SEC RECRUITING BY THE NUMBERS

[hogsanity]

You know at first i laughed when i saw this reply and thought yeah Hogsanity maybe right but then i could almost hear the ESPiN talking heads.

When Saban or Meyer had Ball State undefeated and getting/winning their group of 6 bowl game.  The first time Saban/Meyer led Ball State team beat a "Power 5 contender" in a New Years day bowl it would seal the deal and they would put them into the NC play off mix if they went undefeated again the next year.

Sure it is highly unlikely because Ball State wouldnt have the $$ or the facilities to lure someone like Saban/Meyer away that is also kind of my point.  Bama and OSU are the "apex" of college football royalty IMHO there only exists a handful of programs that could possibly produce the kind of $$$ challenge to lure them away and until time finally takes them out of the equation they are the gold standard IMHO.

IF it could be done it would have been done. $$$, facilities, conference strength, recruits, just is not going to happen.

[311Hog]

IF it could be done it would have been done. $$$, facilities, conference strength, recruits, just is not going to happen.

That is what i am saying it "could" be done but it could only be done by these two coaches specifically and no one else.  And even they "might" not be able to pull it off or even want to etc. I mean we are talking a HUGE hypothetical here.

Saban and Meyer's methods, rep, skills, style etc. everything that makes them them is so far ahead of the next person it isn't even funny.  People talk about parity and there is huge parity among all the "others" but there is no parity for these two guys. And them being at arguably the most powerful institutions in the country just makes sense and deters any possibility of these coaches going anywhere else save the NFL or actual retirement.

[S.A.D.C]

Nope, just trying to point out that you don't have to have the best recruiting classes to win. A lot of programs are winning now a days without top ranked recruiting classes. They might no be winning national championships but they are winning a lot of ball games while looking good and competitive in the ones they lose. That's all.

And I see plenty of talent on the hill. Maybe not enough team speed yet but more than enough talent that just needs to be put in a position to succeed. Now keep in mind that I'm mainly talking about the defense and some questionable in game decisions by the Head man. The offense will be fine. Am I wrong in that assessment?

#CoachingMatters

I agree that coaching matters... BUT the idea that programs are winning without top ranked recruiting classes is just false.  At least no one does that CONSISTENTLY.  Sure, in a given year a team might win a lot and make it into the top 10 (ala Colorado this year) without having great rankings...  But the teams that are regularly at the top of the recruiting are also at the top of the recruiting rankings.  Coaching matters because coaches win GAMES.  But players win seasons.   

[hogcard1964]

I appreciate the discussion on my last thread about the win/loss records of previous coaches.

Several years ago I looked into the effects recruiting has on BCS/Playoff participation.  Who does less with more or more with less?  I only tracked through the top 50 schools.  If you have the #63 recruiting class, well, great.  I picked this list up again recently and here it is.

This is what I found, and within these numbers you can see the rise of not just the SEC, but the SEC West.
Note:  All averages rounded to once decimal.

Teams         02      03      04     05     06     07     08     09     10     11     12     13     14     15     16

East
Tennessee       2        18      14      4      23      3      35      10    9      13     17     21      5      5       15       
Georgia           3        6        6       10     4       9       7        6     15     5      12     12      7      7       11
South Car.       11      8        24     23     24      6      22      12    24    18     19     16      16    19      27
Florida             20      2        7       15     2       1       3       11    2      12     3       4        8     23      14
Kentucky          NR     NR     35      NR    36     NR     NR     41    50    NR    NR    29      17    36      29
Vanderbilt        NR     NR     NR     NR    NR     NR     NR     NR    NR   NR    29     19      49    47     NR
Missouri            -        -        -        -       -         -       -        -       -      -      31     41      34    27     47
Best 4 avg.      9.0     8.5     12.8   13    13.3   4.8    16.8   9.8   12.5  12    12.8  18      9.0   13.5   16.8

West
Auburn            6        11      23     13     10      7       20     19    4      7      10      9       9       6       9
LSU                 15      1        2       22     7       4       11      2     6      6      18      6       2       8       5
Miss. St.          17      9        NR     33     46     39     44      25    38    44    30      26     37     16     25
Arkansas         27      29       16     24     27     31     36      16    49    24    34      27     29     25     32
Alabama         30      49       15     18     11     10      1       1      5      1      1       1       1       2       1
Ole Miss          33      38       29     30     15     27      29     18    18    19    40      7       19     21      8
TAMU               -         -        -        -       -        -        -       -       -      -      15     11      6      10      16
Best 4 avg.     16.3    12.5    14     19.3  10.8   12     15.3   9.3  8.3    8.3   11     5.8    4.5    6.5     5.8

Things I noticed:
1.  The Saban Effect.  Damn.
2.  The West has had better recruiting than the East for 9 consecutive years (using the best 4 classes on each side).  The East had better classes every year in this list but one.
3.  In '14 and '15 ALL the SEC teams had recruiting classes in the Top 50.  Even Vandy.
4.  The largest difference between the two divisions is the class of '13, which just so happen to be seniors now.
5.  Arkansas is the only team in the SEC West that has not had a class in the Top 10 in this sample, regardless of coach.  (Missouri, Vanderbilt and Kentucky in the East)
6.  Arkansas' average all time is 28.4.  CBB's is 28.25.  Petrino had 31.25.  Nutt had 25.67.  As we saw with the win/loss post, CBB had a lot more competition now than Nutt did in his tenure.

Enjoy.

That's very disheartening.  And it doesn't seem to be improving.

...sad

[hogsanity]

That's very disheartening.  And it doesn't seem to be improving.

...sad

well, tell us how to improve it...................I'll hang up and listen

[Deep Shoat]

well, tell us how to improve it...................I'll hang up and listen

You just recruit better.  Duh!

[hogcard1964]

well, tell us how to improve it...................I'll hang up and listen

I'm going to start my own show called "Being hogcard1964".  That'll get em!!!!

[Deep Shoat]

I'm going to start my own show called "Being hogcard1964".  That'll get em!!!!

I thought "Life Goes On" was cancelled in the 90's...

[Youngsta71701]

It is correct that great players will beat good players most of the time.  But even more correct that great coaching will best poor or average coaching most of the time.  I honestly believe BAMA and Arkansas could exchange squads right now and Saban and staff with our players would beat BB and staff with BAMA's players next year at BAMA.  While our coach may know lots about Xs & Os, he is not getting it across to the players and he is not leading the assistants to greatness.  Remember these are his handpicked Guys coaching this team.  Saban puts on a clinic each week on how to coach a football team.  Get involved, coach and teach every play, every move, every assistant and every player.  You can tell that every detail is taught, coached, practiced and then gone over again.  Saban expects each player to know and do his part, every player.  Hell, we don't likely know the names of the players that don't start or at least it looks that way.

This might be a crazy statement but I'm inclined to agree with it. If you gave Coach Saban our current players and you gave us and Coach Beilema Alabama's current players Coach Saban would probably still find a way to beat us. If not the game would be really competitive and close. I don't think that's too far fetched either...

[Youngsta71701]

I agree that coaching matters... BUT the idea that programs are winning without top ranked recruiting classes is just false.  At least no one does that CONSISTENTLY.  Sure, in a given year a team might win a lot and make it into the top 10 (ala Colorado this year) without having great rankings...  But the teams that are regularly at the top of the recruiting are also at the top of the recruiting rankings.  Coaching matters because coaches win GAMES.  But players win seasons.   

When is the last time Wisconsin had a top ranked recruiting class if ever? Yet they win 8 plus games pretty much every year correct? And the ones they lose they are at least competitive. Correct? I would say that's pretty CONSISTENT.

[311Hog]

When is the last time Wisconsin had a top ranked recruiting class if ever? Yet they win 8 plus games pretty much every year correct? And the ones they lose they are at least competitive. Correct? I would say that's pretty CONSISTENT.

But this is disingenuous .  Wisconsin and us are almost indistinguishable as programs from our results and style of play.  You have people on here that are not happy with 8 win seasons where we lose to Bama LSU and A&M every year.

Well Wisconsin pretty much wins 8 games and loses to OSU and Michigan every year.  Getting 3 stars and coaching them up IS SUCCESSFUL but it does not win the National Championship or get you in the playoff CONSISTENTLY. 

And Wisconsin has been blown out before or did we forget OSU's shellacking in the b10 title game 2 years ago?

All this selective memory from people.  You basically have 3 choices for your program in terms of fan expectation.

1. Undefeated National title hunt every year (Saban - Bama) 
2. "8 win seasons" chance to be in the Play off maybe even win it one day if lucky
3. Perennial loser, considers any bowl game to be a great season.

Obviously very few fan bases gets to enjoy number 1, but we could fall into number 2, though it seems like many wish to continue jumping from coach to coach until we are sadly in number 3 because Nick Saban nor Urban Meyer are walking through that door.

[Youngsta71701]

But this is disingenuous .  Wisconsin and us are almost indistinguishable as programs from our results and style of play.  You have people on here that are not happy with 8 win seasons where we lose to Bama LSU and A&M every year.

Well Wisconsin pretty much wins 8 games and loses to OSU and Michigan every year.  Getting 3 stars and coaching them up IS SUCCESSFUL but it does not win the National Championship or get you in the playoff CONSISTENTLY. 

And Wisconsin has been blown out before or did we forget OSU's shellacking in the b10 title game 2 years ago?

All this selective memory from people.  You basically have 3 choices for your program in terms of fan expectation.

1. Undefeated National title hunt every year (Saban - Bama) 
2. "8 win seasons" chance to be in the Play off maybe even win it one day if lucky
3. Perennial loser, considers any bowl game to be a great season.

Obviously very few fan bases gets to enjoy number 1, but we could fall into number 2, though it seems like many wish to continue jumping from coach to coach until we are sadly in number 3 because Nick Saban nor Urban Meyer are walking through that door.

1. I agree with all of this.
2. Every team gets blown out at some point or another no matter how good they are. As long as you compete til the end I can deal with it better.
3. I do believe they have beaten Michigan and Ohio State over this stretch of CONSISTENCY. Although it may have been pre Meyer and Harbaugh.
4. I guess I'm one of the few fans that's cool with #2...Lol

[311Hog]

at this point i am cool with # 2 as well man.  I understand to some degree what it would take to get to #1 and i do not think that is possible here without astronomical levels of cheating/spending/bending of rules etc. content to just sit around and wait for the next great AR product to be born i guess, and then hope his talent isn't wasted by mediocre coaching.  Example: Nutt wasted Dmac/Hillis  IMHO, but Petrino did a good job for the part with the Warren kids + Mallet we should have beaten OSU.

[Youngsta71701]

at this point i am cool with # 2 as well man.  I understand to some degree what it would take to get to #1 and i do not think that is possible here without astronomical levels of cheating/spending/bending of rules etc. content to just sit around and wait for the next great AR product to be born i guess, and then hope his talent is wasted by mediocre coaching.  Example: Nutt wasted Dmac/Hillis  IMHO, but Petrino did a good job for the part with the Warren kids + Mallet we should have beaten OSU.

No doubt. Still hurts when I think about it...

[Michael D Huff AIA]

I appreciate it whenever a person actually gets the facts instead of just spouting opinions.  Good work & thanks.

I did have a question.  Those rankings are not from 247Sports.  What service did you get the numbers from?

I used Rivals.  They had data going back the most years.

And yeah, I like to deal in things we can prove, or at least quantify.  It makes discussions easier when 2 can be proven to be larger than 1.