Reasons why The University of Arkansas should never play Arkansas State

[jburcka]

Im trying to explain this to a friend of mine and I could use a little help.  I have mentioned us being a small state with a very small recruiting base, a possible loss would loose us booster dollars and many fans.  I also explained that people may stop giving money to the educational side of the University of Arkansas thus lowering the value of the degree in the long term.

I need some more reasons and any economic/educational factors that go with playing a in state team would really help the most (he is not that concerned with our athletic reasons, he instead believes that us playing them would help the population of arkansas the reaches a higher education).

[mizzouman]

I think that would never happen in football but basketball is a possibility.

[broken legs]

what do you win?

[Man_O_Pork]

Im trying to explain this to a friend of mine and I could use a little help.  I have mentioned us being a small state with a very small recruiting base, a possible loss would loose us booster dollars and many fans.  I also explained that people may stop giving money to the educational side of the University of Arkansas thus lowering the value of the degree in the long term.

I need some more reasons and any economic/educational factors that go with playing a in state team would really help the most (he is not that concerned with our athletic reasons, he instead believes that us playing them would help the population of arkansas the reaches a higher education).

From the perspective of the Arkansas AD, does it make sense?  Jeff Long isn't in the business of promoting what's best for the educational achievement levels of the average Arkansan; his job is to do what's best for the athletic department at the University of Arkansas.  You have to look at this question from an incentive standpoint of the decision-makers.  Your friend can make all the "Good for the State" touchy-feely arguments he wants, but the only argument that matters is what each school has to gain by agreeing to play the game.

Until it makes good business/strategic sense that we start playing ASU, it'll take an act of the General Assembly for us to play them.

[jburcka]

good points but he said the state legislator has the ability to mandate the change, i know Jeff Long would never want to play ASU.

[Michael Porkleone]

good points but he said the state legislator has the ability to mandate the change, i know Jeff Long would never want to play ASU.

That is BS about the state legislation having ANY control over the situation. 

It is solely the decision of the athletic departments. 

Tell your friend he is full of it. 

[PositronHog]

http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=251660.0

http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=239449.0

[jkstock04]

what do you win?

Nothing other than bragging rights.  All it would do is bring attention to AR. State.  They of course have nothing to lose in playing us...and we have everything to lose in playing them.  Why should we help them any?  Why should we give them nat'l exposure?  They would probably beat us 1 time in 25 times...and we would hear about it for eternity like we do the 1964 nat'l championship.

[HOGWILD_F4I]

excuses excuses

[jkstock04]

excuses excuses

Enlighten me then.  Give me a LOGICAL reason the Hogs should play AR. State...other than state bragging rights. 

[Michael Porkleone]

"It would keep the money in the state!"

[SLC]

Some state legislators have tried and failed to mandate a game.  The state legislature needs to focus on important matters, not football. 

That said, why would Arkansas play A-state?  Why?  What out-of-state paper or other media org will cover that game?  Where's the  financial incentive?  Where is the recruiting incentive? 

All it will do is split the state more.  Look at Mississippi?  Can you imagine how successful a team would be if that state were unified behind it?  It could probably fight off Bama and LSU for in-state recruits and be a contender.

Again, how does playing A-state benefit the Hogs? 

The simple matter is that it would only benefit A-state. 

[STLRazorback]

Arkansas v. A-State would sell out every time.  You can't say that about playing Western Illinois and UT-Chattanooga.

I'd much rather see the Hogs destroy A-State than see them destroy another Sun Belt team.

[Michaelt]

Nothing other than bragging rights.  All it would do is bring attention to AR. State.  They of course have nothing to lose in playing us...and we have everything to lose in playing them.  Why should we help them any?  Why should we give them nat'l exposure?  They would probably beat us 1 time in 25 times...and we would hear about it for eternity like we do the 1964 nat'l championship.

Not to jump into this too much, but based on your thoughts I have a few questions.

Why then, do we play Louisiana-Monroe?
Western Illinois?
Missouri State?
Boise State?
Troy?
North Texas?
Florida International?
Utah State?

What benefit does the University of Arkansas get from playing these teams?

I don't have a huge opinion one way or another, but if we're going to play scrub teams, why not play the scrub team of Arkansas?

[AudiA4]

From the perspective of the Arkansas AD, does it make sense?  Jeff Long isn't in the business of promoting what's best for the educational achievement levels of the average Arkansan; his job is to do what's best for the athletic department at the University of Arkansas.  You have to look at this question from an incentive standpoint of the decision-makers.  Your friend can make all the "Good for the State" touchy-feely arguments he wants, but the only argument that matters is what each school has to gain by agreeing to play the game.

Until it makes good business/strategic sense that we start playing ASU, it'll take an act of the General Assembly for us to play them.

The (relatively) new LSU AD thought this policy was archaic, and now they play one in-state school each year on the basis that they should keep the money in-state and generate interest.  It makes all the sense in the world.

[lrcentral]

Im trying to explain this to a friend of mine and I could use a little help.  I have mentioned us being a small state with a very small recruiting base, a possible loss would loose us booster dollars and many fans.  I also explained that people may stop giving money to the educational side of the University of Arkansas thus lowering the value of the degree in the long term.

I need some more reasons and any economic/educational factors that go with playing a in state team would really help the most (he is not that concerned with our athletic reasons, he instead believes that us playing them would help the population of arkansas the reaches a higher education).

Why should Texas ever play Arkansas? Arkansas is consider by most of the country  a weaker SEC team. If Texas wins they beat an average SEC team. If Texas loses than it was to a medium tier team from a conference they are in direct competition against. Texas also has the possibility of losing  recruits. What does Texas have to gain? Why should Texas even take a chance? Its because they are a big time program that knows a loss to a inferior team isn't going to affect them. If Arkansas whats to be a big time program they need to act like one.

[Man_O_Pork]

Some state legislators have tried and failed to mandate a game.  The state legislature needs to focus on important matters, not football. 

That said, why would Arkansas play A-state?  Why?  What out-of-state paper or other media org will cover that game?  Where's the  financial incentive?  Where is the recruiting incentive? 

All it will do is split the state more.  Look at Mississippi?  Can you imagine how successful a team would be if that state were unified behind it?  It could probably fight off Bama and LSU for in-state recruits and be a contender.

Again, how does playing A-state benefit the Hogs? 

The simple matter is that it would only benefit A-state. 

I agree on just about everything you say here.

The only way I see this game happening is if we become more of a regional/national recruiter than we are now, and build up our recruiting classes to consistently being around the Top 10.  Until then, I don't think the game will happen on grounds of risking splitting the fan base/loyalties/instate-recruiting alone.

[SLC]

Not to jump into this too much, but based on your thoughts I have a few questions.

Why then, do we play Louisiana-Monroe?
Western Illinois?
Missouri State?
Boise State?
Troy?
North Texas?
Florida International?
Utah State?

What benefit does the University of Arkansas get from playing these teams?

I don't have a huge opinion one way or another, but if we're going to play scrub teams, why not play the scrub team of Arkansas?

Easy wins. 

Will get some play the other teams home state.  So the games with the teams from neighboring states or states AR can recruit do make sense from that perspective.  Did not everyone in the state hear about AR State's win over aTm?  The same is true for those other teams. 

Playing A-State has a not more potentially negative aspects than playing those other teams.  If A-State beat AR, you would hear about it for years.  More potential to legitimize A-State with AR recruits if the Hogs played them.  More potentional to lose recruits to A-state.  More potential to lose Arkansas citizens as fans to A-State.  Currently, by not playing A-state, we can be fans of both A-state and the Hogs.  If they become competitors then those fans will have to choose and will likely hate the other team.  Again, look at the Miss schools. 

[hogdiggity]

I agree on just about everything you say here.

The only way I see this game happening is if we become more of a regional/national recruiter than we are now, and build up our recruiting classes to consistently being around the Top 10.  Until then, I don't think the game will happen on grounds of risking splitting the fan base/loyalties/instate-recruiting alone.

I couldn't care much less if we play ASU or not, but if they did play, we would not loose recruits to ASU...There isn't a kid playing high school ball in Arkansas worth his weight in salt that would rather play for ASU if both were offering a scholarship.

[AudiA4]

I have mentioned us being a small state with a very small recruiting base.....

Hmm....so where does that leave the small state of Utah, seeing as how BYU and Utah are both ranked in this week's poll.  Not exactly a hotbed of football either.  And if I'm not mistaken, the final AP poll from 1999 (or thereabouts?) had THREE Mississippi schools included.  This idea of a small state is a very poor argument.  The University of Arkansas just looks ridiculous refusing to play this game. 

[SLC]

Why should Texas ever play Arkansas? Arkansas is consider by most of the country  a weaker SEC team. If Texas wins they beat an average SEC team. If Texas loses than it was to a medium tier team from a conference they are in direct competition against. Texas also has the possibility of losing  recruits. What does Texas have to gain? Why should Texas even take a chance? Its because they are a big time program that knows a loss to a inferior team isn't going to affect them. If Arkansas whats to be a big time program they need to act like one.

TX and AR have a history going back a century.  They were strong rivals in the 60s and 70s. 
Texas has more top tier recruits than TX, aTm and Texas Tech could sign combined.  Arkansas cannot fill it's team with in-state talent and field a team that will be competitive in the SEC. 
Comparing AR vs. A-state is not an accurate comparison. 

[SLC]

I couldn't care much less if we play ASU or not, but if they did play, we would not loose recruits to ASU...There isn't a kid playing high school ball in Arkansas worth his weight in salt that would rather play for ASU if both were offering a scholarship.

Maybe not now but it could in the future.

Hmm....so where does that leave the small state of Utah, seeing as how BYU and Utah are both ranked in this week's poll.  Not exactly a hotbed of football either.  And if I'm not mistaken, the final AP poll from 1999 (or thereabouts?) had THREE Mississippi schools included.  This idea of a small state is a very poor argument.  The University of Arkansas just looks ridiculous refusing to play this game. 

BYU and Utah combined do not play the schedule AR does. 
BYU, being a religious school, can actually recruit talent.  BYU has a shot at every Mormon kid in the country much like Notre Dame used to have a shot at every Catholic kid.

Mississippi has a ton of talent in it's state.  As I said earlier, if one of the Miss schools could get all the recruits in Miss, that school would be a national power.  Cannot really say the same thing about Arkansas's talent. 

Arkansas only looks ridiculous to the few who support A-state. 

[Man_O_Pork]

I couldn't care much less if we play ASU or not, but if they did play, we would not loose recruits to ASU...There isn't a kid playing high school ball in Arkansas worth his weight in salt that would rather play for ASU if both were offering a scholarship.

Oh, I agree with that, with things being the way they are right now, anyway.

But like it or not, if we played each other, I think you'd see people who are both ASU and UA fans start to pick sides.  No one can really tell the effect it would have 20 years down the road, but I'm willing to guess that you'd see some Delta loyalty to the UA lost.

If UA and ASU started playing this year, and kids in NEA started being raised as die-hard ASU fans who hate the in-state rivals, I don't think it's far-fetched to see that it could potentially hurt recruiting.

[hogdiggity]

Oh, I agree with that, with things being the way they are right now anyway.

But like it or not, if we played each other, I think you'd see people who are both ASU and UA fans start to pick sides.  No one can really tell the effect it would have 20 years later, but I'm willing to guess that you'd see some Delta loyalty to the UA lost.

If UA and ASU started playing this year, and kids in NEA started being raised as die-hard ASU fans who hate the in-state rivals, I don't think it's far-fetched to see that it could potentially hurt recruiting.

I think UCA and ASU should play for now.  I really think in the next 5-10 years, UCA will overshadow ASU...These two directly compete for recruits now....

On the fan thing, you can like both teams, I know the folks in LA that root for UL Monroe or whichever LA team may not like LSU that week, but the rest of the year they all love those tigers....

The most logical explanation I have heard was above, playing out of state taters gives you a little exposure in those areas, but how hard are we recruiting Illinois???

[pablo_escobar]

 there are no reasons for ua not to play a state

[Fatmanhog]

it seems to be such s strong topic that maybe we should. its always a why or why not but just do it and lets see where it goes. i mean are that scared to lose recruits to Astate that we wont play them? that sounds cowardly to me. i think frank was a coward and we should have put this to rest but the topic always comes up so if someone says they shouldnt play or it will never happen, then why is there so many threads on it? it sounds to me that it would peak A LOT of interest in the state. and whoi cares who it benefits. like most have said how does it benefit to play WI? it doesnt its not about benefits. the atm game and texas games are about recruiting in a way but the payoff games are not.

[pughog]

screw business reasons, screw the "whats the benefit for arkansas reason.

How about because the majority of fans in arkansas WANT to see it? Thats good enough for me.

[Wildhog]

screw business reasons, screw the "whats the benefit for arkansas reason.

How about because the majority of fans in arkansas WANT to see it? Thats good enough for me.

My brother wants to see it. He's never right about anything.

[Hawgz4Life]

Oh, I agree with that, with things being the way they are right now, anyway.

But like it or not, if we played each other, I think you'd see people who are both ASU and UA fans start to pick sides.  No one can really tell the effect it would have 20 years down the road, but I'm willing to guess that you'd see some Delta loyalty to the UA lost.

If UA and ASU started playing this year, and kids in NEA started being raised as die-hard ASU fans who hate the in-state rivals, I don't think it's far-fetched to see that it could potentially hurt recruiting.

Delta loyalty? We belong to the Boll Weevils, since no one north of Pine Bluff realizes there is a whole other section of the state. UAM! UAM! 

[DeltaBoy]

Enlighten me then.  Give me a LOGICAL reason the Hogs should play AR. State...other than state bragging rights. 

We play over half of the Sunbelt anyway.

[hogdiggity]

Delta loyalty? We belong to the Boll Weevils, since no one north of Pine Bluff realizes there is a whole other section of the state. UAM! UAM! 

You are right sir, not about UAM.  It is so funny how Little Rock folks call Pine Bluff and Hot Springs south Arkansas.  From where I sit, they are more central Arkansas.   If you want to give one away, we'll take Hot Springs, but you can keep Crime Bluff....

[PaleHorse]

The (relatively) new LSU AD thought this policy was archaic, and now they play one in-state school each year on the basis that they should keep the money in-state and generate interest.  It makes all the sense in the world.

easy for a team that has won 2 National Championships in the last 5 years.  Lets be honest - It would be a trap game for Arkansas with the possibility to lose 1 or 2 times every 20 years.  No reason to put yourself through that.

[honkyfool]

There is NO reason why the University of Arkansas should not play Arkansas State other than being cowards.

[dougieritch]

Enlighten me then.  Give me a LOGICAL reason the Hogs should play AR. State...other than state bragging rights. 

Keeps money in the state of Arkansas.

Not saying we should or should not play them but I hate giving half a mil to out of state schools to take a beating.

[Hornkiller]

Why then, do we play Louisiana-Monroe?
Western Illinois?
Missouri State?
Boise State?
Troy?
North Texas?
Florida International?
Utah State?

What benefit does the University of Arkansas get from playing these teams?

I don't have a huge opinion one way or another, but if we're going to play scrub teams, why not play the scrub team of Arkansas?

I wouldn't put Boise State and Troy in the "scub" catagory. Look I know everyone says if we've got to play a cupcake, why not ASU. My question is why not one from the Pac-10, Big XII or Big 10? Stanford, Iowa State, Indiana, someone with at least name recognition that will get us on TV.

[jkstock04]

Keeps money in the state of Arkansas.

Not saying we should or should not play them but I hate giving half a mil to out of state schools to take a beating.

It could damage us on in state recruiting.  I can just hear the A-State coaches talking to some recruit from Little Rock
Central...."You saw when we played Arkansas this year, we hung with them for most of the first half, but if we had a
player like you out there we could have challenged them even more, possibly even beat them." 

We have it tough enough as it is with our recruiting base...why give Arkansas St. equal grounds with us on in state recruiting?

[jkstock04]

By the way, this "keeps the money in the state" thing is also joke in my mind.  I mean honestly, how does this really affect us either way?  I think we'll be OK on the money end of it regardless. 

[Sivad]

Reasons:

1.  If you beat ASU, you have'nt beaten anything, a win means nothing, but if you ever lost to them, they would advertise it incessantly.
2.  ASU hates the Razorbacks with every breath they take, it is their lifelong dream game, their superbowl, their reason for being, their perceived ticket to respectablility; to Arkansas it is nothing, just a scrub game.
3.  ASU is afraid to play UCA and will not play them again.
4.  ASU will demand an equal split of the proceeds instead of the minimum scrub game payout.
5.  The Razorback games are sold out anyway, the financial arguments are hooey.
6.  It's a no-win deal for the Hogs, why sign on for that just to help a small group that daily prays for your absolute destruction.

[toshortrock]

they should,theres no reasons not to,just something for people to gripe about

[dougieritch]

It could damage us on in state recruiting.  I can just hear the A-State coaches talking to some recruit from Little Rock
Central...."You saw when we played Arkansas this year, we hung with them for most of the first half, but if we had a
player like you out there we could have challenged them even more, possibly even beat them." 

We have it tough enough as it is with our recruiting base...why give Arkansas St. equal grounds with us on in state recruiting?

The point is ASU shouldn't beat Arkansas...maybe one in a blue moon.  I highly doubt it affects recruiting in the state.  I could just see Darius Winston playing for ASU over Arkansas!  Won't happen...we play in a better conference, kids in the state dream of playing for Arkansas not ASU.

Besides why help La-Monroe, why not help an Arkansas School.  I think it would generate more interest than La-Monroe.

[Tripod1]

Is Arkansas being a small state really an excuse?  Oklahoma has about 700,000 more in population but have OU #1, OSU in top 25 and Tulsa probably going into the top 25.  Mississippi has only 200,000 more population and look at those schools, MSU, Ole Piss, Southern Miss, and Tulane.  Seems small state is not really a good reason especially with us playing all the other Sun belt Teams.

[joeyself]

Why should the U of A play A-State?  For the same reason there should be a national championship game where there is no doubt as to who is the best.  At the moment, the U of A is cloaked with a mythical "best in state."  The way to prove it is on the field. If it can play a bevy of Sun Belt teams and even 1-AA schools, the Hogs should be able to win the game. 

So, here are the reasons for playing A-State:

1.  U of A is a public school.  It's not like Sears helping Penneys.

2.  Tied with #1, the revenue would stay in the State.

3.  A-State fans will be more likely to come to Fayetteville to spend money than those from Western Illinois or the like.

4.  It will give the Razorbacks an even bigger presence in eastern Arkansas, especially if the game is played in Little Rock.   (Downside here is that the fans from Jonesboro might not have to spend the night, but then again, how many fans came up to see UL-Monroe play?)

5.  It will show the U of A is secure in its manhood.


6.  It would be a game of great interest statewide.

7.  If the vastly superior U of A can't win the game, it dispells the myth of the U of A being vastly superior.

8. Utah plays Utah State;  Arizona plays Arizona State; Iowa plays Iowa State; Clemson plays South Carolina; Florida plays FSU AND Miami; USC plays UCLA; Oklahoma plays Oklahoma State AND Tulsa; New Mexico plays New Mexico State; Washington plays Washington State; Oregon plays Oregon State; Ohio State plays Youngtown State; LSU plays Tulane; Georgia plays Georgia Southern and Georgia Tech; Kentucky plays Western Kentucky and Louisville; Michigan State plays Eastern Michigan AND Michigan; Indiana plays Ball State.... I think that's enough for the point.  Yes, I know some of these are conference games, but many are not.  Big time programs act like it.

JcS
   

[mojopig]

Im trying to explain this to a friend of mine and I could use a little help.  I have mentioned us being a small state with a very small recruiting base, a possible loss would loose us booster dollars and many fans.  I also explained that people may stop giving money to the educational side of the University of Arkansas thus lowering the value of the degree in the long term.

I need some more reasons and any economic/educational factors that go with playing a in state team would really help the most (he is not that concerned with our athletic reasons, he instead believes that us playing them would help the population of arkansas the reaches a higher education).

Probably the same reason asu doesn't play UCA.

I look at it like this... If you have company A with a large market share (fans) and company B with a smaller market share.   Both of you are competing for the same workforce (student athletes).  Why on earth would Co. A. volunteer for a taste test, so-to speak.  They already have them beat in the market so they only stand to lose. 

And the argument for keeping money in the state.... The guys in charge of these business are not focused on that..... their key performance indicator is their business winning.

[joeyself]

Probably the same reason asu doesn’t play UCA.

I look at it like this… If you have company A with a large market share (fans) and company B with a smaller market share.   Both of you are competing for the same workforce (student athletes).  Why on earth would Co. A. volunteer for a taste test, so-to speak.  They already have them beat in the market so they only stand to lose. 

But these are both state owned institutions.  This analogy, oft used as it is, doesn't quite fit.

JcS

[dougieritch]

Probably the same reason asu doesn't play UCA.

I look at it like this... If you have company A with a large market share (fans) and company B with a smaller market share.   Both of you are competing for the same workforce (student athletes).  Why on earth would Co. A. volunteer for a taste test, so-to speak.  They already have them beat in the market so they only stand to lose. 

And the argument for keeping money in the state.... The guys in charge of these business are not focused on that..... their key performance indicator is their business winning.

Not really...I have several friends that graduated from ASU or UCA but they are HOG fans.  They cheer for both schools, it is really no big deal...sure they may be divided for one game if they play each other, but that is one game, they are not going to hate the UofA b/c ASU/UCA gets murdered b/c the UofA is expected to win.

[honkyfool]

With the logic that the University of Arkansas and its fans give, is it ANY WONDER why the state is last or damn near last in everything.

[mojopig]

But these are both state owned institutions.  This analogy, oft used as it is, doesn't quite fit.

JcS

In the sense that they are competing against each other it fits.  Surely you agree that they compete???

[redbarn]

Why would ASU want a seasonal "L" on their record which is what it would be other than once in a great, great while.  Everyone wonders why Ark won't play ASU but you also have to look at it from ASU's standpoint.  I am sure they would not want the tag of being the Razorback's b*tch hung on them every season.

[joeyself]

In the sense that they are competing against each other it fits.  Surely you agree that they compete???

Not really.  If the U of A is going after the same players as A-State on a consistent basis, then something is wrong at the U of A.  Oh, A-State might make a call on a McFadden or Peyton Hillis, but if the U of A is fighting with A-State over a player instead of LSU or Ole Miss or Texas, then it may not be a player worth fighting for, right?

JcS

[joeyself]

Why would ASU want a seasonal "L" on their record which is what it would be other than once in a great, great while.  Everyone wonders why Ark won't play ASU but you also have to look at it from ASU's standpoint.  I am sure they would not want the tag of being the Razorback's b*tch hung on them every season.

A point I hadn't thought of; in years past, A-State would go to Alabama or someplace like that for a paycheck game.  Maybe they are not looking for those any longer (although I suspect Texas A&M thought it was an easy game for them when it was scheduled).

And before anyone wonders, I'm a grad of the U of A, have never been on the campus of A-State, and don't really root for them or against them.  I just see so many flaws in the excuses that have been given for years, especially now that A-State plays in a conference that Arkansas plays so often in the non-conference games.  I could see U of A not playing Arkansas Tech or any other Gulf South Conference teams, but A-State is not on that level.

JcS