Tired of Mcgwire catching the heat...

[OKC]

I may be missing the point, but I don't understand what the big deal is about McGwire's refusal to admit to or deny the use of steroids. The media and everybody is saying the he is basically admitting to using them. I think most people already believe that he was using them. IMO he was the only guy there that didn't lie in the hearing. Maybe Palmeiro didn't. Anyways, McGwire is getting bashed by the media, like he was the only one to use them when it is pretty clear that Sosa, Bonds, Giambi etc...have. Now they are talking no Hall of Fame for him. That's something to debate, but if he doesn't get in then Bonds, Sosa and others shouldn't have a shot either.
  My official stance on steroids is "don't use them", but I'll admit, I really loved watching the home runs fly. I say forget about it and move on.

[weevilhogg]

McGwire straddled the fence.

He pudded out when he had a chance to step up and set the record straight.

If he would have said "no I did not use them" that would have been fine.  Granted, he might have been lying if he said that, thus bringing up the issue of perjury.  Maybe that's why he was so emoionally shaken.  On one hand he wanted to lie and on the other he wanted to tell the truth and on the othe (third hand?) he didn't want to dissappoint people.


I always loved watching Mac play ball.  I, along with 40 thousand other Cub fans, gave him a standing ovation during a game at Wrigley in his final season (dude hit 2 bombs to beat the cubs 3-1).

I would still have respect for Mac if he'd have said, "yes I used sterroids.  I messed up.  I'll pay the piper and now I no longer want to be part of the problem ---- I want to be part of the solution."


Mac is still a HOF'er.  I think if this thing goes too much further, the writers may penalize him with a 2 or 3 year wait.


How about Ding a ling sosa?  Uses an interpreter to say he didn't use 'roids. . . . . . .  .this might give him the excuse of "I" didn't lie in front of congress. .  . . .

[OKC]

I agree, it was painful to watch his testimony with him struggling through it. It just aggrivates me that every time I turn the t.v. on whether it's sportscenter or fox news, they seem to be giving it to big mac and all the time I'm thinking they are missing the bigger story.

[WindyCityHog]

I was always a big McGwire fan.....and it broke my heart to see how he testified.  The tears didn't help, and constantly refusing to talk about the past certainly didn't help.  Tony LaRussa said he believes Big Mac was "overcoached".....which, IMHO, is just plain BS.

McGwire, during his playing days, especially later, had a reputation for being surly with the media, and that certainly isn't going to help his Hall of Fame chances....but let's face it....Barry Bonds admitted during the BALCO hearings that he used steriods (a "cream"), and I don't see him having a problem getting in to the Hall.

People have a bevy of opinions when it comes to this issue.....and personally, baseball is taking a HUGE hit when it comes to the matter.  Out of all the major sports, baseball ignored the issue the longest, and now that problem is coming to roost.  The integrity of the game is being questioned, and rightfully so.

As for Sosa....What a chump.  After his corked-bat incident, does he have ANY credibility?  NO.  That guy is the king of drillrods..

[weevilhogg]

The bigger story is that there was fo' sho' some lying going on.


1)  Canseco claims Palmeiro did roids

2)  Palmeiro denies


Someone is lying under oath

Also, what about schilling?

Calls Jose a liar because he (curt) has "never seen a syringe."


What kills me is that for years, a good many fans whined and cried about sterroids. . . . . but especially crying about it now.

Now that MLB has proven they won't do squat about it, congress steps in and a good many fans are crying "doesn't congress have better stuff to do?  just let mlb work it out."


I know I will be ecstatic when it's all said and done and we can get on to some baseball. . . . .void of the roids.

[mikeirwin]

There's too much BS in the world. Hiding behind phrases like, "I want to talk about the positives" is a smoke screen for the obvious: I don't want to tell the truth because the truth will make me look bad.
He could have told the truth, admitted he made a big mistake and promised to spend the rest of his life telling kids not to do what he did and why.
Instead he listened to lawyers.
If some of you don't understand what the big deal about steroids is ask Shannon Wright's mom. Ask Lyle Alzado's family. Ask anybody who's ever had to deal with the after effects of steroid use gone wrong.

[Boarcephus]

McGwire straddled the fence.

I would still have respect for Mac if he'd have said, "yes I used sterroids. I messed up. I'll pay the piper and now I no longer want to be part of the problem ---- I want to be part of the solution."

Has a little Clintonesque ring to it doesn't it?   Very disappointed in McGwire because I always thought of him as a standup type of guy but I see I was wrong.

Obviously baseball doesn't care if it's going on or they'd deal with it.  Their only concern it putting fannies in the seats, making the owners $$$ and all else be darned.   I love the collegiate game and this is just another reason I've lost interest in this professional sport as well as the others. 

[HogInMemphis]

There's too much BS in the world. Hiding behind phrases like, "I want to talk about the positives" is a smoke screen for the obvious: I don't want to tell the truth because the truth will make me look bad.
He could have told the truth, admitted he made a big mistake and promised to spend the rest of his life telling kids not to do what he did and why.
Instead he listened to lawyers.
If some of you don't understand what the big deal about steroids is ask Shannon Wright's mom. Ask Lyle Alzado's family. Ask anybody who's ever had to deal with the after effects of steroid use gone wrong.

McGwire is a dumbass if he thinks we're buying the, "I'm here to talk about the future, not about my past" BS. He used steroids, period. His home run records should be at least asterisked if not voided. They were obtained by artificial means. Same for Sosa, that lying sack of darn. Look at photos of Sosa and Bonds from 15 years ago and look at them now - they look like different people. No amount of dieting and working out can transform a person that much. It takes steroids to do that and they took them, along with McGwire. They should all have any stats asterisked if not deleted from the record books.

If I was another major leaguer who didn't take performance enhancing drugs, I'd really be screaming for MLB to remove the stats of players who have taken them from the record books.

[WindyCityHog]

There's too much BS in the world. Hiding behind phrases like, "I want to talk about the positives" is a smoke screen for the obvious: I don't want to tell the truth because the truth will make me look bad.
He could have told the truth, admitted he made a big mistake and promised to spend the rest of his life telling kids not to do what he did and why.
Instead he listened to lawyers.
If some of you don't understand what the big deal about steroids is ask Shannon Wright's mom. Ask Lyle Alzado's family. Ask anybody who's ever had to deal with the after effects of steroid use gone wrong.

McGwire is a dumbass if he thinks we're buying the, "I'm here to talk about the future, not about my past" BS. He used steroids, period. His home run records should be at least asterisked if not voided. They were obtained by artificial means. Same for Sosa, that lying sack of Shiite. Look at photos of Sosa and Bonds from 15 years ago and look at them now - they look like different people. No amount of dieting and working out can transform a person that much. It takes steroids to do that and they took them, along with McGwire. They should all have any stats asterisked if not deleted from the record books.

If I was another major leaguer who didn't take performance enhancing drugs, I'd really be screaming for MLB to remove the stats of players who have taken them from the record books.

I think some are already doing that HiM....

Jim Bunning (a former great MLB pitcher and a current Senator) opened the hearing by saying that the records should be viewed....

Hank Aaron, formerly a Bonds backer, really cooled off to the bigheaded basher after the BALCO testimony.

Next....it will be the sportswriters....and the Hall of Fame...It's coming...give it time, although it's slow.

[weevilhogg]

Just create the "Sterroid Users" wing of the HOF and give them their own record books.

[hawkeyefan17]

They deserve all the heat they get. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds and whoever else should not be put in the hall of fame and their records should be taken off the books.

McGwire just looked stupid up there and it was tough to watch. Sosa and McGwire are in the same boat to me, Sammy just didn't make himself look stupid. History will look at all of these guys in the same way and will be a little tougher on McGwire because of his testimony in front of congress. That is not how it should be but that is how it is. It will be tough to shake the image of McGwire sitting up there and looking weak, scared and sad.

[Oklahawg]

I've posted elsewhere that I found Palmiero's testimony to be particularly Clintonesque--finger-waggling and all. And, note that Palmiero said "I didn't use steroids". He couldn't say "performance enhancing drugs" because he was/is a spokesman for Viagra.

I play very competitive slow-pitch softball with a former D1 hoops player who also played minor league baseball. He's huge, about 6-5 x 250. We commented yesterday at batting practice that we are much better hitters in our late 30s than we were a decade ago. We are stronger and smarter, even if our overall physical package isn't what it used to be. I teach. By the time August rolls around my softball playing gets me is very good physical shape--I am able to do flexibility things that my athletes who are HS kids can't do.

All of the last paragraph is about debunking Bunning's claim that players in the late-30s are not as talented as players in their late-20s. When Bunning was playing no one did off-season conditioning beyond maybe playing catch and jogging. Players go year-round with weight training, and fitness/flexibility training. Medical science allows for us to do a better job of fixing eyesight. MLB hitters use the same strobe-light stuff that Donovan McNabb used to adjust to the speed of the NFL--it helps their reflexes dramatically.

McGwire was a stout young man coming out of USC. Bonds was much lighter but the build was there to bulk up. To add 40 pounds of muscle over a couple of years of year-round weight training is not unreasonable. In one year? Okay, I don't know about that one.

Mike's comments about Lyle Alzado and Shannon Wright were right on--football players have a lot more to gain than baseball players from steroids. Steroids won't make you more flexible or help your reflexes or your eyesight. Human Growth Hormone (HGH) claims some of that, by the way, but that wasn't the target substance during the hearings. Its not a steroid.

Bonds has the best batting eye since George Brett, circa 1980, or Don Mattingly in the mid-80s. Probably supercedes those guys by some measure. That has nothing to do with steroids. Bonds may have been juicing for years but that doesn't account for his eye at the plate. Talk to his eye doctor.

McGwire's deal is that he is on record for using andro, which is still available over the counter at the local health food store. Should he have admitted/reminded us of that? Sure.

[Fletch]

It's true that steroids doesn't help your eye at the plate and it doesn't give you the talent to play the game. Those traits are aleady there for all big league players. What it does do though is "enhances" performance. You may be known as a great contact hitter but with steroids that ball hit b/w short and third that a good fielder would normally get to suddenly has enough juice (pardon the pun) to get through. That 380 foot routine flyout suddenly goes over the fence. The examples go on and on. If there wasn't anything to gain performance wise from using steroids, nobody would use them.

[Pragmatic PiG]

Big Mac used the "andro discovery" as a smokescreen for the real stuff anyways

its all contrived, image saving desperation

i am ready for 2-1 games to return, along with basestealing, hit n' run, suicide squeeze, hitting behing runners to advance, major league defense,.......basically a return to the game of baseball, national league style.......the ONLY WAY

After 'roids get cleaned up, time to push to get rid of the DH.........

[Fletch]

Pragmatic Pig I think you just described the hogs baseball team.  Now that's baseball. Not always the biggest names or the most talent but they sure know how to win.

[Porkahontas]

Check this out. I just did some research on Jose Canseco and Rafael Palmeiro. The thing to remember here is that Jose Canseco arrived in Texas right before the trade deadline in 1992. That would make 1993 the first season after he arrived in Texas, meaning he had the entire offseason and spring training to hang out with Pudge Rodriguez, Juan Gonzalez, and our good friend Rafael Palmeiro. Any notable change in power would probably occur in 1993 if Canseco actually did introduce steriods to Palmeiro, right? Here's Rafael Palmeiro's career stats listed below. Do you see what I see? Note that Palmeiro didn't have nearly as many at-bats in 1994 because of an injury, so his numbers are naturally gonna be lower in '94 than if he had played a full season. (The season Canseco arrived late in the year is in italics)

Year   Team        H      AB      R      HR      RBI    SB      BA
1986   CHN         18     73      9       3        12     1     .247
1987   CHN         61    221    32      14      30      2     .276
1988   CHN        178   580    75      8      53     12    .307
1989   TEX        154    559   76      8       64     4     .276
1990   TEX        191    598   72     14       89     3     .319
1991   TEX        203    631   115    26      88     4     .322
1992   TEX        163    608    84    22      85     2     .268
1993   TEX        176    597   124   37      105   22    .295
1994   BAL        139    436    82    23       76     7      .319
1995   BAL        172    554    89    39      104   3      .311
1996   BAL        181    626   11     39      142   8      .289
1997   BAL        156    614   95     38      110   5      .254
1998   BAL        183    619   98     43      121   11     .296
1999   TEX        183    565   96    47       148   2       .324
2000   TEX        163    565   102   39      120   2       .289
2001   TEX        164    600   98    47       123   1       .273
2002   TEX        149    546   99    43       105   2       .273
2003   TEX        146    561   92     38      112   2       .260
2004   BAL        142    550   68      23       88     2       .258

Ironically, Palmeiro's power production really took off the year after Canseco arrived. Hell, whatever he took must've been some good stuff because he went from 2 SB's in '92 to 22 in '93.

It's just odd for a guy to go from 8, 8, 14, 26, and 22 HR's the year before Canseco arrived to hitting between 35-50 HR's the following 10 years. Something definitely made a huge difference when Canseco arrived and I'm sure it wasn't Canseco's exercise regiment.

And for the record, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Giambi are all frauds. If you don't think McGwire did anything illegal after seeing him testify in front of conference, you need to take the blinders off that you wear when it's about players you like. He went from being a bean-pole his rookie year to absolutely being a monster late in his career. A buddy of mine got his autograph before a game at St. Louis and he said "his forearms were almost as big as my thighs, and I'm no slouch."

The sad thing is, for everyone of these clowns who are doing steriods, and I'm not just talking about the big hitters but guys like Bret Boone, Ivan Rodriguez, Benito Santiago, Julio Franco, Kevin Mench, whoever, they're taking a job away from a player who is possibly a bit better when all things are even but not as good when they're up against a roided up freak. It's the "beat 'em or lose your job" approach and this has probably led to more players using steriods. They're in the position where if they don't use 'em, they won't be employed and making a huge major league salary each year.

Same with Texas high school football. That one team had like 7 guys fess up to using roids when they were confronted, and part of the reason was because the schools they were playing against had players who 'had a reputation' of using steriods. In Texas, high school football is everything. It's either face the town after getting your ass handed to you by a team full of roid users or get your butt embarassed out there. It's a lose-lose situation.





 

[msudawgs64]

interesting numbers you put up there Porkahontas..check out these as well.

Home Runs
Season: 29 (Rafael Palmeiro, 1984)
Career: 67 (Rafael Palmeiro,1983-85)

Slugging Percentage
Season: .886 (Rafael Palmeiro, 1984-209 TB/ 236 A B)

College numbers..point is, Raffy has always been able to hit a baseball.  His eye-hand coordination along with probably the sweetest swing in baseball has improved his numbers over time, not steroids.  Yes, he should have just said, hey I do not use steroids, never have, never will and been done with it.  BTW, Texas is a home run hitters paradise with the right field porch and Baltimore's ain't that hard to hit out of either and being a left hand hitter, he is prone to go that way 9 out of 10 times.  Canseco might have been more believable if he was not such a tool to begin with then pretty much changed his tune when put in front of a Senate hearing.  You also notice a downward trend on his numbers, injury plus the fact this will be his 19th season in MLB (i.e., he is old like me) might have a lot to do with it as well.  We can compare numbers all we want but is it just possible that Raffy is a good hitter, a natural hitter, one who used exercise and hard work to get where he is, sorta like Nolan Ryan?  If he says he does not take steroids, should we dismiss him and believe what someone put in a book to sell books.  I would think that if Canseco had not put names he could think of off the top of his head, the book would not sell.  He (or someone who helped him write that book) had to do the same research you did and said, "hey why not put Raffy in there, I mean look at his numbers and how they climb each year, that would be believable, right".  I would also think that if Raffy was taking steroids his body would have pretty much broke down by now, other than the normal breakdowns associated with age.  Also he is only slightly bigger now than he was in college, but then again so am I and I don't use them either. LOL

[rricha]

steroids have been in sports for along time remember how muscled the offensive linemen in the nfl used to be.

[Fletch]

If Conseco didn't have credibility, they wouldn't be having congressional hearings on the matter. It is far more well-documented than we know how much of a problem steroid use is.

[Fletch]

This is just my opinion but I think he did not answer the questions for one reason. He was at a congressional hearing and perjury is a felony.

[msudawgs64]

If Conseco didn't have credibility, they wouldn't be having congressional hearings on the matter. It is far more well-documented than we know how much of a problem steroid use is.

they were going to have these hearings if Conseco had written a book or not or even had mentioned it, remember BALCO?  Conseco is looking out for Conseco, his goal right now is to sell those damn books and whatever it takes to sell them, then so be it.  He has very little credibility IMO, but that is just my opinion. 

[Fletch]

He had a chance in front of the world to emphatically state his case and defend himself and he chose not to for whatever reason. No matter if you believe he took steroids or not, that made him look bad. I like Mcguire and used to go to STL to watch him play, but I happen to believe it is very possible he did take steroids.

[weevilhogg]

Palmeiro hit 14 bombs in 220 ABs in 87.

In 88, power was down all around the league, but he still hit a respectable amount of doubles.

89 saw raffy change leagues.  Some players need time to adjust.  His average was much less in 89 as well.

14 homers is not bad, but surely not big time power.

I contend Palmeiro just matured as a player.  He had always displayed power (college, minors, '87 ) it just took him a while to realize it.

[Fletch]

Palmeiro hit 14 bombs in 220 ABs in 87.

In 88, power was down all around the league, but he still hit a respectable amount of doubles.

89 saw raffy change leagues. Some players need time to adjust. His average was much less in 89 as well.

14 homers is not bad, but surely not big time power.

I contend Palmeiro just matured as a player. He had always displayed power (college, minors, '87 ) it just took him a while to realize it.

I agree, anyone that would buy into that drivel that people like Colon Cowturd is spreading is full of more BS that he is. Guys get stronger as they get older.

I guess you are right. Look at Sylvester Stallone from Rocky I to Rocky III.

[abq]

This is the only thing that baffles me. If these guys were doing steroids then they obviously weren't using them effectively. Check out any episode of WWE for examples of what roid users look like. McGuire admitted using Andro. Andro and other prohormones were legal until 2 months ago. As ImHogginIt stated above you can get the results McGuire showed from Andro.

[maniax22bolts20]

Big Mac's body grew about 25 pounds or so but his arms seemed to remain the same size. Same swing he always had and at 6'5- 6'6 and 250 during the streak hr binge its not like he ballooned much. Sosa and Bonds grew out much more noticeably. Bonds head is not over publicized. It is something out of Mars Attacks. I keep waiting for road clubs to play Slim Whitman music when he comes to bat to see if he'll shriek,dance and explode.

[Fletch]

Congress is forcing MLB to toughen its stance on STEROIDS, not andro. There IS a steroid problem, period.

[Biggus Piggus]

Either McGwire used steroids, or he was badly coached by his attorneys.

I was expecting to hear McGwire say he got where he got by using other supplements.  All of them except the at times freakishly huge Canseco could have done what they did without using steroids.  Or they could have used designer roids to improve their recovery time just like creatine does only better.

Don't know why you are whacking Sosa.  He didn't look like a worm up there like McGwire did.

[razorbackdan]

About half you guys defending Big McRoid wouldn't give two shits about him if he didn't do some mercenary work for your beloved Cardinals. He gave you something to cheer about when the Cards sucked in the late 90's. He's just as guilty as the rest of them.

[msudawgs64]

Palmeiro hit 14 bombs in 220 ABs in 87.

In 88, power was down all around the league, but he still hit a respectable amount of doubles.

89 saw raffy change leagues. Some players need time to adjust. His average was much less in 89 as well.

14 homers is not bad, but surely not big time power.

I contend Palmeiro just matured as a player. He had always displayed power (college, minors, '87 ) it just took him a while to realize it.

I agree, anyone that would buy into that drivel that people like Colon Cowturd is spreading is full of more BS that he is. Guys get stronger as they get older.

LOL...I would not say that Raffy got stronger as he got older but he did play in some home run friendly parks as he got older.

[Porkahontas]

LINK

In a Feb. 13 response to Canseco's book, McGwire released a statement saying: "Once and for all, I did not use steroids or any illegal substance. I feel sorry to see someone turn to such drastic measures to accomplish a personal agenda at the expense of so many. The relationship that these allegations portray couldn't be further from the truth. ... Most concerning to me is the negative effect that sensationalizing steroids will have on impressionable youngsters who dream of one day becoming professional athletes."

Once and for all...means for all time, ever. He kept his word.

McGwire is a man of his word. He kept it at the Congressional Hearing...If Congress wants to criminalize steroid use, so be it. Get on with it. Meanwhile McGwire did nothing but keep his word from above and he did. Sosa, on the other hand sat there and lied through his friggin teeth while hiding behind an interpreter. The entire friggin NFL is on steroids. The entire darned National Thug Association is on steroids AND marijuana use is LEGAL and encouraged by the league.

GD Conseco is a friggin joke and should just be taken out back and shot. And Frank Thomas did not have a single question thrown is way. Why was he too darned good to get on a plane and attend in person?

So you honestly think Thomas, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds, all those guys are probably guilty, but you think McGwire is innocent?

Either you're 1)Racist, 2)A blind Cardinal homer, 3)irrational, or 4)didn't see the same testimony that the rest of the country saw.

McGwire looked like a fox that had been cornered in the chicken coop with a dead chicken in his mouth. If he was innocent, all he had to say was "I never did steroids and that's all there is to it." That's all he had to say.

The reason he didn't say this is because if/when it is proven later that he did use them, he can honestly say then that he didn't "lie" to Congress and commit perjury because he gave indirect answers.

Again, if he didn't use them, why not come out and say he didn't use them? Instead, he beat around the bush like he had something to hide because, quite frankly, he was hiding something.

His name is littered throughout the FBI investigations into steroids that resulted in 77 arrests. This was brought out about a week before the testimony.

Another thing, why in the hell do you think the NBA is on steroids? What good does steroids do in the NBA?

And the NFL? The NFL has very strict testing and policies regarding steroids. A few might slip through the cracks but saying the "entire NFL and entire NBA" is on steroids but McGwire isn't really shoots holes through your entire argument.

[weevilhogg]

Frank Thomas had an ankle injury that prevented him from flying.


If Mac's 2/13 comment was how he truly felt, he should have relayed that same statement in front of congress.

Sosa may be lying, but at least he's consistent with his lie.  He's always said he's clean and (through the interpreter) said the same before congress.

[Boarcephus]

Another thing, why in the hell do you think the NBA is on steroids? What good does steroids do in the NBA?

Take a look at Jordon when he first came into the league and then check him out in his later years.  Same with Magic.

[razorbackdan]

LINK

In a Feb. 13 response to Canseco's book, McGwire released a statement saying: "Once and for all, I did not use steroids or any illegal substance. I feel sorry to see someone turn to such drastic measures to accomplish a personal agenda at the expense of so many. The relationship that these allegations portray couldn't be further from the truth. ... Most concerning to me is the negative effect that sensationalizing steroids will have on impressionable youngsters who dream of one day becoming professional athletes."

Once and for all...means for all time, ever. He kept his word.

McGwire is a man of his word. He kept it at the Congressional Hearing...If Congress wants to criminalize steroid use, so be it. Get on with it. Meanwhile McGwire did nothing but keep his word from above and he did. Sosa, on the other hand sat there and lied through his friggin teeth while hiding behind an interpreter. The entire friggin NFL is on steroids. The entire darned National Thug Association is on steroids AND marijuana use is LEGAL and encouraged by the league.

GD Conseco is a friggin joke and should just be taken out back and shot. And Frank Thomas did not have a single question thrown is way. Why was he too darned good to get on a plane and attend in person?

It is easier to deny the accusations in a press statement on feb. 13 than it is to deny steroid use under oath to Congress.

[Pragmatic PiG]

LINK

In a Feb. 13 response to Canseco's book, McGwire released a statement saying: "Once and for all, I did not use steroids or any illegal substance. I feel sorry to see someone turn to such drastic measures to accomplish a personal agenda at the expense of so many. The relationship that these allegations portray couldn't be further from the truth. ... Most concerning to me is the negative effect that sensationalizing steroids will have on impressionable youngsters who dream of one day becoming professional athletes."

Once and for all...means for all time, ever. He kept his word.

McGwire is a man of his word. He kept it at the Congressional Hearing...If Congress wants to criminalize steroid use, so be it. Get on with it. Meanwhile McGwire did nothing but keep his word from above and he did. Sosa, on the other hand sat there and lied through his friggin teeth while hiding behind an interpreter. The entire friggin NFL is on steroids. The entire darned National Thug Association is on steroids AND marijuana use is LEGAL and encouraged by the league.

GD Conseco is a friggin joke and should just be taken out back and shot. And Frank Thomas did not have a single question thrown is way. Why was he too darned good to get on a plane and attend in person?

It is easier to deny the accusations in a press statement on feb. 13 than it is to deny steroid use under oath to Congress.

yeah, why did he not say what he said in his press release under oath in front of congress?

sadly, we all know why.......

[rricha]

If you can remember before the NFL put in place their steroid policy most of the offensive linemen were strong and muscular with little body fat .  These 360 pounders now were big in high school
Shawn Andrews weighed over 300 pounds as a high school senior.  If most of theses linemen were on steroids they would bigger than what they are. 

[Porkahontas]

So you honestly think Thomas, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds, all those guys are probably guilty, but you think McGwire is innocent?

No, I think McGwire has ADMITTED time after time after time after time after time he has take LEGAL, buy it at General Nutrition/Wal-mart/Walgreens over the counter Creatine and Andro. Which, in the case of Andro at least, you supposively can no longer do, but COULD DO LEGALLY when McGwire was doing it.

Either you're 1)Racist, 2)A blind Cardinal homer, 3)irrational, or 4)didn't see the same testimony that the rest of the country saw.

Well wise guy,  I saw the exact same testimony that you saw and every reporter in this country saw. And got no strory from....none, not a bit. Except they saw him bawl (for another reason) and his NO COMMENTl...exactly like he said he would do. He was the ONLY retired player there. NOT ACTIVE...retired, except for that sorry piece living sh.it Conseco, who isn't actually retired...just out of work. So which does that leave me 1.), 2.) or 3.)?

McGwire looked like a fox that had been cornered in the chicken coop with a dead chicken in his mouth. If he was innocent, all he had to say was "I never did steroids and that's all there is to it." That's all he had to say.

You don't seem to understand...he has said it 4,000 friggin times since 1998. And he said it once in for all on FEBRUARY 13, 2005. He was highly pissed off at 1) Congress for pissing away everybody's valuable time with this BS and the piece of sh.it sitting about 4 chairs down from him. I couldn't walked into the same room with that corpse eating maggot Conseco without kicking his sorry friggin ass. McGwire showed great restraint, actually moreso than did Schilling and Palmiero. Of course the  incredible hulk Sosa just hid behind his translator. He didn't use a corked bat either did he?

The reason he didn't say this is because if/when it is proven later that he did use them, he can honestly say then that he didn't "lie" to Congress and commit perjury because he gave indirect answers.

You have the home movies or something? You are ready to convict someone you know nothing, NOTHING about.
Except it could be your Cubness showing thru.

Again, if he didn't use them, why not come out and say he didn't use them? Instead, he beat around the bush like he had something to hide because, quite frankly, he was hiding something.

We just covered that.

His name is littered throughout the FBI investigations into steroids that resulted in 77 arrests. This was brought out about a week before the testimony

.

Well hells bells. Then Congress has ALL THEY NEED. All they have to do is subpoena those records. Why waste time with this dog and pony show? They obviously have the goods on McGwire. Video, tape recordings of the back door deals...why they need to parade them before the world?

Another thing, why in the hell do you think the NBA is on steroids? What good does steroids do in the NBA?

The question should be...why in hell do you think they are not? You ever look at the size of Bill Russell (6'10' 215), Wilt Chamberlain (7'1" 265), Bob Pettit (6'9" 210) and others compared to the 300 pound behemouths playing that game today. Thugs on steroids. And the marijuana is on the house! The league probably furnishes it for them to keep 'em off the street corner...except for their cocaine and heroine.

And the NFL? The NFL has very strict testing and policies regarding steroids. A few might slip through the cracks but saying the "entire NFL and entire NBA" is on steroids but McGwire isn't really shoots holes through your entire argument

.

Oh, those guys are just normally 360 pounds?  Rightttttttttttt!

McGwire is absolutely for sure guilty but the entire NFL and NBA are innocent. Rightttttt.  Are you interested in some prime swampland in the Everglades?

It's a lot easier to deny using steroids through your agent, a press release, or a news conference than it is when you can hit with a perjury charge in front of Congress.

The NBA? We've got guys in the NBA these days who are 7'1", 7'5", 7'3", and outrageous numbers like that. Do you think steroids makes a person grow vertically? There may be a couple players who do it, but good lord, you said "the whole league" did it. Horse crap. You may catch a couple big guys who do it simply to gain an edge but it's obvious that the majority of the players haven't had their biceps grow 6" in diameter over the course of a season or two. We all know these guys are on the weed, so there's no point in dragging that into the argument over and over. It's not like it gives them a competitive advantage, anyhow.

You give me Russell, Chamberlain, and Pettit as examples. Most of the 6'9 and 6'10 guys in the league aren't much larger than that with their weight. A lot of these guys have lifted weights their entire lives, so of course they're gonna be a bit bigger. Then you've gotta realize we've got a lot more guys who are right at 7'0" and 7'1" going into the league. Add 4 or 5 inches to a kid, of course he'll weight more.

Football? Again, a lot of these guys are simply eating more, starting to exercise right at an early age, and are lifting weights their entire lives. Hell, we got guys coming to Arkansas as freshmen who are +300 pounds. The kid that wll be a senior at Pocahontas High next year, Jim Hart, he goes 6'6", and right at 300 pounds. Are you saying he is on steroids? I've known his family his entire life and I know he's just a huge kid naturally. It's in his genetics. He's just a huge kid. By the time he gets to be 24 or 25, he'll probably be close to 325 or 330. And I'm pretty sure that he's not just an exception, that there are other kids out here who are the exact same way.

I hate the fricking Cubs. I hate Sosa. I know he's a lying sack of crap. Hell, he got caught with a corked bat in a critical situation and he still denied he was trying to get an advantage, so it's already proven he's a liar. I'm just not so blind to believe McGwire is a saint because he was a hired gun for the beloved Cards for a couple of years.

[Porkahontas]

Here's a list of fairly prominent NBA guys who are above 6'8" and can be considered quality players in the league, along with their heights and weights...

Abdur-Rahim 6'9", 245
Anthony 6'8", 220
Boozer 6'8", 258
Bradley 7'6", 275
Brand 6'9", 270
Brown, K. 6'11", 245
Battie 6'11", 240
Battier 6'8", 220
Bender 6'11", 218
Booth, C. 6'11", 231
Camby 6'11", 235
Cato 6'11", 275
Chandler, 7'1", 235
Collison, 6'9", 255
Croshere 6'10", 242
Curry 7'0", 275
Dampier 6'11", 265
Divac 7'1", 260
Fortson 6'9", 260
Foyle 6'11", 265
Garnett 7"0", 225
Gasol 7'0", 240
Gooden, 6'10", 242
Harrington O. 6'9", 235
Haslem, 6'8", 238
Horry 6'10", 240
Ilglaskuas 7'3", 260
LeBron 6'8", 235
Jamison 6'9", 230
Kirilenko 6'9", 205
Kukoc 6'11", 235
LaFrentz 6'11", 245
Magloire 6'11", 259
Martin, K 6'9", 234
McGrady 6'8", 210
Milicic 7'0", 245
Mihm 7'0", 265
Miller, B. 7'0", 261
Mutombo 7'2", 265
Nowitzki 7'0", 245
O'Neal, J. 6'11", 242
Shaq 7'1", 325
Okafor 6'11", 252
Radmanovic 6'10", 234
Randolph 6'9", 253
Ratliff 6'10", 235
Stoudemire 6'10", 245
Swift 6'10", 230
Walker, A. 6'9", 245
Wallace, R. 6'11", 230
Wallace, B. 6'9", 240
Webber 6'10", 245
Corliss 6'7", 245
Wright, L. 6'11", 240
Yao Ming 7'6", 310.

In other words, there's a grand total of TWO +300 pound "behemoths" that you talk of that I found listed, unless you're talking about a guy who sits on the end of the bench somewhere, because I'm not seeing him here.

The rest of these guys you are labeling appear to be around 240 or 250, with a few exception here and there to both sides of that weight. Elton Brand goes around 270. Divac goes like 265 but he's 7'1", Gasol goes 240 and Garnett goes 225.

Like I said in my previous post, the football players are bigger today simply because they get on weights before they're old enough to drive and they stay on them for about 8 or 9 years before they see the pros.

Painting the NFL and the NBA as "full of steroids" is a pretty broad statement. Maybe you were just stereotyping the NBA guys because they're all on pot so they're probably doing more illegal things like steroids. I don't know.

[rricha]

remember the words of Bill Romanowski we have do something to keep up

[muslimsdonteatme]

There are steroids in every piece of meat you eat.

[WilsonHog]

If McGwire used steroids, so what?  If he didn't, so what?

All I know is that I enjoyed watching him play. 

This world is a much easier place to live in once one irrefutable truth sinks in: most everyone lies, most everyone cheats.  It's all just a matter of degree. Those who don't are the exception.

Don't take it too seriously; just sit back and enjoy the ride, either for what you do or what you can laugh at others for doing.

[rricha]

and that is the truth

[Biggus Piggus]

Wilson, you got something dead on.  Baseball is a game with a grand tradition of cheating.  Players find every way they can to get an edge.  Little things make a huge difference in baseball.  The game is limited strictly by the laws of physics, and any way to change what's normally physically possible gives a player a meaningful edge.  Gaylord Perry was so celebrated a cheater, he made the hall of fame.

[razorbackdan]

If McGwire used steroids, so what? If he didn't, so what?

All I know is that I enjoyed watching him play.

This world is a much easier place to live in once one irrefutable truth sinks in: most everyone lies, most everyone cheats. It's all just a matter of degree. Those who don't are the exception.

Don't take it too seriously; just sit back and enjoy the ride, either for what you do or what you can laugh at others for doing.

This is probably the most relevant post of this whole thread.