And then what?????

[hogsanity]

Do you disagree?

No, I agree 100%. That is pretty much what Long said a couple days ago and has been accused of saying winning was not important.

[jkstock04]

I swear to god I will find a way to put you on ignore.

HS isn't bad. No matter how much he disagrees you will never see him calling people idiots, morons, cowards, etc. He doesn't make it personal like a lot of the Bielema apologists on here do. Of course they have disappeared now though.

[GuvHog]

I don't disagree with that, but to what end, just to keep winning 6 or 7 games and go through 2 poor ( possibly ) years of not even making a bowl to just get back to 7 or 8 wins and then doing it all over again in 2022 or 23?

With the talent on this team, a good coach should win at least 6 to 7 games his first year. the talent is their to win 9 games this year but the coaching is questionable.

[Wildhog]

HS isn't bad. No matter how much he disagrees you will never see him calling people idiots, morons, cowards, etc. He doesn't make it personal like a lot of the Bielema apologists on here do. Of course they have disappeared now though.

I just can't keep arguing that winning matters, even if you don't win a title.  It's completely ridiculous to assert otherwise, and I just can't keep banging my head against a wall.  I just can't respond to that nonsense anymore.

[WilsonHog]

I am 47 years old, in those 47 years the Hogs have 340 wins, that is 7.23 per season. We have had 9 coaches in that span that have coached at least 1 full season, that is one coach every 5 years.

And in those 47 years, we've finished in the Top 25 multiple times. We've won conference championships. We've had multiple 10-win seasons and a couple of 11-win seasons. In fact, Frank Broyles, Lou Holtz, Ken Hatfield, and Bobby Petrino all have such accomplishments on their Arkansas resume. Even Danny Ford won the SEC West once.

Bret Bielema has done none of those things, in a longer time frame than it took every one of those coaches.

[hogsanity]

With the talent on this team, a good coach should win at least 6 to 7 games his first year. the talent is their to win 9 games this year but the coaching is questionable.

Based on what Guv? As is usual, when we have a SR Qb we have youth all around him. While I was encouraged by the defense, we still saw tackling problems, and are still woefully thin at LB.

This Wr group had trouble getting off the line against man coverage, way too easily jammed at the line, and the OL still made AA fear for his life most of the day.

[hogsanity]

And in those 47 years, we've finished in the Top 25 multiple times. We've won conference championships. We've had multiple 10-win seasons and a couple of 11-win seasons. In fact, Frank Broyles, Lou Holtz, Ken Hatfield, and Bobby Petrino all have such accomplishments on their Arkansas resume. Even Danny Ford won the SEC West once.

Bret Bielema has done none of those things, in a longer time frame than it took every one of those coaches.

All true, and I have never said otherwise. I do not care if they keep BB or not. I just do not expect the next guy or the guy after that or the guy after that to be the guy that takes us from a 7-8 win average to 9-10 average. He may very well do what has been done before, have a 10 win season, but it won't be the new standard.

[Redhogs]

I just want to know who Redhogs wants as the next Head Hog.

Does it matter?? I have no say in it.....getting the clueless windbreaker off our sidelines as soon as possible  is all I really care about at this point.

[BallHog1]

and that isn't may narrative so i don't give two pucks.  If Beliema got fired tomorrow i wouldn't personnally care, but that doesn't change the point of this thread or the fact the OP is right.  We fire him today we start over from scratch again, same ole song 3 decades + of average with a sprinkle of not so bad, but still not elite mixed in there.

Some of you want championships but will not suffer through what ever it takes to get one.  You think any coach X can come in and make it happen.  There are only maybe 3 or 4 coaches in the game today who could and none of them are walking through that door.

Best post of the day

[Dominicanhog]

HS isn't bad. No matter how much he disagrees you will never see him calling people idiots, morons, cowards, etc. He doesn't make it personal like a lot of the Bielema apologists on here do. Of course they have disappeared now though.

He has bee the Bielema apologists/protector..

[hogsanity]

Does it matter?? I have no say in it.....getting the clueless windbreaker off our sidelines as soon as possible  is all I really care about at this point.

So they should call HDN back, that would be ok with you? Or maybe JLS? Jack Crowe?

[GuvHog]

Based on what Guv? As is usual, when we have a SR Qb we have youth all around him. While I was encouraged by the defense, we still saw tackling problems, and are still woefully thin at LB.

This Wr group had trouble getting off the line against man coverage, way too easily jammed at the line, and the OL still made AA fear for his life most of the day.

I was referring to the talent a new coach would inherit next year. However, the talent is there to win 9 regular season games this year but the coaching is questionable.

[311Hog]

I was referring to the talent a new coach would inherit next year. However, the talent is there to win 9 regular season games this year but the coaching is questionable.

Ok let me try and explain.

How do you know the players on this team are talented enough to win 9 games when they haven't ?

Recruiting rankings? winds from the south? an itchy bunion? what.

[hogsanity]

I was referring to the talent a new coach would inherit next year. However, the talent is there to win 9 regular season games this year but the coaching is questionable.

So wait, a new coach should win 6 or 7 next year with a team pretty much the same as one you deem should win 9 this year? That makes no sense at all. If anything a new coach should be able to do what HDN did when he came in 98, take a 5 win team and win 9.

[Redhogs]

So they should call HDN back, that would be ok with you? Or maybe JLS? Jack Crowe?

Now you are just showing yourself for the true idiot that you are.

[GuvHog]

So wait, a new coach should win 6 or 7 next year with a team pretty much the same as one you deem should win 9 this year? That makes no sense at all. If anything a new coach should be able to do what HDN did when he came in 98, take a 5 win team and win 9.

I said "at least" 6 or 7 wins. I was giving a new coach a little leeway.

[Atlhogfan1]

So wait, a new coach should win 6 or 7 next year with a team pretty much the same as one you deem should win 9 this year? That makes no sense at all. If anything a new coach should be able to do what HDN did when he came in 98, take a 5 win team and win 9.

Would depend on who is hired.  The majority here seems to want a spread offense.  If it is a spread where the qb isn't asked to run much then may would be ok.  6-7 270 lb Cole Kelley isn't going to look like Deshaun Watson, Manziel, Chad Kelly etc if the offense would depend on the qb running.  Personnel fit would matter. 

[Dominicanhog]

So wait, a new coach should win 6 or 7 next year with a team pretty much the same as one you deem should win 9 this year? That makes no sense at all. If anything a new coach should be able to do what HDN did when he came in 98, take a 5 win team and win 9.

The same as this year? ha... AA is a 5th year sr... the most important person on the team leaves along with Ragnow etc.. and you think we should do as well next year... We are rebuilding next year with or without CBB... that's why this year is so important.. We've built for this year...

[GuvHog]

Ok let me try and explain.

How do you know the players on this team are talented enough to win 9 games when they haven't ?

Recruiting rankings? winds from the south? an itchy bunion? what.

They would have won 9 last year if not for defensive coaching problems.

[Wildhog]

They would have won 9 last year if not for defensive coaching problems.

While the defense CERTAINLY bears a lot of responsibility for last season, it was the offense that failed us in the second halves of the last two games.

[Letsroll1200]

Expect it, no. Surprised by it, no.

What has surprised me is the recruiting. While still getting solid classes, which we know is still going to be bottom 3rd of the SEC, he has not gotten the players he did in year one. Hindsight tells me he got them because he was on them for Wisconsin and by the time he came here they did not want to go through recruiting any more so they followed him here.

I'm surprise that his record is 26-27. However, what's more alarming that after 5 years as a coach in this program, he has yet to establish a identity. Does it take five years to establish a culture on the field? Under Houston Nutt we were a elite physical running team and limited in the pass game. That was our identity. Under Bobby Petrino we were exceptional offensive team. This coach has been unable to establish a on the field identity.

[Gonzo]

I swear to god I will find a way to put you on ignore.

WH, go to your profile, it will have an option to edit your buddy and ignore list.


Go Hogs!

[Wildhog]

WH, go to your profile, it will have an option to edit your buddy and ignore list.


Go Hogs!

Thank you.

[311Hog]

They would have won 9 last year if not for defensive coaching problems.

again how do you know that the players are being held back by the coaching, and that with literally anyone else as the coach they would win 9 games?

or is this just something that you feel is a given that team loses its the coaches.

[Dominicanhog]

While the defense CERTAINLY bears a lot of responsibility for last season, it was the offense that failed us in the second halves of the last two games.

they didn't do much against AU, UA, LSU, even A&M... the defense was terrible last year but the offense didn't do much to help...

[jst01]

All true, and I have never said otherwise. I do not care if they keep BB or not. I just do not expect the next guy or the guy after that or the guy after that to be the guy that takes us from a 7-8 win average to 9-10 average. He may very well do what has been done before, have a 10 win season, but it won't be the new standard.

You are way too focused on the word 'averages'.  Forget that. There are so many years and so many games, you have to do a lot of winning/losing to make those averages move.  Stop worrying about the average year based on the last 30+ years of games or whatever large timeframe you keep referring to.   

Look at a snapshot in time of the next 8 years for a new coach. He doesn't care about averages or what we did in the past. It doesn't matter if you "don't expect him" to be able to win more during his time here than we are used to winning. A new coach could come here and win 10 games a year for five straight years and our 30 year avg. annual win total might jump up 0.9 games. 

[daprospecta]

Doesn't have to be a big name HC. Heck I wouldn't mind them offering Brent Venables 3.5 Million a year for 7 years and kick it up above 4 million a year if he is successful. It wouldn't hurt to give him a shot if things don't work out with CBB.

I just want a coach that will get his players to play hard even if they are out-classed.  That's why I like Mark Dantonio, his teams always play hard and play smart football.  They are not the most talented but they are well-coached and play hard-nosed football.

[GuvHog]

Would depend on who is hired.  The majority here seems to want a spread offense.  If it is a spread where the qb isn't asked to run much then may would be ok.  6-7 270 lb Cole Kelley isn't going to look like Deshaun Watson, Manziel, Chad Kelly etc if the offense would depend on the qb running.  Personnel fit would matter. 

Hey, the Power Spread (not the HUNH) was successful in 2010 and 2012 and that was with 2 Pro Style passing QBs so why not go back to that?? Heck, the Hogs have a guy who is almost a Mallett clone that is pretty mobile practically ready to step in as the starting QB next year.

[Dominicanhog]

They would have won 9 last year if not for defensive coaching problems.

so if the score is 30-0 at the half and you lose, is that offense or defense.... offense turns it over a couple of time in a short field, goes 3 and out repeatedly and the defense already thin and lacking talent is going to fold....

[Atlhogfan1]

Hey, the Power Spread (not the HUNH) was successful in 2010 and 2012 and that was with 2 Pro Style passing QBs so why not go back to that?? Heck, the Hogs have a guy who is almost a Mallett clone that is pretty mobile practically ready to step in as the starting QB next year.

We may would. 

[hogsanity]

Hey, the Power Spread (not the HUNH) was successful in 2010 and 2012 and that was with 2 Pro Style passing QBs so why not go back to that?? Heck, the Hogs have a guy who is almost a Mallett clone that is pretty mobile practically ready to step in as the starting QB next year.

Do we have 4 nfl draftees at wr and 2 more at te and one at Rb to go with him?

[bphi11ips]

You are way too focused on the word 'averages'.  Forget that. There are so many years and so many games, you have to do a lot of winning/losing to make those averages move.  Stop worrying about the average year based on the last 30+ years of games or whatever large timeframe you keep referring to.   

Look at a snapshot in time of the next 8 years for a new coach. He doesn't care about averages or what we did in the past. It doesn't matter if you "don't expect him" to be able to win more during his time here than we are used to winning. A new coach could come here and win 10 games a year for five straight years and our 30 year avg. annual win total might jump up 0.9 games. 

Bingo.

It's not the average year that matters. It's the potential for the program. What is the ceiling?  Well, we know that isn't 7-8 wins per year or one good team every generation.  Arkansas has sustained success for decades in the past and it can do it again. Even in the SEC years the program has been respectable. Certainly above average when compared to the FBS as a whole.

I for one am not ready to concede that CBB can't reach that potential. Let the year play out. We have a lot of good players on this team.

[Porkette]

One thing about Bielema's record. The only way he is averaging 7-8 wins (or even close to it) is if you throw out his first year, but I just can't do that. His record is his total record. Maybe he "inherited a mess," but if that's the case so do most new coaches. People always said Petrino inherited a mess too. BB's first year was embarrassingly, HISTORICALLY bad- worst ever in the SEC- and worse than the John L Smith year. Maybe I'm terrible, but I can't forget it that easily.

[Wildhog]

One thing about Bielema's record. The only way he is averaging 7-8 wins (or even close to it) is if you throw out his first year, but I just can't do that. His record is his total record. Maybe he "inherited a mess," but if that's the case so do most new coaches. People always said Petrino inherited a mess too. BB's first year was embarrassingly, HISTORICALLY bad- worst ever in the SEC- and worse than the John L Smith year. Maybe I'm terrible, but I can't forget it that easily.

True.  That historical average that keeps getting brought up includes other rebuilding years for new coaches.  The record is what it is.

[RazorPiggie]

Does it matter?? I have no say in it.....getting the clueless windbreaker off our sidelines as soon as possible  is all I really care about at this point.

Sure it matters. I'd like your input on who you think we can get.

[Atlhogfan1]

One thing about Bielema's record. The only way he is averaging 7-8 wins (or even close to it) is if you throw out his first year, but I just can't do that. His record is his total record. Maybe he "inherited a mess," but if that's the case so do most new coaches. People always said Petrino inherited a mess too. BB's first year was embarrassingly, HISTORICALLY bad- worst ever in the SEC- and worse than the John L Smith year. Maybe I'm terrible, but I can't forget it that easily.

I don't need his first year record or overall record to know the program isn't trending the right direction.  The last couple of seasons and TCU game were enough evidence.  I don't think you are terrible but I don't get holding the first year against him.  It isn't necessary. 

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/sec-coaches-talk-anonymously-about-conference-foes-2013

Arkansas
Opposing coaches size up the Razorbacks: 

"They are going to be terrible. What they are doing now, it's the product of bad recruiting. They have a long way to go. That's nothing against the new coach (Bret Bielema). But they are going to be terrible in Year 1." ...

"They are really going to struggle. What happened was they had eight starters who got injured, and they were fighting an uphill battle all of last year. I think they'll struggle up front, they'll struggle in the secondary, the linebackers should be average." ...

"They are going to be slim in a lot of spots. It's going to take them three years to get a good foundation. It's a product of bad recruiting — which is typical of a Bobby Petrino school. It's the same thing that happened at Louisville that got Steve Kragthorpe fired. Petrino didn't leave him any players. It's the same thing at Arkansas. They have no players on defense. Petrino would load up on offense and leave the cupboard bare. That's why he can't ever get over the hump." ...

"If you want to be competitive in the SEC, you better have big, strong defensive linemen, physical guys, and lockdown corners. If you don't have that, you don't have a chance. And right now they don't have that." ...

"I don't know really how good they are up front offensively, but I'm kind of skeptical based on what I know."

"I think the young running back, Jonathan Williams, is going to be good for them. We liked him out of high school."

[GuvHog]

Do we have 4 nfl draftees at wr and 2 more at te and one at Rb to go with him?

We might have next year once the young receivers get some experience.

[hogsanity]

Bingo.

It's not the average year that matters. It's the potential for the program. What is the ceiling?  Well, we know that isn't 7-8 wins per year or one good team every generation.  Arkansas has sustained success for decades in the past and it can do it again. Even in the SEC years the program has been respectable. Certainly above average when compared to the FBS as a whole.

I for one am not ready to concede that CBB can't reach that potential. Let the year play out. We have a lot of good players on this team.

Even in the 60's, arguably their most dominant decade, they had 2 losing seasons. The AVERAGES point out exactly what you have said, and what I have said. This is a program that will have the occasional 1 or 2 year run of maybe 10 wins, but then fall back down. It is not going to be year after year 9-10-11 wins.

There is nothing that points to things being any different than they have been for over half a century.

[Atlhogfan1]

We might have next year once the young receivers get some experience.

Unless a mass exodus would happen, I don't believe we would see the comments about our 2018 team as we did our 2013 team. 

[Youngsta71701]

BB is gone at the end of the season, and then what, hire another coach and in 5 years when the results are an average of 7-8 wins a year ( which is our average since joining the sec, 25+ seasons ) I guess we will want that guy gone and try someone else?

Oh, and don't forget the new guy will probably be very different in offensive philosophy and will have to try to do that with the ball control type players on campus.

And no, this is not a keep BB thread. It is a why do you expect different results, over time, than any of the other coaches since joining the sec have provided.

Bobby Petrino says hi .

[Boarslab]

Those 7-8 wins are really just 3-5 quality wins over the last 25 years...there's always a couple of cupcakes and maybe one or two down years for another game or two on the schedule.  Quality wins are at a premium and few and far between--I don't think people would be that upset if there were a some quality wins with a bowl win or two thrown in, but this?  This  is something different with BB--don't lose to people you're not supposed too---We shouldn't be losing to TCU right now and that's what causes people to lose faith.  Lots of lost souls last weekend in Hogville--lots across Razorback Nation for that matter.  It was an embarrassment to field that team and be seen on CBS.  That was a let down of epic proportion after the hopes of a competitive team.

[jst01]

It is not going to be year after year 9-10-11 wins.

It sure as hell could for a stretch of like 5-6 years. Of course its not going to continue to the end of time, but based on your attitude, why even try for that.

[FWF79]

Art Briles would be great.. 

[BigE_23]

But none of this answers the then what question. IS it the best course of action FOR ANY PROGRAM to just keep a revolving door at the HC spot WITHOUT changing anything else? At some point if coach after coach gets pretty much the same results, doesn't the program have to look at why that is?

Your question is predicated on the hypothesis that "every coach gets the same results."

This is where your premise is flawed. You can't just lump the whole and say we're nothing more that a 7-win program. There were pockets in which certain coaches proved that Arkansas could be a competitive program on the national stage.

BTW, Broyles, Holtz, Hatfield win averages were in an era in which the regular season was shorter, which you also fail to take into consideration.

Losers always make excuses. Some of us refuse to let that be our default narrative.

[hogsanity]

It sure as hell could for a stretch of like 5-6 years. Of course its not going to continue to the end of time, but based on your attitude, why even try for that.

what in the entire history of the program makes you think they could even sustain a stretch of 5-6 of 9+ wins? Could it happen, sure, so could 5 or 6 straight years of 5 or 6 wins too. The best 5 year run the school has had was Hatfield with 10, 9, 9 10, 10 wins from 85 - 89 in a dying SWC ( literally the league ceased to exist just a few years later ), and many fans rejoiced when he left because he was " boring ".

[hogsanity]

Your question is predicated on the hypothesis that "every coach gets the same results."

This is where your premise is flawed. You can't just lump the whole and say we're nothing more that a 7-win program. There were pockets in which certain coaches proved that Arkansas could be a competitive program on the national stage.

BTW, Broyles, Holtz, Hatfield win averages were in an era in which the regular season was shorter, which you also fail to take into consideration.

Losers always make excuses. Some of us refuse to let that be our default narrative.

I have said they all had those type seasons, but they all also ended up right back at the average. What excuse, I am asking if just trying coach after coach, without anything else changing, is the answer.

[311Hog]

what in the entire history of the program makes you think they could even sustain a stretch of 5-6 of 9+ wins? Could it happen, sure, so could 5 or 6 straight years of 5 or 6 wins too. The best 5 year run the school has had was Hatfield with 10, 9, 9 10, 10 wins from 85 - 89 in a dying SWC ( literally the league ceased to exist just a few years later ), and many fans rejoiced when he left because he was " boring ".

and because at the end of the year everyone would think we were title contenders only to get stomped by Miami or some other program that ran a modern offense in a modern league.

[311Hog]

I have said they all had those type seasons, but they all also ended up right back at the average. What excuse, I am asking if just trying coach after coach, without anything else changing, is the answer.

This guy is the "losers do X i am a winner so i do Y" even though both are the same.  Massive delusion.

[Porkette]

I don't need his first year record or overall record to know the program isn't trending the right direction.  The last couple of seasons and TCU game were enough evidence.  I don't think you are terrible but I don't get holding the first year against him.  It isn't necessary. 

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/sec-coaches-talk-anonymously-about-conference-foes-2013

Arkansas
Opposing coaches size up the Razorbacks: 

"They are going to be terrible. What they are doing now, it's the product of bad recruiting. They have a long way to go. That's nothing against the new coach (Bret Bielema). But they are going to be terrible in Year 1." ...

"They are really going to struggle. What happened was they had eight starters who got injured, and they were fighting an uphill battle all of last year. I think they'll struggle up front, they'll struggle in the secondary, the linebackers should be average." ...

"They are going to be slim in a lot of spots. It's going to take them three years to get a good foundation. It's a product of bad recruiting — which is typical of a Bobby Petrino school. It's the same thing that happened at Louisville that got Steve Kragthorpe fired. Petrino didn't leave him any players. It's the same thing at Arkansas. They have no players on defense. Petrino would load up on offense and leave the cupboard bare. That's why he can't ever get over the hump." ...

"If you want to be competitive in the SEC, you better have big, strong defensive linemen, physical guys, and lockdown corners. If you don't have that, you don't have a chance. And right now they don't have that." ...

"I don't know really how good they are up front offensively, but I'm kind of skeptical based on what I know."

"I think the young running back, Jonathan Williams, is going to be good for them. We liked him out of high school."

Oh I agree overall.  I only made the point because there has been a lot of talk about 7-8 wins and the average performance for an Arkansas coach. And Bielema's results are below average for Arkansas.

[311Hog]

Oh I agree overall.  I only made the point because there has been a lot of talk about 7-8 wins and the average performance for an Arkansas coach. And Bielema's results are below average for Arkansas.

which is why i would not be surprised at all to see him not be the Hogs coach anytime in the future.