1977 Razorbacks Team - national champions?

[redleg]

The 1977 team finished 11-1 (only loss was vs Texas 9-13, and there were a number of questionable calls in that game), beat #2 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl 31-6, and finished #3 in the AP and UPI polls.

But there have been numerous polls and rating systems that have been around for decades that give out recognized titles to teams over the years.
One such rating system is the Rothman (FACT) mathematical rating system, a system that was in use from 1968 to 2006. This system gave teams shares of college football national championships if they deserve a share based on a mathematical equation.
The 1977 national championship, according to the R(FACT) rating system, is shared by Notre Dame, Texas, and Arkansas. It is the only time in school history outside of 1964, that the Hogs have been given recognition for a national title.

My question is:
Why doesn't the university go ahead and accept this honor and claim a title for that year?! I would! Hell look at Alabama, and how many they claim! 

Unless Wikipedia changes it down the line, they currently list Arkansas as a national champion for that season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

[mhsbc59]

ill take it

[99toLife]

The 1977 team finished 11-1 (only loss was vs Texas 9-13, and there were a number of questionable calls in that game), beat #2 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl 31-6, and finished #3 in the AP and UPI polls.

But there have been numerous polls and rating systems that have been around for decades that give out recognized titles to teams over the years.
One such rating system is the Rothman (FACT) mathematical rating system, a system that was in use from 1968 to 2006. This system gave teams shares of college football national championships if they deserve a share based on a mathematical equation.
The 1977 national championship, according to the R(FACT) rating system, is shared by Notre Dame, Texas, and Arkansas. It is the only time in school history outside of 1964, that the Hogs have been given recognition for a national title.

My question is:
Why doesn't the university go ahead and accept this honor and claim a title for that year?! I would! Hell look at Alabama, and how many they claim! 

Unless Wikipedia changes it down the line, they currently list Arkansas as a national champion for that season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

if it makes you feel better then claim it,  still doesn't change anything.

[Tusks]

I might be wrong but we kind of fluked ourselves in the TX game.  It was a very windy day, Steve Little record FG windy day.

There was a clock malfunction and one of the qtrs when the hogs had the wind got shortened around 6:00 minutes I believe.  Well the refs just tacked the missing 6:00 minutes onto a qtr when the hogs were against the wind.  So who knows if that made a difference.

Kind of typical AR experience.

Sports illustrated did an article in the late 80s on the best teams in the history of college football to not win a NC and that team was like 4th.

[pigture perfect]

Take it!

[hogcards]

Wasn't it something like Sporting News, Sports Illustrated or Playboy that claimed we were the National Champs?

[redleg]

if it makes you feel better then claim it,  still doesn't change anything.

It would change Arkansas' claimed national championships from 1 to 2, so yeah, it would change something despite any defeatist attitudes.

[Tusks]

Wasn't it something like Sporting News, Sports Illustrated or Playboy that claimed we were the National Champs?

Funny that a few years later rick Schaffer and his moral compass boycotted SID info to Playboy because well they were Playboy.  SMH

[AirWarren]

The 1977 team finished 11-1 (only loss was vs Texas 9-13, and there were a number of questionable calls in that game), beat #2 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl 31-6, and finished #3 in the AP and UPI polls.

But there have been numerous polls and rating systems that have been around for decades that give out recognized titles to teams over the years.
One such rating system is the Rothman (FACT) mathematical rating system, a system that was in use from 1968 to 2006. This system gave teams shares of college football national championships if they deserve a share based on a mathematical equation.
The 1977 national championship, according to the R(FACT) rating system, is shared by Notre Dame, Texas, and Arkansas. It is the only time in school history outside of 1964, that the Hogs have been given recognition for a national title.

My question is:
Why doesn't the university go ahead and accept this honor and claim a title for that year?! I would! Hell look at Alabama, and how many they claim! 

Unless Wikipedia changes it down the line, they currently list Arkansas as a national champion for that season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

Like 1964. No national title.

[Tusks]

Like 1964. No national title.

Just got out of bed?

[99toLife]

It would change Arkansas' claimed national championships from 1 to 2, so yeah, it would change something despite any defeatist attitudes.

Like I said just claim a national championship 41 years a ago that NO national record keeping organization claims us as national champion. It changes nothing. 

[Hog_Swanson]

Like I said just claim a national championship 41 years a ago that NO national record keeping organization claims us as national champion. It changes nothing.

Well at least one service claims it.

[AirWarren]

Just got out of bed?

Naw man. I'm an earner. Not a Medicaid tit sucker.

It was drop a deuce break. No better time to scroll this place.

[Hog_Swanson]

Naw man. I'm an earner. Not a Medicaid tit sucker.

It was drop a deuce break. No better time to scroll this place.

It's amazing how the 2 go hand and hand.

[99toLife]

Well at least one service claims it.

How many did not?

[pignparadise]

This website recognizes our 1977  national championship.
https://www.thoughtco.com/college-football-national-champions-791518

This one does too.

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS.html
Two independent sources is good enough for me.

[EastexHawg]

If Notre Dame is ever involved forget about getting the benefit of the doubt.  Not gonna happen.

I agree that the '77 team has as good a claim to the national championship...which, by the way, was nothing more than an opinion poll/popularity contest, meaning there is no such thing as a "legitimate" champion...as anyone else.

[Hog_Swanson]

How many did not?

Who cares.  Why be a Debbie downer all the time?

[195bc]

The 1977 team finished 11-1 (only loss was vs Texas 9-13, and there were a number of questionable calls in that game), beat #2 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl 31-6, and finished #3 in the AP and UPI polls.

But there have been numerous polls and rating systems that have been around for decades that give out recognized titles to teams over the years.
One such rating system is the Rothman (FACT) mathematical rating system, a system that was in use from 1968 to 2006. This system gave teams shares of college football national championships if they deserve a share based on a mathematical equation.
The 1977 national championship, according to the R(FACT) rating system, is shared by Notre Dame, Texas, and Arkansas. It is the only time in school history outside of 1964, that the Hogs have been given recognition for a national title.

My question is:
Why doesn't the university go ahead and accept this honor and claim a title for that year?! I would! Hell look at Alabama, and how many they claim! 

Unless Wikipedia changes it down the line, they currently list Arkansas as a national champion for that season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

Close, but no. We were legit No. 4 (some argue No. 3, but I don't agree). We had a weak non-conference schedule, and that really hurt. Our non-conference wins were against 4-7 Ok St, 4-7 NM St, 3-8 Tulsa.

Going into the bowl games (references to all rankings are final regular season AP):
1. Texas (11-0, with wins over No.2 OU, No. 6 Arkansas, No. 17 A&M)
2. OU (one loss to Texas, wins over No. 9 Ohio State, No. 12 Neb)
3. Alabama (one loss to No. 12 Nebraska, win over No. 20 USC)
4. Michigan (one loss at unranked Minnesota, wins over No. 9 Ohio St, No. 17 A&M)
5. Notre Dame (one loss to unranked Ole Miss, wins over No. 10 Pitt, No. 11 Clemson No. 20 USC)
6. Arkansas (one loss to No. 1 Texas, win over No. 17 A&M)
7. Kentucky (one loss to unranked Baylor, wins over No. 8 Penn St, No. 14 UNC) - probation, no bowl
8. Penn St (one loss to No. 7 Kentucky, wins over No. 10 Pitt, No. 15 Arizona St)

In the bowls:
#1 Texas lost to #5 ND
#2 OU lost to to #6 Arkansas
#3 Alabama beat #9 Ohio St
#4 Michigan lost to #13 Washington
#7 Kentucky did not play
#8 Penn St beat #15 Arizona St

So, logic states that Alabama or Notre Dame would move to #1. Notre Dame had a worse loss but far more quality wins during the regular season. They should have been #1.

Texas, which lost, but still only had one loss on the season. They had a undefeated regular season, including a non-conference win over OU. They probably should have finished ahead of Bama in the final poll.

Arkansas had a weaker non-conference schedule than Texas. Both teams had one loss and their best win was against OU, and Texas beat Arkansas head to head.


Would have been an awesome year for a playoff. Sadly, Arkansas still wouldn't have gotten into a four-team playoff. Overall, Notre Dame was the most tested team. They had a very strong schedule. They did have the one loss to Ole Miss, but that game was in Jackson, MS. Alabama didn't have as many ranked wins as Arkansas, but they went into the bowl game ranked higher, and nearly all their wins were by big margins (as were Arkansas').

[Razor1997]

We have more of a claim to 1977 than Alabama does to 1964.

[99toLife]

We have more of a claim to 1977 than Alabama does to 1964.

So what, is that your point?

[pignparadise]

Close, but no. We were legit No. 4 (some argue No. 3, but I don't agree). We had a weak non-conference schedule, and that really hurt. Our non-conference wins were against 4-7 Ok St, 4-7 NM St, 3-8 Tulsa.

Going into the bowl games (references to all rankings are final regular season AP):
1. Texas (11-0, with wins over No.2 OU, No. 6 Arkansas, No. 17 A&M)
2. OU (one loss to Texas, wins over No. 9 Ohio State, No. 12 Neb)
3. Alabama (one loss to No. 12 Nebraska, win over No. 20 USC)
4. Michigan (one loss at unranked Minnesota, wins over No. 9 Ohio St, No. 17 A&M)
5. Notre Dame (one loss to unranked Ole Miss, wins over No. 10 Pitt, No. 11 Clemson No. 20 USC)
6. Arkansas (one loss to No. 1 Texas, win over No. 17 A&M)
7. Kentucky (one loss to unranked Baylor, wins over No. 8 Penn St, No. 14 UNC) - probation, no bowl
8. Penn St (one loss to No. 7 Kentucky, wins over No. 10 Pitt, No. 15 Arizona St)

In the bowls:
#1 Texas lost to #5 ND
#2 OU lost to to #6 Arkansas
#3 Alabama beat #9 Ohio St
#4 Michigan lost to #13 Washington
#7 Kentucky did not play
#8 Penn St beat #15 Arizona St

So, logic states that Alabama or Notre Dame would move to #1. Notre Dame had a worse loss but far more quality wins during the regular season. Either way, they would be #1 and #2.

Texas, which lost, but still only had one loss on the season, would likely be #3. They had undefeated regular season, including a non-conference win over OU. 

Arkansas had a weaker non-conference schedule than Texas. Both teams best win was against OU, and Texas beat Arkansas head to head.

Penn St or Kentucky would be #5 and #6, with OU still ranking somewhere in there, no lower than #7.

Final speculated AP poll:
1.   Notre Dame 11-1
2.   Alabama 11-1
3.   Texas 11-1
4.   Arkansas 11-1 
5.   Penn St 11-1
6.   Kentucky 10-1 or Oklahoma 10-2

Would have been an awesome year for a playoff. Sadly, Arkansas still wouldn't have gotten into a four-team playoff. Overall, Notre Dame was the most tested team. They had a very strong schedule. They did have the one loss to Ole Miss, but that game was in Jackson, MS. Alabama didn't have as many ranked wins as Arkansas, but they went into the bowl game ranked higher, and nearly all their wins were by big margins (as were Arkansas').

Close, but no. We were legit No. 4 (some argue No. 3, but I don't agree). We had a weak non-conference schedule, and that really hurt. Our non-conference wins were against 4-7 Ok St, 4-7 NM St, 3-8 Tulsa.

Going into the bowl games (references to all rankings are final regular season AP):
1. Texas (11-0, with wins over No.2 OU, No. 6 Arkansas, No. 17 A&M)
2. OU (one loss to Texas, wins over No. 9 Ohio State, No. 12 Neb)
3. Alabama (one loss to No. 12 Nebraska, win over No. 20 USC)
4. Michigan (one loss at unranked Minnesota, wins over No. 9 Ohio St, No. 17 A&M)
5. Notre Dame (one loss to unranked Ole Miss, wins over No. 10 Pitt, No. 11 Clemson No. 20 USC)
6. Arkansas (one loss to No. 1 Texas, win over No. 17 A&M)
7. Kentucky (one loss to unranked Baylor, wins over No. 8 Penn St, No. 14 UNC) - probation, no bowl
8. Penn St (one loss to No. 7 Kentucky, wins over No. 10 Pitt, No. 15 Arizona St)

In the bowls:
#1 Texas lost to #5 ND
#2 OU lost to to #6 Arkansas
#3 Alabama beat #9 Ohio St
#4 Michigan lost to #13 Washington
#7 Kentucky did not play
#8 Penn St beat #15 Arizona St

So, logic states that Alabama or Notre Dame would move to #1. Notre Dame had a worse loss but far more quality wins during the regular season. Either way, they would be #1 and #2.

Texas, which lost, but still only had one loss on the season, would likely be #3. They had undefeated regular season, including a non-conference win over OU. 

Arkansas had a weaker non-conference schedule than Texas. Both teams best win was against OU, and Texas beat Arkansas head to head.

Penn St or Kentucky would be #5 and #6, with OU still ranking somewhere in there, no lower than #7.

Final speculated AP poll:
1.   Notre Dame 11-1
2.   Alabama 11-1
3.   Texas 11-1
4.   Arkansas 11-1 
5.   Penn St 11-1
6.   Kentucky 10-1 or Oklahoma 10-2

Would have been an awesome year for a playoff. Sadly, Arkansas still wouldn't have gotten into a four-team playoff. Overall, Notre Dame was the most tested team. They had a very strong schedule. They did have the one loss to Ole Miss, but that game was in Jackson, MS. Alabama didn't have as many ranked wins as Arkansas, but they went into the bowl game ranked higher, and nearly all their wins were by big margins (as were Arkansas').

You are wrong on Final AP poll. Texas was a distant 4th. And the thing that trumps all was Notre Dame LOST to Unranked Ole Miss.

[AirWarren]

I would love to see the look on a recruits face when we say "get a load this 1964 national title".

Haha.

[Snout team]

University of Central Florida is holding on line one 

[99toLife]

I would love to see the look on a recruits face when we say "get a load this 1964 national title".

Haha.

Yea. I'm from Texas and my Grandpa never mentioned it.   

[Mike_e]

Accepting a National title from an out of nowhere poll is kind of like kissing your sister.







Well, that explains alabama anyway.

[DeltaBoy]

Yes we should claim it !

[Tejano Jawg]

In '64, when we're a dominant and undefeated team, finishing the year with a bowl win...I believe we can all claim the NC in good conscience. Plus, the (not-so-recognized) bowl results changed everything in our favor.

The '77 team was different. No doubt, a great team...and who wouldn't want to go back in time and play the Fighting Irish? ND got the nod because they happened to be the team that beat #1 Texas, did it with authority, and did it in the last game. Because that's the way it was back then...I hate it, but I accept it. Our problem was that we were coming from farther back in the polls (#6). Had we been higher, we might have jumped Bama and ended up #2. Because Bama beat ho-hum #9 Ohio State.

What if ND only beats Texas by 1 or 2 points? People love voting for them, so it probably wouldn't have changed anything.

[DLUXHOG]

I was there...  Arkansas is the national champion in the 1977 season...

[99toLife]

I was there...  Arkansas is the national champion in the 1977 season...

Awesome.   you win and feel better and that is all that counts according to you.  Live long and prosper.

[AirWarren]

We are the Central Florida of 1964 and 1977.

[King Kong]

Yes

[rtr]

if it makes you feel better then claim it,  still doesn't change anything.

No it doesn't but the Hogs have as legitimate claim as Notre Dame.  Please remember they lost to Ole Miss that year.

[AirWarren]

It just shows the type of program we are if we still have people crying over '77.

[liljo]

It just shows the type of program we are if we still have people crying over '77.

You keep saying "we"...

What's Auburn got to do with this?

[Ugly Uncle]

The 1977 team finished 11-1 (only loss was vs Texas 9-13, and there were a number of questionable calls in that game), beat #2 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl 31-6, and finished #3 in the AP and UPI polls.

But there have been numerous polls and rating systems that have been around for decades that give out recognized titles to teams over the years.
One such rating system is the Rothman (FACT) mathematical rating system, a system that was in use from 1968 to 2006. This system gave teams shares of college football national championships if they deserve a share based on a mathematical equation.
The 1977 national championship, according to the R(FACT) rating system, is shared by Notre Dame, Texas, and Arkansas. It is the only time in school history outside of 1964, that the Hogs have been given recognition for a national title.

My question is:
Why doesn't the university go ahead and accept this honor and claim a title for that year?! I would! Hell look at Alabama, and how many they claim! 

Unless Wikipedia changes it down the line, they currently list Arkansas as a national champion for that season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

I once researched all of this.

The FACT system is what was used to determine the BCS "computer" rankings.  I have forgotten all that I found out, but roughly what happened.

I hunted down the guy that came up with the system.  He had passed away, but the Prof. that had kept it going...I actually got him on the phone.  Really nice guy.  This was before I started doing radio or I would have gotten him on my show.  I asked him if they presented a trophy or certificate, he said they didn't.  They just announced it.

If I remember correctly, one of the NC that Texas claims was only from FACT.  Yet we don't.

I haven't read all through this thread but there are a couple of reasons why we don't claim this one...though I think we should.

1.  This was not given until later.  I don't remember how long after but they went back and ran the numbers I believe some time in the 80's and announced their findings in retro.

2.  People around Frank didn't want to accept it.

Both of those are true from people that I have talked to.

[WizardofhOgZ]

Oh . . . this old chestnut again . . . lol . . . resurfaces almost every off-season.

Here is a thread that contains a lot of takes on the subject. 

http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=560912.0;

Below is mine, from that thread:

Finally, I voted to neither add nor subtract any Championships to our record.  Just because our SEC brethren are suddenly finding creative ways to add phantom Championships to their media guides doesn't mean that we should follow suit.  1977 is the one that is closest, IMO, but the difference between 1964 and 1977 is that the AP DID take a poll after the 1977 Bowls and even though - IMO - we had as good an argument as any team that year, another team was voted ahead of us.  In other words, we got our "day in court" and lost the decision.  Doesn't mean I'm any less happy with our Orange Bowl rout of OU.  Sure, I'd have liked to have captured the vote and been named Champions.  But I also see that 3 or 4 other teams have equally as compelling an argument, and only 1 was going to be happy with the result.

In 1964, we didn't "lose" the vote - they just didn't take it (talking about AP and UPI).  So we get screwed (in the eyes of those that weren't there and therefore don't understand) when they simply look at the "Final AP poll", see Alabama ranked #1 and assume it was done with the same methodology as EVERYONE understands is the correct way to do it - which is, a vote taken after ALL of the games, Bowls included.  Of course, that's not what happened that year - but younger fans don't take the time to research that - they just assume it was, and that - therefore - we lost a vote (for whatever reason) to a one-loss Alabama team.  That's not what happened.

[195bc]

You are wrong on Final AP poll. Texas was a distant 4th. And the thing that trumps all was Notre Dame LOST to Unranked Ole Miss.

Your are correct, I forgot they had a post bowl AP poll by then. I had just been looking at the final regular season poll. Texas was 4 and Arkansas 3. But I still think Texas has a better argument to be ranked ahead of us. Notre Dame had one loss on the road to an SEC school and had the most impressive schedule. Like it or not, they had a better resume than anyone else. Texas should have really been #2, as their resume was better than Alabama and certainly better than Arkansas.

[regi]

I am 50, and was only 9 going on 10 in 77, but for all I have seen through the years,  77, 78, may have been our most talented teams,  77 maybe the best Hog team ever.  Tons of guys from both those seasons,  that would get drafted,  and have ok,  to HOF NFL Careers.

[GoldCoastHog]

The 1977 team finished 11-1 (only loss was vs Texas 9-13, and there were a number of questionable calls in that game), beat #2 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl 31-6, and finished #3 in the AP and UPI polls.

But there have been numerous polls and rating systems that have been around for decades that give out recognized titles to teams over the years.
One such rating system is the Rothman (FACT) mathematical rating system, a system that was in use from 1968 to 2006. This system gave teams shares of college football national championships if they deserve a share based on a mathematical equation.
The 1977 national championship, according to the R(FACT) rating system, is shared by Notre Dame, Texas, and Arkansas. It is the only time in school history outside of 1964, that the Hogs have been given recognition for a national title.

My question is:
Why doesn't the university go ahead and accept this honor and claim a title for that year?! I would! Hell look at Alabama, and how many they claim! 

Unless Wikipedia changes it down the line, they currently list Arkansas as a national champion for that season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

God knows Alabama would count it in heartbeat.

[bphi11ips]

God knows Alabama would count it in heartbeat.

Every time a bell rings, Alabama claims another national title.

[Pigasaurus]

God knows Alabama would count it in heartbeat.

Yep, even though they don't have to.

[BoynamedWooPigSooie]

I claim 1909, 1964, 1965, 1977 and when the FBI and NCAA finally right the Auburn farce of 2010 and the outright corruption of the NCAA letting Ohio St.'s players play in the Sugar Bowl. (they've already had to vacate that win)  We become the rightful National Champion for 2010.

[rljjr]

We SHOULD claim it.

It's certainly far more legit than UCF this year.

If those old ND guys want to play the old Hogs for the title bring it on. It will be a Married With Children episode come to life.

[007 License To Squeal]

If I remember correctly, the Razorbacks were the only teams which didn't lose to a lower ranked team.  Every other team including ND, was upset at least once during the season.  I have always thought were were robbed.

Didn't ND jump from 5th to 1st?

[rtr]

Your are correct, I forgot they had a post bowl AP poll by then. I had just been looking at the final regular season poll. Texas was 4 and Arkansas 3. But I still think Texas has a better argument to be ranked ahead of us. Notre Dame had one loss on the road to an SEC school and had the most impressive schedule. Like it or not, they had a better resume than anyone else. Texas should have really been #2, as their resume was better than Alabama and certainly better than Arkansas.

A little historical context, the SEC was not then what it is today.  The SWC could claim to be better.

[hogcards]

I know Notre Dame ended up ranked 1, but who was 2?  Texas?

[pignparadise]

I know Notre Dame ended up ranked 1, but who was 2?  Texas?

Bama

[jbigs77]

Its been a few years, but I read Lou Holtz book on his NC ND team. I seem to remember him saying his Arkansas 77 team was the best one he ever had.

[The Hawg Marshal]

In 1977 there was no real way to decide the National Championship.It was left to the "opinion" of sportswriters. We have as much claim to it as anyone. Does it change anything ? Nope. But we can claim it if we want to, it doesn't hurt a thing.