Arkansas Mountian Lions

[RazorReb]

http://www.topix.com/album/detail/paragould-ar/OGFV445189J1LH35

Get real, you can see a collar on the damn cat. That is almost as crazy as those pics YOU posted that were from a different state.

[RazorReb]

HogBreath,
Look at the body dimensions of the cat in the pic. If you have a cat that looks that size from 20 feet away please post the pic of this white cat you speak of.

Yeah that house cat must weigh all of 15 pounds

[twistitup]

Yeah that house cat must weigh all of 15 pounds

Please post a pic of your cat from 20 ft away ~ you seem to be sure it weighs 15 pounds? I think you are full of it.

Please, everyone that reads this post and claims to have a huge house cat - PLEASE post a pic from a distance of 15-20 ft and let's see if your cat has dimensions of the cat in the pic.

Let's quit arguing and just post a damn pic of these huge house cat you guys own!

Thanks - I appreciate it.

[hogdiggity]

Good point, you got me there, on many occasions, I have been able to just look at fire ants, obviously we do have fire ants, unfortunately I've never been able to look at a mountain lion.

OK, maybe this pic has been posted on this thread, but I didn't see it.  According to cougarnet.org this picture is from Arkansas in 2003. 

http://www.cougarnet.org/seast-desc/Cougar.png

it was taken in perry county according to this documentation.

[RazorReb]

Please post a pic of your cat from 20 ft away ~ you seem to be sure it weighs 15 pounds? I think you are full of it.

Please, everyone that reads this post and claims to have a huge house cat - PLEASE post a pic from a distance of 15-20 ft and let's see if your cat has dimensions of the cat in the pic.

Let's quit arguing and just post a damn pic of these huge house cat you guys own!

Thanks - I appreciate it.

You're right, more like 10 pounds

[RazorReb]

OK, maybe this pic has been posted on this thread, but I didn't see it.  According to cougarnet.org this picture is from Arkansas in 2003. 

http://www.cougarnet.org/seast-desc/Cougar.png

it was taken in perry county according to this documentation.

That is a cougar, the other pic was a house cat.

[hogdiggity]

That is a cougar, the other pic was a house cat.

I am not vouching for the other photo.  But I think this one is pretty cut and dried and somewhat officially confirmed

[RazorReb]

I am not vouching for the other photo.  But I think this one is pretty cut and dried and somewhat officially confirmed

I am for sure there are cougars in Arkansas. Many of them. The larger the deer population gets the more cougars we will have. Cougars eat deer.

[hogdiggity]

I am for sure there are cougars in Arkansas. Many of them. The larger the deer population gets the more cougars we will have. Cougars eat deer.

back several days (1/14) you were looking for photo evidence of a cougar in Ark, as several were.

[hogs24]

hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaahhahhahhahahah-ahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah-ahahhahaahhahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhhahah-ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah-ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfw-tfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtf

Hilarious?!

[spit]

twist -

why do you need someone to post a pic of their cat to see a pic of a confirmed house cat?  thats just retarded.  we all know, well most of us atleast, what a house cat looks like.  Look at the pics already above in this thread.  One is of a mtn lion obviously... notice how much BIGGER it is, sleek/muscular, than the furry little black house cat you posted.  OMG if you can't see a difference you're blind.

[spit]

It all makes much more sense to me now.  I've often wondered how/why some people out there really do staunchly believe there are black panthers around, some even claim as twist to have killed one of them, and now its clear WHY these people are so convinced - they're simply confused and/or can't tell the difference between a black house cat and a "black panther".  I can see how that would cause this problem. 
--- FWIW, I have seen many black house cats in my time.  If i actually truly believed most of them or ANY of them were panthers then i would argue until i was blue in the face about their existence as well.

I wouldn't totally refute someone's testimony to seeing a mtn lion, especially when described as the other pic above.  If you get even a decent look at one, you'll KNOW its not a house cat or bobcat, again refer to the pic above, NO DOUBT what that is (where the pic is taken and if that cat is wild are subject to controversy, i would not say its "confirmed" from what i've heard/read about that pic over the years.).  Now, I'm not saying you can't tell when one crosses the road, but one running across a country road could be mistaken identity a majority of the time as well. Or, fwiw, could be a pet.

[spit]

--- But, claims of black panthers running wild in the state of Ark have got to stop.  Otherwise it tends to discredit even more the possibly legitimate claims of seeing true mtn lions in the state.  As for all the denial that is so rampant and upsetting to people like you - you yourself are a big part of the problem.  Shooting yourself in the foot with this nonsense.  Especially when it goes as far as posting a pic like that on the internet and defending it as a black panther so adamantly. 

FWIW, it doesn't help your cause if you are trying to promote the existence of mtn lions here.  When you say you've seen one yourself - and go on to say that it was "jet black".... most educated or sensible people simply tune you out and won't pay any more attention to anything you say on the subject.  That's a fact and all of you that don't understand that need to get it through your head.

[twistitup]

--- But, claims of black panthers running wild in the state of Ark have got to stop.  Otherwise it tends to discredit even more the possibly legitimate claims of seeing true mtn lions in the state.  As for all the denial that is so rampant and upsetting to people like you - you yourself are a big part of the problem.  Shooting yourself in the foot with this nonsense.  Especially when it goes as far as posting a pic like that on the internet and defending it as a black panther so adamantly. 

FWIW, it doesn't help your cause if you are trying to promote the existence of mtn lions here.  When you say you've seen one yourself - and go on to say that it was "jet black".... most educated or sensible people simply tune you out and won't pay any more attention to anything you say on the subject.  That's a fact and all of you that don't understand that need to get it through your head.

You spend a lot of time in front of the computer trying to prove your point...

Well, maybe you need to type less and go out more. There are mountain lions in Arkansas and the surrounding states (have been for years). They have been sighted, confirmed, etc...so, you are wrong on Mtn Lions not being in AR. Now, you are desperately trying to disprove there are any large black wild cats (panthers).

I have seen one dead. Yes, dead. Sleek, Muscular, Long Tail and BLACK.  So, why should I hear what you say?

I have had house cats (we had 5-8 around the farm) this was not a house cat. You claiming that I don't know the difference says it all. I have been a hunter and fisherman since early childhood- I have spent countless hours in the outdoors, I know what a house cat looks like. I also know what wild cats looks like and is built like. 

Stop typing, start hiking - you might see an animal that is not 'supposed' to be in Arkansas as well...

[twistitup]

twist -

why do you need someone to post a pic of their cat to see a pic of a confirmed house cat?  thats just retarded.  we all know, well most of us atleast, what a house cat looks like.  Look at the pics already above in this thread.  One is of a mtn lion obviously... notice how much BIGGER it is, sleek/muscular, than the furry little black house cat you posted.  OMG if you can't see a difference you're blind.

I don't believe anyone can produce a photo of a house cat from 15-20 ft. away that looks like the black cat in the above photo. I am not asking for any house cat photo~ 20 ft. from a domesticated cat, take a pic, and let's see how it looks.

I dare to say, we won't see a pic of any cat that looks like the above black cat. 

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

There are Mt. Lions (Cougars) in Arkansas.

If someone sees something that is black, it is something else.  The one picture is a house cat and like Albert said, it even appears to have a collar.

[Albert Einswine]

lost cred? I could care less - that is not a freaking house cat. If so, please post a pic of the house cat you are talking about! From the distance that pic was taken - it's much larger than a house cat.

If you took a pic of a house cat from 15-20ft away - it would not look the size/length of the cat in the pic.

If the cat in this picture were captured in front of that corn feeder on that trail cam you'd be saying, "but look at the girth of that tail, it's obviously a panther." 

[twistitup]

If the cat in this picture were captured in front of that corn feeder on that trail cam you'd be saying, "but look at the girth of that tail, it's obviously a panther." 

Thanks for the pic, it proves my point. That is a picture from what...2 feet away (maybe)? Put that same cat next to a tree and walk 20' away take the pic. You won't be so impressed.

Also, does your cat take strolls through the forest and get captured on trail cams?

[hogcoots]

I saw several black panthers in downtown Little Rock during the late 60's early 70's.  They were extremely militant and really didn't like their pictures taken.  I am disappointed to hear that they are making a comeback in Arkansas.  I thought we had made progress over the last few decades.

[Albert Einswine]

Thanks for the pic, it proves my point. That is a picture from what...2 feet away (maybe)? Put that same cat next to a tree and walk 20' away take the pic. You won't be so impressed.

Also, does your cat take strolls through the forest and get captured on trail cams?

You don't think cats take strolls through the woods and get captured on trail cams?  LOL!  I guess dogs don't either.

We had an outside cat years ago that wandered up as a mangy, stray, solid black kitten.  We named him Tito, got him healthy and I built him a nice house to stay in under the garage.

He grew to be rather large and looked just like a miniature version of the panther in this photo.  He roamed Crowley's Ridge in a 1 1/2 to 2 mile radius of the house every day.  I wouldn't find it shocking if he wound up on someone's trail cam.  There's probably some goober out there marvelling at the black panther pic that showed up on his camera.

[HogBreath]

Also, does your cat take strolls through the forest and get captured on trail cams?

You mean all those kitty cats I've seen down thru the years out in the woods were really pumas and panthers?

Years ago, I caught what I assumed was just a common house cat in one of my traps, he wasn't hurt too bad, so I just let him go, and he scampered away.  I wonder how much I coulda got for that panther hide?

[twistitup]

You mean all those kitty cats I've seen down thru the years out in the woods were really pumas and panthers?

Years ago, I caught what I assumed was just a common house cat in one of my traps, he wasn't hurt too bad, so I just let him go, and he scampered away.  I wonder how much I coulda got for that panther hide?

Quit trapping in your backyard and you won't trap house cats...

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

Albert, this discussion will persist as long as there are people who look at this photo and see something other than the domestic house cat that it clearly is.  Someone so convinced it is something else will always over look the obvious references in the photo.

[Albert Einswine]

Albert, this discussion will persist as long as there are people who look at this photo and see something other than the domestic house cat that it clearly is.  Someone so convinced it is something else will always over look the obvious references in the photo.

I know, I'm just having fun.

[HogBreath]

Quit trapping in your backyard and you won't trap house cats...

That's kinda the point, Twist, it wasn't in my back yard, I was out in the swamps, miles from the nearest house. 

Using your logic, it would have had to be a panther, since according to you, a kitty cat will never show up on someone's trail cam, which of course, all reasonable folks know is just foolishness.

[RazorReb]

Albert, this discussion will persist as long as there are people who look at this photo and see something other than the domestic house cat that it clearly is.  Someone so convinced it is something else will always over look the obvious references in the photo.

That cat even has a collar on.

[RazorReb]

If the cat in this picture were captured in front of that corn feeder on that trail cam you'd be saying, "but look at the girth of that tail, it's obviously a panther." 

Twist, qucik save that lady from that black Panther

[twistitup]

Seems like they have been spotted other areas as well. But, they all are probably just lying.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/13/SP8C1031C2.DTL

[twistitup]

It seems that earlier in this thread you were saying that the "internet" desn't prove anything now you are trying to use it.  You can't have it both ways. You need to go hit that bong water and see if you see anymore black panthers out your back door. Otherwise cut the crap, no one here believes you.

It seems your wrong. I never stated anything about the internet not proving anything. Maybe you should read closer and post less. You think I am the only one to see wild black cats? Did you not read the article? There are quotes and confirmed sightings from a wildlife expert...

Guess what; I did not write the article in case you have not figured that one out.

All you have to lean on is reefer / bong water references? Are you 12?

(Did you really say I need to hit the bong water - WTH???)

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

The Mt Lion, (Cougar, Puma) was native to Arkansas, was extirpated and is now, most likely, re-expanding its range back into Arkansas.  There has never been an officially documented "black phase of this animal Felis (Puma) concolor.

Jaguars, Panthera onca , are native to Mexico, Central and South America and a black (melanistic) phase individual is common to the species.  These animals have never occurred in Arkansas naturally.

The only other explanation for so many sightings of large black cats would be that there is some, heretofore, undocumented species running around our state.  However, you have to keep in mind that BigFoot falls into this category too.  A lot of people have seen him, but no one has ever obtained irrefutable proof that they exist.

[Hawgon]

Jaguars, Panthera onca , are native to Mexico, Central and South America and a black (melanistic) phase individual is common to the species.  These animals have never occurred in Arkansas naturally.

The only other explanation for so many sightings of large black cats would be that there is some, heretofore, undocumented species running around our state.  However, you have to keep in mind that BigFoot falls into this category too.  A lot of people have seen him, but no one has ever obtained irrefutable proof that they exist.

Jaguars were once quite common in parts of Texas and there may be a few in the Big Bend Country today.  Given that cats sometimes wander hundreds of miles, I wouldn't say that there were never any Arkansas.  There may have from time to time been individual jaguars who wandered through the area.

Another very real possibility for black cats could be the Ocelot and the Jaguarundi.  They are both common in Mexico and South Texas.  They could be expanding their range and they both have black phases.  They are bigger than house cats but smaller than moutain lions.

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

Jaguars were once quite common in parts of Texas and there may be a few in the Big Bend Country today.  Given that cats sometimes wander hundreds of miles, I wouldn't say that there were never any Arkansas.  There may have from time to time been individual jaguars who wandered through the area.


Another very real possibility for black cats could be the Ocelot and the Jaguarundi.  They are both common in Mexico and South Texas.  They could be expanding their range and they both have black phases.  They are bigger than house cats but smaller than moutain lions.

Jaguars have, for the most part been extirpated from their ancestral haunts in Texas.  Also, an individual wandering through "from time to time" hardly accounts for the number of black cat sightings that have been reported in Arkansas.  Why would it always be a black Jaguar and not a spotted one which is much more common?

Ocelots and Jaguarundis? Still not likely.  While common in much of their range (South America), both of these cats are very rare in the northern part of their ranges (Northern Mexico and South Texas).  The ocelot is even endangered.  That greatly reduces the probability that there are black phase individuals occasionally visiting Arkansas. 

[twistitup]

 

Jaguars have, for the most part been extirpated from their ancestral haunts in Texas.  Also, an individual wandering through "from time to time" hardly accounts for the number of black cat sightings that have been reported in Arkansas.  Why would it always be a black Jaguar and not a spotted one which is much more common?

Ocelots and Jaguarundis? Still not likely.  While common in much of their range (South America), both of these cats are very rare in the northern part of their ranges (Northern Mexico and South Texas).  The ocelot is even endangered.  That greatly reduces the probability that there are black phase individuals occasionally visiting Arkansas. 

Mr Boarffett,
How do you explain the overall increased amounts of sighting in all states; not just Arkansas?

Is everyone mistaken / lying?

[Hawgon]

On the History Channel they have the show Monster Quest.  One night it was about black cats.

They showed video taken of a black cat in West Virginia.  The video was taken at a known distance in an area where there were numerous reference points in the form of trees, grass, and other items.  Based on photo analysis and comparison to the reference points it was concluded that the cat in the video was about 2ft tall and between 3 and 4 ft long, if I remember correctly.

It may not have been as big as a mountain lion, but it was certainly larger than a house cat.  Of the known species in the world, Jaguarundi fits the bill the best for a cat of that size and color.

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

Mr Boarffett,
How do you explain the overall increased amounts of sighting in all states; not just Arkansas?

Is everyone mistaken / lying?

I'm not in the habit of calling people liars.  However, in the case of BigFoot, it's hard to restrain myself.

As far as most of these cat sightings, I believe people are briefly seeing something black, a german shepard, a black lab, black house cat or whatever.  Due to not knowing exactly what they saw and, with all the hype over "black cat" sightings, they tend to fool themselves into believing they now belong to a small but elite group of people who have seen one of these mysterious cats.  I believe there is sort of a mob mentality going on here. 

I don't think the explanation for these sightings is the visitation of exotic creatures to Arkansas.  Giving the benefit of the doubt, I think people are seeing something but are misinterpreting what they see.   There have been documented occurrences of black bob cats, while this doesn't explain the reported sightings that include an animal with a long, thick tail, this could explain some of the sightings.  Since  bobcat occurs naturally in Arkansas something like this makes much more sense to me.  Black house cats are also common and, under certain circumstances could be misidentified.  I don't know.

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

On the History Channel they have the show Monster Quest.  One night it was about black cats.

They showed video taken of a black cat in West Virginia.  The video was taken at a known distance in an area where there were numerous reference points in the form of trees, grass, and other items.  Based on photo analysis and comparison to the reference points it was concluded that the cat in the video was about 2ft tall and between 3 and 4 ft long, if I remember correctly.

It may not have been as big as a mountain lion, but it was certainly larger than a house cat.  Of the known species in the world, Jaguarundi fits the bill the best for a cat of that size and color.

Jaguarundis are not noticeably larger than a house cat.  They are well within the upper size range of a house cat.  Also, in appearance, they are often said to look weasel or otter like.  I'm sorry, this would be an extremely remote possibility for the cat in West Virginia.  It most probably was something much more common, like a black house cat.

[Hawgon]

Jaguarundis are not noticeably larger than a house cat.  They are well within the upper size range of a house cat.  Also, in appearance, they are often said to look weasel or otter like.  I'm sorry, this would be an extremely remote possibility for the cat in West Virginia.  It most probably was something much more common, like a black house cat.
[/quote

I'm telling you, it wasn't a house cat.  They could tell how big it was.  It was bigger than a house cat.

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

Hawgon, I've seen Monster Quest.  They string you along for the duration of the program without ever really resolving the initial question.  I wouldn't draw any firm conclusions from that kind of slick journalism program.  I think you and I are really at the same point.  We don't know what these black cats are for sure, but we each have our own ideas.  That's about the only definite conclusion I can draw.

[Hawgon]

Hawgon, I've seen Monster Quest.  They string you along for the duration of the program without ever really resolving the initial question.  I wouldn't draw any firm conclusions from that kind of slick journalism program.  I think you and I are really at the same point.  We don't know what these black cats are for sure, but we each have our own ideas.  That's about the only definite conclusion I can draw.

Of course they don't tell you what anything is.  But they did show that the cat was not a house cat based on pure size alone.

Now, as for the jaguarundi, there is also a documented population in Florida.

[twistitup]

Jaguarundis are not noticeably larger than a house cat.  They are well within the upper size range of a house cat.  Also, in appearance, they are often said to look weasel or otter like.  I'm sorry, this would be an extremely remote possibility for the cat in West Virginia.  It most probably was something much more common, like a black house cat.
[/quote

I'm telling you, it wasn't a house cat.  They could tell how big it was.  It was bigger than a house cat.

Howgon,
There is no convincing any of these guys that there is anything out there but big black house cats. I have not seen the monster quest video, but I have seen a dead, muscular all black cat that was longer than any house cat I have EVER seen. There is a legit article above from the outdoors section a CA newspaper with wildlife experts confirming the sighting and they still don't believe. In the article there is also 8-10 sightings by hikers as well.

I have never seen so many black house cat sightings across the nation. Go Figure.

[hogdiggity]

The picture that was posted above that is being called a house cat by some, does look remarkedly similar to this picture of a jaguarundi:

http://endangeredmammals.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/jaguarundi-herpailurus-yagouarundi/


who knows.....the original intent of this thread was are there mt. lions in Arkansas, I don't see how anyone can argue that there aren't considering the findings of the Cougar Network group, whom the US Fish and Wildlife Dept. refers to for documented sightings

[Albert Einswine]

Of course they don't tell you what anything is.  But they did show that the cat was not a house cat based on pure size alone.

Now, as for the jaguarundi, there is also a documented population in Florida.

You're not correctly remembering that particular episode.  They ran the known distances and reference points along with the video of the cat and came to the conclusion that it was a very large specimen of domestic cat.

[Albert Einswine]

The picture that was posted above that is being called a house cat by some, does look remarkedly similar to this picture of a jaguarundi:

http://endangeredmammals.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/jaguarundi-herpailurus-yagouarundi/


who knows.....the original intent of this thread was are there mt. lions in Arkansas, I don't see how anyone can argue that there aren't considering the findings of the Cougar Network group, whom the US Fish and Wildlife Dept. refers to for documented sightings

I don't at all doubt there are migrant cougars that roam through Arkansas.  I don't believe there are established native populations.  However, I just plain laugh at this black panther nonsense.  I've been hearing this crap since I was 5 years old and there's not one shred of evidence.  Not one.

[hogdiggity]

I don't at all doubt there are migrant cougars that roam through Arkansas.  I don't believe there are established native populations.  However, I just plain laugh at this black panther nonsense.  I've been hearing this crap since I was 5 years old and there's not one shred of evidence.  Not one.

I don't know how you can call anywhere home to a cougar, they have been documented through radio collar tracking to travel as much as 2700 miles.

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

The picture that was posted above that is being called a house cat by some, does look remarkedly similar to this picture of a jaguarundi:

http://endangeredmammals.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/jaguarundi-herpailurus-yagouarundi/


who knows.....the original intent of this thread was are there mt. lions in Arkansas, I don't see how anyone can argue that there aren't considering the findings of the Cougar Network group, whom the US Fish and Wildlife Dept. refers to for documented sightings

The listed size for Jaguarundis in your link is 13.2 pounds.  Most commonly, the size range for a Jaguarundi is considered to be 10-20 pounds.  That is essentially the same size as the common house cat.  I have a female house cat that weighs 18 pounds (weighed at the vet).  Why would the animal posted in the picture be the extremely rare/exotic Jaguarundi and not the very common house cat?

As far as the presence of Mt Lions in Arkansas, you bet.  They are here, I believe due to a reclaiming of their ancestral range.  Where this gets balled up is in the "Black Cat" sightings.  Heck, maybe it's some government science project.  Again, who knows.

[HogBreath]

Well, I don't mean to fan the flames, but I once upon a time did observe some type of solid black, cat like creature.  I at first just assumed it was a black house cat, honestly, didn't really think a lot about it, but then I noticed it was considerably larger than a common house cat. 

I didn't get a real good look at it, so it may have been a plain ole house cat, but I kinda sorta suspect it may have been something else, or I could just be mistaken. 

I first spotted it on the shoulder of the hiway, only a short distance(1/4 mile north of city lake) outside of Nashville, AR, it ran down into the ditch, right by a big field and just flat out disappeared.

[Albert Einswine]

I don't know how you can call anywhere home to a cougar, they have been documented through radio collar tracking to travel as much as 2700 miles.

Breeding population establishing a permanent home range, how's that?

[hogdiggity]

Breeding population establishing a permanent home range, how's that?

I guess that would work, but it seems as some animals just don't stick to one location regardless. 

[Albert Einswine]

I guess that would work, but it seems as some animals just don't stick to one location regardless. 

But we could agree that they seem to stick to California, Colorado, Oregon, Washington, Montana, Wyoming, New Mexico, Arizona and British Columbia, right?

[hogdiggity]

yes, there are some areas where they seem to be less nomadic, and these areas tend to have more cats in them.  This may be one reason why they are less nomadic, they don't have to move around to find a mate.