How Much Of This Is Still Lack of Talent?

[DeltaBoy]

This bunch would have a tough time winning the Sunbelt!

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Talent we have , ability to use it not so much

Pretty good summary right there of BB's time here

[pigskenG]

My opinion . .  you either recruit well overall, or you switch to the spread and consentrate on a QB and WR's.
Bama can run what they want right now, they recruited #1, #1, #1, #1, etc. LSU, GA, FL, TN, AU, TA&M fall in right behind them. You think Les Miles lasted as long as he did at LSU because he was a good coach ? The spread is the equalizer right now (although I don't like the offense, I call it the high school offense). I was excited when we got Coach Bielema, I thought we were lucky to get him, and I hope he can get things turned around.
Right now, my recruiting wish is for more huge 6'5 - 6'7 300+ pound OL, 6'2 - 6'3 230 LB's with better than average speed, a couple of rangy safeties with speed and CB's, same description. I think we are ok at WR, RB, TE, DL.
I think Allen needs to quit feeling sorry things aren't going well for him and become more aggressive,
or give Kelly a chance.

[longtimeHogfan]

So is Saban came here, he wouldn't boost recruiting?

I don't know if this refers back to my post but in mine I did leave room for 'some very limited exceptions.'

[12247]

Recruiting can cover up poor coaching to a point and coaching can cover up poor recruiting to a point. 

We have talent enough to win 8 or with blessings and good luck maybe 9.  WE DO NOT HAVE THE COACHING TO WIN 6 WITHOUT BLESSINGS AND GOOD LUCK.  Bret Bielema hasn't been worth a damn as a winning coach from day one.  He tries to operate a scheme that we cannot recruit to at a high level enough to win unless his coaching is excellent.  His coaching is horrible.  He does not understand coaching details, H C leadership, mental approach, in game decisions, in game situations, in game solutions, closing the deal, the feel of the team, the needs of the assistants, substitution patterns, conditioning, training, developing of personnel, he has nothing of value to give to us in terms of establishing a winner.  His coaches know this and cannot say crap about it.  Some of the players know this and cannot say crap about it.  Both coaches and players display their knowledge of this come gameday.  Look at ALLEN.  This Kid did well in High School, set on our bench for 3 years and kept quite, came in early last year with a good attitude as a starter and now look at him, a beaten down shadow of himself.  Now multiply Allen by 100 and you can see what we put on the field each game.  The freshmen and few transfers we get are fresh, good attitude, ready to play, wanting to excel, no mental baggage, and they do go playing on past training, conditioning and mental toughness.

THERE ISN'T A TEAM IN FOOTBALL THAT COULD NOT USE MORE TALENT BUT THAT IS NOT, IS NOT, IS NOT, IS NOT, OUR LARGEST PROBLEM.  WE NEED LEADERSHIP WHEN DEFINED AS COACHING, TRAINING, MENTALLY TOUGH, ALIVE, AWAKE, SCHEMING, IN THE GAME, REFUSING TO BE DENIED, FIRE IN THE BELLY.  WE GOT NOTHING IN THIS DEPARTMENT.

[12247]

For you folks that think we are 3 or 4 good O-linemen away from competing in the SEC at a high level, I say horse crap.

[IMABIELEMA]

It was NEVER a lack of talent. 

How Much Of This Is Still Lack of Talent? Not much. The talent is there.

no they built this team as a power football team which means bigger but slower usually. We have talent and speed . Just need a plan to get them on the field . Chase, TJ and Jones are as fast as it gets . We just need to get them the ball more in space . Talent we have , ability to use it not so much

The talent is there. QB had another off and on day.  Had he consistently made the easy throws, not held onto it so long, seen the open receivers it would've been a different outcome.

You guys actually think the talent is there?  Let's take the top 4 teams in the SEC.  IMO it's Bama, AU, UF, UGA (these could change as the season goes on).  How many of our starters would start for those teams?  Maybe 3? 4?  We have AVERAGE talent with POOR coaching. 

[Youngsta71701]

This is the problem with Hogville. I disagree. The talent is not there. True we have some talented players but it takes more than one or two. It takes an entire team and compared to other teams we have less. This is not an opinion of mine but of football experts whose job it is to evaluate football recruits.

So we have less talent than TCU although our recruiting is always better than theirs year in and year out? Make sense of that for me please . Some of these teams have more talent than us simply because they develop talent better than us and they use their talent better than us. Period.

[Boss Hog in the Arkansas]

Sosa Agim would be a playmaker no matter what team he's on. Not being able to set him up to make plays falls on coaching

Having to rotate players on the offensive line because you still haven't found "the missing piece" isn't on the players. That's poor coaching and development

[BallHog1]

Bret didn't seem to have these issues at Whiskey! 5 years later and we have a shell of a team!

Yeah, we were dominating the year before Brett got here weren't we?

[Youngsta71701]

You guys actually think the talent is there?  Let's take the top 4 teams in the SEC.  IMO it's Bama, AU, UF, UGA (these could change as the season goes on).  How many of our starters would start for those teams?  Maybe 3? 4?  We have AVERAGE talent with POOR coaching.

We were talented enough to beat both TCU and Texas A&M and we just didn't get it done. Period.

[Boss Hog in the Arkansas]

So we have less talent than TCU although our recruiting is always better than theirs year in and year out? Make sense of that for me please . Some of these teams have more talent than us simply because they develop talent better than us and they use their talent better than us. Period.

Bad coaching/development can make great players look average (think muschamp at florida) and the opposite can also be said (Chris Peterson at Washington)

[Youngsta71701]

Sosa Agim would be a playmaker no matter what team he's on. Not being able to set him up to make plays falls on coaching

Having to rotate players on the offensive line because you still haven't found "the missing piece" isn't on the players. That's poor coaching and development

Matching up Santos Ramirez one on one with Christian Kirk with no help isn't about talent it's about coaching.

[Youngsta71701]

Bad coaching/development can make great players look average (think muschamp at florida) and the opposite can also be said (Chris Peterson at Washington)

Agreed 100%. You have to have or find the perfect mix. And right now we don't seem to have it.

[hogmolar]

Cheney and Pittman looked like all world coaches Sat night for Georgia. 

[jm]

You guys actually think the talent is there?  Let's take the top 4 teams in the SEC.  IMO it's Bama, AU, UF, UGA (these could change as the season goes on).  How many of our starters would start for those teams?  Maybe 3? 4?  We have AVERAGE talent with POOR coaching.

There are teams with less talent than us that perform better.

[swinemaster]

Recruiting rankings and talent are different than roster building.  If you have four 4 star tight ends and are playing walkons on the Oline, you have good recruiting rankings but are terrible at roster building. 

We are talented at certain positions.  But our defense has been terribly bad since the loss of Flowers, Spaight, and Philon.  Those were Petrino recruits by the way.

I would say that our offense has been more than good enough to win last year and the first 3 games of this year.  Defense continues to be our problem. And we are NOT talented enough there. 

And we are not DEEP enough to field backups and special teams that can compete.

[FATHAWG08]

What sticks out to me is Speed are our lack of it.

[hogsanity]

A&M recruits top 10 classes every year. Arkansas has never had a top ten class.

Kind of blows up the " we are just as talented as A&M " theory.

[IMABIELEMA]

We were talented enough to beat both TCU and Texas A&M and we just didn't get it done. Period.

I said NOTHING about A&M & TCU.  A&M is a freaking Dumster fire and TCU owned us 28-7.  We have zero talent to compete with the SEC big dogs. Alabama & Auburn will do with us as they please.  UGA would kill us,  LSU game is up in the air at this point due to their lack of QB play.  We don't have the talent to win the SEC,  which should be our goal. 

[IMABIELEMA]

There are teams with less talent than us that perform better.

Not the point.  Coaching is a huge problem,  recruiting is an even bigger problem that will never change.

[hogsanity]

There are teams with less talent than us that perform better.

Against a sec schedule?

[S.A.D.C]

This theory has always been nonsense, and was proven wrong by BP.

BS

He used JC and overlooked players better than ANYONE.  Player development was also top notch.

His biggest factor was top QB play.

I know this might blow the minds of people who can't comprehend how two things can be true at the same time but:
BP wasn't any better than any other coach we have ever had, including the current, at recruiting top level players (in terms of ranking).  If you expect Arkansas to stack the roster with 5* you are gonna be very disappointed.  BP never did that...  And it is an undeniable fact that his timing was perfect:  Mallet falls out of the B1G at the perfect time when we had a full stable of in-state kids at the right positions for him.  A perfect storm for BP.  Why his worshipers can't concede this simple fact blows my mind.
But what BP could do was recruit the RIGHT players for his system- as said above- often overlooked, not often highly rated- and develop the hell out of them.  The fact that BP haters can't knowledge this fact also blows my mind. 

So did BP prove that you could recruit better at Arkansas.  No: the ratings were not much different than anyone else.  And Yes: the coach with the right system and ability to identify and develop players at a high level can win a lot here.  The later is just not happening right now. 

[IronHog]

I know this might blow the minds of people who can't comprehend how two things can be true at the same time but:
BP wasn't any better than any other coach we have ever had, including the current, at recruiting top level players (in terms of ranking).  If you expect Arkansas to stack the roster with 5* you are gonna be very disappointed.  BP never did that...  And it is an undeniable fact that his timing was perfect:  Mallet falls out of the B1G at the perfect time when we had a full stable of in-state kids at the right positions for him.  A perfect storm for BP.  Why his worshipers can't concede this simple fact blows my mind.
But what BP could do was recruit the RIGHT players for his system- as said above- often overlooked, not often highly rated- and develop the hell out of them.  The fact that BP haters can't knowledge this fact also blows my mind. 

So did BP prove that you could recruit better at Arkansas.  No: the ratings were not much different than anyone else.  And Yes: the coach with the right system and ability to identify and develop players at a high level can win a lot here.  The later is just not happening right now. 

His retention and development were top notch.....very few washouts


BB had a backboard breaker buried on the TE/LB/DE depth chart?

[hogsanity]

I know this might blow the minds of people who can't comprehend how two things can be true at the same time but:
BP wasn't any better than any other coach we have ever had, including the current, at recruiting top level players (in terms of ranking).  If you expect Arkansas to stack the roster with 5* you are gonna be very disappointed.  BP never did that...  And it is an undeniable fact that his timing was perfect:  Mallet falls out of the B1G at the perfect time when we had a full stable of in-state kids at the right positions for him.  A perfect storm for BP.  Why his worshipers can't concede this simple fact blows my mind.
But what BP could do was recruit the RIGHT players for his system- as said above- often overlooked, not often highly rated- and develop the hell out of them.  The fact that BP haters can't knowledge this fact also blows my mind. 

So did BP prove that you could recruit better at Arkansas.  No: the ratings were not much different than anyone else.  And Yes: the coach with the right system and ability to identify and develop players at a high level can win a lot here.  The later is just not happening right now. 

I agree with this, but you left out one thing, BP still could not get the players ON DEFENSE to stop the top teams in the league.

Last Sat they scored 43 and LOST. Just like the game in 2015 against MSU n FAy where they scored 50 and lost. At some point you have to stop asking the offense to seemingly score 60 to beat teams.

[IronHog]

I agree with this, but you left out one thing, BP still could not get the players ON DEFENSE to stop the top teams in the league.

Last Sat they scored 43 and LOST. Just like the game in 2015 against MSU n FAy where they scored 50 and lost. At some point you have to stop asking the offense to seemingly score 60 to beat teams.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  BPs defenses were erratic but not horrible.  Frankiln Juice, and Highsmith (two JC kids) would be huge upgrades at LBer currently.   


BPs biggest issue was special teams in big games particularly punt .....his special teams were good otherwise

[IronHog]

I agree with this, but you left out one thing, BP still could not get the players ON DEFENSE to stop the top teams in the league.

Last Sat they scored 43 and LOST. Just like the game in 2015 against MSU n FAy where they scored 50 and lost. At some point you have to stop asking the offense to seemingly score 60 to beat teams.

Or you could admit it's 2017

[hogsanity]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  BPs defenses were erratic but not horrible.  Frankiln Juice, and Highsmith (two JC kids) would be huge upgrades at LBer currently.   


BPs biggest issue was special teams in big games particularly punt .....his special teams were good otherwise

I did not say his defenses were not better than what we have now, I said they were not capable of stopping the top teams in the league. Been a problem at Ar going on 3 decades now.

[IronHog]

I did not say his defenses were not better than what we have now, I said they were not capable of stopping the top teams in the league. Been a problem at Ar going on 3 decades now.

Really the only team that steamrolled them was Cam Newton and the SEC refs in 2010.


In a scheme like BPs if the offense has a chance to win it the D did its job.

[jm]

Against a sec schedule?

We have had defenses that, in my opinion, were no more talented than this one that performed better.

[hogsanity]

Really the only team that steamrolled them was Cam Newton and the SEC refs in 2010.


In a scheme like BPs if the offense has a chance to win it the D did its job.

UMMM, Bama and LSU had their way with them in 2011.

[Porkette]

Reading this thread, I feel like people are just talking around each other. One group is talking about what we would need to win the SEC (which would probably also mean we were a top 5/playoff team), and one group is talking about why we can't seem to stop losing and why we're basically the WORST team in the league, right now and recently. Two different conversations when it comes to this subject.

[razorbackfaninar]

This is the problem with Hogville. I disagree. The talent is not there. True we have some talented players but it takes more than one or two. It takes an entire team and compared to other teams we have less. This is not an opinion of mine but of football experts whose job it is to evaluate football recruits.

If you just rely solely on the experts who evaluate football recruits then we should have beaten TCU.  We have out recruited them based on player ranking.  We do have talent on this team, but even if we didn't, what you are seeing is a team that can not execute the basic fundamentals of football.  I have seen teams that are less talented play, and lose, to a team with superior talent but still play fundamentally sound football.  In my opinion there is no shame in that. That is not what Arkansas is doing.  The game-plan is not being designed to maximize the talent of the players that we do have. The players do not seem as well conditioned as they should be to be able to withstand the 2nd half and 4th quarter, and the defensive scheme has not significantly changed from what has been failing us for the last several years. The switch to the 3-4 has basically been window dressing , but has not addressed the glaring issues on the defense.

In my opinion the coaches have stubbornly clung to what they believe should be working instead of truly evaluating why what they are trying to do is not working and attempting to go in a different direction. The deficiencies are clear to see for anyone with a minimal amount of football knowledge and they have been repeated ad nauseam.  The coaches can see them as well as the arm-chair quarterback.  The fact that you see the coaches attempting the same things that haven't been working with the same players is that they believe that their plan and scheme is the correct one and they feel that the reason that it is not successful is that the players aren't good enough or executing the plan the way they should be.  To a degree this is true. But I believe that it is true because they are asking players to do things that don't maximize their ability.  If I try to drive in a screw with a hammer, it won't work right.  I can apply enough brute force over time to eventually successfully hammer in a screw.  That success might make me think that I was right all along to be using that hammer.  I can point to it and say look we stuck with that hammer and it paid off like we knew it would .  Never mind that we wasted 200 good screws trying to drive them in with a hammer and broke and splintered the board we we were working on we got that screw in just like I knew we would.  That is where we are I think with the coaches.  They know a hammer is a good tool and that you can use it to drive things in but it isn't working on all these screws.  They can see the screws aren't going in right like they should but they just keep trying different hammers instead of getting a screw driver. In other words they see the issues, but the solutions they apply to correct them aren't working. The solutions to me seem to indicate they think the issue is with the execution and not the plan. 

[Hogdomer]

Against a sec schedule?

Again, TCU, Texas Tech, Toledo and Rutgers are not SEC team.  Mizzou is but they are not as talented and our record against them is 1-2.

[razorbackfaninar]

There are teams with less talent than us that perform better.

I agree with this.  We may not have the talent overall that Bama, AU or others have but there are teams with much less talent than us that play better, more consistent fundamentally sound football. You can do the fundamentals no matter how much talent you have, you may still lose, but if you put your best talent on the field with a good game plan and execute it to the best of your ability and lose, then you did everything possible, and right now we aren't doing that.

[FATHAWG08]

Our talent level is not were it needs to be to compete consistently in the SEC West year in year out.  There is only 4/6 teams in the country that can.

1 Alabama
2 Ohio St.
3 Oklahoma
4 Florida St.
5 Clemson ( looks to be on this level now)
6 Michigan

[razorbackfaninar]

Our talent level is not were it needs to be to compete consistently in the SEC West year in year out.  There is only 4/6 teams in the country that can.

1 Alabama
2 Ohio St.
3 Oklahoma
4 Florida St.
5 Clemson ( looks to be on this level now)
6 Michigan

Right but there are more than 6 teams that play consistently competitive football.  That is what I thought we would get with Bielema.  I thought we may lose games but we would never get blown out. We would win more than we lose and every weekend whoever we played would know they were going to have to earn a hard fought win. I would be ok with having a team like that year in and year out. Be in the hunt for the West every few years win it once maybe twice a decade or so, but always finish in the top half of the league.  I thought we would be fundamentally sound and the days of embarrassing losses were over. 

[phadedhawg]

I've never seen Arkansas have the ability to recruit talent on both sides of the ball.  Over the years some coaches did better recruiting offensive pieces and other defensive but yeah...we've never had a complete team. 

[IronHog]

UMMM, Bama and LSU had their way with them in 2011.

Both returned punts for TDs, both had tons of NFL talent on defense.


Arkansas probably gives LSU all they want if not for the circumstances.

[Iwastherein1969]

He fell into a QB and a year when Arkansas had three top-flight WR's.   Otherwise his recruiting were pretty much less the SEC quality.  Same as every other coach since we joined the SEC.

did he also "fall into Tyler Wilson and Joe Adams" ?  matters not whether we fell into, bumped into, ran them over, forced them to attend the UA the point is we had far better talent when Petrino was here...ever hear the old saying, "I'd rather be lucky than good" ?  And that's conceding your BS about how lucky Petrino was....I believe the better talent you have the luckier you get....for some reason it almost always works out that way

[Iwastherein1969]

Both returned punts for TDs, both had tons of NFL talent on defense.


Arkansas probably gives LSU all they want if not for the circumstances.

we were the #3 ranked team in the nation leading into LSU week that year...apparently that's not good enough for some people

[RazorbackAlways]

This isn't intended as a defense of BB, I think he needs to go, will feel that way even if we managed to make a bowl this year.

But to my eye, we still look woefully slow on both sides of the ball and I felt, especially as the game went on, that the Aggies simply had better players.

Are we losing games like this in Februrary?

Lacking talent? No. Fire BB? Yes.

[Porkchop#1]

I said NOTHING about A&M & TCU.  A&M is a freaking Dumster fire and TCU owned us 28-7.  We have zero talent to compete with the SEC big dogs. Alabama & Auburn will do with us as they please.  UGA would kill us,  LSU game is up in the air at this point due to their lack of QB play.  We don't have the talent to win the SEC,  which should be our goal.

They can get some cat off the intramural ping pong team, and in 3 days have him ready to slice & dice our defense from can to can't.  He'd look like Joe Namath against us.

[Porkchop#1]

UMMM, Bama and LSU had their way with them in 2011.

Ummm, they also played for the national championship that season.  UMmmm.

[pigskenG]

In recruiting we are usually behind Bama, LSU, AU, TA&M, GA, TN, FL . . . . SoCar & Ole Miss got a couple of classes better than us, but usually we go back and forth with them and M St., Usually ahead of Mo, KY and Vandy.  So look at the conference standings this year so far or how it ended last year and tell me if you think recruiting plays into it.  We still can hold our own and split with most of these teams the last five years except for Bama and A&M.

[presidenthog]

He fell into a QB and a year when Arkansas had three top-flight WR's.   Otherwise his recruiting were pretty much less the SEC quality.  Same as every other coach since we joined the SEC.

Wrong. He could evaluate high level D linemen. Bret has shown he can not, and can't even field 4, so we switched to 3.


All of BP's linemen are gone, and the offensive and defensive line are the 2 weakest spots on this team.

[Hawg2afault]

Lack of talent and development.  I've never been impressed with the strength coach.  We are big and slow.  NO TRACK SPEED.

[hawgon]

Hard to say.  Kids always look more talented when they are well coached and playing fast and loose.  A new coach might have this thing turned around in a hurry.  Imagine if a coach came in and found ways to get guys like Hammonds on the field instead of looking for excuses to keep them off.

[IronHog]

we were the #3 ranked team in the nation leading into LSU week that year...apparently that's not good enough for some people

We can put up some vids of just how fast Arkansas was at that time.....


Apparently all the in state skill recruits in BP era were hits and most have been misses under BB?

Heck BP won lots of games with the Jones boys but Jackson is a non factor?

I don't buy that.

[Redhogs]

If ALL the excuse makers spent half as much time demanding excellence and improvement instead of justifying a failing program and the "reasons"  for it, AR. football would be in allot better place. Most of this crap has been talked about add nausea for the past 5 years and they never change..why do you think that is?