How did LSU football become great? What is holding us back?

[Root_hawg]

Coaching or lack of it...no strength coaches

[Dustbug86]

Ruh roh.. 

[BigoBoys]

Outside of Cook who plays?


Based on the population there should be a large percentage of Hog players from right around campus.......  400K people should turn out a few D1 players per year with that kind of support.

Why is it NWA against rest of state?  Pulaski County alone has almost double the 400k you mention.  Talk about fan base divided.  You against two counties in the state.   

[IronHog]

Why is it NWA against rest of state?  Pulaski County alone has almost double the 400k you mention.  Talk about fan base divided.  You against two counties in the state.   

The point is the 7A west consumes a great deal of the states limited resources... and the Hogs get next to nothing from there in recruiting.


It is relevant to the conversation and it always will be......... it isn't a knock on the 7A west itself..... they have the best programs/coaching/depth in the state and it isn't close.

[Root_hawg]

Just look at this year, 3 out of the 4 first round byes in the state tourney is from west

[BigoBoys]

The point is the 7A west consumes a great deal of the states limited resources... and the Hogs get next to nothing from there in recruiting.


It is relevant to the conversation and it always will be......... it isn't a knock on the 7A west itself..... they have the best programs/coaching/depth in the state and it isn't close.

"consumes a great deal of the states limited resources"   Please explain 

[IronHog]

"consumes a great deal of the states limited resources"   Please explain 

You put that much money, coaching, etc into one area you'd think it would eventually turn out a SEC linebacker......


"programs" are insignificant to genetics when producing football players.... but not irrelevant.

[BigoBoys]

You put that much money, coaching, etc into one area you'd think it would eventually turn out a SEC linebacker......


"programs" are insignificant to genetics when producing football players.... but not irrelevant.

How much money?  Detail it out.  In terms of resources I thought you were talking about food, water, power, gasoline.

[IronHog]

How much money?  Detail it out.  In terms of resources I thought you were talking about food, water, power, gasoline.

I dunno.  Millions and millions.

Way more than Junction City by any measure.

[BigoBoys]

I dunno.  Millions and millions.

Way more than Junction City by any measure.

Well good lord!  Is there some faction called NWA that has surrounded Junction City?  And, then what did they do to it>? 

[IronHog]

Well good lord!  Is there some faction called NWA that has surrounded Junction City?  And, then what did they do to it>? 

If they'd just build a supercenter in junction city then they could better recruit north LA.....

[BigoBoys]

If they'd just build a supercenter in junction city then they could better recruit north LA.....

Who is "they'd"? 

[IronHog]

Who is "they'd"? 

Whoever builds those supercenters.....

[BigoBoys]

Whoever builds those supercenters.....

Well I guess until we figure out who builds those supercenters we will be out recruited in Junction City.  Just a question.  We have a couple of really good players from JC.  Are there some that got away? 

[Teebow62]

Nick Saban. He made LSU great. Also, they can recruit from La. and Texas with ease.

[GoHogs1091]

What is holding us back?
Recruiting.  When you are excited to get a player from Texas who doesn't have offers from OU, Texas or aTM your recruiting is not great.  When you are losing recruits to OkSt, TCU, and Baylor your recruiting is terrible.  That's the state of Arkansas football is at this time.

That is why I have been advocating that we hire Brent Venables, who is the former Associate Head Coach/Defensive Coordinator/LBs Coach at Oklahoma.  Venables is currently in his 1st season as Clemson's DC.

Venables may be the 2nd best recruiter in the nation, 2nd only to Florida State's Eddie Gran (only considering recruiters who are not current Head Coaches).

The following is from an ESPN article that shows some of the players that Venables recently recruited.

"But as much as the Sooners will miss Venables as a coordinator and linebackers coach, they will miss him just as much as an ace recruiter.

Ronnell Lewis, Demontre Hurst, Tom Wort, Corey Nelson, Austin Box, Jamell Fleming and DeMarco Murray are just a few of the standouts Venables had a hand in recruiting to Norman in recent years.

He also was the assistant who secured two of OU's top verbal commitments in this recruiting class: safety Eric Striker and running back Daniel Brooks. Venables also was the primary assistant recruiting California cornerback Brandon Beaver, who is scheduled to visit OU this weekend."

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/44227/brent-venables-leaves-lasting-legacy-at-ou

The following is the Rivals.com profiles of those players listed in that ESPN article who were recruited by Venables in recent years.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Ronnell-Lewis-77681;_ylt=AhtKcJqetMPdha_fLoWEg79IPZB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Demontre-Hurst-80857;_ylt=AvCq.Uq_DH7RWxYG9ezXyrNIPZB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Tom-Wort-80247;_ylt=AptAi30avXbRQSS1vQouua9IPZB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Corey-Nelson-76952;_ylt=AtERn4gsyN5cYR2WQ8UYGW1IPZB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Austin-Box-40659;_ylt=AvieygNwB6BY54mn1LZMw_dIPZB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Jamell-Fleming-45362;_ylt=At9IcUgOBb6OnunE0ncIcZhIPZB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Demarco-Murray-24902;_ylt=AowzuUOVO29_LA3bG6bjFLNIPZB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Eric-Striker-115840;_ylt=AlbWpLdSwhHpqmmb2q.m0FJIPZB4

Venables has recruited in the following areas during his coaching career.

Extensively in the State of Texas  (and I stress the word extensively)
State of Oklahoma
State of Kansas
State of Florida  (particularly the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach area, and the Tampa area)
State of Georgia  (particularly Atlanta, GA)
Washington D.C.-Baltimore-Virginia area
State of New Jersey
State of California
State of Nevada  (particularly Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas where he landed DeMarco Murray)





 

[passinghog]

Damn, some people are just thread killers...

What does Brent Venables have to do with LSU or the state of Louisiana?

[GoHogs1091]

Damn, some people are just thread killers...

What does Brent Venables have to do with LSU or the state of Louisiana?

Well, our Football Program's lack of good recruiting is what is holding us back against Alabama and LSU.

It is one of the main reasons why I am advocating that we hire Brent Venables.

[IronHog]

Well, our Football Program's lack of good recruiting is what is holding us back against Alabama and LSU.

It is one of the main reasons why I am advocating that we hire Brent Venables.

Unless Brent Venables is more elite than OU he isn't going to make Arkansas demographics look like FLA, Bama, and LA..........

And BP was 2-2 vs LSU...... they were too dumb to have a winning record vs. him.

[Cure]

If they'd just build a supercenter in junction city then they could better recruit north LA.....

Funny how at one point we had two starters from Coach Carpenter's program. Bad thing is that he has had a lot of talent come out of there in his time at Junction City. A lot of the talent in Arkansas is in Central and south Arkansas, the census stats would back that up rather easily.

Pine Bluff isn't disciplined enough to churn out all the D1 athletes that they have in the metro, but they can certainly improve and Bolding has done that at Pine Bluff High at the least. Cortez Lee has had some from Dollarway as well.

[Fayettechill14]

Coaching or lack of it...no strength coaches

This is part of it. Great teams can end close games late by simply pounding away at the opponent. Only time I saw us do that in 4+ years was LSU 2010.

[GoHogs1091]

Unless Brent Venables is more elite than OU he isn't going to make Arkansas demographics look like FLA, Bama, and LA..........

Obviously Venables wouldn't change the inside the State of Arkansas demographics, but he would be landing players to Fayetteville from areas that we don't usually recruit very well/or that we don't recruit at all.

Keep in mind that he was getting those players to Norman, OK, and he has recruited players to Manhattan, KS (when he was coaching at Kansas State).  The following is from article regarding Venables' and his recuiting.

"Venables says he's flexible when it comes to recruiting new geographical areas."

"My take on it is that I can go anywhere," said Venables. "It's about being a people person and developing relationships. It's about being sincere. People either will trust you or they don't. They either sense your passion, or they don't. I think that's a strength of mine.

"I'll have to pull out an atlas and use the navigation system. I've actually had some experience the past couple of years in the DC-Baltimore-Virginia area, and I've recruited up in Jersey and in Florida. When I was at Kansas State I recruited the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Pal Beach area, and up in Tampa this year and in year's past as well. At Oklahoma, we recruited a little bit more nationally, so I was into Atlanta, too.

"I don't have the deep-seated relationships that ultimately are my responsibility to develop, but I'll go anywhere to recruit. I follow the players and then develop the relationships from there."

http://www.orangeandwhite.com/news/2012/jan/24/raw-bone-or-johnny-5-star-brent-venables-values-ev/?partner=RSS
 

 

[IronHog]

Obviously Venables wouldn't change the inside the State of Arkansas demographics, but he would be landing players to Fayetteville from areas that we don't usually recruit very well/or that we don't recruit at all.

Keep in mind that he was getting those players to Norman, OK, and he has recruited players to Manhattan, KS (when he was coaching at Kansas State).  The following is from article regarding Venables' and his recuiting.

"Venables says he's flexible when it comes to recruiting new geographical areas."

"My take on it is that I can go anywhere," said Venables. "It's about being a people person and developing relationships. It's about being sincere. People either will trust you or they don't. They either sense your passion, or they don't. I think that's a strength of mine.

"I'll have to pull out an atlas and use the navigation system. I've actually had some experience the past couple of years in the DC-Baltimore-Virginia area, and I've recruited up in Jersey and in Florida. When I was at Kansas State I recruited the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Pal Beach area, and up in Tampa this year and in year's past as well. At Oklahoma, we recruited a little bit more nationally, so I was into Atlanta, too.

"I don't have the deep-seated relationships that ultimately are my responsibility to develop, but I'll go anywhere to recruit. I follow the players and then develop the relationships from there."

http://www.orangeandwhite.com/news/2012/jan/24/raw-bone-or-johnny-5-star-brent-venables-values-ev/?partner=RSS
 

 

He was so elite that OU fired him.

I'm not sure Arkansas is good enough to handle someone that elite.

[IronHog]

This is part of it. Great teams can end close games late by simply pounding away at the opponent. Only time I saw us do that in 4+ years was LSU 2010.

Ya'll are too hung up on Bama and LSU....

BP's teams won going away from plenty of teams the past two years......aTm, SCe, Miss St, Auburn, etc.

[GoHogs1091]

He was so elite that OU fired him.

I'm not sure Arkansas is good enough to handle someone that elite.

Venables was not fired at OU.  In fact, Bob Stoops and Mike Stoops wanted to put Venables in charge of the Defense.  The following is from the following article.

"Venables will be introduced as Clemson's new defensive coordinator on Friday. Thursday he spent exchanging hugs and stories, packing up boxes, and cleaning out his office at the Switzer Center. He started the day talking with OU play-by-play announcer Toby Rowland for nearly 15 minutes on Rowland's morning radio show."

"He told Rowland he was "incredibly happy" at OU, even when Stoops announced last week that he was bringing back brother Mike Stoops to help out with the defense again. He said the notion that he was being demoted so Mike Stoops could take over play-calling duties was not only inaccurate, but flat-out wrong."

"If I had stayed, Coach (Bob Stoops) and Mike and everybody else administratively wanted to put me in charge (of the defense)," Venables told Rowland.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/OU/article.aspx?subjectid=92&articleid=20120120_92_B1_CUTLIN825353

     

[Fayettechill14]

Did a little study. Maybe this will clear up IronHog's point

Arkansas' population: 2.9 million
   -Population of LR-NLR-Conway metroplex: 886,000
   -Population of NWA metroplex: 463,000
Percent of Arkansas' population from LR or NWA: 46%

Since some rural areas don't have football at all, and youth is more likely to live near urban areas, we're dealing with about 50% of youth hailing from LR or NWA. Therefore, we should expect 50% of our players to hail from one of those two regions.

Where Arkansas' 2011 and 2012 contributors actually come from, rural or urban:
Tyler Wilson, Greenwood (rural)
Brandon Allen, Fayetteville (urban)
Dennis Johnson, Texarkana (rural)
Broderick Green, Little Rock (urban)
Jarius Wright, Warren (rural)
Greg Childs, Warren (rural)
Chris Gragg, Warren (rural)
Austin Tate, Harrison (rural)
Brey Cook, Springdale (urban)
Mitch Smothers, Springdale (urban)
Tyler Deacon, Little Rock (urban)

Byran Jones, Junction City (rural)
Jake Bequette, Little Rock (urban)
AJ Turner, Lepanto (rural)
Jerry Franklin, Marion (rural)
Davyon McKinney, Forrest City (rural)
Kaelon Kelleybrew, Little Rock (urban)
Darius Winston, West Memphis (rural)
Alan Turner, Junction City (rural)

Zach Hocker, Russellville (rural)

TOTALS:
13 rural
7 urban

When about 50% is expected to be from urban, only 35% are from the urban areas of the state, with 65% hailing from the more rural regions, especially southern Arkansas, which contributed 6 players by itself, almost as many as came from LR/NWA despite a population that is, conservatively, less than 1/3 of those regions.

Reasonably, if the population of southern Arkansas was as much as the population of LR/NWA with the same rate of D-I players being produced, then southern Arkansas would have produced 18 contributors to the 2011-2012 football team, which amounts to about 4 to 5 guys EACH YEAR.

[IronHog]

Did a little study. Maybe this will clear up IronHog's point

Arkansas' population: 2.9 million
   -Population of LR-NLR-Conway metroplex: 886,000
   -Population of NWA metroplex: 463,000
Percent of Arkansas' population from LR or NWA: 46%

Since some rural areas don't have football at all, and youth is more likely to live near urban areas, we're dealing with about 50% of youth hailing from LR or NWA. Therefore, we should expect 50% of our players to hail from one of those two regions.

Where Arkansas' 2011 and 2012 contributors actually come from, rural or urban:
Tyler Wilson, Greenwood (rural)
Brandon Allen, Fayetteville (urban)
Dennis Johnson, Texarkana (rural)
Broderick Green, Little Rock (urban)
Jarius Wright, Warren (rural)
Greg Childs, Warren (rural)
Chris Gragg, Warren (rural)
Austin Tate, Harrison (rural)
Brey Cook, Springdale (urban)
Mitch Smothers, Springdale (urban)
Tyler Deacon, Little Rock (urban)

Byran Jones, Junction City (rural)
Jake Bequette, Little Rock (urban)
AJ Turner, Lepanto (rural)
Jerry Franklin, Marion (rural)
Davyon McKinney, Forrest City (rural)
Kaelon Kelleybrew, Little Rock (urban)
Darius Winston, West Memphis (rural)
Alan Turner, Junction City (rural)

Zach Hocker, Russellville (rural)

TOTALS:
13 rural
7 urban

When about 50% is expected to be from urban, only 35% are from the urban areas of the state, with 65% hailing from the more rural regions, especially southern Arkansas, which contributed 6 players by itself, almost as many as came from LR/NWA despite a population that is, conservatively, less than 1/3 of those regions.

Reasonably, if the population of southern Arkansas was as much as the population of LR/NWA with the same rate of D-I players being produced, then southern Arkansas would have produced 18 contributors to the 2011-2012 football team, which amounts to about 4 to 5 guys EACH YEAR.

The best football is actually played in little towns scattered across south Arkansas.....when you take into account they may only have 60-120 males in the entire HS........ and half their starters would start on any 7A team.

[redeye]

Feel free to move this topic if it doesn't belong here. Warning, long and no cliff notes.

I'm having a debate with my friend on 'realistic expectations' for Hogs football. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am of the belief that success in life is determined strictly by mentality and mindset. Sure, there are some who are gifted with favorable circumstances, but every winner I know in life has a blind confidence and desire to achieve; and all ignored so-called reality and circumstances. Accordingly, people I know who did not quite pan out in life all seem to blame their circumstances, other people, or any other type of excuse for why they aren't where they want to be.

I believe that having a football program with sustained success is no different. Sure, there are programs that have distinct advantages from longstanding winning tradition or location. But then I look at a program like LSU through the 2000's. I despise them like rapists and murderers, but their current standing speaks for itself. Perhaps I am ignorant, it seems to me like they just decided to be great and refused to acknowledge 'realistic expectations'. As far as I know, they don't have great winning tradition to fall back on or location advantage on par with USC. They simply refuse to even entertain the thought of being satisfied with a few great seasons here and there. It's all in mentality and mindset.

I thought we were moving to that point when winner-type fans (most of them here on Hogville) formed a united front to oust Nutt by any means necessary. We refused to listen to mockery and ridicule from the national public and sports media, who were eager to put us in our place, constantly reminding us that we were little ol' Arkansas and should be happy with 9 win seasons once or twice per decade. We never turned that corner obviously. Most blame the Petrino/Long situation, but as stated before, I believe it always goes back to mindset and mentality. There is still the lingering belief that Hogs football belongs at the middle or bottom of the back. As we speak, my friend is lecturing me on being realistic and how there are maybe 3 programs who can expect 9-10 win seasons consistently.

IMO, turning things around permanently is as simple as a change in thinking and absolute refusal to accept less. The rest takes care of itself. That is the only way to separate yourself from the overwhelming majority who abide by realistic expectations, in football and in life. So what is really stopping us from this mindset?

This may be the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. Sorry for being so blunt, but that's just offensive.

I agree that it's important to have that mindset, but you're giving it far too much credit. I'm sure that thinking works well in some industries, but not those that actually do things.

[hawaiianhogster]

If we pay the head coach and the assistant coaches good money to stay for a long time they would be able to build a team worthy of winning championships. We need a head coach that bring in great assistant coaches to start off with. Then if one of them gets a head coaching job we can hire another great assistant to replace them. Great coaches. Great recruiters. Longevity. That is the formula for success. Bobby got it started but was unable to finish.

We are headed in the right direction. If they bring in a great head coach we should see the results pay off in a few years. All they will need to do after that is reload with talent. I don't see why Arkansas can not become a dominating team in the SEC.

[Hogs-n-Roses]

Compete at top of SEC like Petrino did.....Bama beat him by 24 the year he had his best team....we were the best of the second tier or the worse of the top tier

Thats accurate and I feel like we could have taken one more step over the next 4 years with Petrino and that is the hiring if a top D coordinator. Obviously this latest one wasn't it but in a couple of years of that hire he would have made another move. And that being upper second tier in the West and ending the year in the top 5 nationally would be OK while your trying to get all the pieces together that it would take to compete with Bama. For me, all I ask is to be relevant while building.

[jamie72921]

Agree that MOST D1 isn't SEC.... not real impact players anyway.

But the Hogs MUST do better not missing on kids that could fill the depth chart...... UCA, UAPB, A State etc always have kids from instate better than those on the two deep at Arkansas.


Line is just a problem.... 2.5 million people is only going to turn out so many 6-6 300lbs in any given year.

It's not enough that a kid have talent, he has to have grades as well.

I assure you that if those kids had the grades and Arkansas wasn't after them, then another SEC team would be.

Poor example.

Also I am sick of your assertion that school districts are taking resources away from others. Not because this isn't happening, but because you have bassackwards as to the direction of the redistribution.

Your smaller schools are taking funds from the larger but because there is a lot of old fashioned graft in your area of the state, the schools aren't benefiting
from it.

Southeast Ark is the New Orleans of our state.

[want2be]

If Tenner was able to be successful with Fulmer, then we can do it. We will need to continue to recruit across the country.

It is proven that pass happy, finess minded teams, can't stay in the Top Tier of the SEC....We have to get back to being mean HOGS.

[IronHog]

It's not enough that a kid have talent, he has to have grades as well.

I assure you that if those kids had the grades and Arkansas wasn't after them, then another SEC team would be.

Poor example.

Also I am sick of your assertion that school districts are taking resources away from others. Not because this isn't happening, but because you have bassackwards as to the direction of the redistribution.

Your smaller schools are taking funds from the larger but because there is a lot of old fashioned graft in your area of the state, the schools aren't benefiting
from it.

Southeast Ark is the New Orleans of our state.

Federally mandated social engineering is the main culprit.......


Don't think football players don't understand why NWA has grown so much..... I wouldn't play football there either if I were them.

[jamie72921]

Federally mandated social engineering is the main culprit.......


Don't think football players don't understand why NWA has grown so much..... I wouldn't play football there either if I were them.

No, the culprits are still the same selfish white land owners in SE Ark that having been jobbing blacks and the rest of the state since its inception.

[IronHog]

No, the culprits are still the same selfish white land owners in SE Ark that having been jobbing blacks and the rest of the state since its inception.

They aren't the ones segregating themselves in NWA and other "good school" areas.

[westside_player]

Did a little study. Maybe this will clear up IronHog's point

Arkansas' population: 2.9 million
   -Population of LR-NLR-Conway metroplex: 886,000
   -Population of NWA metroplex: 463,000
Percent of Arkansas' population from LR or NWA: 46%

Since some rural areas don't have football at all, and youth is more likely to live near urban areas, we're dealing with about 50% of youth hailing from LR or NWA. Therefore, we should expect 50% of our players to hail from one of those two regions.

Where Arkansas' 2011 and 2012 contributors actually come from, rural or urban:
Tyler Wilson, Greenwood (rural)
Brandon Allen, Fayetteville (urban)
Dennis Johnson, Texarkana (rural)
Broderick Green, Little Rock (urban)
Jarius Wright, Warren (rural)
Greg Childs, Warren (rural)
Chris Gragg, Warren (rural)
Austin Tate, Harrison (rural)
Brey Cook, Springdale (urban)
Mitch Smothers, Springdale (urban)
Tyler Deacon, Little Rock (urban)

Byran Jones, Junction City (rural)
Jake Bequette, Little Rock (urban)
AJ Turner, Lepanto (rural)
Jerry Franklin, Marion (rural)
Davyon McKinney, Forrest City (rural)
Kaelon Kelleybrew, Little Rock (urban)
Darius Winston, West Memphis (rural)
Alan Turner, Junction City (rural)

Zach Hocker, Russellville (rural)

TOTALS:
13 rural
7 urban

When about 50% is expected to be from urban, only 35% are from the urban areas of the state, with 65% hailing from the more rural regions, especially southern Arkansas, which contributed 6 players by itself, almost as many as came from LR/NWA despite a population that is, conservatively, less than 1/3 of those regions.

Reasonably, if the population of southern Arkansas was as much as the population of LR/NWA with the same rate of D-I players being produced, then southern Arkansas would have produced 18 contributors to the 2011-2012 football team, which amounts to about 4 to 5 guys EACH YEAR.

one thing I will add to this, is that I think there are a lot of good athletes in Arkansas that either aren't participating in fb, or they are, but they don't have the grades for the SEC. Where I went to high school, I used to think you could take all the thugs and flunkies off the halls, put them on the field against the football team and they could beat the football team.

I met a guy recently who was working at a grocery store in Little Rock. He was about 6'4 250. He said he played for Hall but didn't have the grades to play in college. He said he could run a 4.7 and bench 350. I believe there are more kids like this in the state who aren't playing in college.

[Pork Twain]

I dunno.  Millions and millions.

Way more than Junction City by any measure.

So do you have any facts to back up what you are saying?  You are starting to sound like Romney.