If you want to see different results it begins with recruiting .......

[B Ray]

To me it's hard to evaluate how well CBB has done with W-Ls , he was given a team broken from Petrino leaving and having Smiley run the team for a whole season..

CBB not only changed the style of play, which also means he didn't have the right type of players for smashmouth football, to me it normally takes 4 years for a new coach to get the right players, but since the talent was not as good as one would hope, I think 6 years might be what it takes.

I wish Biggus Piggus would do his magic on the the players that was here for CBB when he was hired, nothing on the players, but everyone is wanting 5star and 4 star recruits , just like everyone in the top 10 ,week in and week out ..seems we had so many recruits , juco that had to come in and start from day 1, CBB has played many freshman due to them being better than most seniors ..

We are a long way, from being in the top 10 or known to be .. By changing coaches in the next couple years, will restart the 4 year cycle all over again, unless you get a TOP 5 coach ,which all recruits just come running ...

[hogsanity]

Petrino was able to get better skill position players due to his reputation and flashy offense. 

BWAAAHHHHH.  He got his skill players out of a 2 year class of AR HS talent so far above what the state usually produces it is almost indescribable. A town of 4000 people produced a class with THREE NFL draft picks. Do you realize how incredibly rare that is.

I will ask you, what better skill position players did he sign in the 2011 & 2012 classes, right after going 10-3 and 11-2? I can guarantee the sill positions were not any where near the calibre of Adams, Childs, Wright, Gragg, TW from in state, plus RM & Cobi from just across the border. Throw in Bequette and Franklin just in state on D and Petrino did what every other coach at AR has done - he rode a team full of great in state recruits. 

When the state produces another 2 yr class with 8 r 9 nfl draft picks again the Hogs will challenge for the secw.

[thefisher]

BWAAAHHHHH.  He got his skill players out of a 2 year class of AR HS talent so far above what the state usually produces it is almost indescribable. A town of 4000 people produced a class with THREE NFL draft picks. Do you realize how incredibly rare that is.

I will ask you, what better skill position players did he sign in the 2011 & 2012 classes, right after going 10-3 and 11-2? I can guarantee the sill positions were not any where near the calibre of Adams, Childs, Wright, Gragg, TW from in state, plus RM & Cobi from just across the border. Throw in Bequette and Franklin just in state on D and Petrino did what every other coach at AR has done - he rode a team full of great in state recruits.

When the state produces another 2 yr class with 8 r 9 nfl draft picks again the Hogs will challenge for the secw.

Agreed

CBP was also incredibly fortunate to be here when Michigan fired coach Carr and hired "Rich Rod".  That is the only reason Ryan Mallet came to Arkansas. If Carr had stayed, or the coach replacing him ran a similar style offense, then Mallet would have stayed at Michigan and never transferred to Arkansas.

It almost always boils down to who has the best players. An occasional exception ... but not very often.

[hogsanity]

Agreed

CBP was also incredibly fortunate to be here when Michigan fired coach Carr and hired "Rich Rod".  That is the only reason Ryan Mallet came to Arkansas. If Carr had stayed, or the coach replacing him ran a similar style offense, then Mallet would have stayed at Michigan and never transferred to Arkansas.

It almost always boils down to who has the best players. An occasional exception ... but not very often.

One thing that hinders people when they look at a game or a schedule. They want to compare offenses or defenses. What you really have to do is compare your teams offense against the opponents defense and vice versa. Anyone who watched the game saw how fast LSu's back 7 closed on the football when it was thrown. They saw how their DL repeatedly beat the Hogs blockers.  Are the Hogs receivers as good as LSu's, I would say yes, but LSu's db's are much better than Arkansas.

[Atlhogfan1]

LOL

Whatever.

Both statements were true LOL. 

[Atlhogfan1]

I'm sure Lamar's parents had to plead with Petrino.  It's mystifying how CBP let such an unwanted recruit commit in August.

LOL

Lamar Thomas begged Petrino to offer Jackson because BP was resisting.  Dumbass. 

[NaturalStateReb]

Share with me one team we lost to this year that has had lower ranked recruiting classes then us???   The correct answer is none

Also we beat ole miss and florida that have outranked us in recruiting.

I know all the "he is really a 5 star but since he is in arkansas or committted to arkansas he is been only ranked a 3star". But that is mostly crap. 

The only way to compete with the elites of the SEC is to improve recruiting overall and develop some other less ranked kids into top athletes.  I don't know how to do it or if it can be done but that is what has to happen to get the champiomship results people keep hoping for.

Lastly texas AM joining the sec hurts our chances at recruiting texas talent.  The traditional lifeline to arkansas.   Them joining the conference was not helpful to arkansas at all. 

This is not a criticism of our current players.  They came to UA and I support them. 

I think, instead of looking at recruiting rankings, you probably should be looking at equivalent talent.

Arkansas has talent equivalent to TCU, Ole Miss, and Florida this year.  Arkansas does not have equivalent talent to Alabama, Texas A&M, LSU, and Auburn.  Arkansas got big boyed against teams with better talent, and has fared well against teams that are similar to their talent level.

Arkansas has at least equivalent talent to State, probably better talent.  They definitely are more talented than Missouri.  I think they'll do no worse than 1-1 against those two, but probably 2-0.  That means that Arkansas will probably go no worse than 7-1 against teams where the talent was equivalent or Arkansas had an advantage. 

[jkstock04]

Why we can't have a discussion......Keep pushing posters to sides.........

We can't have rational discussions about recruiting (or anything else for that matter) because every national signing day when we sign another class in the  SEC cellar people are afraid/naive to call it for what it is. Our fan base has head in the sand syndrome when it comes to recruiting (unless it's the day or two after playing Bama)...those are the only times people will admit some of our recruiting shortfalls.

If you want a real laugh go back in the archives to 2010 or 2011 national signing day on here. People don't want to have a serious discussion. It's all out  homer talk or bust.

The recruiting forum hasn't been readable in years if ever. It's pointless. We get commits from guys with little or no SEC offers and the experts in there claim it's a milestone in recruiting and we are headed to new heights & that we have never seen this type of recruiting prowess at Arkansas. Same way with every recruit, every coach, every year.

Then comes the spring game...if anyone questions anything concerning about performance there "you are a blowhard idiot there...it's just a glorified practice, we'll be just fine..I trust (insert present coaches name). But of course if any performances are positive in the spring game that is Harped upon and highly hyped into the summer.

Then summer comes around and we start to work ourselves into a frenzy via the coaches and media spin of how awesome things are. Non football related stuff like the Bielema tv show deflects from actual football which is genius PR work from Jeff Long. Late summer comes and by then those cellar dweller recruiting classes are 100% forgotten about. Practices start and it's nothing but spin and rainbows instead of playing one game at a time. Season starts and it's a crash back to reality from tv shows and media hype.

Tough to have serious discussions in that type of environment.

[Atlhogfan1]

We can't have rational discussions about recruiting (or anything else for that matter) because every national signing day when we sign another class in the  SEC cellar people are afraid/naive to call it for what it is. Our fan base has head in the sand syndrome when it comes to recruiting (unless it's the day or two after playing Bama)...those are the only times people will admit some of our recruiting shortfalls.

If you want a real laugh go back in the archives to 2010 or 2011 national signing day on here. People don't want to have a serious discussion. It's all out  homer talk or bust.

The recruiting forum hasn't been readable in years if ever. It's pointless. We get commits from guys with little or no SEC offers and the experts in there claim it's a milestone in recruiting and we are headed to new heights & that we have never seen this type of recruiting prowess at Arkansas. Same way with every recruit, every coach, every year.

Then comes the spring game...if anyone questions anything concerning about performance there "you are a blowhard idiot there...it's just a glorified practice, we'll be just fine..I trust (insert present coaches name). But of course if any performances are positive in the spring game that is Harped upon and highly hyped into the summer.

Then summer comes around and we start to work ourselves into a frenzy via the coaches and media spin of how awesome are. Non football related stuff like the Bielema tv show deflects from actual football which is genius PR work from Jeff Long. Late summer comes and by then those cellar dweller recruiting classes are 100% forgotten about. Practices start and it's nothing but spin and rainbows instead of playing one game at a time. Season starts and it's a crash back to reality from tv shows and media hype.

Tough to have serious discussions in that type of environment.

It isn't all homer talk or bust.  Don't bring that just because you are upset and think you are being dismissed.  I saw your post in Okla's thread.  Criticizing backed by reason is great.  That isn't what I was talking about.  I am talking about the complete [CENSORED] who are here to be [CENSORED]. 

Recruiting discussions are rarely reasonable.  I rarely post in the recruiting forums or even read them. 

Plenty is discussed here that is critical.  Big difference in that and "Fatboy", "team is a bunch of quitters", "Bielema is an idiot", "I hate that goofy look on his face", "we should have hired -", "we should have never fired","tv show", "twitter"

See, you with the Jeff Long bull. 

Media hype?  We were picked last.

I agree it is hard with so much emotional venting, whining plus the [CENSORED]. 

[al_pigcino]

It rises and falls with Arkansas high schools.  Not only do we have an up hill battle with a group of 3 star recruits but you also don't have the luxury of redshirting them with the talent deficit we started with.  Some of the 3 star Arkansas kids are really good on paper but not so much when it comes to technique.
You also won't see 6'5 235lb OLB's with 4.7 speed because at a town like Des Arc they are the biggest kid on the field so they are automatically a tackle. 

[jkstock04]

It isn't all homer talk or bust.  Don't bring that just because you are upset and think you are being dismissed.  I saw your post in Okla's thread.  Criticizing backed by reason is great.  That isn't what I was talking about.  I am talking about the complete [CENSORED] who are here to be [CENSORED]. 

Recruiting discussions are rarely reasonable.  I rarely post in the recruiting forums or even read them. 

Plenty is discussed here that is critical.  Big difference in that and "Fatboy", "team is a bunch of quitters", "Bielema is an idiot", "I hate that goofy look on his face", "we should have hired -", "we should have never fired","tv show", "twitter"

See, you with the Jeff Long bull. 

Media hype?  We were picked last.

I agree it is hard with so much emotional venting, whining plus the [CENSORED]. 

Local media. I can't count the number of times Clay Henry and Bo tried convincing everyone & themselves the O-line would be fine this season.

I honestly see the TV show as a deflection to football. What else is the point of it? Honest questions as I never watched it...is there anything about actual football in that show? Does it show practices or inner workings of the coaches? Does it show Bielema going on the recruiting trail? That would interest me but from the sounds of it on Hogville it's about his wife, dogs, and going to the grocery store.

I'm really not upset. The LSU game didn't phase me one bit & I won't be surprised if we fall short in Starkville this week.

[Atlhogfan1]

Local media. I can't count the number of times Clay Henry and Bo tried convincing everyone & themselves the O-line would be fine this season.

I honestly see the TV show as a deflection to football. What else is the point of it? Honest questions as I never watched it...is there anything about actual football in that show? Does it show practices or inner workings of the coaches? Does it show Bielema going on the recruiting trail? That would interest me but from the sounds of it on Hogville it's about his wife, dogs, and going to the grocery store.

I'm really not upset. The LSU game didn't phase me one bit & I won't be surprised if we fall short in Starkville this week.

Never listen to Black Sheep Henry.  I remember 15-20 years ago listening to his BS about what we were looking like in practice.  Practices are closed now mostly so he really is clueless. 


I see the tv show as an opportunity to build our brand and relate to fans, parents of recruits and recruits.  We have for years wanted to do things to expand our brand.  Most obsessed with uniforms.  We have a personable coach who much of the press loves.  But somehow that is causing us to play defense poorly. 

It has shown Bielema on the recruiting trail.  What it cannot do is get us in trouble with the NCAA and it is very dangerous to show too much on the recruiting trail. 

[jkstock04]

It rises and falls with Arkansas high schools.  Not only do we have an up hill battle with a group of 3 star recruits but you also don't have the luxury of redshirting them with the talent deficit we started with.  Some of the 3 star Arkansas kids are really good on paper but not so much when it comes to technique.
You also won't see 6'5 235lb OLB's with 4.7 speed because at a town like Des Arc they are the biggest kid on the field so they are automatically a tackle. 

I've said for a few years these Arkansas coaches (head coaches in particular) who come here go at this the wrong way. They travel wasting time and energy from coast to coast trying to find diamonds in the rough 2/3* players.

I think (if it follows NCAA rules) they should implement some sort of programs at all the big districts in the state to get more kids involved in football. What has happened to our Little Rock pipeline? Why don't we hit Memphis harder? I say stay close and work harder.

How many kids are walking the hallways in these big Arkansas school districts that if given the correct direction and guidance would be legit division 1 athletes? I would wager many. If I were a coach here I would try and tap into that somehow vs trying to convince some south Florida kid to come here.

The university should have programs at every big district...especially the inner city ones...to help these kids get involved. What this would do in the long run is make Arkansas high school football step up a couple of notches if not more. Then we would have better in state recruiting and in turn not have to go all over the country and have piss poor recruiting vs the rest of the SEC.

[colbs]

Arkansas probably will never have a top 10 class, let alone multiple ones.  This will probably be true no matter the coach.  So in order for Arkansas to compete in the west a few things will have to align.  Whoever the coach will have to have an eye for talent and be really good at developing players.  You cannot afford to miss on a lot recruits here.  The west will probably have to be a little "down".  When Bama, LSU, Auburn, A&M, and Ole Miss & MSU(minus this year but a couple years before) have pretty good teams it's going to be really hard to break through.  You have to hope that there are maybe 2 other top 25 teams in the west.  Saban retiring wouldn't hurt either.

[S.A.D.C]

The issue here is, once again, expectations.  Much like the discussion about how many wins on average fans should "expect".  But, in the case of recruiting there is a long history across multiple coaching regimes to make clear exactly what the expectations should be. 

Arkansas has always recruited at about the same level.  The only thing that has consistently made our classes above average is a year with above average in-state talent.  But even then:  Arkansas could double the number of 4* and 5* players we have had in the last 4 years and still be significantly behind the top tier of the SECW.  At the end of the day the one known fact about being head coach at Arkansas is: you will have to do more with less even in your best years.  It is no wonder that the same people who deny that reality also want everyone on The Hill fired, expect 10 wins every year, and live in a constant state of being pissed off. 

I think it is a fair question to ask if CBB is a coach who can do more with less?  I hope he is and believe he will.  But I don't believe he has yet...

[hogsanity]

I've said for a few years these Arkansas coaches (head coaches in particular) who come here go at this the wrong way. They travel wasting time and energy from coast to coast trying to find diamonds in the rough 2/3* players.

I think (if it follows NCAA rules) they should implement some sort of programs at all the big districts in the state to get more kids involved in football. What has happened to our Little Rock pipeline? Why don't we hit Memphis harder? I say stay close and work harder.

How many kids are walking the hallways in these big Arkansas school districts that if given the correct direction and guidance would be legit division 1 athletes? I would wager many. If I were a coach here I would try and tap into that somehow vs trying to convince some south Florida kid to come here.

The university should have programs at every big district...especially the inner city ones...to help these kids get involved. What this would do in the long run is make Arkansas high school football step up a couple of notches if not more. Then we would have better in state recruiting and in turn not have to go all over the country and have piss poor recruiting vs the rest of the SEC.

Sadly, a large part of it is they can't stay eligible.

[Dwillhog66]

BB's success @ Wisky was predicated on having redshirted OL & DL in each class. Having those 4th & 5th year players can make a huge difference vs having mostly freshmen & sophmores. At this time we aren't equivalent to what he was working with at Wis. That system was already in place and working very well when he took over there.

We are still at least 2 years away from reaching that level here at Ark IMO. DL may be 3 or 4 years away, we haven't been able to redshirt many there. Patience is required for us to be on a more competitive stage w/ AL, Aub, LSU.

That's the way I see it at this time.

[Atlhogfan1]

BB's success @ Wisky was predicated on having redshirted OL & DL in each class. Having those 4th & 5th year players can make a huge difference vs having mostly freshmen & sophmores. At this time we aren't equivalent to what he was working with at Wis. That system was already in place and working very well when he took over there.

We are still at least 2 years away from reaching that level here at Ark IMO. DL may be 3 or 4 years away, we haven't been able to redshirt many there. Patience is required for us to be on a more competitive stage w/ AL, Aub, LSU.

That's the way I see it at this time.

It took Alvarez a long time to get Wisconsin setup.  We wouldn't wait that long.  Nor should we if the D doesn't get fixed. 

[jkstock04]

Sadly, a large part of it is they can't stay eligible.

So implement something to get them academically involved as well. That absolutely should be part of the program i am proposing.

I think I have seen you mention you are from Fort Smith right? I've been told the number of kids at Northside that fall through the cracks over the years is crazy. No guidance, no discipline , ect. The university needs a stamp on these places to get these kids involved and on the right track. Lots of untapped potential there. Just my opinion.   

[Youngsta71701]

We definitely need to recruit some faster LB's and stop trying to make all of them 275 pounds. Speed on the 2nd and 4th levels are our major weakness right now on defense.

BTW I think Ramsey type linebackers are what we need. He is plenty fast enough. And maybe we need to turn some corners into safeties to make the back line of our defense faster...

[Dwillhog66]

It took Alvarez a long time to get Wisconsin setup.  We wouldn't wait that long.  Nor should we if the D doesn't get fixed.

You are probably correct about waiting that long. It all depends on the decision makers and whether they have the vision to let it play out. There is no way to know if the Wisconsin model will even work here but if it did work would that be the kind of success the majority of the fanbase would accept and be happy with.
IMO I think it would be very satisfactory to have the kind of success Wisconsin has had and since we have begun the process I would like for us to see it through. If coach B can continue reaching bowl games over the next 3 to 4 years I believe we will see some very good results from that patience.

[Gonzo]

BWAAAHHHHH.  He got his skill players out of a 2 year class of AR HS talent so far above what the state usually produces it is almost indescribable. A town of 4000 people produced a class with THREE NFL draft picks. Do you realize how incredibly rare that is.

I will ask you, what better skill position players did he sign in the 2011 & 2012 classes, right after going 10-3 and 11-2? I can guarantee the sill positions were not any where near the calibre of Adams, Childs, Wright, Gragg, TW from in state, plus RM & Cobi from just across the border. Throw in Bequette and Franklin just in state on D and Petrino did what every other coach at AR has done - he rode a team full of great in state recruits. 

When the state produces another 2 yr class with 8 r 9 nfl draft picks again the Hogs will challenge for the secw.

A pretty quick and simple review of the recruiting rankings of that time will show you the AR HS talent was hardly a boatload of world beaters. The 2008 class was ranked 27th and 36th by 247 and Rivals respectively, pretty much a normal class for Arkansas. Of the three Warren kids, only Wright was even a 4 star. I suppose it's out of the question that perhaps his coaching and his offense might have played a fairly significant role in their NFL careers. Not to mention several of the players y'all keep wanting to claim just magically fell into his lap either were attending or were planning to attend other schools prior to his arrival at the UA. I suppose his arrival had nothing to do with those moves either.

He screwed up, he's evil, I get it. But I also get a huge laugh out the lengths so many here will go to in order to "prove" he's really not very good at what he does, no matter what the actual results suggest.

He's not coming back, and I hope BB manages to put together some stretches like we saw with BP, time will tell. If he doesn't, I hope the next coach will, just as I always have.


Go Hogs! Beat Miss St!

[Sow Lancelot]

The thing that will keep a program such as ours above average in most years is first and foremost recruiting players that fit your system and then second, and just as important, is the long-term development of those players.

This is most obvious on both the OL and the DL as someone else has stated. Most years having well-prepared Jrs and Srs should be competitive with 4 and 5 star freshmen from other schools.

This requires a great deal of patience due to attrition and injury.

The only other way is to begin to somehow sign the same number of 4 and 5s as the haves. Convincing a significant number of them to come here is a longer-term process than the Old Mr$. way.

[hogsanity]

A pretty quick and simple review of the recruiting rankings of that time will show you the AR HS talent was hardly a boatload of world beaters. The 2008 class was ranked 27th and 36th by 247 and Rivals respectively, pretty much a normal class for Arkansas. Of the three Warren kids, only Wright was even a 4 star. I suppose it's out of the question that perhaps his coaching and his offense might have played a fairly significant role in their NFL careers. Not to mention several of the players y'all keep wanting to claim just magically fell into his lap either were attending or were planning to attend other schools prior to his arrival at the UA. I suppose his arrival had nothing to do with those moves either.

He screwed up, he's evil, I get it. But I also get a huge laugh out the lengths so many here will go to in order to "prove" he's really not very good at what he does, no matter what the actual results suggest.

He's not coming back, and I hope BB manages to put together some stretches like we saw with BP, time will tell. If he doesn't, I hope the next coach will, just as I always have.


Go Hogs! Beat Miss St!

Didn't say they fell into his lap, I said he rode a class full of far above average for what it usually produces in state kids. HDN did that twice, Hatfield did it, Holtz did it too. Even Ford's one secw title team had a lot of good in staters on it. Do you really think Joe Adams turns down USC for Arkansas if he wasn't an in state kid, even with BP as coach here? Does RM or TW come here if, as in the case of Rm he had not been a life long Hog fan and TW a instate HS phenom?

Arkansas will live and die with the instate talent pool, an for the last several years that pool has been pretty shallow.

[Gonzo]

Didn't say they fell into his lap, I said he rode a class full of far above average for what it usually produces in state kids. HDN did that twice, Hatfield did it, Holtz did it too. Even Ford's one secw title team had a lot of good in staters on it. Do you really think Joe Adams turns down USC for Arkansas if he wasn't an in state kid, even with BP as coach here? Does RM or TW come here if, as in the case of Rm he had not been a life long Hog fan and TW a instate HS phenom?

Arkansas will live and die with the instate talent pool, an for the last several years that pool has been pretty shallow.

Once again, the recruiting coverage of that year belies your assertion it was "a class full of far above average for what it usually produces in state kids". It was a pretty normal Hog recruiting class.

As for whether or not Adams, Mallett, or Wilson would have gone to the UA had they not been Arkansas kids or fans, I only know they weren't going there prior to BP's arrival, so apparently neither their birthplace nor their fandom was the sole basis for their decisions.  I think your disdain for the man is clouding your opinion, but that only makes you one of many, on both sides of the fight.


Go Hogs! Beat Miss St!

[hogsanity]

Once again, the recruiting coverage of that year belies your assertion it was "a class full of far above average for what it usually produces in state kids". It was a pretty normal Hog recruiting class.

As for whether or not Adams, Mallett, or Wilson would have gone to the UA had they not been Arkansas kids or fans, I only know they weren't going there prior to BP's arrival, so apparently neither their birthplace nor their fandom was the sole basis for their decisions.  I think your disdain for the man is clouding your opinion, but that only makes you one of many, on both sides of the fight.


Go Hogs! Beat Miss St!

I am not talking recruiting rankings, I am talking production and draft status. What other 2 year period saw that many Ar HS kids come out, play college ball, and get drafted in to the NFL? I do not look much at recruiting rankings. You want to judge a recruit, see what he is doing as a soph or JR in college.

[Gonzo]

I am not talking recruiting rankings, I am talking production and draft status. What other 2 year period saw that many Ar HS kids come out, play college ball, and get drafted in to the NFL? I do not look much at recruiting rankings. You want to judge a recruit, see what he is doing as a soph or JR in college.

Bingo! Glad we now agree. You initially were claiming it was just because all these high school studs showed up at the same time and made the job easy. Now you're saying exactly what I was talking about the whole time, just maybe their development under the coach in question while at the UA had something to do with their productivity and NFL careers.


Go Hogs! Beat Miss St!

[HogNdazs]

I agree with a lot of posters that we will never be a consistent top 10 recruiting school, we just won't.  We will never be a consistent 10 win school either.  We have to just accept that. We will have some great years, like going to the sugar bowl, and we will have some not great years like missing a bowl. But we will not be consistently a top power ever. And that is ok.

It sucks we will have to deal with the high's and low's but temper your expectations and it should be a little better.  I will be supporting the hogs in both types of seasons.

[al_pigcino]

You throw rankings out the window when it comes to Childs, Wright, and Gragg all in one class.  It wouldn't matter if they were 2 stars.  That's still a high class. 

[hogsanity]

Bingo! Glad we now agree. You initially were claiming it was just because all these high school studs showed up at the same time and made the job easy. Now you're saying exactly what I was talking about the whole time, just maybe their development under the coach in question while at the UA had something to do with their productivity and NFL careers.


Go Hogs! Beat Miss St!

But the fact remain very talented athletic kids, in good numbers at skill positions were there to recruit. It does not change that the only times the Hogs are really good is when they have a ton of talent from in state.

[DeltaBoy]

So what we see is this staff is truly doing more with less.  But there no majic answer to our recruiting struggles.

[thefisher]

Arkansas win/loss totals will rise and fall largely on what the in state high schools can produce. They must supplement best as can be done outside of that.  When final recruiting stats are placed alongside conference championships there is absolutely zero doubt about that.

CBP was fortunate enough to be the coach during a time when the high schools produced once in a lifetime (at least so far for Arkansas high schools) crops of players.

Here were the real stats -

Petrino signed 52 in state recruits over the five year period. That averages out to 10.4 SEC players per year



 that went for the Hogs.  There were a few other SEC players but they went to other schools.

In 2008, the best in state class ever, CBP actually signed 16 in state players to the team.

CBB has signed 33 total in state recruits over the five year period. That averages out to 6.6 SEC players per year.

The state yielded a 37% better recruiting base average under the years CBP was the coach as opposed to what CBB has had available.

Until demographic/population realities change or the Arkansas high school system changes that is reality.

There is no coach that can change that with the possible exceptions of Gruden, Saban, or Carroll.  Given Saban's record before he went to LSU one must wonder if even he could do it at Arkansas. He has obviously won big at LSU and Alabama. However, they also have 4-10 times the elite level recruits close to campus that Arkansas does.

[Gonzo]

You throw rankings out the window when it comes to Childs, Wright, and Gragg all in one class.  It wouldn't matter if they were 2 stars.  That's still a high class. 

People typically toss out any data when it doesn't suit their argument, then gleefully embrace the same when it does.



Go Hogs! Beat Miss St!

[MJ2]

If you think it's only recruiting that makes a team talk to Michigan and Louisville fans, they'll tell you quickly that it's coaching.

[hogsanity]

If you think it's only recruiting that makes a team talk to Michigan and Louisville fans, they'll tell you quickly that it's coaching.

Well then lets see Harbaugh or BP go to some place like Buffalo or Ball St and win big time then.

No one has said it is ONLY recruiting, but given the choice, a team of 4 and 5 star players and a sos so X's & 0's coach against a team of 3 stars with a really good x's & 0's coach the team of 4 7 5 stars will win a majority of the time.

[Youngsta71701]

We'll never consistently have better recruiting classes than the teams in the SEC West. So I guess our goal will continue to be 6 wins a year...

[hogsanity]

We'll never consistently have better recruiting classes than the teams in the SEC West. So I guess our goal will continue to be 6 wins a year...

No, the goal is to get as close as you can in talent, and then win games by coaching that talent to exploit other teams weaknesses.

[thefisher]

We'll never consistently have better recruiting classes than the teams in the SEC West.

Yes, that is a fact for the foreseeable future

So I guess our goal will continue to be 6 wins a year...

Of course not.  The goal is to win the West Division.  However, it must be done with lower talent levels and a great deal less overall depth on the team.  Work hard, plan hard, come out and give it your best shot.  Sometimes it will come together and you will play flawless while they make a couple mistakes and the Hogs will win. However, make no mistake that the elite level teams in the West are a clear level above in talent. 

In terms of an analogy ... the Hogs are in a gunfight.  The elite West teams have six shells in the cylinder.  The Hogs only have 3 shells in theirs.  Can the guy with only half the shots available still win the gunfight?  Sure .... but the odds clearly favor the guy with double the weapons. But ... sometimes the guy with 3 shots wins. That's why the games are played.

[Youngsta71701]

No, the goal is to get as close as you can in talent, and then win games by coaching that talent to exploit other teams weaknesses.

My point exactly. I'm trying to get these people that keep using recruiting as an excuse to realize that. Without excellent coaching we will never win the West and go the SEC championship game again.

The coaches have to come through. The offensive coaching, the defensive coaching, and the special teams coaching ALL have to be good if not great. Not just some of the time but ALL the time.

[thefisher]

My point exactly. I'm trying to get these people that keep using recruiting as an excuse to realize that. Without excellent coaching we will never win the West and go the SEC championship game again.

The point that many are missing is that CBP and CBB are both very talented coaches.  However, neither one has ever been close to winning the West. CBP finished at an average of 3.2 in the West and never threatened at all. Good overall record but no closer to winning the West than we are now.  Of course CBB hasn't had the Hogs any closer. The Hogs finished 3rd in the West last year ... just about where CBP averaged.  Point is both coaches are good coaches ... very different men .... but as far as coaching goes ... good coaches.

The difference is that neither has had the overall talent up front, and certainly not the talent depth built into the roster, to compete for the West.

That is what some folks aren't getting. Neither CBP or CBB has challenged at all for the West ... not because they couldn't coach ... but because the other elite teams have far better talent and a great deal more of it.  No coach can completely make up for that.

To be consistently dominant you must have BOTH.  The Hogs have had good coaching ... but the talent level is what has kept the ceiling in the West were it is for both CBP and CBB.

The missing piece of the puzzle at Arkansas isn't the coaching. CBP and CBB both posses that.  It is the lower up front talent level and the extreme disparity in overall roster depth talent levels available to the Hogs versus the elite West teams.

[Youngsta71701]

The point that many are missing is that CBP and CBB are both very talented coaches.  However, neither one has ever been close to winning the West. CBP finished at an average of 3.2 in the West and never threatened at all. Good overall record but no closer to winning the West than we are now.  Of course CBB hasn't had the Hogs any closer. The Hogs finished 3rd in the West last year ... just about where CBP averaged.  Point is both coaches are good coaches ... very different men .... but as far as coaching goes ... good coaches.

The difference is that neither has had the overall talent up front, and certainly not the talent depth built into the roster, to compete for the West.

That is what some folks aren't getting. Neither CBP or CBB has challenged at all for the West ... not because they couldn't coach ... but because the other elite teams have far better talent and a great deal more of it.  No coach can completely make up for that.

To be consistently dominant you must have BOTH.  The Hogs have had good coaching ... but the talent level is what has kept the ceiling in the West were it is for both CBP and CBB.

The missing piece of the puzzle at Arkansas isn't the coaching. CBP and CBB both posses that.  It is the lower up front talent level and the extreme disparity in overall roster depth talent levels available to the Hogs versus the elite West teams.

Maybe we should get Jerry Jones to help with recruiting. lol...

[majp51]

Arkansas win/loss totals will rise and fall largely on what the in state high schools can produce. They must supplement best as can be done outside of that.  When final recruiting stats are placed alongside conference championships there is absolutely zero doubt about that.

CBP was fortunate enough to be the coach during a time when the high schools produced once in a lifetime (at least so far for Arkansas high schools) crops of players.

Here were the real stats -

Petrino signed 52 in state recruits over the five year period. That averages out to 10.4 SEC players per year



 that went for the Hogs.  There were a few other SEC players but they went to other schools.

In 2008, the best in state class ever, CBP actually signed 16 in state players to the team.

CBB has signed 33 total in state recruits over the five year period. That averages out to 6.6 SEC players per year.

The state yielded a 37% better recruiting base average under the years CBP was the coach as opposed to what CBB has had available.

Until demographic/population realities change or the Arkansas high school system changes that is reality.

There is no coach that can change that with the possible exceptions of Gruden, Saban, or Carroll.  Given Saban's record before he went to LSU one must wonder if even he could do it at Arkansas. He has obviously won big at LSU and Alabama. However, they also have 4-10 times the elite level recruits close to campus that Arkansas does.

Err, those are all nice numbers , but you need to look at context WRT to BP and recruiting strategies. My point here is that in addition to having some potentially better talent, it was also a better fit fro the scheme Petrino used.

Which may actually give credence to the idea that someone like a CBP will always be more successful than CBB at a school like Arkansas, because his scheme is better suited to take advantage of what talent that does come out of the state. I should hasten to add that I don't know the answer to that question, but if you do look at raw recruiting rankings/numbers CBP has equal or worse ranking, yet significantly better records than CBB. I'm not sold on the idea, but it is something to ponder.

[majp51]

The difference is that neither has had the overall talent up front, and certainly not the talent depth built into the roster, to compete for the West.

That is what some folks aren't getting. Neither CBP or CBB has challenged at all for the West ... not because they couldn't coach ... but because the other elite teams have far better talent and a great deal more of it.  No coach can completely make up for that.

Thats more than a little revisionist history. I believe Arkansas made the right call on Petrino, but he absolutely did challenge for the SEC west, especially in 2010.

He lost two games in the SEC that year.

The Bama game was  24-20, and it really was that close. The Auburn game was neck and neck until turnovers in the 4th quarter shot the Razorbacks. Now sure 2011 had two blowout losses like the 4 we had this year, but we absolutely were competing.

[Atlhogfan1]

Err, those are all nice numbers , but you need to look at context WRT to BP and recruiting strategies. My point here is that in addition to having some potentially better talent, it was also a better fit fro the scheme Petrino used.

Which may actually give credence to the idea that someone like a CBP will always be more successful than CBB at a school like Arkansas, because his scheme is better suited to take advantage of what talent that does come out of the state. I should hasten to add that I don't know the answer to that question, but if you do look at raw recruiting rankings/numbers CBP has equal or worse ranking, yet significantly better records than CBB. I'm not sold on the idea, but it is something to ponder.

The state produces Mallett's regularly?  Ryan's arm and ability had a huge effect on the success in 2009 and especially 2010.  Defenses had to play us differently especially the secondary.  He spread the field by the threat of the throws he could make.  He alone made a big difference. 

Before it is mentioned, Tyler was a good college qb.  But it wasn't the same as evidenced by the elite opponents in 2011 vs 2010. 

The way Enos is coming out passing first to try and set up the run isn't some 180 degree change from BP.  It isn't offensive scheme right now. 

[go hogues]

I think (if it follows NCAA rules) they should implement some sort of programs at all the big districts in the state to get more kids involved in football. What has happened to our Little Rock pipeline?

If I were a coach here I would try and tap into that somehow vs trying to convince some south Florida kid to come here.

The university should have programs at every big district...especially the inner city ones...to help these kids get involved. What this would do in the long run is make Arkansas high school football step up a couple of notches if not more.

That's great ideology but it would be a full time job for a decade, at least, for a coach and/or university to implement.

I just think interest in football is not as high in Arkansas as in other southern states. The push from the community to make their high schools (save for private) great football powers is certainly not there.

[majp51]

The state produces Mallett's regularly?  Ryan's arm and ability had a huge effect on the success in 2009 and especially 2010.  Defenses had to play us differently especially the secondary.  He spread the field by the threat of the throws he could make.  He alone made a big difference. 

Atlhogfan, I was discussing Fishers comment about the raw numbers of in-state talent, not the individuals. He was pointing out that CBP had 37% more in-state players than did CBB, and while yes some of that was a bumper crop, some of that was also because said bumper crop fit the Scheme. Yes Mallett was a great get, and it helped tremendously, however Joe Adams , for instance, would likely been a USC Trojan had CBB been here because  he doesn't meet the height and weight criteria for WR's in CBB Scheme. Honestly I'm not sure any of the Warren Kids would have either. Tyler Wilson would also have likely Stayed with Gus in Tulsa, given CBB's rep (deserved or not).

And to hear you and everyone else on this board, if the Talent from those years had been on the Defensive side of the ball, they would not have come to the hill even if a vision from God had told them to.

I'm not dissing the Offensive scheme of CBB, just pointing out that Arkansas talent has by and large not jived with his primary scheme, and we could have a bumper crop of actual talent, that our current staff might not recruit because it doesn't fit.

[Atlhogfan1]

Atlhogfan, I was discussing Fishers comment about the raw numbers of in-state talent, not the individuals. He was pointing out that CBP had 37% more in-state players than did CBB, and while yes some of that was a bumper crop, some of that was also because said bumper crop fit the Scheme. Yes Mallett was a great get, and it helped tremendously, however Joe Adams , for instance, would likely been a USC Trojan had CBB been here because  he doesn't meet the height and weight criteria for WR's in CBB Scheme. Honestly I'm not sure any of the Warren Kids would have either. Tyler Wilson would also have likely Stayed with Gus in Tulsa, given CBB's rep (deserved or not).

And to hear you and everyone else on this board, if the Talent from those years had been on the Defensive side of the ball, they would not have come to the hill even if a vision from God had told them to.

I'm not dissing the Offensive scheme of CBB, just pointing out that Arkansas talent has by and large not jived with his primary scheme, and we could have a bumper crop of actual talent, that our current staff might not recruit because it doesn't fit.

I have no idea where you got this bolded part.  Makes no sense. 

I would love for the state to put the staff in that position to decide.

The state has produced some elite RBs over the decades.  The last great one?  HH helped.  Agim will help.  But the talent from Arkansas high schools is so limited, not sure what scheme it would jive with as a whole. 

[hogsanity]

That's great ideology but it would be a full time job for a decade, at least, for a coach and/or university to implement.

I just think interest in football is not as high in Arkansas as in other southern states. The push from the community to make their high schools (save for private) great football powers is certainly not there.

UMMM, no, the push is there, just go to any home field on a Friday night ( now maybe not in LR if we are limiting the discussion to LR ). The problem is most of the teams are made up of skinny, slow white kids, or big fat slow white kids. Not many AR HS football players pass the eye test.

As has been pointed out here before, the state of Miss, with the same populations, produces 3.5 times more signees than does AR. Not really any way to discuss the why's of that without getting into some very non-pc territory.

[DeltaBoy]

Unless we go the money and Girls route I see no easy fixes.

[Youngsta71701]

Unless we go the money and Girls route I see no easy fixes.

I say go the girls route. As long as no money is passed. Have some of the cheerleaders and volleyball players make some of the phone calls to the recruits and show the recruits around campus. Guaranteed winner!!