour grapes can be hard to swallow. Even after 43 years.  True winners don't dwell on " Shoulda, coulda, woulda ".  They step up and keep on winning.  Read the book " The Lost Ring " by Kenneth Dunnavant.  It's an excellent book about being robbed of a championship.  And it's aftermath.  I'm not trying to give You a hard time.  Be we can't envy someone elses tradition because we haven't made the similar achievements. It borders on infintile behavior.  Good luck next season.  I really like your new coach.  He will make an amazing change in his new team.

[ErieHog]

    Wrong!  They have 12. They have the silver cups to prove it. However You want to argue it the record stays the same. Anybody can have rings made that say whatever they like. The cups are official.  Sour grapes can be hard to swallow. Even after 43 years.  True winners don't dwell on " Shoulda, coulda, woulda ".  They step up and keep on winning.  Read the book " The Lost Ring " by Kenneth Dunnavant.  It's an excellent book about being robbed of a championship.  And it's aftermath.  I'm not trying to give You a hard time.  Be we can't envy someone elses tradition because we haven't made the similar achievements. It borders on infintile behavior.  Good luck next season.  I really like your new coach.  He will make an amazing change in his new team.

Claiming NCs 5 to 10 years after the event  doesn't make them legitimate.    White-wash the past if you will, but Alabama has a lot less tradition than they claim.

[WholeHogSmoker]

Agree with what he's saying.  He could have replaced a couple names with a couple left off and he would still be right. 

[elkhog]

What is he trying to tell us?  That Missouri, WV and ARKANSAS can never aspire to such heights?  If that is his message, I DISAGREE!

[Albert Einswine]

    Wrong!  They have 12. They have the silver cups to prove it. However You want to argue it the record stays the same. Anybody can have rings made that say whatever they like. The cups are official.  Sour grapes can be hard to swallow. Even after 43 years.  True winners don't dwell on " Shoulda, coulda, woulda ".  They step up and keep on winning.  Read the book " The Lost Ring " by Kenneth Dunnavant.  It's an excellent book about being robbed of a championship.  And it's aftermath.  I'm not trying to give You a hard time.  Be we can't envy someone elses tradition because we haven't made the similar achievements. It borders on infintile behavior.  Good luck next season.  I really like your new coach.  He will make an amazing change in his new team.

College Football Data Warehouse recognizes 11 and that includes the one in 1964 you share with us.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/nchamps_team.php

[budcampbellfan]

I agree.

And - VaTech and the likes (more so than Missouri) should never be in the top 10.  Arkansas would be in the Royal Family if Broyles had persued it rather than the cheap-john, "just satisfy the fans in general" policy since Holtz.

[tiderback]

No matter how any of us feel about the 1964 national title Alabama was awarded it before the bowl game.  That is how it was done in those days.  It is also one of the reasons that rule changed.  But Alabama was awarded the national title by the AP.  And if college football warehouse recognizes 11 that is certainly better than the "3-4 legitimate ones"  aforementioned.  Alabama's history began way back in the late 1920's.  Granted things have changed alot but I assure you that if Arkansas had been awarded all those titles they would claim them as well.  Scholarship limitations and television have definitely evened the playing field.  There were days the Bear could sign as many players as he wanted to scholarships and many of them never played, but they did not play for his opponent either.  Those days are over.  Because of the Bear's success on the field many players wanted to play for him so they came to Bama.  This is one of the reasons the program was so successful in his day.  Things have definitely changed.  Alabama is not the same dominant program it used to be but in some ways it does get respect based on its history but along with that comes a lot of criticism and hatred. 

[tiderback]

Claiming NCs 5 to 10 years after the event  doesn't make them legitimate.    White-wash the past if you will, but Alabama has a lot less tradition than they claim.

On what grounds do you make this claim?  There is no whitewashing the truth.  I have seen the 12 trophies myself as you could as well if so inclined.  This general claim/rumor that Alabama has to lie about championships is ridiculous.  You can't whitewash the truth anymore than you can envy.  It is what it is!

[wholehog92]

"We are all engorged with the parity college football served up every week this fall. But no matter how many Missouris and West Virginias threaten to stage a coup d'etat in this sport, there will always be royalty. Think of the schools whose tradition is immediately recognizable across the nation: USC, Texas, Oklahoma, Ohio State, Michigan, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, et al."

I tend to think this is an old philosophy that was accurate at one time.  All things in todays society are temporal.  Ergo if you are good for even three seasons, you are a football elite.  Look at West Virginia, or even Wisconsin.  They have become "Teams to be reckoned with" in terms of national noteriety.  Neither have ever won a NC and were not that impressive over any 10 year span.  They each have a legitamate shot at any recruit in the country that is not a fan of a certain program.  This is the reason why AR needed to hire a big time coach now.  We are on the bubble of either falling off of the radar or becoming a major player.  We made the right move.

[ErieHog]

On what grounds do you make this claim?  There is no whitewashing the truth.  I have seen the 12 trophies myself as you could as well if so inclined.  This general claim/rumor that Alabama has to lie about championships is ridiculous.  You can't whitewash the truth anymore than you can envy.  It is what it is!

The truth, for starters.

1925, 1926, 1930.  All back-dated titles.  These titles were awarded years after the fact. 

1934--The first year for the AP poll;  Minnesota wins the AP.

1941- The most egregious of Alabama's bogus titles.  Alabama finished the season with 2 losses and ranked #20 in the final AP poll.   5 other teams were named 'national champions' in one form or another, and Alabama makes it a 6th with their claim.

1973--Alabama goes 11-1 and is chosen by the UPI.  Notre Dame goes 11-0 and is crowned by the AP as NC.  Who did the Irish beat in the Sugar Bowl?  Why, Alabama, handing the Tide their only loss.  Again, a bogus NC.

1978--Split title year, AP going to Alabama, and the UPI going to USC, both having lost a single game.   Alabama lost the head to head match up of the teams.   Both won their bowl games.  Another bogus NC.

This doesn't even count the 1964 'title' that belongs to Arkansas, and the 1961 case where Bama had a legitimately strong argument (though not perfect).

Anyone can claim anything they want.   You can go down to your local trophy shop, and buy a trophy saying you are the King of the World, but it simply doesn't make it so.

[Albert Einswine]

No matter how any of us feel about the 1964 national title Alabama was awarded it before the bowl game.  That is how it was done in those days.  It is also one of the reasons that rule changed.  But Alabama was awarded the national title by the AP.  And if college football warehouse recognizes 11 that is certainly better than the "3-4 legitimate ones"  aforementioned.  Alabama's history began way back in the late 1920's.  Granted things have changed alot but I assure you that if Arkansas had been awarded all those titles they would claim them as well.  Scholarship limitations and television have definitely evened the playing field.  There were days the Bear could sign as many players as he wanted to scholarships and many of them never played, but they did not play for his opponent either.  Those days are over.  Because of the Bear's success on the field many players wanted to play for him so they came to Bama.  This is one of the reasons the program was so successful in his day.  Things have definitely changed.  Alabama is not the same dominant program it used to be but in some ways it does get respect based on its history but along with that comes a lot of criticism and hatred. 

College Football Data Warehouse also recognizes Arkansas as the 1964 National Champions.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/nchamps_year.php

[Porkem]

Agree with the list...though some of those "royalty" schools

have lost their luster...namely, Alabama.

[samson73103]

Really they have like 3 and they claim 9 more.

And how many does R-Kansas have?  I might also mention Bama is #7 on the all-time list of victories and has 21 SEC titles, far more than any other team.  But I suppose in your Hog colored glasses, you'll find some way to dispute that.  Bama claims only 12 NC's although some sources credit them with 17.  Deal with it!