JOE VS KOBE, NUMBERS DON'T LIE. DO THEY?

[1994]

As of today, if you add together rebounds, assists, steals and blocks and then subtract turnovers and fouls Joe has a plus 15 over Kobe. I know, Kobe has 856 more points but don't forget about the 824 missed shots. Thank God it's Friday.

[dotnet]

If you compared people by solely adding rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... and then subtracting turnovers and fouls, then that would be one of the worst ways to compare players that I have ever heard. 

Not only does that just seem dumb, you're taking things for granted by that statement.  You're assuming that a foul is a bad thing.  I think some fouls are good fouls.  Then you're saying that a foul (good or bad), is as bad as a turnover.  Then you're saying that rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks are all weighted equal. 

I like Joe Johnson as much as the next guy, but he doesn't compare to Kobe.  Bryant is the best all around player in the game right now.  You can legitimately argue with me, but I think you have to concede he is at least one of the best five players in the game.

[three]

Kobe is like Micheal Jordan, a great scorer and defender (at least on the ball for Kobe, not nearly like MJ was off the ball).  JJ is Pippen.  Pip was the first ever Point Forward, Joe is the best Point Forward in the league right now.  Johnson will be very good, and Atlanta has an excellent young nucleus with JJ, Josh Smith (dunk Champ last season), Josh Childress, Marvin Williams, and promising young PGs Royal Ivey (Tex. two yrs. ago) and Salim Stoudemire (sharp shooter from AZ).  This team will be good in the not so distant future........as long as Atlanta's mgmt doesn't screw it up.

[WILL CLINTON]

If you compared people by solely adding rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... and then subtracting turnovers and fouls, then that would be one of the worst ways to compare players that I have ever heard. 

Not only does that just seem dumb, you're taking things for granted by that statement.  You're assuming that a foul is a bad thing.  I think some fouls are good fouls.  Then you're saying that a foul (good or bad), is as bad as a turnover.  Then you're saying that rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks are all weighted equal. 

I like Joe Johnson as much as the next guy, but he doesn't compare to Kobe.  Bryant is the best all around player in the game right now.  You can legitimately argue with me, but I think you have to concede he is at least one of the best five players in the game.

I would argue that the best 5 players in the game are:

1.  LeBron James
2. Allen Iverson
3. Dewayne Wade
4. kevin Garnett
5. Kobe Bryant
In that order. 

[GrizzledHogFan]

I like Joe Johnson as much as the next guy, but he doesn't compare to Kobe.  Bryant is the best all around player in the game right now.  You can legitimately argue with me, but I think you have to concede he is at least one of the best five players in the game.

While I agree that Johnson isn't as good as Kobe, Kobe is definitely NOT the best all-around player in the game.  I would consider Kobe to be in the top 10 players right now, and maybe even the top 5, but no way is he the best.  LeBron James, Steve Nash, and Dwyane Wade are all better than Kobe for sure, with James being the best.  Allen Iverson is also probably better.  I believe that Joe Johnson would be somewhere in the range of 15-25, if you were to rank the best players in the NBA.

[razorbackfan4life]

Lebron James is good, but he is not the best player in the game, and he(along with everyone else on that list) will never be as good as MJ.

[WILL CLINTON]

Lebron James is good, but he is not the best player in the game, and he(along with everyone else on that list) will never be as good as MJ.

Who do you put ahead of Lebron James? he has the potential to be better than MJ.  He is better than MJ at that age, so you figure he will only get better.  If he can get a team around him, the CAVS could compete for championships for a while. 

[DOGALUM]

You guys are killing me with this Allen Iverson/Wade/Garnett stuff.  Lebron James is the only one right now that can give Kobe a run for his money. 

For the record....I'm not a big Kobe fan.....but he is the best in the league right now.

[WILL CLINTON]

You guys are killing me with this Allen Iverson/Wade/Garnett stuff.  Lebron James is the only one right now that can give Kobe a run for his money. 

For the record....I'm not a big Kobe fan.....but he is the best in the league right now.

So you're telling me, one on one, Kobe beats any of those other 4?  No way.  He is not as quick as "The Answer", big enough to bang with "The Big Ticket", and King James would dominate him.  he might be able to take "The Flash" but it would be one helluva game. 

[DOGALUM]

You guys are killing me with this Allen Iverson/Wade/Garnett stuff.  Lebron James is the only one right now that can give Kobe a run for his money. 

For the record....I'm not a big Kobe fan.....but he is the best in the league right now.

So you're telling me, one on one, Kobe beats any of those other 4?  No way.  He is not as quick as "The Answer", big enough to bang with "The Big Ticket", and King James would dominate him.  he might be able to take "The Flash" but it would be one helluva game. 

This has nothing to do with one on one.  I never said it did.

There were lots of quarterbacks in the 80s that could run faster, throw farther, and could beat Joe Montana in a "one on one" skills competition.  But as a true Quarterback, few could hang with him.  Same thing with Kobe.  As much as professional basketball looks like a one on one game from time to time, it's not.   That said, Kobe would smoke Iverson in a one on one game.

Dr J. and Kareem had a made for tv one on one game several years back.  Dr. J was much quicker, but Kareem kept backing Dr. J down and shot an insane percentage from point blank.  Dr. J on the other hand, had to rely on jump shots and could not match Kareem's percentage.

[WILL CLINTON]

You guys are killing me with this Allen Iverson/Wade/Garnett stuff.  Lebron James is the only one right now that can give Kobe a run for his money. 

For the record....I'm not a big Kobe fan.....but he is the best in the league right now.

So you're telling me, one on one, Kobe beats any of those other 4?  No way.  He is not as quick as "The Answer", big enough to bang with "The Big Ticket", and King James would dominate him.  he might be able to take "The Flash" but it would be one helluva game. 

This has nothing to do with one on one.  I never said it did.

There were lots of quarterbacks in the 80s that could run faster, throw farther, and could beat Joe Montana in a "one on one" skills competition.  But as a true Quarterback, few could hang with him.  Same thing with Kobe.  As much as professional basketball looks like a one on one game from time to time, it's not.   That said, Kobe would smoke Iverson in a one on one game.

Dr J. and Kareem had a made for tv one on one game several years back.  Dr. J was much quicker, but Kareem kept backing Dr. J down and shot an insane percentage from point blank.  Dr. J on the other hand, had to rely on jump shots and could not match Kareem's percentage.

I don't think you can compare one on one basketball to one on one skills competition in football.  In football you are passing, catching, running, etc.; in basketball you are playing against another person trying to do the same thing as you and keep you from doing the same thing as them, score.  I don't think Kobe would hang with AI, because AI would just cross him over (Kobe is not anywhere near the best one on one defender in the game, and AI has the BEST crossover, hell handles period, in the game), or use his freakishly quick first step to blow by him. 

[Lando Calrissian]

I glanced through this thread earlier, and I only just now caught the following statement:

if you add together rebounds, assists, steals and blocks and then subtract turnovers and fouls

I really don't need to add anything to that, do I.

[DOGALUM]

You guys are killing me with this Allen Iverson/Wade/Garnett stuff.  Lebron James is the only one right now that can give Kobe a run for his money. 

For the record....I'm not a big Kobe fan.....but he is the best in the league right now.

So you're telling me, one on one, Kobe beats any of those other 4?  No way.  He is not as quick as "The Answer", big enough to bang with "The Big Ticket", and King James would dominate him.  he might be able to take "The Flash" but it would be one helluva game. 

This has nothing to do with one on one.  I never said it did.

There were lots of quarterbacks in the 80s that could run faster, throw farther, and could beat Joe Montana in a "one on one" skills competition.  But as a true Quarterback, few could hang with him.  Same thing with Kobe.  As much as professional basketball looks like a one on one game from time to time, it's not.   That said, Kobe would smoke Iverson in a one on one game.

Dr J. and Kareem had a made for tv one on one game several years back.  Dr. J was much quicker, but Kareem kept backing Dr. J down and shot an insane percentage from point blank.  Dr. J on the other hand, had to rely on jump shots and could not match Kareem's percentage.

I don't think you can compare one on one basketball to one on one skills competition in football.  In football you are passing, catching, running, etc.; in basketball you are playing against another person trying to do the same thing as you and keep you from doing the same thing as them, score.  I don't think Kobe would hang with AI, because AI would just cross him over (Kobe is not anywhere near the best one on one defender in the game, and AI has the BEST crossover, hell handles period, in the game), or use his freakishly quick first step to blow by him. 

Look....if it were a one on one game, Kobe would just back off Iverson a little to eliminate the crossover.  Doesn't matter.....they don't play one on one.  IMO, Kobe is a much better player than AI, Garnett, or Wade.  James is a good one too.

[Boner]

I [CENSORED] hate Kob Bryant

I love Joe Johnson

Joe Johnson is not in Kobe's league.  And maybe nobody is.

Kobe vs. Lebron

Scoring-Kobe by far
Passing-Lebron
Rebounding-Lebron
Defense-Kobe

Edge:  Kobe for now.

[WILL CLINTON]

You guys are killing me with this Allen Iverson/Wade/Garnett stuff.  Lebron James is the only one right now that can give Kobe a run for his money. 

For the record....I'm not a big Kobe fan.....but he is the best in the league right now.

So you're telling me, one on one, Kobe beats any of those other 4?  No way.  He is not as quick as "The Answer", big enough to bang with "The Big Ticket", and King James would dominate him.  he might be able to take "The Flash" but it would be one helluva game. 

This has nothing to do with one on one.  I never said it did.

There were lots of quarterbacks in the 80s that could run faster, throw farther, and could beat Joe Montana in a "one on one" skills competition.  But as a true Quarterback, few could hang with him.  Same thing with Kobe.  As much as professional basketball looks like a one on one game from time to time, it's not.   That said, Kobe would smoke Iverson in a one on one game.

Dr J. and Kareem had a made for tv one on one game several years back.  Dr. J was much quicker, but Kareem kept backing Dr. J down and shot an insane percentage from point blank.  Dr. J on the other hand, had to rely on jump shots and could not match Kareem's percentage.

I don't think you can compare one on one basketball to one on one skills competition in football.  In football you are passing, catching, running, etc.; in basketball you are playing against another person trying to do the same thing as you and keep you from doing the same thing as them, score.  I don't think Kobe would hang with AI, because AI would just cross him over (Kobe is not anywhere near the best one on one defender in the game, and AI has the BEST crossover, hell handles period, in the game), or use his freakishly quick first step to blow by him. 

Look....if it were a one on one game, Kobe would just back off Iverson a little to eliminate the crossover.  Doesn't matter.....they don't play one on one.  IMO, Kobe is a much better player than AI, Garnett, or Wade.  James is a good one too.

It's just a matter of opinion since we will never see Kobe vs. AI, or Garnett, or Wade, or LeBron.  It just so happens that your opinion is wrong though.  

[wupigsuey]

If you compared people by solely adding rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... and then subtracting turnovers and fouls, then that would be one of the worst ways to compare players that I have ever heard. 

Not only does that just seem dumb, you're taking things for granted by that statement.  You're assuming that a foul is a bad thing.  I think some fouls are good fouls.  Then you're saying that a foul (good or bad), is as bad as a turnover.  Then you're saying that rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks are all weighted equal. 

I like Joe Johnson as much as the next guy, but he doesn't compare to Kobe.  Bryant is the best all around player in the game right now.  You can legitimately argue with me, but I think you have to concede he is at least one of the best five players in the game.

I would argue that the best 5 players in the game are:

1.  LeBron James
2. Allen Iverson
3. Dewayne Wade
4. kevin Garnett
5. Kobe Bryant
In that order. 

Interesting no Shaq...not arguing... just interesting

[GrizzledHogFan]

Kobe:
665/1489 (44.7%) field goals, 125/358 (34.9%) 3-pointers, 501/594 (84.3%) free throws, 1956 total points, 303 rebounds, 263 assists, 100 steals, 23 blocks, 173 turnovers, 164 fouls

LeBron:
642/1348 (47.6%) field goals, 95/282 (33.7%) 3-pointers, 428/589 (72.7%) free throws, 1807 total points, 410 rebounds, 399 assists, 91 steals, 55 blocks, 196 turnovers, 132 fouls

Those are the numbers for the current season so far.

[GrizzledHogFan]

If you compared people by solely adding rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... and then subtracting turnovers and fouls, then that would be one of the worst ways to compare players that I have ever heard. 

Not only does that just seem dumb, you're taking things for granted by that statement.  You're assuming that a foul is a bad thing.  I think some fouls are good fouls.  Then you're saying that a foul (good or bad), is as bad as a turnover.  Then you're saying that rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks are all weighted equal. 

I like Joe Johnson as much as the next guy, but he doesn't compare to Kobe.  Bryant is the best all around player in the game right now.  You can legitimately argue with me, but I think you have to concede he is at least one of the best five players in the game.

I would argue that the best 5 players in the game are:

1.  LeBron James
2. Allen Iverson
3. Dewayne Wade
4. kevin Garnett
5. Kobe Bryant
In that order. 

Interesting no Shaq...not arguing... just interesting

Shaq is very, very good at what he does, but he's not a great all-around player.

[cubbie]

NBA SUX!!!!

[3kgthog]

Kobe is the best scorer, not the best player in the NBA. The best player in the NBA should be someone that A) people want to play with B) you can build around C) someone that makes the players around him better instead of making them bystanders and onlookers. That guy is Lebron James. He rebounds, he can score 40 if he needs to, he passes, and eventually he'll be a good defender. Give Lebron a little more help and I will take the Cavs straight up against Kobe and the Lakers any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Hog_from_Tulsa]

A whole lot of points for a player on a team that goes nowhere......yea for Kobe.

Aren't the Clippers the best team in LA this year.....that would embarass me.

[hogtheball]

Kobe is like Micheal Jordan, a great scorer and defender (at least on the ball for Kobe, not nearly like MJ was off the ball).  JJ is Pippen.  Pip was the first ever Point Forward, Joe is the best Point Forward in the league right now.  Johnson will be very good, and Atlanta has an excellent young nucleus with JJ, Josh Smith (dunk Champ last season), Josh Childress, Marvin Williams, and promising young PGs Royal Ivey (Tex. two yrs. ago) and Salim Stoudemire (sharp shooter from AZ).  This team will be good in the not so distant future........as long as Atlanta's mgmt doesn't screw it up.

Atlanta's management isn't going to have any choice.  Atlanta ranks dead last in attendance in the entire NBA  http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance.  And they are arguably THE WORST team in the NBA (only Charlotte and New York have worse records).   Joe Johnson is good, but he is the only player on his team. He's padding his stats just like he wanted to when he left Pheonix to go be "the man" in Atlanta.   

This team should be disbanded immediately. JJ should never have left Pheonix.

[murray-vegas]

Joe Johnson isn't one of the top 20 players in the league IMO. I love how James has no help(Iggy has been an AS in Cleveland) and Kobe has so much help(his teammates suck). Also I wish I could find the stat about James. He has the worst shooting percentage in games to win or tie out of all the major stars of the NBA(Saw it on the Denver.Cle game about a month back). When the game is on the line, I think I want Kobe to have it because he tends to get a foul call and when he doesn't, seems to be money.

[brichte]

KG is the Best Player in the game all around or not...Please get him out of Minny.

[Josef]

I would say the 4 best all around players in the NBA right now LeBron James (30 ppg, 6.9 rpg,6.8 assists per game), Allen Iverson (33.2 ppg, 7.4 assists per game) steve nash (20 ppg, 11 assists per game) and Shawn Marion(22 ppg, 12.4 rpg). Kobe is a good scorer but he refuses to get his teammates involved....Odom is a good player and if you watch them play they have some other good potential role players. Dwayne is on his way and he is clutch.... I just watched Iverson drop 47 points and 12 assists tonight (17-28 shooting) and this guy is not even 6 ft tall. For the guy who said "Kobe is like Jordan"....what a joke. Never was, is not, and never will be. Dont disgrace a living legend.

[SGH2244]

If I had to pick one player to start a team with, it would be none of those guys.  I would take Steve Nash.  The guy is just knows the game.  If you want number guys you take Kobe, Garnett, LeBron etc.  But if you want to win, build a team with players like Nash.  And LeBron or Kobe will never be half the winner or player MJ was, no matter how much talent you put around them.  To greedy, especially Kobe....

SGH

[FLKeysGuy]

If you compared people by solely adding rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... and then subtracting turnovers and fouls, then that would be one of the worst ways to compare players that I have ever heard. 

Not only does that just seem dumb, you're taking things for granted by that statement.  You're assuming that a foul is a bad thing.  I think some fouls are good fouls.  Then you're saying that a foul (good or bad), is as bad as a turnover.  Then you're saying that rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks are all weighted equal. 

I like Joe Johnson as much as the next guy, but he doesn't compare to Kobe.  Bryant is the best all around player in the game right now.  You can legitimately argue with me, but I think you have to concede he is at least one of the best five players in the game.

I would argue that the best 5 players in the game are:

1.  LeBron James
2. Allen Iverson
3. Dewayne Wade
4. kevin Garnett
5. Kobe Bryant
In that order. 

Interesting no Shaq...not arguing... just interesting

Shaq is very, very good at what he does, but he's not a great all-around player.

Twelve inches shorter, and Shaq is working at Burger King.

I'm one who believes Jordan was the best ever.  Kobe is damn close, and I can't stand the guy.  Right now, Kobe's the best. 

I can't believe I just typed that.  Oh no, here it comes... 

[murray-vegas]

Just for giggles, the top 5 "efficent" players in the NBA this season are:

                       GP MPG  PTS   RPG APG STPG BLKPG
1) Elton Brand    54 39.8  25.7  10.3  2.8  1.1  2.57 
2) Kevin Garnett 57 38.8  21.7  12.0  4.3  1.2  1.37 
3) Shawn Marion 56 41.2  22.0  12.4  1.8  2.0  1.89
4) LaBron James  59 44.3  30.6  6.9   6.8  1.5  0.93 
5) Kobe Bryant    56 40.7  34.9  5.4   4.7  1.8  0.41 

Efficency is rated in these categories(GP MPG PTS RPG APG STPG BLKPG)

In case you were wondering, the NBAs least efficent player to play more than 10 games is Von Wafer of the LA Lakers, rating a flat 0

[Richard_white]

There is no comparison to Kobe and Joe

[Lokirain]

I get so sick of hearing about Kobe. Joe went to a terrible team, now he'll just be the best player on a crap team forever. Does anyone remember when the Hawks used to be good? They were still wearing booty shorts.

[Fletch]

I [CENSORED] hate Kob Bryant

I love Joe Johnson

Joe Johnson is not in Kobe's league.  And maybe nobody is.

Kobe vs. Lebron

Scoring-Kobe by far
Passing-Lebron
Rebounding-Lebron
Defense-Kobe

Edge:  Kobe for now.

That's a good analysis. Some have an anti Kobe bias and that is legitimate, but there is absolutely not one shred of credible analysis that can show he is not one of the top 2 players in the game right now. AI, Garnett, Wade are great players, but not the quality of Kobe.

[DOGALUM]

I [CENSORED] hate Kob Bryant

I love Joe Johnson

Joe Johnson is not in Kobe's league.  And maybe nobody is.

Kobe vs. Lebron

Scoring-Kobe by far
Passing-Lebron
Rebounding-Lebron
Defense-Kobe

Edge:  Kobe for now.

That's a good analysis. Some have an anti Kobe bias and that is legitimate, but there is absolutely not one shred of credible analysis that can show he is not one of the top 2 players in the game right now. AI, Garnett, Wade are great players, but not the quality of Kobe.

HELL YEAH!!!

[RBLtoHOG]

NBA SUX!!!!

and there ya have it

[Lokirain]

The NBA does suck. Remember when it used to be a big deal? When they had stars, no just big guys with no skills. I am glad they stopped drafting kids right out of HS.

[clemensrules01]

If you compared people by solely adding rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks... and then subtracting turnovers and fouls, then that would be one of the worst ways to compare players that I have ever heard. 

Not only does that just seem dumb, you're taking things for granted by that statement.  You're assuming that a foul is a bad thing.  I think some fouls are good fouls.  Then you're saying that a foul (good or bad), is as bad as a turnover.  Then you're saying that rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks are all weighted equal. 

I like Joe Johnson as much as the next guy, but he doesn't compare to Kobe.  Bryant is the best all around player in the game right now.  You can legitimately argue with me, but I think you have to concede he is at least one of the best five players in the game.

I would argue that the best 5 players in the game are:

1.  LeBron James
2. Allen Iverson
3. Dewayne Wade
4. kevin Garnett
5. Kobe Bryant
In that order. 

you would lose that argument. the best player is kobe, no matter how much you hate him. one on one, kobe would beat everyone on that list.

the top 5 are:
1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Nash
4. Garnett
5. A.I.

[hogtheball]

1 on 1? Meadowlark lemon would beat all those guys with his half-court hook shot.