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What has caused the OL issues?

Started by Nipsey Mussle, September 16, 2017, 01:08:01 am

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Nipsey Mussle

Bad evals? Bad coaching? Bad luck? All 3?

Boiler plate BB blaming will accomplish nothing in this thread, I'm truly wondering what has led to these problems.

Pittman leaving may have contributed, and perhaps Anderson needs to go. Also, bad luck in that a guy like Brian Wallace can't crack this starting lineup, despite being an army all american?

B501

coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result

 

radar

When I hear our coaches say that the defensive front was doing something they hadn't seen before, and were unable to adjust to, makes it pretty clear where the problem is.

presidenthog

Quote from: b501 on September 16, 2017, 01:27:39 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result

It's a mixture of this and poor recruiting.

He cares more about guys being 5 min early to meetings and thier GPA than he does talent.

He is HDN, but instead of his favorites being the most talented guys, it's the guys who have his favorite personality and highest GPA.

Qadi999

The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.

Dominicanhog

Quote from: Qadi999 on September 16, 2017, 05:19:22 am
The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.

I agree about offensive philosophy changing... from Road graders to more mobility,,, wouldn't doubt before this year is over, we change again due to lack of production... lets hope not

doc53

less talent and a lack of coaching ability.
I was THERE for the Pooch Kick

ShadowHawg

It is CBB and his love of underdogs.

We can let Froholdt and Clary get whipped without threat of losing starter status because they need to learn the position but we won't do that for any of the three four star rated linemen on the bench.

That's why the line play is bad.

The_Iceman

It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.

Been10Hog

Quote from: The_Iceman on September 18, 2017, 06:49:40 am
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.
I really think the coaches do not have an agenda to play favorites. They are playing the players who win the job in practice. I hate it that we signed players ranked as high as Merrick and Wallace and then they don't pan out! But, we are going to play the best. I was a walkon in 80s for coach Hatfield. We signed the #1 center in country out of Texas. He mauled his high school opponents. When he got on campus he was big, but weak. I could bench press more than him as a 170# DB. You don't always get what is advertised by 5* and 4* rankings. I wish Wallace and Merrick would get a fire in their belly and take a position away!!

Rudy Baylor

I miss Big Dan the bar room brawler

he played nasty and I liked it

Junkyard Hog

I can't believe we're having as many OL issues as we do.

When Petrino was here, I never worried about qbs.

I thought when Beliema got here I'd never have to worry about the OL.  I was wrong.

GoHogs1091

Several things.

Bielema has yet to get the Left Tackle position figured out since he has been here.  Surprising since Bielema is regarded as being an OL "guru."

The Left Guard, Froholdt, is just in his 2nd season of playing the position.  While he has become better, he is still relatively inexperienced playing the position.  Experience matters for an Offensive Lineman.

Gibson, is being played out of position.  He is a Guard, not a Tackle.  Playing Gibson at Right Guard should be a basic fundamental decision by the Head Coach, but I presume it is a decision that is too difficult for Bielema to get correct.

Kurt Anderson is regarded as a technician teacher.  Anderson probably has saturated them with technique principles to the point that they are simply thinking too much in order to try to get technique correct.  Pittman just taught them to be physical, and to push the defensive players down the field.  Physicality a lot of times is more important than technique.

 

hoglady

I can't imagine they wouldn't play the best players.
I also can't imagine the 4* OL recruits sitting the bench aren't better than a freshman walkon.
It's just a strange situation.
Inside every "older" person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened?

"Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

Razorback de Nosferatu

Quote from: Qadi999 on September 16, 2017, 05:19:22 am
The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.

I'm appreciative of Enos coming in here and improving both Brandon Allen and the passing game generally. 

But it's true that Arkansas has lost that tough, physical mentality they had during the Pittman/Chaney years.  It's fine to be a pass-first team when you've got the tools for that--Hatcher and Morgan bailed them out of a lot of tough situations last year.

Now, though, they're gone, and the majority of our offensive talent seems to be in the running game.

I was really hoping we could Lubbock (verb) TCU, and moving forward, get back to a run-first mentality that plays to the team's strength.  But the offense just has no identity right now.  Arkansas became a pass-first operation last year.  And with huge turnover in the receiving corp., now what?

Piggfoot

Hog fan since 1960. So thankful for Sam Pittman.

KlubhouseKonnected

Who was it that quoted a retired college coach as Atari g our offensive line tries to do too much "NFL crap" that the majority of college players are not going to be able to do.
If Auburn is dirty so is Gus. You can't have it both ways. Deal with it.

ThisTeetsTaken

Pittman left.   Hasn't been replaced. 
***"He must increase, but I must decrease"***

Atlhogfan1

Numbers in recruiting.  Development. 

Oline is probably the hardest position to evaluate in recruiting.  When you try and have a sophisticated blocking scheme which requires both firing off the ball in run blocking and then finesse backing up pass blocking it takes time to develop those players. Limited practice time in college hinders it too. Said the same thing back when Petrino was here.   Tough to do in college.  Takes numbers, athletic talent, player intellect and time to develop.

Should have recruited more OL earlier but we did have an entire program to overhaul. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: KlubhouseKonnected on September 18, 2017, 10:32:15 am
Who was it that quoted a retired college coach as Atari g our offensive line tries to do too much "NFL crap" that the majority of college players are not going to be able to do.

And coaches have far less time to teach.
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Little Lady Back

Quote from: Rudy Baylor on September 18, 2017, 09:43:49 am
I miss Big Dan the bar room brawler

he played nasty and I liked it

Skipper caught some flack on here during his time on the hill, but I liked his mean play and what he brought to the team. He did however make some knucklehead mistakes sometimes, but we could use that grit and meanness he had on the line now.
#NolanRichardsonCourt

DeltaBoy

Recruiting Failures and lack of fire .
If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: b501 on September 16, 2017, 01:27:39 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result

If you mean position coach, I believe you may be right. Some kids may be buying in more than others...
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

GunnerHawg70

Quote from: Rudy Baylor on September 18, 2017, 09:43:49 am
I miss Big Dan the bar room brawler

he played nasty and I liked it
Yup...Big Skip brought a level of tenancious and nastiness that seems to be lacking with current OL...sure he got penalized and some were costly but you gotta love big guys that are just mean and ornery...

 

DoctorSusscrofa

Quote from: hoglady on September 18, 2017, 10:16:10 am
I can't imagine they wouldn't play the best players.
I also can't imagine the 4* OL recruits sitting the bench aren't better than a freshman walkon.
It's just a strange situation.

Coaches are probably not imagining.
I expect to win the games we ought to win and be competitive in as many other games as possible. - M Barton

GuvHog

Quote from: The_Iceman on September 18, 2017, 06:49:40 am
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.

It's not the coaching, something is wrong with Merrick and Wallace but you can't seem to figure that out.

Wallace and Merrick were recruited as Road graders for CBB's run first offense he ran in 2014 but now that Enos wants O-linemen that are quicker and can pull for the passing game, they are like ducks out of water.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

12247

If you know whats wrong with Merrick and Wallace, why don't you tell us.  And if you are in the know, why not tell us whats wrong with the 5th year senior QB, the huge bunch of WRs and nary a one that can do his job, the special teams that are pitiful at best, the D linemen that can be pushed around by TCU and some by FAM.  If its not coaching is the entire team smoking Mary Jane by the ton.  So far as I know our team and staff has the same NCAA rules as to practice time that all the other teams do, or maybe the NCAA has handicapped us on allotted time to practice and I am the only one who didn't get the message.  Hep us out here if you know.

jgphillips3

Quote from: GuvHog on September 18, 2017, 11:25:51 am
It's not the coaching, something is wrong with Merrick and Wallace but you can't seem to figure that out.

Wallace and Merrick were recruited as Road graders for CBB's run first offense he ran in 2014 but now that Enos wants O-linemen that are quicker and can pull for the passing game, they are like ducks out of water.

That would be the simplistic, coach approved view.  It may even be the correct view.  However, we have an all-American center and the rest of the line continues to be either poor or average.  Is that talent (or lack thereof), talented players with the wrong skill set, players who aren't intelligent enough or coachable enough, bad work ethic, bad coaches, bad coaching by good coaches, bad system...who knows.

PorkRinds

Im wondering if some of it may be that some of the studs that Pittman recruited aren't buying in to Anderson's system or coaching.  Maybe they're still not happy about Pittman's departure. Could be a number of things.

forrest city joe

Quote from: b501 on September 16, 2017, 01:27:39 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result
You may be on to something here.i hate to think it's true.but some of the decisions on who plays on this OL is Mindboggling.we have 5 or four star OL who can't get on the field. and we have a converted DL,a walk on,and a Blue shirt starting on this team.something is very wrong here.i can not explain it.

PorkRinds

It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.

jgphillips3

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:03:17 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.

To be fair, HDN did just that so we do have recent history to suggest it.  If they have been playing favorites with less talented players, the heat currently on the staff will result in those more talented players hitting the field, sooner, rather than later.  If we lose to A&M looking anemic again, I suspect we will see several bench players at least get game time.  If the "more talented" players really just aren't that good, this lineup will stay the whole year.  So, either way, the playing favorites theory will either be confirmed or refuted soon enough.

forrest city joe

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:03:17 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.
It's called being stubborn. he feels he can win with the guys who do good in practice.but what if those guys are not getting it done under game pressure? the games are what counts.the nobody tells me who to play stuff is fine if that's what you want to say.but don't be shocked if being stubborn gets you fired. and do not act like a coach has never played favorites.it happens.

PorkRinds

Quote from: jgphillips3 on September 18, 2017, 12:12:27 pm
To be fair, HDN did just that so we do have recent history to suggest it.  If they have been playing favorites with less talented players, the heat currently on the staff will result in those more talented players hitting the field, sooner, rather than later.  If we lose to A&M looking anemic again, I suspect we will see several bench players at least get game time.  If the "more talented" players really just aren't that good, this lineup will stay the whole year.  So, either way, the playing favorites theory will either be confirmed or refuted soon enough.

So you're saying all these folks are suffering from battered women's syndrome?  Just because a moron like HDN would do that 20 years ago doesn't mean it's happening now. Peoplenlove using this excuse but it's almost always an idiotic claim to make.

GuvHog

Quote from: jgphillips3 on September 18, 2017, 11:50:23 am
That would be the simplistic, coach approved view.  It may even be the correct view.  However, we have an all-American center and the rest of the line continues to be either poor or average.  Is that talent (or lack thereof), talented players with the wrong skill set, players who aren't intelligent enough or coachable enough, bad work ethic, bad coaches, bad coaching by good coaches, bad system...who knows.

It's the correct view. The Oline actually graded out well against TCU. 3 of the O-Linemen grade out at 90+.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

forrest city joe

Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.

Kevin

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:03:17 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.

I don't know about playing favorites, but froholdt played almost every meaningful snap last year, and he was awful at times.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

GuvHog

Quote from: forrest city joe on September 18, 2017, 12:21:25 pm
Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.

I believe all of those had some playing time against TCU but they didn't start.

By the way, the starting O-Line is made up of 4 scholarship players and a Blue Shirt.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

PorkRinds

Quote from: Kevin on September 18, 2017, 12:21:30 pm
I don't know about playing favorites, but froholdt played almost every meaningful snap last year, and he was awful at times.

But still evidently better than the option behind him.

Kevin

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:33:09 pm
But still evidently better than the option behind him.

I believe it was more of : we are going to play him no matter what, to get him experience, because they have gone all in on how good he could be.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

Wildhog

Quote from: GuvHog on September 18, 2017, 12:24:27 pm
I believe all of those had some playing time against TCU but they didn't start.

By the way, the starting O-Line is made up of 4 scholarship players and a Blue Shirt.

No such thing as a "blue shirt" except in recruiting discussion.  If you're on the team and not on scholarship, you are a walk-on.  When you get a scholarship, you're no longer a walk-on.  It's pretty simple.
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

PorkRinds

Quote from: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 12:37:12 pm
No such thing as a "blue shirt" except in recruiting discussion.  If you're on the team and not on scholarship, you are a walk-on.  When you get a scholarship, you're no longer a walk-on.  It's pretty simple.

I believe there's a distinction that a blue shirt is guaranteed a scholarship and a walk on is not. I could be wrong about that.

Wildhog

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:47:03 pm
I believe there's a distinction that a blue shirt is guaranteed a scholarship and a walk on is not. I could be wrong about that.

It's a distinction when discussing scholarship numbers and recruiting.  But during the season, if you're playing without a scholarship, you are a walk-on.  There's just not any wiggle room there.  It is what it is.
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

forrest city joe

Quote from: The_Iceman on September 18, 2017, 06:49:40 am
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.
+1000. we often disagree. but not on this.

Been10Hog

Quote from: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 12:37:12 pm
No such thing as a "blue shirt" except in recruiting discussion.  If you're on the team and not on scholarship, you are a walk-on.  When you get a scholarship, you're no longer a walk-on.  It's pretty simple.
When you are the said walkon who was promised a scholarship and don't get one it is called the BULL-shirt

Kevin

Quote from: Been10Hog on September 18, 2017, 01:03:19 pm
When you are the said walkon who was promised a scholarship and don't get one it is called the BULL-shirt

or you have been sabaned
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

woodrow hog call

Quote from: forrest city joe on September 18, 2017, 12:21:25 pm
Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.

AWESOME, now get this list to the equipment guy so he can have the stars put on the back of their practice uniforms. That has to be where the problem is, the coaches can't tell the star ratings when they are watching them practice.

Once you get this done I'm sure they will get the depth chart corrected.
"I hate rude behavior in a man, I won't tolerate it"

PorkRyan

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:03:17 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.

Cole Hedlund vs Adam McFain explain that one. 

Wildhog

Quote from: PorkRyan on September 18, 2017, 01:09:22 pm
Cole Hedlund vs Adam McFain explain that one. 

Actually, I have to agree with you on this one.
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

PorkRinds

Quote from: PorkRyan on September 18, 2017, 01:09:22 pm
Cole Hedlund vs Adam McFain explain that one.

Hedlund was the better practice kicker.