Should guys that go undrafted be allowed to return to college?

[Seebs]

No. The ability to allow any leverage from college players would be frowned upon. This would provide leverage.

[Hog Nutt]

What would you do with the kids you signed to take their places?  Say sorry guys but so and so changed his mind and we just don't have room for you now?

Sometimes being an adult bites but you just have to live with your choices.

exactly.

[k.c.hawg]

The NFL and NCAA are both exactly where they want to be with their time lines. One and done or two and done would be a disaster for college football. The NFL doesn't want high school kids, the NFL prefers to have 3 years of maturation and 3 years of tape on kids before they are eligible for the draft. The NCAA would probably like underclassmen to not be eligible for the draft but are willing to sit firm as it is. Their trump card is, if the NFL tries to cut it down to being eligible after freshman or sophmore year for the draft the NCAA can easily say said players can come back if they don't like their draft position. I think it is a good balance that is probably more favorable to the NFL. I like the mlb/college baseball rule but it just isn't applicable for football. I hate the college basketball rule. The NBA owns the NCAA in college basketball.

[GuvHog]

Ha your the one that said a 15 year old should be able to choose I was just going overboard the other way.  I'll say I have the high ground as to what's "best".  I would bet very few parents want their 15 year old son in the NFL.

Not only that but leagues like that would destroy High School football. I don't see that happening.

[westside_player]

no. then they would all declare early

[Atlhogfan1]

No.  A better developmental league perhaps should be created than the current AFL and CFL routes.  Practice squad spots help a little. 

3 years out of high school are required which is plenty of time for these "kids" to do some maturing.  2.5 years of classes including summers to work towards a degree.  Millions of people never go to college let alone finish.  The NFL is a real world business.  If they can't make it whether through the draft, FA opportunity, practice squad, arena league, CFL, semi pro, whatever, ... then it is time to move on with life.  Get a job or go back and finish the degree. 

Perhaps if they could come up with some system where the players are allowed to return and finish their degrees on scholarship IF their NFL eval's suggested they may were going to be drafted and weren't. Not have them count against the 85. 

[Inhogswetrust]

Or just do what best and require a college degree like a lot of companies do.  Doesn't that solve the problem just as well as removing all restrictions and at the same time serve the majority of the players better after their playing days are over.

Most companies usually do not require a college degree for jobs that entail mostly physical labor or for entertainers unless there are some safety, medical or code issues involved. Let's face it football players are entertainers that primarily does physical labor.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Most companies usually do not require a college degree for jobs that entail mostly physical labor or for entertainers unless there are some safety, medical or code issues involved. Let's face it football players are entertainers that primarily does physical labor.

But at the same time the NFL already has its standards.  It's really is their choice, and I guess what we have works it just doesn't alway work the way a 20 year old mind wants it to work.  I'm 58 and things still do work the way a want them too! LOL

[Hugo Bezdek]

What is your opinion on this?

I think the NCAA needs to completely rethink the amateurism model. There's no reason to keep an adult from making a living, and if they're going to school and making progress toward a degree what else really matters (within the boundaries of the law)?

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/07/the-olympics-show-why-college-sports-should-give-up-on-amateurism/260275/

[Hawghiggs]

There are not any 18 year old kids that are ready for the NFL. Throughout history you might be able to find enough to fill up both hands but I highly doubt it. Many college All Americans aren't ready for the NFL. This isn't baseball, this isn't basketball. It is a brutal sport that an 18 year old cannot stand up to. My mistake I thought you meant like the high school baseball draft. I've contended all along that college should let the one and done's and 2 year guys come back in basketball....I don't see letting 3rd year guys come back, the extra year will make very little difference in draft position if not hurt it.

Although that may be true. But an 18 year old could set on a practice squad for the Dallas Cowboys and get great coaching. All the while making a living.

[bphi11ips]

Players should be allowed to declare with or without an agent and return unless they're drafted.  Once drafted they can't return or enter a new draft. That all but eliminates the NFL's concern that a draft pick won't sign. 

On the college side, how is the team harmed if Denver Kirkland returns?  He missed Spring practice?  Right.  Think Bret Bielema would take him back?

It's time to stop this charade. 

[PorkSoda]

Players should be allowed to declare with or without an agent and return unless they're drafted.  Once drafted they can't return or enter a new draft. That all but eliminates the NFL's concern that a draft pick won't sign. 

On the college side, how is the team harmed if Denver Kirkland returns?  He missed Spring practice?  Right.  Think Bret Bielema would take him back?

It's time to stop this charade. 

I agree, but they should have to maintain their academic eligibility. 

[bphi11ips]

I agree, but they should have to maintain their academic eligibility. 

Absolutely.

[BearsBisonsBoars]

I think the NCAA needs to completely rethink the amateurism model. There's no reason to keep an adult from making a living, and if they're going to school and making progress toward a degree what else really matters (within the boundaries of the law)?

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/07/the-olympics-show-why-college-sports-should-give-up-on-amateurism/260275/

How does BYU or TCU compete with USC or Texas in amount they can afford to pay? Paying the players destroys what competitive parity we currently enjoy.

Besides, they are already receiving a free education (if they take it). I'm still paying off my student loans. Best believe I would have done any kind of athletics for no other reason  other than to avoid them.

[Hugo Bezdek]

I don't think universities should be in the business of paying players. I think they should be allowed to sign with agents, enter the draft, make endorsement deals, or even take a signing bonus if the team drafting them is willing to let them stay in school. Let's just put all above board. And if they want to go to college and get a degree by honest means, let them play.

[rzrbackramsfan]

Players should be allowed to declare with or without an agent and return unless they're drafted.  Once drafted they can't return or enter a new draft. That all but eliminates the NFL's concern that a draft pick won't sign. 

On the college side, how is the team harmed if Denver Kirkland returns?  He missed Spring practice?  Right.  Think Bret Bielema would take him back?

It's time to stop this charade.

[Inhogswetrust]

I think the NCAA needs to completely rethink the amateurism model. There's no reason to keep an adult from making a living, and if they're going to school and making progress toward a degree what else really matters (within the boundaries of the law)?

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/07/the-olympics-show-why-college-sports-should-give-up-on-amateurism/260275/

If you think that NCAA and pro football sports are corrupt you should try the olympic model.  Using the olympics as a model to copy is crazy.

[Pigsknuckles]

A university makes a huge investment in a student athlete. Lets not parse the "student athlete term here". That's another thread. The university does this with the hope of a certain term of service. In return, the university provides scholarship athletes paid access to valuable educational opportunities, and other benefits. Though a recruiting plus, the primary purpose of the university is not to prepare a player for a pro athletic career, but to utilize that players skills to benefit the university. If a player is able to elevate their skills such they become attractive at the pro level, then that is a collateral benefit. I believe that if a player takes advantage of the training and preparation offered by a college program, and decides to leave prior to the expiration of their eligibility, then they diminish the return a university reasonably expects for it's investment. So no to returning if not drafted. You roll the dice, and take your chances. However, would it not be reasonable for the university to recover some of that unrealized investment return if a player leaves early, and is drafted? A pro agent charges a player a certain percentage of their salary for the service he provides. Why not the university? If a player had to pay back to the university a percentage of their pro income for a period of time equal to what would have been their remaining term of college eligibility, it may motivate a player to remain with the university. Draconian? Probably. Legal? Likely not. Moral? Questionable. The current system does not promote much institutional loyalty to a player who may only provide a couple of years of quality field contribution. Just spit-balling here, and looking for a fair compromise for both the player and university.

[code red]

No......when the agent is hired it should be over.

[Inhogswetrust]

How does BYU or TCU compete with USC or Texas in amount they can afford to pay? Paying the players destroys what competitive parity we currently enjoy.

Besides, they are already receiving a free education (if they take it). I'm still paying off my student loans. Best believe I would have done any kind of athletics for no other reason  other than to avoid them.

BYU and TCU would call it a tythe and simply pass the collection plate...............

[code red]

Players should be allowed to declare with or without an agent and return unless they're drafted.  Once drafted they can't return or enter a new draft. That all but eliminates the NFL's concern that a draft pick won't sign. 

On the college side, how is the team harmed if Denver Kirkland returns?  He missed Spring practice?  Right.  Think Bret Bielema would take him back?

It's time to stop this charade. 

Agree...but who in their right mind wouldn't hire an agent?  These kids are good enough to get paid...even Kirkland.

[bphi11ips]

No......when the agent is hired it should be over.

Why? 

My clients hire agents of all types all the time.  Professional sports agents almost always work on a contingent basis.  NFL agents are highly regulated, and their commissions are subject to caps.  When a college football player hires an agent, all he really agrees to is that the agent will be his exclusive agent for certain purposes and that he will get paid when the athlete gets paid based upon the athlete's compensation.

Why should hiring and agent be the jumping off point from amateur to professional status?  Shouldn't a player be in better position to make sound decisions if they are made with the advice of an experienced agent? 

I'll suggest that the logical point of no return for a college football is when he gets paid to play.  That's a pretty transparent standard. 

[Atlhogfan1]

There needs to be some kind of limit IMO on the return if not drafted in terms of using college to leverage UFA contracts.  Set a date like a week or two after the Draft for players to decide to accept a FA contract or return.  Maybe have the NFL agree all UFA first offers go out by a certain date before this deadline in order to even the leverage.  The academic side must be addressed too as already stated.  If a player thinks they may come back, they can't blow off the Spring semester.  This may hamper them though in preparing for scouts. 

[bphi11ips]

There needs to be some kind of limit IMO on the return if not drafted in terms of using college to leverage UFA contracts.  Set a date like a week or two after the Draft for players to decide to accept a FA contract or return.  Maybe have the NFL agree all UFA first offers go out by a certain date before this deadline in order to even the leverage.  The academic side must be addressed too as already stated.  If a player thinks they may come back, they can't blow off the Spring semester.  This may hamper them though in preparing for scouts. 

Good idea.

P.S. - players eligible to enter the draft should be able to skip Spring semester and remain eligible for scholarship in the Fall if they are undrafted and want to return.  Other scholarship football players can take time off and return to scholarship.  The decision whether to take the player back should be up to the school, e.g., as is currently the situation with Ramsey.  All factors with respect to scholarship limits should remain in play.  That would complicate matters for coaches on signing day, but if you think a Kirkland might be back, maybe you hold a scholarship. 

[Svrdhd]

College athletes at a P5 school have resources available to them that the average student will never have access to. Advisors, tutors, counseling are thrown at them to mantain the program's APR or whatever it's called. Bluntly, many won't be able to finish their degree without the hand-holding.
  QB's and RB's have a limited shelf life, leaving early for a high pick makes tons of sense.   Leaving early for a projected low pick is devastating in my mind, but you can't save everyone. I say don't allow them to come back, allow that roster spot to be filled with someone who at least has the potential to make better life decisions.

[bphi11ips]

College athletes at a P5 school have resources available to them that the average student will never have access to. Advisors, tutors, counseling are thrown at them to mantain the program's APR or whatever it's called. Bluntly, many won't be able to finish their degree without the hand-holding.
  QB's and RB's have a limited shelf life, leaving early for a high pick makes tons of sense.   Leaving early for a projected low pick is devastating in my mind, but you can't save everyone. I say don't allow them to come back, allow that roster spot to be filled with someone who at least has the potential to make better life decisions.

That's pretty harsh.  To get to Kirkland's level requires a life devoted to football.  What harm is there in allowing him to test the water?  If he gets drafted or signs as a free agent, he should be gone.  But he doesn't know what's going to happen.  Why punish him and his team if he guesses wrong?

[Svrdhd]

Not picking on Kirkland, because he could be really sharp, I don't know him. But how many young men from his background are attending college to actually learn, if they even enroll at all? He was at a good school with a huge support network, tons of fans, and probably business opportunities from Arkansas businesses.
  My dad died unexpectedly at 43 in my senior year of high school. I was valedictorian and the first in my family to even consider college. Life is tough. I wavered myself if I should or could attend college. My family really suffered because I did choose to attend college and largely abandon them for 4.5 years. Leaving college early for a low/no pick is a critical error for many if not most. I think it was a bad gamble for quick money and other athletes shouldn't be denied his spot on the roster.

[DOGALUM]

No. 

Decisions have consequences.....good and bad.  Taking away those consequences teaches them nothing.  (though that seems to be the trend in this country these days)

[code red]

Why? 

My clients hire agents of all types all the time.  Professional sports agents almost always work on a contingent basis.  NFL agents are highly regulated, and their commissions are subject to caps.  When a college football player hires an agent, all he really agrees to is that the agent will be his exclusive agent for certain purposes and that he will get paid when the athlete gets paid based upon the athlete's compensation.

Why should hiring and agent be the jumping off point from amateur to professional status?  Shouldn't a player be in better position to make sound decisions if they are made with the advice of an experienced agent? 

I'll suggest that the logical point of no return for a college football is when he gets paid to play.  That's a pretty transparent standard. 

IDK the ins and outs of agents.  All I know and many of us here know, is that that the hiring of an agent corresponds most often...with money...on one side or the other.  I am not  a proponent of paying players or letting them make the rules.  If you don't wanta be here...we will find a replacement.

[gawntrail]

Yes.  No agent hired. 
No.  Should be evaluated in two categories.... Round1/2 or Field.  If a kid gets a field grade and declares, then too bad. 
Regardless, right now I also think anybody short of their degree should be mandated to meet with an NFL position scout, their College HC, and a certified financial advisor to go through a thorough evaluation of the kid's complete picture and options.  Too many are getting sold on bad advice and getting buzz-sawed so everyone else can get a piece. 

[PorkSoda]

No. 

Decisions have consequences.....good and bad.  Taking away those consequences teaches them nothing.  (though that seems to be the trend in this country these days)

yeah lets punish them for being chewed up and spit out by the system.

[PorkSoda]

other athletes shouldn't be denied his spot on the roster.

this is a good point, but what if they just did away with declaring in the first place.  let the NFL draft from the entire pool of juniors and seniors and if a kid gets drafted, then they can choose to accept a contract or stay in school.

[Murr]

I would be fine with the kids returning back to college if they couldn't make a roster spot.  They would have to sit out a year, which they could use to train and study.  I think this new rule/idea should apply to basketball kids as well.

[PorkSoda]

I would be fine with the kids returning back to college if they couldn't make a roster spot.  They would have to sit out a year, which they could use to train and study.  I think this new rule/idea should apply to basketball kids as well.

not a bad idea.  that would take care of some of the timing issues regarding recruiting and scholarship limits.

though it runs the potential problem of encouraging more kids to leave early for the draft.

also whether they would return to the same school or the school of their choice.

If they have to return to the same school, then what if the school doesn't want them back or doesn't have room for them.

If they can return to any school, then schools could stock up on 1 and done for former draftees.

at which point, would they be able to reenter the draft? essentially giving them 2 shots at the draft?

[Fatty McGee]

Change the scholarship rules where you can keep them, they get an extra year of eligibility in addition to RS, but they can't play or practice with the team that year.

And if they want to jump, they can without having to sit a year as long as they jump before summer practice starts.

Great idea.

[Pork Twain]

No, but I do wish they had a rule similar to the new NBA rule

[code red]

yeah lets punish them for being chewed up and spit out by the system.

Just a question.  Do you think CBB informed all of those players of the consequences of declaring for the draft?

[longpig]

What is your opinion on this?

definitely not

[Biggus Piggus]

One problem with this is that guys who go early usually do not stay in school. Kirkland would be academically ineligible for next season, most likely.

Another problem would be that hordes more players would give it a go + end up undrafted and academically ineligible.

[PorkSoda]

One problem with this is that guys who go early usually do not stay in school. Kirkland would be academically ineligible for next season, most likely.

Another problem would be that hordes more players would give it a go + end up undrafted and academically ineligible.

which is why I think they should have to remain academically eligible.

in baseball guys get drafted right out of high school, but they are allowed to turn that down and attend college.

In my scenario, the kid would stay in school and maintain eligibility, but if they got drafted they would be able to decide to go or stay.

not a lot of teams will waste a draft pick on a kid who might not come, but if a junior really is all that, then they get that chance without having to risk trusting scouts and agents that may just be blowing smoke.

[PorkSoda]

Just a question.  Do you think CBB informed all of those players of the consequences of declaring for the draft?

and of course he does.  but then you got a guy like kirkland who everyone expected to go early since he stepped on campus, but it turns out he wasn't ready.

sure its tough luck.  but in an ideal world these guys should at least be able to come back and finish their degree, even if they are no longer eligible for football. 

[code red]

which is why I think they should have to remain academically eligible.

in baseball guys get drafted right out of high school, but they are allowed to turn that down and attend college.

In my scenario, the kid would stay in school and maintain eligibility, but if they got drafted they would be able to decide to go or stay.

not a lot of teams will waste a draft pick on a kid who might not come, but if a junior really is all that, then they get that chance without having to risk trusting scouts and agents that may just be blowing smoke.

So I guess we should ask.....are the draft grades fairly accurate that these kids receive?  I think they are.....at that point a decision is made.  Reality is once you declare you have made a decision for yourself.  You made a decision to be committed as a professional.

[Inhogswetrust]

yeah lets punish them for being chewed up and spit out by the system.

Not even close. Being chewed up and spit out is the opposite of them quitting the system knowing the possible outcomes both good and bad of doing so......................

[PorkSoda]

So I guess we should ask.....are the draft grades fairly accurate that these kids receive?  I think they are.....at that point a decision is made.  Reality is once you declare you have made a decision for yourself.  You made a decision to be committed as a professional.

I get that, and that's fine.  just saying it wouldn't hurt my feelings if there was a way for guys that didn't make the cut to complete their degree.  however there is a good chance that a lot of those guys weren't particularly interested in a degree either.  which in itself is a bit strange to me because growing up sports were a way to get a degree.  playing professionally would be akin to winning the lottery.  for most people that is not going to happen.

[code red]

I get that, and that's fine.  just saying it wouldn't hurt my feelings if there was a way for guys that didn't make the cut to complete their degree.  however there is a good chance that a lot of those guys weren't particularly interested in a degree either.  which in itself is a bit strange to me because growing up sports were a way to get a degree.  playing professionally would be akin to winning the lottery.  for most people that is not going to happen.

And I can agree that it is a dog eat dog world and I am sure some of these kids are influenced by family etc to make that jump and they aren't ready.  That's the part that stinks.

[DeltaBoy]

What is your opinion on this?

If they not taken any money or hired an agent then YES.

[PorkSoda]

And I can agree that it is a dog eat dog world

in the end, that's reality.  If I decide to change jobs for what I see as a better opportunity and it doesnt work out.  my previous employer is under no obligation to take me back.  Risk and consequences are part of life. 

[Artex501]

Was talking about this the other day with my dad, my suggestion: One year to play one, but it has to be at a FCS school, this wont give much more draft stock to the prospect, (mainly just more film that shows they can correct bad techniques, stay healthy, stay out of trouble,blah blah blah) but it would allow the player to earn his degree; plus I think it would give FCS teams a slight boost in sales and of course an added boost to the level of play. Competition gets better in lower division schools, and a player can still earn his degree (in a classroom setting which most students need) and someone who isn't drafted and doesn't want to hope the practice squad works out gets to continue to play football for one more year at least... just an idea

Oh and after a few years if the trend of JRs leaving keeps growing these FCS schools will be good enough to where ESPN can add another channel "ESPNUII" for instance?

[rzrbackramsfan]

I love how Bielema actually called whoever had kiper as the number one guard and was like, "what are you doing?!?!?"

[bphi11ips]

which is why I think they should have to remain academically eligible.

in baseball guys get drafted right out of high school, but they are allowed to turn that down and attend college.

In my scenario, the kid would stay in school and maintain eligibility, but if they got drafted they would be able to decide to go or stay.

not a lot of teams will waste a draft pick on a kid who might not come, but if a junior really is all that, then they get that chance without having to risk trusting scouts and agents that may just be blowing smoke.

Can anyone offer a rational basis for having different rules for different college sports? 

Is the amateur/professional distinction still the dividing line between being college eligible or disqualified?

In general, do the rules favor the athlete, the colleges, or the professionals?