How anyone could watch many of the games Sat and not see a huge talent gap

[PorkRinds]

There is a huge talent gap between the following 5 teams and the rest of college football.

Alabama
Clemson
Miami (FL)
Oklahoma  (that will change next season with Mayfield gone; he makes that team click)
Auburn

So, really not a surprise that the rest of college football is not towards the top of the polls.

One player does not change the entire talent gap at OU. Mayfield is good but he isn't that good.

[Dumb ole famrboy]

This team reminds me so much of 2013. No difference makers on either side of the ball.

Are you kidding me - you don't see any difference makers in this group.
DE:
1) Chris Smith (6-3, 270, Sr.)
2) Brandon Lewis (6-5, 260, RFr.)
OR
JaMichael Winston (6-5, 262, RFr.)
DT:
1) Robert Thomas (6-3, 325, Sr.)
2) Demarcus Hodge (6-1, 345, So.)
DT:
1) Byran Jones (6-2, 318, Sr.)
2) Darius Philon (6-3, 300, RFr.)
DE:
1) Trey Flowers (6-4, 265, Jr.)
2) Deatrich Wise Jr. (6-6, 275, RFr.)
SLB:
1) Braylon Mitchell (6-3, 230, Jr.)
2) Martrell Spaight (6-0, 226, Jr.)
MLB:
1) Austin Jones (6-2, 237, Sr.)
2) Brooks Ellis (6-2, 230, Fr.)
WLB:
1) Jarrett Lake (6-3, 235, Sr.)
2) Daunte Carr (6-3, 235, Sr.)

Difference makers make no difference if you don't properly exploit them.

[Sow Lancelot]

Talent wise this was a middle of the pack sec team.  About like USCe, MSU or A&M.  Coaching wise we're on the same level as tenner and Florida.

You mean, without a coach?

[LZH]

I don't recall who it was, but I believe it was a sports writer who posted on here at the beginning of BP's third year, that when Arkansas gets off the bus they "finally look like an SEC team." When I mentioned that at the beginning of BB's tenure because so many people were harping about how much BP's teams were too 'finesse', and with BB we are going to be so much bigger and tougher etc., 90% of the people on this board said I was crazy...... that I was just saying that because I didn't like BB.

Well what are we saying now?

[ChicoHog]

Gary Danielson said on the 247 podcast last week that when he did the TCU-Arkansas game in September he thought our receivers were below SEC talent level and we did not have enough quality defensive players at all levels.  Also said our O-line did not perform which we all knew.  Talent almost always beats scheme over the long haul.  I still want BB gone as he is not getting it done but there is no way we have close to the talent level of the upper echelon SEC teams.  We'll find out in the next year or two when we see how many guys play in the NFL.  I think very few. 

[hogsanity]

Talent almost always beats scheme over the long haul.

Which is why the theory of hiring a coach that can scheme around the talent issue is so flawed. He might do it once a season, maybe even twice, but when you face 4-6 teams, minimum, a season that consistently recruit better talent than you do you are going to lose a lot of games.

[Con el Cerdos]

to my eyes the gap is lack of swagger, effort and execution.

Maybe you see with slow eyes.

[Con el Cerdos]

On defense, our players are not allowed to play fast.  On offense, our best playmakers don't see the field.

I'm starting to think that Bielema actually doesn't like chunk plays and would rather see us grind it out than take a long one to the house.  It's a crazy thought I know.  But everyone who seems like a difference maker doesn't see the field.

I think you are giving Bielema to much credit as a thinker.  (him not you as a thinker)

[PorkSoda]

we have talented players, we don't have talented coaches. 

That much is obvious.  the players deserve better. 

[31to6]

He's a good player, and he's Arkansas's best LB by leaps and bounds but not sure he'd start at this point for any team but Bama (actually, with their injuries, he might start now for Bama). When LSU didn't have any LBs coming up, which was the case (and why they had to move Devin White immediately from RB to LB), why did they not offer Scoota at LB?

LSU staff had White slotted as a LB from day one. They just had to give it enough time for him to think it was his idea....

[hogsanity]

we have talented players, we don't have talented coaches. 

That much is obvious.  the players deserve better. 

It is not, nor ever has been that the Hogs do not have talented players. It is that while Arkansas may have 10, the rest of the league has 15, 20, 30.

I asked this question after the TCU game and I will ask it again. How many on the AR 2 deep on both sides of the ball would start for any other SEC team other than Vandy and KY? At the time I first asked, I said Ragnow would start for anyone. AA would start for Fla, LSU, Vandy, SC, and A&M. Agim would start for just about anyone. Tolliver would start for a few teams. Who else?

[jackflash]

The way Miss State use their QB is  the biggest difference here. If you can  stop there QB you have a chance to beat them

[Piggfoot]

It is not, nor ever has been that the Hogs do not have talented players. It is that while Arkansas may have 10, the rest of the league has 15, 20, 30.

I asked this question after the TCU game and I will ask it again. How many on the AR 2 deep on both sides of the ball would start for any other SEC team other than Vandy and KY? At the time I first asked, I said Ragnow would start for anyone. AA would start for Fla, LSU, Vandy, SC, and A&M. Agim would start for just about anyone. Tolliver would start for a few teams. Who else?

So many people on Hogville have a problem understanding this fact. Hogville policy itself has conditioned the posters not to blame players so it is easier to blame the coaches for Arkansas' problems.
It has been reported the players are for the most part loyal and supportive of the coaching staff. They recognize the losses are not all on the coaches.
If you want to blame the coaches for their lack of recruiting then the whole state must shoulder some of the blame for not producing enough quality players.

[tbhogfan]

between the "top" teams and the Hogs is beyond me. Sat was only the 2nd Sat I have got to watch a ton of college football, and after doing so it I am amazed at the physical difference between the top teams and the Hogs. You can just look at them and see it, before the ball is eve snapped. Many teams have lb's that are faster than the Hogs rbs. They have rb's bigger than our lbs. They have wr's 5 inches taller and that are also faster than our db's, and they have db's bigger and faster than our wr's.

Where are they getting these athletes, and why can't we at least get some like that? Those are the two questions a new coach has to answer pronto, because no one is going to scheme around that game after game after game.

I see a coaching gap more than anything.  There are lots of coaches who could win with the athletes we have right now. 

[PorkSoda]

So many people on Hogville have a problem understanding this fact. Hogville policy itself has conditioned the posters not to blame players so it is easier to blame the coaches for Arkansas' problems.
It has been reported the players are for the most part loyal and supportive of the coaching staff. They recognize the losses are not all on the coaches.
If you want to blame the coaches for their lack of recruiting then the whole state must shoulder some of the blame for not producing enough quality players.

look we usually recruit in the top 20-30s  but our offense and defense are ranked in the 90s.

half the SEC may have better recruiting than we do, but that does not explain why our team is playing so poorly.

if we had a top 20-30 offense/defense to match our recruiting then coaching wouldn't be the problem.

we aren't even close, so I don't want to here crap about talent until our team is playing at least to the level of our recruiting rankings.

[Tejano Jawg]

While I'm not confident in our coaching staff's ability to develop players, I'd have to think that if we had someone elite, on either side of the ball, they would have come through by now. That is, unless the player is a freshman. I just think a big-time player couldn't be held back, even by this staff. That being said, I believe we do have some good players. The problem is--they're not surrounded by other good players. Every game I pretty much watch us get manhandled.

On a positive note, maybe there's more here than it appears--for the next coaching staff. Holtz' first team won 5 games the year before. Nutt's first team only won 4 the year before.

One problem is we never seem to have all the pieces at once. SR qb, young wrs and ol. veteran ol, new qb and new backs. Solid Dl, nothing at Lb or Db, good db's and the dl is weak or young or both. That is what happens when you never have quality depth.

These are big issues. And must be improved by the new coaching staff. As 'Sanity points out, there's always an ebb and flow of talent, and things don't line up often. Unfortunately for Austin, his senior year and he's surrounded by some of our worst o-line play and young, inexperienced receivers (mostly). Don't think we knew how bad that combination would be.

Another example, I still think we have good running backs, but who can possibly know? I felt good about them before the season, but I also was worried about the loss of Rawleigh. Given how our o-line performed this year, that's another question we can't answer. How would RWIII have done this season?

The SEC really makes your talent deficiency on defense stand out. And I think we've seen some occasional sparks there...Santos Ramirez and Kevin Richardson when they make things happen and turn the ball over. But those are few and far between. Our D can't sustain anything for long. If we don't make big plays there, we're just not strong enough to hang in the game.

[Piggfoot]

look we usually recruit in the top 20-30s  but our offense and defense are ranked in the 90s.

half the SEC may have better recruiting than we do, but that does not explain why our team is playing so poorly.

if we had a top 20-30 offense/defense to match our recruiting then coaching wouldn't be the problem.

we aren't even close, so I don't want to here crap about talent until our team is playing at least to the level of our recruiting rankings.

It is a combination of things. Arkansas plays the toughest schedule in college football. We've been near the bottom in SEC recruiting the last few years. So yes you can can blame our coaches for not getting better players but blame the State for not producing them. Story is a good example he was said to be a 5* by NWA evaluators/sports writers but he can't get on the field and as poor a football expert as I am I can see if a player can play or not. I understand coaches giving him a shot because fans and sportswriters would give them hell for not giving an Arkansas boy a shot. We have more Arkansas recruits on our team than Bama has Bama recruits on their team. Unfortunately we can't reach out to Timbuktu and have 5*s begging to play for us.

[NYCRBACK]

between the "top" teams and the Hogs is beyond me. Sat was only the 2nd Sat I have got to watch a ton of college football, and after doing so it I am amazed at the physical difference between the top teams and the Hogs. You can just look at them and see it, before the ball is eve snapped. Many teams have lb's that are faster than the Hogs rbs. They have rb's bigger than our lbs. They have wr's 5 inches taller and that are also faster than our db's, and they have db's bigger and faster than our wr's.

Where are they getting these athletes, and why can't we at least get some like that? Those are the two questions a new coach has to answer pronto, because no one is going to scheme around that game after game after game.

Yep and no doubt. We are trying to compete with "uncommon" men....

[cjack]

look we usually recruit in the top 20-30s  but our offense and defense are ranked in the 90s.

half the SEC may have better recruiting than we do, but that does not explain why our team is playing so poorly.

if we had a top 20-30 offense/defense to match our recruiting then coaching wouldn't be the problem.

we aren't even close, so I don't want to here crap about talent until our team is playing at least to the level of our recruiting rankings.

Exactly.  We recruit in the top 25 and once we start playing in the top 25, there will be much less complaining.  You can't use recruiting rankings to say certain teams are good, but then discount our recruiting rank.

[PorkSoda]

It is a combination of things. Arkansas plays the toughest schedule in college football. We've been near the bottom in SEC recruiting the last few years. So yes you can can blame our coaches for not getting better players but blame the State for not producing them. Story is a good example he was said to be a 5* by NWA evaluators/sports writers but he can't get on the field and as poor a football expert as I am I can see if a player can play or not. I understand coaches giving him a shot because fans and sportswriters would give them hell for not giving an Arkansas boy a shot. We have more Arkansas recruits on our team than Bama has Bama recruits on their team. Unfortunately we can't reach out to Timbuktu and have 5*s begging to play for us.

no you can't blame recruiting for what we have now.

sorry, but there is no other way to explain our performance this year other than coaching.

if our team was top 40 and our recruiting top 30 I'd give you the benefit of the SoS arguement, but we are barely a top 100 team if that.  That has nothing to do with recruiting and everything to do with program leadership.

[longpig]

The talent Bielema has amassed at Arkansas is hidden by lack of development, scheme and effort.

[hogsanity]

Exactly.  We recruit in the top 25 and once we start playing in the top 25, there will be much less complaining.  You can't use recruiting rankings to say certain teams are good, but then discount our recruiting rank.

If you recruiting the top 25, but over half the teams you play recruit higher, which is the case in the sec, you are not going to win enough games CONSISTENTLY to be CONSISTENTLY in the top 25.

As someone pointed out 9-4 is no guarantee of being in the top 25 at the end of the season.

[cjack]

If you recruiting the top 25, but over half the teams you play recruit higher, which is the case in the sec, you are not going to win enough games CONSISTENTLY to be CONSISTENTLY in the top 25.

As someone pointed out 9-4 is no guarantee of being in the top 25 at the end of the season.

I  understand, Hogsanity.  You believe we have very few elite athletes in Arkansas high schools or at the University of Arkansas.  I got it.  I got it the first 10 times you responded like this in every other thread where recruiting comes up.  We see things differently.  I think we get the talent on campus to be a top 25 team.  You don't.  Even using ALL CAPS you aren't going to convince me I'm wrong, and vice versa.

[Poker_hog]

Deatrich Wise is a good example of what this staff does with talent.  He's starting as a rookie for the New England patriots.  Did anyone think he had that potential here? 

[PorkSoda]

Deatrich Wise is a good example of what this staff does with talent.  He's starting as a rookie for the New England patriots.  Did anyone think he had that potential here? 

I thought he had that potential, but we were never able to get much production out of him, at least not compared to flowers who was also an potential NFL DE. 

Its obvious we have had a lot of talented players the last 5 years.  the question is, why is such a talented team struggling to a one point win over a team in its first year of FBS who only has 1 win on the season.

Is anyone here really going to tell me that Coastal Carolina is fielding comparable talent?

[hogsanity]

I  understand, Hogsanity.  You believe we have very few elite athletes in Arkansas high schools or at the University of Arkansas.  I got it.  I got it the first 10 times you responded like this in every other thread where recruiting comes up.  We see things differently.  I think we get the talent on campus to be a top 25 team.  You don't.  Even using ALL CAPS you aren't going to convince me I'm wrong, and vice versa.

The only difference is that people paid very well to analyze talent in college football say it too. If not,  the Hogs would be pre season top 25 at least each year in at least some of the polls. 

[Paul]

It may just be an inferiority complex but it looks like most everybody else in the SEC has safeties as big and thick as our linebackers. And linebackers that can run as fast as our rb's.

I noticed State's guys were easily bigger & faster than ours

[PorkSoda]

The only difference is that people paid very well to analyze talent in college football say it too. If not,  the Hogs would be pre season top 25 at least each year in at least some of the polls. 

they analyze more than talent.

[HawgFan70]

between the "top" teams and the Hogs is beyond me. Sat was only the 2nd Sat I have got to watch a ton of college football, and after doing so it I am amazed at the physical difference between the top teams and the Hogs. You can just look at them and see it, before the ball is eve snapped. Many teams have lb's that are faster than the Hogs rbs. They have rb's bigger than our lbs. They have wr's 5 inches taller and that are also faster than our db's, and they have db's bigger and faster than our wr's.

Where are they getting these athletes, and why can't we at least get some like that? Those are the two questions a new coach has to answer pronto, because no one is going to scheme around that game after game after game.

We look more like a MAC team than an SEC team. 

[PorkSoda]

We look more like a MAC team than an SEC team. 

that's being generous.  I doubt we would get a bowl even if we were playing in the MAC this year.

[cjack]

Coaching coaching coaching. We may never see anothe Bama again, Nick Saban is insane. Get the coach everything else will follow.

We have plenty of talent to beat almost anyone if coaches properly.

I'll always believe this over we just aren't good enough and never can be.

[Hollywood870]

There are many posters here that will tell you this team has the talent to win 9 or 10 games, and next year a new coach can walk in here and cruise to 8 wins.

So not only can Bret not coach em up, he's leaving the cup board bare. Oh well. New coach, new possibilities. It can be done. 21-5. Dilly Dilly.

[ChicoHog]

Deatrich Wise is a good example of what this staff does with talent.  He's starting as a rookie for the New England patriots.  Did anyone think he had that potential here? 

Many did.  He was cursed with constant nagging injuries his senior year.  He had a real good second half of the season his junior year.   

[Jackrabbit Hog]

I think the talent question will be answered by the All-SEC teams that will be named at year's end.  We won't have anyone on first or second teams on either side of the ball.

[PigPusher]

between the "top" teams and the Hogs is beyond me. Sat was only the 2nd Sat I have got to watch a ton of college football, and after doing so it I am amazed at the physical difference between the top teams and the Hogs. You can just look at them and see it, before the ball is eve snapped. Many teams have lb's that are faster than the Hogs rbs. They have rb's bigger than our lbs. They have wr's 5 inches taller and that are also faster than our db's, and they have db's bigger and faster than our wr's.

Where are they getting these athletes, and why can't we at least get some like that? Those are the two questions a new coach has to answer pronto, because no one is going to scheme around that game after game after game.

When one recruits second tier players that is to be expected.  Many times it really looks like a second string team playing against the first squad.  Seems we have a way of always going gaga over three star players. Why? Did not used to be that way with the better coaches that have passed through the Razorback coaching farm system.  Go Hogs! Dang it!!!

[PigPusher]

I  understand, Hogsanity.  You believe we have very few elite athletes in Arkansas high schools or at the University of Arkansas.  I got it.  I got it the first 10 times you responded like this in every other thread where recruiting comes up.  We see things differently.  I think we get the talent on campus to be a top 25 team.  You don't.  Even using ALL CAPS you aren't going to convince me I'm wrong, and vice versa.

Have to agree with hogsanity.  Recruiting mostly 3 star players is not going to get us there. If I ran my architectural practice like that I would be out of work. He is right on.

[Letsroll1200]

Yes! Coaching talent. I watched two incompetent coaches at Arkansas and LSU. Than I watched Auburn, Georgia, Miss State, Alabama etc..

[hawginbigd1]

He's a good player, and he's Arkansas's best LB by leaps and bounds but not sure he'd start at this point for any team but Bama (actually, with their injuries, he might start now for Bama). When LSU didn't have any LBs coming up, which was the case (and why they had to move Devin White immediately from RB to LB), why did they not offer Scoota at LB?

I hear you but Bama actually did offer him, and came at him pretty aggressively as I read at the time. I watch most SEC games, Saturday was probably the best I have seen White play really. Because we got jilted by him and Tolliver I pay more attention to what they do.

[Hogwild]

We look more like a MAC team than an SEC team.

We definitely looked closer to Coastal Carolina in talent than LSU's team. 

[IronHog]

This team reminds me so much of 2013. No difference makers on either side of the ball.

This staff couldn't get a pass rush with Wise


It's more than just recruiting old man

[riccoar]

Just the two first things that jump off the page for me.  1.  Lack of player speed on defense  2.  No cornerback with the ability to play the line of scrimmage (6-7 yards off the ball)

[hogsanity]

This staff couldn't get a pass rush with Wise


It's more than just recruiting old man

It is also more than just coaching or desire. I do not care how good the coach is or how badly the players want it, if the team is undertalented it is going to struggle.

[soso]

  I noticed State's guys were easily bigger & faster than ours

I also thought State's players looked bigger, more athletic, and cut. I liked the way their strength and conditioning coach had them looking as opposed to our's. We look much softer.

[hogsanity]

I also thought State's players looked bigger, more athletic, and cut. I liked the way their strength and conditioning coach had them looking as opposed to our's. We look much softer.

They looked that way because they are and many of them looked that way when they got to campus. Much of it is just genetics. When it is brought up few want to delve into it, but racial demographics plays a huge part in this whole discussion.

[majp51]

If you recruiting the top 25, but over half the teams you play recruit higher, which is the case in the sec, you are not going to win enough games CONSISTENTLY to be CONSISTENTLY in the top 25.

As someone pointed out 9-4 is no guarantee of being in the top 25 at the end of the season.

Ehh, but that is also a bit of a catch 22. If you suck in the SEC West, that means there are teams better than you, thus higher ranked. MSU for instance will play one fewer quality opponent than Arkansas this year, primary reason? MSU doesn't play themselves, and Arkansas is not objectively a quality opponent.


Basically the biggest reason for CBB's SOS argument is because his teams are so bad.

[IronHog]

It is also more than just coaching or desire. I do not care how good the coach is or how badly the players want it, if the team is undertalented it is going to struggle.

The S&C is pathetic


Starting two kids on DL that could pick their school.....both TOO FAT

[majp51]

They looked that way because they are and many of them looked that way when they got to campus. Much of it is just genetics. When it is brought up few want to delve into it, but racial demographics plays a huge part in this whole discussion.

Maybe, but at the same time MSU's recruiting ranks are effectively identical to ours. Even with the same SEC West gauntlet to play, in 9 years under Mullen they have never lost more than 7 games. They also have two 9 win seasons and a 10 win season in that mix, with a shot at a second 10 win season this year.

This isn't an either or argument hogsanity, the current coaching staff at the Hill would have trouble consistently winning in Texas High School, that Arkansas may also face unique challenges because of demographics is just another factor.

[majp51]

The S&C is pathetic


Starting two kids on DL that could pick their school.....both TOO FAT

Well Keep in mind the Braintrust fattened up Agim on purpose. A 5 star DE in high school that they immediately move to DT. Course this is the same Braintrust that cannot build a scheme that gets consistent pressure on the opposing QB, but also took a 4 Star DL, moved him over to OL so he could give up sacks instead.

[hogsanity]

Maybe, but at the same time MSU's recruiting ranks are effectively identical to ours. Even with the same SEC West gauntlet to play, in 9 years under Mullen they have never lost more than 7 games. They also have two 9 win seasons and a 10 win season in that mix, with a shot at a second 10 win season this year.

This isn't an either or argument hogsanity, the current coaching staff at the Hill would have trouble consistently winning in Texas High School, that Arkansas may also face unique challenges because of demographics is just another factor.

I agree, recruiting is only one of the problems, but it is a problem faced by whoever the coach is. BB did not bring this problem with him, and this problem will not leave when he does.

I hate mixing basketball and football, but in this case I think it fits. When Mike Anderson has gotten good instate talent his teams have been much better than when he has not had that. This year looks to be setting up as another good year, anchored by a instate Sr guard, a Sr in state role player, and a couple really good in state fr.

When the football coach at AR has access to a really good year or two year run of LEGIT SEc players, he has a good year or two when those kids are no FR. When the in state talent pool is really shallow, the team suffers.

[majp51]

I agree, recruiting is only one of the problems, but it is a problem faced by whoever the coach is. BB did not bring this problem with him, and this problem will not leave when he does.

The demographics part, which I believe can be overcome, CBB did not bring with him. There are a slew of other recruiting issue CBB did bring with him, not the least of which is he cannot retain good Assistants, and has no real eye for talent on his own.

I hate mixing basketball and football, but in this case I think it fits. When Mike Anderson has gotten good instate talent his teams have been much better than when he has not had that. This year looks to be setting up as another good year, anchored by a instate Sr guard, a Sr in state role player, and a couple really good in state fr.

CMA also want to recruit without getting his hands dirty as it were (and no I'm not talking about cheating) , by mostly staying aware from the AAU cesspool entirely, So some of his recruiting out of state is complicated by that. If you deliberately hamstring you chances outside of the state, you have to get good in-state recruits and keep them. Course with CMA they cannot be too good, or you even lose the in-state kids too.

When the football coach at AR has access to a really good year or two year run of LEGIT SEc players, he has a good year or two when those kids are no FR. When the in state talent pool is really shallow, the team suffers.

Again, an over simplification. ON it's face it is true, but the fact is Arkansas hasn't had a really good recruiter couple with good developmental coaches and good "eye for talent" coaches. Were all of that true, I believe you would see that Arkansas' recruiting issues are no where near as big as they are.

Again using Mississippi State as an example, it has recruiting complications that dwarf Arkansas. In a State that has 1 million more population, MSU has never been the destination college for the state (Ole Miss says hi). It's about 1.5 hours from Tuscaloosa, so usually loses kids from the local are to Bama, if they don't go to Oxford , MS. Kids that have grade issues and cannot qualify for the SEC, but still meet minimums, don't have to go through CC if they want to stay in state, they can go to USM or a number of good, historically black, schools. Oh and I nearly left out the obvious, Starkville has not, is not,  and likely never will be a destination spot even for Mississippians.

The point ultimately is that good coaching(especially Player Development) and recruiting plans can absolutely overcome potential difficulties, the only exception would be a school with both Arkansas' Recruiting Challenges and MSU's Challenges, that school could get nick saban and maybe still never see anything better than a 5-7 record.