NCAA Tournament or Bowl Game?

[Youngsta71701]

Simple question. Not trying to knock or protect either coach just genuinely curious what most hogvillians think, how most people look at it, or what most peoples perception is. Personally I don't think the both of them should ever be compared but since someone brought it up let's ride with it.

[go hogues]

Bowl game. Almost half the teams now get bowl invites. MSU went to one with a losing record.

[Hog-Corleone]

Generally Bowl games should be easier, but in this conference, i would say the NCAA Tourney.  It is a much easier path...

[Deep Shoat]

Simple question. Not trying to knock or protect either coach just genuinely curious what most hogvillians think, how most people look at it, or what most peoples perception is. Personally I don't think the both of them should ever be compared but since someone brought it up let's ride with it.

They aren't being compared, that's the point.  They are not close to the same thing.  You can only compare the NCAAT to the CFPlayoff.  347 teams play the CBB season for a berth in the 68 team tournament that determines the NC. 128 CFB teams play for a berth in the 4 team playoff that determines the NC.

[Pigsknuckles]

The fact that the question is even asked is a red flag by itself. With the financial, and fan support that both programs have enjoyed, it is more than reasonable to expect that we go to a bowl game, and to the NCAA every year. The only question should really be the quality of the bowl game or how deep we go in the NCAA tournament.

[Kevin]

both

[Youngsta71701]

The fact that the question is even asked is a red flag by itself. With the financial, and fan support that both programs have enjoyed, it is more than reasonable to expect that we go to a bowl game, and to the NCAA every year. The only question should really be the quality of the bowl game or how deep we go in the NCAA tournament.

Good point.

[Youngsta71701]

They aren't being compared, that's the point.  They are not close to the same thing.  You can only compare the NCAAT to the CFPlayoff.  347 teams play the CBB season for a berth in the 68 team tournament that determines the NC. 128 CFB teams play for a berth in the 4 team playoff that determines the NC.

Some on here "hogville" were trying to make the comparison which I said was ludicrous from the get go.

[Deep Shoat]

Some on here "hogville" were trying to make the comparison which I said was ludicrous from the get go.

The people trying to make the comparison are the same fools trying to prop up the basketball coach.

[hawginbigd1]

All things being equal, bowl game should be easier because like 60% of teams play in one, vs. somewhere around 25% of BB teams make the dance, but if you are in a weak conference with an auto-bid it is fairly easy to make it to the dance.

[hawkhawg]

We should make the tournament and a bowl game 9 out of 10 years.

[Hogwild]

41 bowl games last year, 80 teams out of 127 teams. (63%)

68 out of 347 basketball teams make the tourney (19%)

[RazorPiggie]

Should include NIT into NCAA Tourney. Because playing in the Duck Commander Bowl is like making the NIT.

[bennyl08]

Should include NIT into NCAA Tourney. Because playing in the Duck Commander Bowl is like making the NIT.

Good point. Adding the 32 NIT teams, that makes it 100 out of 347 or 28.8% of teams compared to the 63% of college teams that make it.

[hogsanity]

Good point. Adding the 32 NIT teams, that makes it 100 out of 347 or 28.8% of teams compared to the 63% of college teams that make it.

But, and as was pointed out to the OP by Biggus and others with more exhaustive numerical analysis in another thread than I will provide here, well over half of the d1 basketball teams come from leagues that get 1 bid. Most of them eliminate themselves by renting themselves out to lose 8 or 9 games in the ooc schedule. So, while there are 347 d1 basketball teams, only about half that number are actually vying for spots in the ncaat & NIT.

[lakecityhog]

Are some of you trying to say that only 4 football teams should play in the "post season"? Kinda sounds that way. Of course, I am one of the many fools on this board because I often disagree with a certain poster. And according to his logic anyone that has a dissenting point of view is either a fool or a troll.

Just another good example of the message board arrogance that permeates this board!

[phadedhawg]

From our recent experience it seems as if NCAA tourney is much harder to make than a bowl game.  Any Razorback team with a pulse can get to a lower tiered bowl game.  Razorback basketball teams that seem to have some fight in 'em often don't sniff the NIT. 

[SpaCityHawg]

 frito pie

[NuttinItUp]

Almost half the teams now get bowl invites.

Actually, it is more than half.

128 teams in Division I-FBS. 80 teams went to bowls in 2016-17.

80 / 128 = 62.5%

Compared to the amount of Division I basketball schools (347) that have a chance to make the NCAA tournament (68), the percentage (68 / 347 = 19.6%) isn't really even close.

[Sivad]

We have been regularly making Bowl games.
Not so the NCAAtourney.
And being in the SEC West, it is infinitely more difficult to make a Bowl and it is a relatively easy path to the BB tourney.

[PorkSoda]

We have been regularly making Bowl games.
Not so the NCAAtourney.
And being in the SEC West, it is infinitely more difficult to make a Bowl and it is a relatively easy path to the BB tourney.

LOL I think you are confused.

even if we play in a tough conference, we only have to win 2 conference games and 4 OOC games to make a bowl

50% win percentage

vs

to get into the NCAA you have to win like 24 games out of 31 games.  that is like a 77% win percentage.

the fact that we make a bowl almost every year and rarely make the ncaa, should make it pretty obvious which is harder.

[Atlhogfan1]

The OP is a troll heading to the annoyance level of the legendary Skip. 

Arkansas basketball competes with 100 or so other teams(major conference members and a few multi bid leagues) for 36 at large NCAAT spots.  Of course, there is a chance to win the SECT as well.  We do not compete with 2/3 of college basketball for those spots as they have 0 chance of getting one of those at large spots. 

Just making a bowl is not the standard by which Arkansas football is judged.  It can be okay for a season occasionally due to circumstances ie very early in a rebuild or an injury plagued disaster. 

[Sivad]

LOL I think you are confused.

even if we play in a tough conference, we only have to win 2 conference games and 4 OOC games to make a bowl

50% win percentage

vs

to get into the NCAA you have to win like 24 games out of 31 games.  that is like a 77% win percentage.

the fact that we make a bowl almost every year and rarely make the ncaa, should make it pretty obvious which is harder.

Almost the entire current basketball schedule is cupcakes which blows your theory.

[Dominicanhog]

The OP is a troll heading to the annoyance level of the legendary Skip. 

man, that 's the pot calling the kettle black...lmao...

[Dominicanhog]

Almost the entire current basketball schedule is cupcakes which blows your theory.

so is the OOC football schedule...

[Youngsta71701]

The people trying to make the comparison are the same fools trying to prop up the basketball coach.

And I assume your one of those same haters that's trying to prop up the football coach?

[Youngsta71701]

The OP is a troll heading to the annoyance level of the legendary Skip. 

Arkansas basketball competes with 100 or so other teams(major conference members and a few multi bid leagues) for 36 at large NCAAT spots.  Of course, there is a chance to win the SECT as well.  We do not compete with 2/3 of college basketball for those spots as they have 0 chance of getting one of those at large spots. 

Just making a bowl is not the standard by which Arkansas football is judged.  It can be okay for a season occasionally due to circumstances ie very early in a rebuild or an injury plagued disaster.

Look at the poll, take two pills and call me in the morning . Like I said I wasn't the one that made this comparison but it's funny how some people act when they find out they're wrong or that quite a few people don't agree with their opinion. They go to crying like little babies...Wa! wa! wa!

[PorkSoda]

so is the OOC football schedule...

which represents 67% of the win total needed to make a bowl. 

I counted 9 cupcakes in the basketball schedule which equates to 37.5% of the 24 wins needed to make the tourney.

all the numbers point to basketball getting to the NCAA being harder than Football getting to a bowl, including history.

since 2000, we have been to the tourney 6 times while we have been to 12 bowl games.

[PorkSoda]

If you wanted a real comparison you would compare the difficulty of getting to the final 4 in basketball and the final 4 of football.

in that case I put our chances equally at 0%

[Youngsta71701]

If you wanted a real comparison you would compare the difficulty of getting to the final 4 in basketball and the final 4 of football.

in that case I put our chances equally at 0%

That would be a much better comparison IMO...

[ErieHog]

The OP is a troll heading to the annoyance level of the legendary Skip. 

Arkansas basketball competes with 100 or so other teams(major conference members and a few multi bid leagues) for 36 at large NCAAT spots.  Of course, there is a chance to win the SECT as well.  We do not compete with 2/3 of college basketball for those spots as they have 0 chance of getting one of those at large spots. 

Just making a bowl is not the standard by which Arkansas football is judged.  It can be okay for a season occasionally due to circumstances ie very early in a rebuild or an injury plagued disaster. 

We do compete with them.   You don't like it, and refuse to admit it, but we do compete with 350 teams for at large bids.   Are they *usually* good enough?  No.   Most years, most of those teams have very little chance.  Not every year, though, and not every team is terrible.

If you tried to extend your  'logic' to the minor football conferences, the bottom half of those leagues every year aren't going to contend for actual bowl bids, either.

[EastexHawg]

They aren't being compared, that's the point.  They are not close to the same thing.  You can only compare the NCAAT to the CFPlayoff.

Maybe if this was 1939 and only eight teams made the NCAA tournament that would be half true.  Otherwise, to say making the field of 68 for the basketball tournament is equivalent to being named one of the four college football playoff teams is ludicrous.

There are only 128 Division 1 (FBS) college football programs.  82 of them made it to bowl games last year.  Even if you want to go with only the "better" bowls...let's say the top 20 or 25 out of 41...being selected to play in the Liberty, Texas, or Belk Bowl is at the very worst a one in three proposition.

Win two conference football games and beat four lesser opponents in OOC games to get to 6-6 and you're in a bowl.  Or, as we saw this past year, finish below .500 at 5-7 and you may be in.  No SEC basketball team that wins 25% of its conference games is going to make the NCAA tournament.

Does that mean Mike Anderson has an excuse for missing the NCAA tournament year after year?  No, it means that football shouldn't have the "we made a bowl game!" excuse, either.

[Atlhogfan1]

We do compete with them.   You don't like it, and refuse to admit it, but we do compete with 350 teams for at large bids.   Are they *usually* good enough?  No.   Most years, most of those teams have very little chance.  Not every year, though, and not every team is terrible.

If you tried to extend your  'logic' to the minor football conferences, the bottom half of those leagues every year aren't going to contend for actual bowl bids, either.

We don't compete with them.  Not the bottom 250 or so in college basketball for an NCAAT at large spot.  One exception may come up from that group occassionally(add 1 team to that "100 or so" number I gave earlier).  Didn't say every team is terrible.  Dumb statement on your part. 


When it comes to bowls, we don't compete with anyone but the SEC for bowl position.  Our world is the 14 teams in what is often the deepest conference in college football.  Now we usually get the benefit of 3-4 non conference wins to get close to the 6 wins.  But our competition for bowl spots and the quality of the bowl is our conference.  Unlike college basketball where our competition is the 6 major conferences + a few teams from a few other conferences for an NCAAT spot.  (not that I am making the claim it is easier to make the NCAAT or a bowl- getting to 6 wins isn't usually a tall task). 

[Atlhogfan1]

.

[ErieHog]

We don't compete with them.  Not the bottom 250 or so in college basketball for an NCAAT at large spot.  One exception may come up from that group occassionally(add 1 team to that "100 or so" number I gave earlier).  Didn't say every team is terrible.  Dumb statement on your part. 


When it comes to bowls, we don't compete with anyone but the SEC for bowl position.  Our world is the 14 teams in what is often the deepest conference in college football.  Now we usually get the benefit of 3-4 non conference wins.  But our competition for bowl spots and the quality of the bowl is our conference.  Unlike college basketball where our competition is the 6 major conferences + a few teams from a few other conferences.  (not that I am making the claim it is easier to make the NCAAT or a bowl- getting to 6 wins isn't usually a tall task). 

No, blind statements  on your part.   You work very hard to deny that the game isn't just P5 teams.

We compete with far more than just the SEC for bowl bids.    Its very hard not to get a bowl bid, now.     The proliferation of bowls isn't just a numerical slot thing-- the pull of bowls is eyeballs on TVs, and that leads to an even stronger predisposition to pick major conference bad teams to fill slots--  when they have to reach for 5-7 teams to fill the last few slots, the P5 preference is between 2 and 3 to 1, depending on season.

Tournament bids are far more diffused than bowl bids, as well;   you can break it down by season and see that, but here's a snapshot from last year-- which, as an aside,  was the worst year for major conferences in football for a while.

ACC: 7  Big Ten: 7  Big 12: 7  Pac-12: 7   Big East: 5  American: 4  SEC: 3  A10: 3   - 1 Bid leagues  23

The big 5 conferences provided 31 of 68 teams that made the NCAA tournament  (45.6%) --  P5 bowl teams represented 45 of 82 bowl teams (54.8%)

[Atlhogfan1]

No, blind statements  on your part.   You work very hard to deny that the game isn't just P5 teams.

We compete with far more than just the SEC for bowl bids.    Its very hard not to get a bowl bid, now.     The proliferation of bowls isn't just a numerical slot thing-- the pull of bowls is eyeballs on TVs, and that leads to an even stronger predisposition to pick major conference bad teams to fill slots--  when they have to reach for 5-7 teams to fill the last few slots, the P5 preference is between 2 and 3 to 1, depending on season.

Tournament bids are far more diffused than bowl bids, as well;   you can break it down by season and see that, but here's a snapshot from last year-- which, as an aside,  was the worst year for major conferences in football for a while.

ACC: 7  Big Ten: 7  Big 12: 7  Pac-12: 7   Big East: 5  American: 4  SEC: 3  A10: 3   - 1 Bid leagues  23

The big 5 conferences provided 31 of 68 teams that made the NCAA tournament  (45.6%) --  P5 bowl teams represented 45 of 82 bowl teams (54.8%)

You are making a pointless argument to me on getting bowl eligible being easier.  I agree. 

We only compete with the SEC for bowl bids and bowl position UNLESS there is an exception.  A great season where we get into the playoff or group bowls or if we are 6-6 and a conference has failed to fill their obligation and all SEC tie ins are filled.

LOL - you are seriously bringing in the conference tourney winners into your basketball numbers?  Sure, we compete with the Horizon and Colonial and Big Sky...for an at large spot.  Not that we can compete with them for their auto tourney spot since we aren't even in their conference.

Only 5 major basketball conferences?  ACC, B1G, Big 12, SEC, Pac 12  - you leaving out the Big East? 

So 26 of the 36 at large spots went to those 5 conferences.  And we know the Big East, A10, AAC and sometimes another conference or two will send multiple teams.  So we are back at my count of the 5 major conferences + plus Big East(which is a major conference still) + A10 + AAC + generously allowing for another multi bid conference or two. 

35 of the 36 at large spots(by your numbers) went to those 8 conferences you listed.  Thank you for proving my point.


The "games" are "P5 teams" with few rare exceptions which don't really relate to our situation. 


Btw, we know this was a troll effort by the OP to bring JB trolling over to MMQB.

As it relates to our situation, this conversation should be more about what is satisfactory for our programs.  Just getting bowl eligible isn't in most seasons. 

[Youngsta71701]

Btw, we know this was a troll effort by the OP to bring JB trolling over to MMQB.

BTW, I don't troll. I give my opinion which seems to be a problem for you. But you can give your opinion all you want...Hmmm. I just love the dictatorship way of thinking. I also love how you continually try to throw this topic off on me when I wasn't the one that made the comparison. But anyhow, carry on then. You sound great.

[LA Football fan]

Why are we comparing going to a bowl with just making the NCAA tourney???  Do basketball teams not go to the NIT and CBI tourney also??  Are they not after season tourney games???  A 6-6 team getting to a bowl is pretty equivalent to a basketball team going to CBI.  Your 8-4 and 7-5 teams are probably equivalent to basketball making the NIT.   If you are going to use EVERY available bowl game then you have to use EVERY available post season basketball game too.

[Poker_hog]

In general its slightly easier to make a bowl game.  With our tradition and recruiting base it should be easier to make the NCAA tournament.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Even playing in the SECW it's easier to make a bowl game.  You only have to win three real games.  In Basketball you play a lot of good little teams that can beat you on a given night but that's not it.  It's the number of wins you have to get to coming from a disrespected conference.  22-24 wins at least and 15-16 of those are real games that you have to play near your best to win. 

As some said it shouldn't even be a question just not for the reasons they might think.

[Seebs]

These should never be mutually exclusive and should always be expected at a minimum.

[hogcard1964]

Bowl game is much easier.  I think it's something like 65% of all teams make a bowl.

[Poker_hog]

Bowl game is much easier.  I think it's something like 65% of all teams make a bowl.

True but you have to take in consideration the school in question.  For an Alabama it's much easier to make a bowl.  For a school like Kentucky or even Vanderbilt it's much easier to make the tournament.

I think with our recruiting disadvantages in football coupled with our basketball tradition it might be easier to make the tournament.

[Pig Worshipper]

The Math Bowl is one of the hardest events to get the opportunity to compete but with our #1 in the SEC STUDENT-athletes, we finally have a chance! GHG!

[12247]

Qualifying for a Bowl and entering the NCAA Tourney or NIT should be nearly guaranteed for our Hog teams annually.  The money and effort Arkansas puts into these two programs should not be wasted on anything short of this.  Arkansas should be in a Big 6 Bowl and/or the Sweet 16 every 5 to 8 years.  That would mean a top 16 football or basketball team every 5 to 8 years.  That should be doable.

[Deep Shoat]

And I assume your one of those same haters that's trying to prop up the football coach?

He doesn't need "propping up".  He will win enough to stay over the next two years, or he won't.

[PorkSoda]

Qualifying for a Bowl and entering the NCAA Tourney or NIT should be nearly guaranteed for our Hog teams annually.  The money and effort Arkansas puts into these two programs should not be wasted on anything short of this.  Arkansas should be in a Big 6 Bowl and/or the Sweet 16 every 5 to 8 years.  That would mean a top 16 football or basketball team every 5 to 8 years.  That should be doable.

well, both are going into the 5-8 year period after inheriting dumpster fires.  so I guess we will see.

[hogsanity]

Both should be easy to do, for different reasons though. Football, well 82 teams make bowls. So you almost have to try not to make one.

Basketball, all you have to do in the sec is play a decent ooc schedule and win 11 or 12 SEC games in a PUTRID league. You can't lose at home to Msu or Vandy types, and you can't lose ANYWHERE to Mizzu.

[Dominicanhog]

all you have to do in the sec is play a decent ooc schedule and win 11 or 12 SEC games

Yeah, that's all you have to do.. how many teams have done that over the last 6 years?   

[hogsanity]

Yeah, that's all you have to do.. how many teams have done that over the last 6 years?   

21 teams have done that since going to 18 games for the 2012-13 season, not counting this season, so an average of 5 teams per season reach at least 11 sec wins.