Jason Heyward traded to........

[Dr. Starcs]

The Cardinals.

For Shelby Miller

Full details here:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/11892064/atlanta-braves-trade-jason-heyward-jordan-walden-st-louis-cardinals-shelby-miller-tyrell-jenkins

[jrulz83]

I think Heyward and Miller are two players in need of a change of scenery. The question I have is will Heyward bring some power to the lineup for the Cardinals, or will he add to the power outage. I think it shapes up as a good deal for everybody, especially if the Cardinals can sign Heyward long term.

[The_Iceman]

Don't overlook the reliever the Cards added as well. A very nice bullpen addition.

I think the Cards will slide Heyward into the 3 spot to replace Holliday, something they have really been wanting to do. Holliday needs to move down.

Carpenter/Wong
Wong/Carpenter
Heyward
Holliday
Adams
Peralta
Molina
Jay

[popcornhog]

Don't overlook the reliever the Cards added as well. A very nice bullpen addition.

I think the Cards will slide Heyward into the 3 spot to replace Holliday, something they have really been wanting to do. Holliday needs to move down.

Carpenter/Wong
Wong/Carpenter
Heyward
Holliday
Adams
Peralta
Molina
Jay

Jay is a guy that can fit into that lineup just about anywhere.

Love the trade for JH. Nothing against Shelby but this is what we needed.

[yraciv]

Wish the Braves got a little more on the back end of the trade so the Cards won the deal, but I think Shelby will be good for us.  Tyrell Jenkins is injury prone and has underperformed so far in the minors. I just don't ever think he'll be a quality player in the show.  Had to get something back though because he is heading toward free agency.  And even if it's a rental for the Cards it's a good deal.  Vaults an already good team to the NL favorite and gave up very little in return.

[ErieHog]

Heyward is a nice pick up, and solves the one year window in RF for the Cardinals that the loss of Taveras would create.

He's what-- about $8 mil this year?  Not ridiculously expensive by any means, and a very solid defender.

You wonder what a guy like Heyward will command in the open market, in Free Agency.   A ton of potential, still yet to be unlocked.

[pigture perfect]

I like this trade. It's a win win, for both sides. If both teams can lock these guys up long term I believe their best ball is ahead of them.

[jrulz83]

Wish the Braves got a little more on the back end of the trade so the Cards won the deal, but I think Shelby will be good for us.  Tyrell Jenkins is injury prone and has underperformed so far in the minors. I just don't ever think he'll be a quality player in the show.  Had to get something back though because he is heading toward free agency.  And even if it's a rental for the Cards it's a good deal.  Vaults an already good team to the NL favorite and gave up very little in return.

I think it's a good deal for all parties. The Cardinals fill two holes with one move, and the Braves picked up some quality starting pitching that they needed.

You can't judge who "won" the deal yet, it depends on how the players perform. Miller has a top of the rotation fastball, he just hasn't figured out his secondary stuff yet, kind of like how Heyward hasn't figured out his offensive game yet. The Braves coveted starting pitching and Tyrell Jenkins reportedly put on a good show in the Arizona Fall League, his value was high after that showing.

[McKdaddy]

I think it's a good deal for all parties. The Cardinals fill two holes with one move, and the Braves picked up some quality starting pitching that they needed.

You can't judge who "won" the deal yet, it depends on how the players perform. Miller has a top of the rotation fastball, he just hasn't figured out his secondary stuff yet, kind of like how Heyward hasn't figured out his offensive game yet. The Braves coveted starting pitching and Tyrell Jenkins reportedly put on a good show in the Arizona Fall League, his value was high after that showing.

Agreed.

[Dr. Starcs]

I'm just surprised the braves didnt give jh to the entitled cards organization for free.

[jrulz83]

I'm just surprised the braves didnt give jh to the entitled cards organization for free.

They should have to, get Bud Selig on the phone. #BFIB

[mhuff]

Well, we needed another bat last year..... perhaps this young man starts to reach his potential. He looks good on the base paths as well. We could use some speed on the bases.... perhaps alleviate the sac bunt some.

[pigture perfect]

We certainly are not as entitled as I thought. The Stanton resigning is getting far more press than this trade. Sheesh! ;-)

[The Boar War]

Like the trade.  Nothing against Shelby but it seems like he needed a change.  Earlier in the season he and Matheny seemed at odds (and supposedly brushed off a couple of signs) so I actually figured he might be gone before the trade deadline.  It looks like C Mart might get the opportunity to win a spot in the starting rotation.  I would like to see more power from Heyward (and if I'm being really picky a rh). 

Overall it's hard to complain about signing one of the best defensive right fielders. 

[gutshot]

Don't know enough about Miller or Jenkins to comment on them other than the hype Miller brought as a prospect. Much like Heyward, it seems he just hasn't ironed out the kinks yet.

With Heyward, you guys will be getting the best base runner in the game and a superb defender. At the plate is where he is so maddening. His OPS is nowhere near where it should be. He has too much size and potential to be such a singles hitter. I hope he has an outstanding walk year, and either Miller or Jenkins becomes a perrenial 19-20 game winner a la Wainwright/ JD Drew.

[McKdaddy]

Bernie's take....

http://t.co/MinM0eYdbc

[bob slydell]

Bad deal if he walks after next season.  Very high price for a one season rental. 

[jrulz83]

Bad deal if he walks after next season.  Very high price for a one season rental.

A major concern for the Cardinals last season was the lack of a solid bat in RF and still they made the NLCS. Mozeliak filled what was a major drag on the offense with Heyward. So, what if the Cardinals make the World Series this season and Heyward walks, bad deal? 

Miller is entering his third season as an MLB starter and he was a one pitch pitcher for the first two, maybe he figures it out in Atlanta and has a great career. I just haven't been impressed by him as much as I was by Marco Gonzalez or Carlos Martinez. I believe Mozeliak thought there was more upside with those two than Miller. Don't discount Jordan Walden and the hole he fills in the bullpen either, that guy has been a solid reliever and should take over Neshek's spot nicely.

I think the Cardinals knew they had to do something in RF and I see Heyward as the perfect player for this organization. It really shows you what they thought of Grichuk and Piscotty in right, but it also buys time for those two to get a little more time to mature as baseball players. There's risk in every trade, but I really think this one minimizes it for the Braves and the Cardinals.

[bob slydell]

A major concern for the Cardinals last season was the lack of a solid bat in RF and still the they made the NLCS. Mozeliak filled what was a major drag on the offense with Heyward. So, what if the Cardinals make the World Series this season and Heyward walks, bad deal? 

Miller is entering his third season as an MLB starter and he was a one pitch pitcher for the first two, maybe he figures it out in Atlanta and has a great career. I just haven't been impressed by him as much as I was by Marco Gonzalez or Carlos Martinez. I believe Mozeliak thought there was more upside with those two than Miller. Don't discount Jordan Walden and the hole he fills in the bullpen either, that guy has been a solid reliever and should take over Neshek's spot nicely.

I think the Cardinals knew they had to do something in RF and I see Heyward as the perfect player for this organization. It really shows you what they thought of Grichuk and Piscotty in right, but it also buys time for those two to get a little more time to mature as baseball players. There's risk in every trade, but I really think this one minimizes it for the Braves and the Cardinals.

He fills a major void if he hits for power.  If he continues to struggle in that area, he won't be that much of an upgrade.  I just think pitching is too valuable a commodity to trade away for one year rentals.  And Shelby is only 24.  To think he will never figure it out, just doesn't make sense.  If Mozeliak was going to trade him away, he could get more than Heyward for him.

[The_Iceman]

If I were the Cardinals, I'd put on the table right now a 5 year, $75 million deal. At 25 years old, and seeing what he has done so far, that is a very safe bet. There is something about the Cardinals that tends to bring out the best in players when they arrive. I think the same with happen with Heyward and $15 a year for him with be a good deal.

[The Boar War]

And Shelby is only 24.  To think he will never figure it out, just doesn't make sense.  If Mozeliak was going to trade him away, he could get more than Heyward for him.

And Gold glover Jason Heyward is only 25.  Couldn't you use the same rationale with him?  I like good pitching as well but you can't really compare their ceilings.

[jrulz83]

He fills a major void if he hits for power.  If he continues to struggle in that area, he won't be that much of an upgrade.  I just think pitching is too valuable a commodity to trade away for one year rentals.  And Shelby is only 24.  To think he will never figure it out, just doesn't make sense.  If Mozeliak was going to trade him away, he could get more than Heyward for him.

Not much of an upgrade if he doesn't hit for power? You do know that Cardinals right fielders combined for a .230 avg, 13 HR, and 78 RBI, they were worth -1.6 WAR, Heyward (primarily out of the leadoff spot) hit .271, 11 HR, and 58 RBI, and was worth a 5.1 WAR. He'll get more opportunities for RBIs in the Cardinals lineup because I suspect he'll be lower in the order than leadoff. That will probably change his approach from on base potential to more of a power approach.

Did I write that Miller would never figure it out? Does anybody think that? Sure, he could figure it out.

I do agree that pitching is an extremely valuable commodity, but if you paid any attention last season you know that the offense stunk it up. The primary drag was in right field, this move should fix that to some degree and if everything works out could fix right field for a few years.

Please tell me what more could Mozeliak get for Miller?

[ucahogfan]

If I were the Cardinals, I'd put on the table right now a 5 year, $75 million deal. At 25 years old, and seeing what he has done so far, that is a very safe bet. There is something about the Cardinals that tends to bring out the best in players when they arrive. I think the same with happen with Heyward and $15 a year for him with be a good deal.

J-Hey will never take 15M a year.  I would think the Braves probably offered a similar deal or even a little more and J-Hey probably turned them down.  He has been worth 24.5 WAR over the last 5 years (according to baseball reference).  That is an average of about 5 WAR per season and based much more on his defense which is the best OF defense in baseball in terms of Defensive Runs Saved and much less on his offensive ability, but the monster potential is there.  1 WAR goes for about 6M on the FA market which means J-Hey stands to make 22.5M.  This year with the Cards will tell us if he gets 200M or more.  If he goes out and hits .280/.400/.500 with 25 HRs and 20+ SBs to go with his defense, he will probably get at least 25M if not closer to 30M/year on the open market.

[ErieHog]

J-Hey will never take 15M a year.  I would think the Braves probably offered a similar deal or even a little more and J-Hey probably turned them down.  He has been worth 24.5 WAR over the last 5 years (according to baseball reference).  That is an average of about 5 WAR per season and based much more on his defense which is the best OF defense in baseball in terms of Defensive Runs Saved and much less on his offensive ability, but the monster potential is there.  1 WAR goes for about 6M on the FA market which means J-Hey stands to make 22.5M.  This year with the Cards will tell us if he gets 200M or more.  If he goes out and hits .280/.400/.500 with 25 HRs and 20+ SBs to go with his defense, he will probably get at least 25M if not closer to 30M/year on the open market.

Yeah.  I'd expect $15M to  be a starting point, not an end point;   he's going to demand Stanton money (Stanton's deal is really 6/$107M before the opt out, with the majority of the $325M backloaded)-  and someone out there will give it to him.

[pigture perfect]

I think $15 would be a minimum starting point. I'm not big on WAR as a stat. But he is an upgrade from what we've had by a long shot. Another thing about his power numbers, is the field dimensions. They will improve because Busch is a little more hitter friendly than Turner. I'm hoping we keep him a long time.

[Dr. Starcs]

^^^^

Only a cards fan would think they could sign jh for $15.

Lol

[jrulz83]

Heyward is claiming the Braves never even seriously approached him on the subject of an extension. He said they talked about it for about 5 minutes, and never discussed figures. He also made the comment that he's, "Looking forward to playing somewhere that he can finally be comfortable."

Cardinals get him for $10 mil per. #discount #BFIB

[The Boar War]

Heyward is claiming the Braves never even seriously approached him on the subject of an extension. He said they talked about it for about 5 minutes, and never discussed figures. He also made the comment that he's, "Looking forward to playing somewhere that he can finally be comfortable."

Cardinals get him for $10 mil per. #discount #BFIB

Apparently the braves are loaded with bad contracts.

[Dropkick]

I think the Braves got the better end of this deal unless STL is able to extend contract with JH

[ucahogfan]

Apparently the braves are loaded with bad contracts.

Well, just Uggla and BJ Upton, but they each make about 15M a year and 30M of a less than 100M payroll is significant.

A team with the tradition and market that the Braves have shouldn't have a payroll of less than 100M and should be more in the 130-150M range.  We would have probably been able to re-sign both JUpton and J-Hey in that situation.

[ucahogfan]

I think the Braves got the better end of this deal unless STL is able to extend contract with JH

I have seen a lot of comparisons of this trade with a another trade that the Braves and Cards made back in 2003.  A certain elite prospect and Brave fan Adam Wainwright was the prized prospect in that trade for JD Drew.

[ucahogfan]

^^^^

Only a cards fan would think they could sign jh for $15.

Lol

Well, this is the same fanbase that thought they had a legit chance of Stanton without offering Tavares.  If the Cards were inquiring about Stanton and offered a package that didn't start with Tavares, the Marlins GM would have hung up mid sentence.

[The Boar War]

Well, just Uggla and BJ Upton, but they each make about 15M a year and 30M of a less than 100M payroll is significant.

A team with the tradition and market that the Braves have shouldn't have a payroll of less than 100M and should be more in the 130-150M range.  We would have probably been able to re-sign both JUpton and J-Hey in that situation.

The problem (as I'm sure you know) is that you're paying Uggla $19 million next year and he's not even in the organization.

[jrulz83]

Apparently the braves are loaded with bad contracts.

Like $10 million per to a closer.....

[jrulz83]

Well, this is the same fanbase that thought they had a legit chance of Stanton without offering Tavares.  If the Cards were inquiring about Stanton and offered a package that didn't start with Tavares, the Marlins GM would have hung up mid sentence.

I think any conversation that didn't start with Ruth would have gotten the phone slam.

[bob slydell]

Not much of an upgrade if he doesn't hit for power? You do know that Cardinals right fielders combined for a .230 avg, 13 HR, and 78 RBI, they were worth -1.6 WAR, Heyward (primarily out of the leadoff spot) hit .271, 11 HR, and 58 RBI, and was worth a 5.1 WAR. He'll get more opportunities for RBIs in the Cardinals lineup because I suspect he'll be lower in the order than leadoff. That will probably change his approach from on base potential to more of a power approach.

Did I write that Miller would never figure it out? Does anybody think that? Sure, he could figure it out.

I do agree that pitching is an extremely valuable commodity, but if you paid any attention last season you know that the offense stunk it up. The primary drag was in right field, this move should fix that to some degree and if everything works out could fix right field for a few years.

Please tell me what more could Mozeliak get for Miller?

He could have gotten Tulo for him last off season.  I just don't see trading a potential #1 starting pitcher for a .270 hitter with 11 HRs. 

"If it works out" isn't very comforting when you consider that working out will require the Cards to overpay the guy to keep him or let him walk and basically give up a potential #1 guy for a marginally improved chance at a WS.  And it's only marginally improved if the other young guys are able to fill Shelby's rotation spot adequately.  There is a chance that won't be the case.  Seems very shortsighted when you factor in the contract situations.

[bob slydell]

And Gold glover Jason Heyward is only 25.  Couldn't you use the same rationale with him?  I like good pitching as well but you can't really compare their ceilings.

Sure you could use the same rationale.  But top of the rotation starting pitchers are much more difficult to come by than corner outfielders.  Plus, in order to keep Heyward after next season, they are going to have to overpay him.  Miller would have been under team control for 4 more years.

[jrulz83]

He could have gotten Tulo for him last off season.  I just don't see trading a potential #1 starting pitcher for a .270 hitter with 11 HRs. 

"If it works out" isn't very comforting when you consider that working out will require the Cards to overpay the guy to keep him or let him walk and basically give up a potential #1 guy for a marginally improved chance at a WS.  And it's only marginally improved if the other young guys are able to fill Shelby's rotation spot adequately.  There is a chance that won't be the case.  Seems very shortsighted when you factor in the contract situations.

I disagree with the bold sentiment, and there are well informed people on here who will vehemently disagree.

2015 is going to be a really good shot for the Cardinals, and Heyward enhances their opportunity by being a large upgrade over internal options. After 2015 things in the NL Central are going to change mightily. The way things are looking, the Cubs are (unfortunately) going to move out of the cellar in a big way starting in 2016.

Taveras getting drunk and getting behind the wheel changed the whole offseason outlook for the Cardinals. He was going to be your opening day right fielder, he was going to be the face of the franchise for years to come. The internal options are less than appetizing on an everyday basis at this point in their careers. If you start Grichuk he's going to strike out %40 of the time, Piscotty has hit for about as much power as a utility player and I get the feeling some bloom has come off his rose because of it. 2015 is a big year for him as a prospect, he has to show some pop if he is going to be a Major League corner outfielder.

Can you define what you consider overpaying for Heyward to stay would be?

[bob slydell]

I disagree with the bold sentiment, and there are well informed people on here who will vehemently disagree.

2015 is going to be a really good shot for the Cardinals, and Heyward enhances their opportunity by being a large upgrade over internal options. After 2015 things in the NL Central are going to change mightily. The way things are looking, the Cubs are (unfortunately) going to move out of the cellar in a big way starting in 2016.

Taveras getting drunk and getting behind the wheel changed the whole offseason outlook for the Cardinals. He was going to be your opening day right fielder, he was going to be the face of the franchise for years to come. The internal options are less than appetizing on an everyday basis at this point in their careers. If you start Grichuk he's going to strike out %40 of the time, Piscotty has hit for about as much power as a utility player and I get the feeling some bloom has come off his rose because of it. 2015 is a big year for him as a prospect, he has to show some pop if he is going to be a Major League corner outfielder.

Can you define what you consider overpaying for Heyward to stay would be?

I've read where Mozeliak might be in the Lester sweepstakes.  That would explain why he would be willing to part with Shelby.  Doesn't sound like a move the Cards would make, so not sure how true it is.

I really hope Heyward proves me wrong and lives up to his potential.  I just want the Cards to win.

[The Boar War]

I've read where Mozeliak might be in the Lester sweepstakes.  That would explain why he would be willing to part with Shelby.  Doesn't sound like a move the Cards would make, so not sure how true it is.

I really hope Heyward proves me wrong and lives up to his potential.  I just want the Cards to win.

I think there's some genuine interest but I would be shocked if we got in a bidding war for Lester (somewhere around 7/$20m+ per year). 

I think the Heyward trade sticks out because for years Mo was able to address needs without giving up the farm.  Unfortunately one of the key pieces to the  farm was taken away.  So a domino effect had to take place.  I would rather us deal from a position of strength to address our needs.  Martinez or Gonzales takes Shelby's starts and we move forward.  I think everyone would have liked to go ahead with Miller and OT in right field.  But Miller and Grichuk is not as good as C Mart and Heyward.

[jrulz83]

I've read where Mozeliak might be in the Lester sweepstakes.  That would explain why he would be willing to part with Shelby.  Doesn't sound like a move the Cards would make, so not sure how true it is.

I really hope Heyward proves me wrong and lives up to his potential.  I just want the Cards to win.

I think the Lester stuff is rumor based on myth, I do like the theory that the Cardinals are trying to make the Cubs overpay for him though. Hehe.

I don't know though, baseball has changed in regard to what teams are willing to do and pay. Historically there's no way the Cardinals pursue something like a Lester deal, but they have been touting their ability to expand payroll in the coming years.....

[mhuff]

A major concern for the Cardinals last season was the lack of a solid bat in RF and still they made the NLCS. Mozeliak filled what was a major drag on the offense with Heyward. So, what if the Cardinals make the World Series this season and Heyward walks, bad deal? 

Miller is entering his third season as an MLB starter and he was a one pitch pitcher for the first two, maybe he figures it out in Atlanta and has a great career. I just haven't been impressed by him as much as I was by Marco Gonzalez or Carlos Martinez. I believe Mozeliak thought there was more upside with those two than Miller. Don't discount Jordan Walden and the hole he fills in the bullpen either, that guy has been a solid reliever and should take over Neshek's spot nicely.

I think the Cardinals knew they had to do something in RF and I see Heyward as the perfect player for this organization. It really shows you what they thought of Grichuk and Piscotty in right, but it also buys time for those two to get a little more time to mature as baseball players. There's risk in every trade, but I really think this one minimizes it for the Braves and the Cardinals.

[jbell96]

Cardinals took a big risk giving up Shelby and Jenkins for Heyward, since JH is in a contract year, but it Mo felt it was a necessary risk in light of the Taveras tragedy. Heyward's defense alone makes him a huge upgrade in RF. And Walden will help add some depth in the bullpen since we're most likely to lose Neshek in free agency.

Just my opinion, but I'd like to see him hit 2nd and fill a role similar to that of Beltran. Would be nice to have some sort of power threat in the 2 hole. I love Jay, but he's a singles hitter. We had way too much station to station offense last year. If he doesn't hit 2nd, I could see him hitting 5th or 6th, depending on who else is in the lineup.

[jrulz83]

From Derrick Goold's chat:

Dave Cameron suggest it will take at least $200 million to lockup Heyward. Can you see the Cards going into these waters? They have the payroll to do so, right? Thanks
by John November 18 at 12:49 PM

I don't believe it will take that much.
by Derrick Goold November 18 at 12:49 PM

The reasoning I see behind that is Heyward's WAR value is based on his defense and not his offense and teams don't value defense as highly as power bats. This will be interesting to watch play out.

[bob slydell]

Looks like Matheny is going to give up #22.  http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/why-heyward-will-wear-no-for-cardinals/article_121d0cb6-e281-5e7a-8d5d-280fad983cdb.html

[jbell96]

Lester is meeting with the Cardinals next week, hopefully that goes well.

[GolfNut57]

Lester is meeting with the Cardinals next week, hopefully that goes well.

Cardinals are a LONG shot to get Lester. It will go down to between the Cubs and Red Sox. Unless the Yanks get involved. So far they've shown little interest.

[jbell96]

Cardinals are a LONG shot to get Lester. It will go down to between the Cubs and Red Sox. Unless the Yanks get involved. So far they've shown little interest.

Cards are a bit of a long shot, but you never know.