Making the NCAA tournament is harder than making a bowl game

[FineAsSwine]

Interesting article about why it is so much harder to make the NCAA tournament than to make a bowl game:

http://www.thedailygopher.com/2015/6/10/8729153/reasonable-hottakes-making-the-ncaa-tournament-is-better-than-making

[WilsonHog]

I'm not quite sure what one has to do with the other, except to somehow attempt to rationalize substandard performance.

I'm not over-the-top satisfied with either program right now.

I watched every minute of our game with SFA last night, because I am a Razorback fan. If I had no allegiance and just wanted to watch some college basketball, I would have changed the channel at the by the first TV timeout.

[ricepig]

I'm not quite sure what one has to do with the other, except to somehow attempt to rationalize substandard performance.

I'm not over-the-top satisfied with either program right now.

I watched every minute of our game with SFA last night, because I am a Razorback fan. If I had no allegiance and just wanted to watch some college basketball, I would have changed the channel at the by the first TV timeout.

I watched more of the Cowboys-Vikings than I did our game. It looked about the normal to me. I really am surprised at the crowd size, especially with 13,000 season tickets sold, but I guess people don't care about the early non-con games, unless it's a "name".

[FineAsSwine]

I'm not quite sure what one has to do with the other, except to somehow attempt to rationalize substandard performance.

I'm not over-the-top satisfied with either program right now.

I watched every minute of our game with SFA last night, because I am a Razorback fan. If I had no allegiance and just wanted to watch some college basketball, I would have changed the channel at the by the first TV timeout.

Whoa big fella! This isn't about Razorback football vs Razorback basketball. It's about the difficulties facing ALL NCAA basketball teams making the NCAA tournament vs the MUCH easier path that D1 Football teams have to get in a bowl. You must not have read the article, it NEVER mentions the Razorbacks.

[FineAsSwine]

I think the derail will be strong in this one. Keeping a thread on point in Hogville is like herding cats. Hard to do when a mod is the first to derail.

Edit: Should have said administrator, just want to make sure to give you your props.

[WilsonHog]

I think the derail will be strong in this one. Keeping a thread on point in Hogville is like herding cats. Hard to do when a mod is the first to derail.

Especially when said mod has been around long enough to spot an agenda. All I had to do was look at the thread title and who posted it.

[hogsanity]

Ah the daily prop up Mike thread.

Making the NCAAT should not be hard, especially in a league as bad as the SEC. Finish in the top 3 of the league and you make it.

I watched every minute of our game with SFA last night, because I am a Razorback fan. If I had no allegiance and just wanted to watch some college basketball, I would have changed the channel at the by the first TV timeout.

I did too, but I had it on dvr so I watched it at double speed, otherwise no way I could have actually sat through 2 hours of it.

[hogsanity]

I think the derail will be strong in this one. Keeping a thread on point in Hogville is like herding cats. Hard to do when a mod is the first to derail.

Edit: Should have said administrator, just want to make sure to give you your props.

You do realize that more people have been banned for things said about Mike than probably for anything else in the history of hogville. Many by the exact same guy you are trying to pick a fight with.

[FineAsSwine]

Especially when said mod has been around long enough to spot an agenda. All I had to do was look at the thread title and who posted it.

Calm down, you're just seeing things.

[FineAsSwine]

You do realize that more people have been banned for things said about Mike than probably for anything else in the history of hogville. Many by the exact same guy you are trying to pick a fight with.

Good grief! Now you pop up. How am I picking a fight? Talk about agendas, look in the mirror.

[FineAsSwine]

I think this is an interesting topic and apparently, judging from the article, other people do too. Why can't it be discussed here?

[razorsharp94]

It's true.

[WilsonHog]

I think this is an interesting topic and apparently, judging from the article, other people do too. Why can't it be discussed here?

It certainly can be discussed here; it's rather apparent so far that no one particularly wants to.

[FineAsSwine]

It certainly can be discussed here; it's rather apparent so far that no one particularly wants to.

Because of a certain persons immediate derail of said discussion. But you didn't hear that from me and I shall call no names.

[FineAsSwine]

As excellent as Duke has been under Coach K over the past 30 years, they have won five national championships. Alabama has won 4 under Saban in less than 10 years.

Quote from the article:

The Duke Blue Devils won their fifth National Championship in men's basketball this past April in an intriguing final match up against our hated rivals, the Wisconsin Badgers. Poor Duke hadn't won a national title since 2010. It must have been a really hard five years waiting on the that 5th title, eh Blue Devil fans? Sure, they have no football history to speak of but thanks to the brilliance that has been the Mike Krzyzewski era at Duke, they have been flush with success in one of the two major collegiate sports. Other BCS programs, on the other hand, aren't quite so lucky to have reached the mountain top in either of the two major sports in the last 55 years. Heck, some haven't even been to the apex of their own conference in either sports since 1997. Or if you want to get even more depressed, some schools haven't even been conference champions in either sport legally since 1982.

[FineAsSwine]

Not only is it much harder to make it to the NCAA tourney, it's even tougher to claw your way to the top.

[hogsanity]

As excellent as Duke has been under Coach K over the past 30 years, they have won five national championships. Alabama has won 4 under Saban in less than 10 years.

Quote from the article:

The Duke Blue Devils won their fifth National Championship in men's basketball this past April in an intriguing final match up against our hated rivals, the Wisconsin Badgers. Poor Duke hadn't won a national title since 2010. It must have been a really hard five years waiting on the that 5th title, eh Blue Devil fans? Sure, they have no football history to speak of but thanks to the brilliance that has been the Mike Krzyzewski era at Duke, they have been flush with success in one of the two major collegiate sports. Other BCS programs, on the other hand, aren't quite so lucky to have reached the mountain top in either of the two major sports in the last 55 years. Heck, some haven't even been to the apex of their own conference in either sports since 1997. Or if you want to get even more depressed, some schools haven't even been conference champions in either sport legally since 1982.

it is easier to get into A bowl, but it is much harder to get into a chance at the NC. In basketball 68 teams are in the tournament that determines that, in football it is 4.

[FineAsSwine]

From the article:

"In FBS football there are 64 teams in the five major conferences (Big Ten, SEC, Big 12, and ACC). Let's throw in Notre Dame and BYU because those two schools are both major players in the landscape of the sport. That gives us 66 teams. Since 26 of the 76 teams from the 2014 Bowl Season came from conferences like the Mountain West and the American Athletic, it means that 50 of the 66 "major" schools made bowls. This boils down to 75.8%. If you are a major collegiate football program and you don't make a bowl game, you are probably pretty dang terrible".

[ShadowHawg]

Ah the daily prop up Mike thread.

Making the NCAAT should not be hard, especially in a league as bad as the SEC. Finish in the top 3 of the league and you make it.


I did too, but I had it on dvr so I watched it at double speed, otherwise no way I could have actually sat through 2 hours of it.

It makes it much harder. Every year teams with big win totals stay at home now. They are all from weak leagues.

South Carolina? Please give some evidence to back your continued bogus claim.

[HoopS]

All other crap aside --

It is correct. And making nowadays is harder than it used to be.

But my expectation is to make it. No matter how easy or hard anyone thinks it will be. We have the talent to make it. So make it.

[hogsanity]

It makes it much harder. Every year teams with big win totals stay at home now. They are all from weak leagues.

South Carolina? Please give some evidence to back your continued bogus claim.

SC did not finish 3rd, they finished in a 3 way tie for 3rd, so it could be argued they finished 5th. They also ended with a very poor record their last 8 games which is what killed them ( along with a putrid ooc schedule ). Vandy, who was tied at 11-7 in the sec with SC made the NCAAT with 5 or 6 fewer wins because they played a much tougher schedule.

[ShadowHawg]

it is easier to get into A bowl, but it is much harder to get into a chance at the NC. In basketball 68 teams are in the tournament that determines that, in football it is 4.

Not even close to the same subject.

Please I want to hear how playing in a weak conference is the advantage you claim.

[WilsonHog]

All other crap aside --

It is correct. And making nowadays is harder than it used to be.

But my expectation is to make it. No matter how easy or hard anyone thinks it will be. We have the talent to make it. So make it.

This.

[ShadowHawg]

SC did not finish 3rd, they finished in a 3 way tie for 3rd, so it could be argued they finished 5th. They also ended with a very poor record their last 8 games which is what killed them ( along with a putrid ooc schedule ). Vandy, who was tied at 11-7 in the sec with SC made the NCAAT with 5 or 6 fewer wins because they played a much tougher schedule.

I understand that. It flies in the face of your original claim though.

How did playing in a weak conference benefit then?

From what I can see, playing in a weak conference makes it much harder. Very little opportunity to build up a resume with LOTS of opportunity to harm it. Please explain the advantage. Thanks.

[HoopS]

So here's the deal with conferences and getting in.

It is kind of a wash.

In theory, it is easier to make the tournament from a weaker league due to an ability to win more.

Used to be, you get to 20 and you're in. That day has long since passed. Watch our conference teams and you will see.

Yet, it is possible to get in with fewer wins if you come from the right conference, have the right wins, and are void of schedule anchors.

The SEC knows this and so they brought in help with scheduling.  We are considered about a 3-5 bid conference. So we have to schedule well. Our current schedule reflects that. Avoid the extremely lowly rated teams and beat some pretty solid teams and if you do well enough in your conference you have a shot.

But making it from our conference isn't really easier. You're going to have to rack up the wins, schedule ooc correctly, and look impressive late. Otherwise, your good SEC season is not worth much.

[code red]

I would totally agree with the OP. The rankings in football have so little to do with winning on the field.

[Knot2brite]

Bowl games are post season correct? Not all bowls games are the same. The NC football play off is 4 games but there are many many more bowl games that do not lead to a chance at a NC. So what are the other teams playing for? There are 68 teams that are vying to win a NC in basketball. Truth is that 67 and 68 aren't going to win it but they have a theoretical shot at it. So the idea of getting into a bowl game is easier is correct. Playing for a NC in basketball is easier. Playing in post season basketball is as easy as making a bowl game. NIT, CBI,CIT all of these are post season as well...just like the lowest paying bowl game

[Atlhogfan1]

There are 10 or so multi-bid conferences for 36 at large positions in addition to their 10 automatic spots.  110-120 or so teams in these conferences depending on the year and who gets the extra team(s) out of conferences like CUSA, WCC, MVC etc. 

46 spots for 120 teams  = 38% of the teams make it.  A little on the low side as it really isn't 120 teams but being generous.

In football, you have the FBS conferences like the Sun Belt and MAC and now maybe even CUSA where it isn't even a discussion as to which is easier - win 6-7 games or win the conference basketball tournament.  Winning the conf tourney may be easy for a great team relative to one of these conferences but it is still a risky venture.

Getting to 6 wins, or even less in unique circumstances, isn't the challenge.  It isn't comparable to getting to the NCAAT.  The challenge is finishing near the top of your conference in conferences like the SEC or B1G to where you are going to be invited/placed/selected for one of the upper tier bowls.  For the SEC and B1G, the Cap One and up.  Or at the least, Gator, Outback, MCB most seasons.  This season in the SEC is an anomaly as November ended up being crazy due to teams' conditions and AU is going to end up going to a bowl they normally wouldn't have even been considered for of course.

41 bowls now but you can't really look at it this way.  Unlike college basketball, we aren't competing for a bowl position with other conferences except for position within the playoff or perhaps an extra group of 6 spot.  IMO, the SEC has 3-4 desirable positions including the playoff(playoff, Sugar, Cap One) and normally it is a good to great(playoff) achievement getting into one.  A couple of more can be good achievements especially for a program like ours would be Outback or Gator most seasons(not one where nobody in the conference really separated themselves but Bama).  So it is 6 spots maybe for 14 teams.  Or 3-4 for 14 depending on your view of the quality of the achievement.  When you get to the 6-7 win bowls, the lowest tier in the SEC's preference order, you are getting NITish to CBIish or at home if bask IMO. 

In basketball, you are competing with programs from all of the major and high mid major conferences for the NCAAT.  College football, this is only true if you are in contention for the playoff which only comes down to 6-8 teams for those 4 spots and the Group of 6 bowls.  Otherwise, you are just competing within your conference for positioning.

[Captain Morgan]

Ah the daily prop up Mike thread.

Making the NCAAT should not be hard, especially in a league as bad as the SEC. Finish in the top 3 of the league and you make it.


I did too, but I had it on dvr so I watched it at double speed, otherwise no way I could have actually sat through 2 hours of it.

The Pom Pom Guys of are out in full force. 

[hogsanity]

Not even close to the same subject.

Please I want to hear how playing in a weak conference is the advantage you claim.

A good team in a weak league should be able to rack up enough wins to get in. People keep throwing up SC from last year, but they really were not a very good team. Yes undefeated in a ooc schedule that Syracuse from the 90;s would have been embarrassed to play, but not a very good team. A good team, undefeated in ooc play, should have won 13 or 14 sec games last year plus a couple in the sect.

You can not really be ncaat goodif you can't do better than 11 wins in a weak league.

[phadedhawg]

Just comparing the numbers of teams and automatic qualifiers it is objectively harder to make the NCAA tourney.  However that isn't true for every school.  Some benefit from weaker conferences (like we should). 

There are obviously too many bowls now to where they mean less and less each year.  The NCAA tourney though...it still has it's prestige because it's a more selective process to get in.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Whoa big fella! This isn't about Razorback football vs Razorback basketball. It's about the difficulties facing ALL NCAA basketball teams making the NCAA tournament vs the MUCH easier path that D1 Football teams have to get in a bowl. You must not have read the article, it NEVER mentions the Razorbacks.

Knowing full well that's exactly where people would go with it.

And then proclaim 'Who, me? I didn't start nothing.'

[HognitiveDissonance]

Especially when said mod has been around long enough to spot an agenda. All I had to do was look at the thread title and who posted it.

Bingo.

[azhog10]

Especially when said mod has been around long enough to spot an agenda. All I had to do was look at the thread title and who posted it.

And yet adding nothing to the conversation. This point has been made in the past, of course folks like yourself just want to turn this into a CBB vs. CMA thread. That's not what the article says.

If you want to talk about substandard performance, I think that is actually what this article is talking about. Bowls legitimize substandard performance. Making the NCAAT is not like making a bowl. Period. But you, yourself have an agenda.

[HognitiveDissonance]

The insinuation is that some people say any bowl game = any NCAA appearance, as some sort of justification for job performance.
That's certainly not true for Arkansas. It's not true for a 5-7 team making a bowl, like Miss St this year.

First, you have to define your expectations for each sport at Arkansas. They should not be exactly the same. They never have been for me.
There is a thread on MMQB going right now for defining expectations for football.

In general, for the SEC and Arkansas, I would say:
Making a lesser bowl = making the NIT
Making a mid-tier or higher bowl = making the NCAA. Mid-tier would be what is now called the 'Pool of Six'. Obviously higher would be Sugar, Cotton, etc

In general, refrain from comparing football to basketball. It's easier to cloud than it is to clarify. Not a direct comparison.

There's a reason why schools like Kansas and Kentucky can be powers in basketball, but generally stink in football. Numbers.
By the same token, Arkansas has a greater chance to succeed nationally in basketball for same reason. Numbers. Even though Ark usually has a much better football program than Kansas, the concept holds true. Due to numbers limitations in football, Ark should put more emphasis and have greater expectations for national glory in hoops. Logic says that, and recent history says that as well.

[azhog10]

The insinuation is that some people say any bowl game = any NCAA appearance, as some sort of justification for job performance.
That's certainly not true for Arkansas. It's not true for a 5-7 team making a bowl, like Miss St this year.

First, you have to define your expectations for each sport at Arkansas. They should not be exactly the same. They never have been for me.
There is a thread on MMQB going right now for defining expectations for football.

In general, for the SEC and Arkansas, I would say:
Making a lesser bowl = making the NIT
Making a mid-tier or higher bowl = making the NCAA. Mid-tier would be what is now called the 'Pool of Six'. Obviously higher would be Sugar, Cotton, etc

In general, refrain from comparing football to basketball. It's easier to cloud than it is to clarify. Not a direct comparison.

There's a reason why schools like Kansas and Kentucky can be powers in basketball, but generally stink in football. Numbers.
By the same token, Arkansas has a greater chance to succeed nationally in basketball for same reason. Numbers. Even though Ark usually has a much better football program than Kansas, the concept holds true. Due to numbers limitations in football, Ark should put more emphasis and have greater expectations for national glory in hoops. Logic says that, and recent history says that as well.

Recent history? Football has been a lot closer to a national championship "recently" than basketball. I would agree if by numbers you mean state basketball vs. football talent. That said, we still aren't comparible to Texas, Cali, Florida, and the northeast in basketball. So not sure the rationale with that.

Sure expectations can be different, but for most here, it's very subjective because many still live in the past. They still believe we are one season away from 94-95. That's not gonna happen, not that fast, and not at this university.

[HognitiveDissonance]

And yet adding nothing to the conversation. This point has been made in the past, of course folks like yourself just want to turn this into a CBB vs. CMA thread. That's not what the article says.

If you want to talk about substandard performance, I think that is actually what this article is talking about. Bowls legitimize substandard performance. Making the NCAAT is not like making a bowl. Period. But you, yourself have an agenda.

Possibly, but people who are here often have seen enough to know that if certain posters are starting threads, 9 times out of 10 it's a CMA agenda.
That may not be true in this case, but it is nearly always true.

I do agree that there are too many bowls. Obviously when 5-7 teams are making bowls, there are too many. I'm sure there have been coaches/agents/media types reference 'he made a bowl game' as evidence of job performance. It does sound good on surface, but discerning minds will know better.

[hogsanity]

Recent history? Football has been a lot closer to a national championship "recently" than basketball. I would agree if by numbers you mean state basketball vs. football talent. That said, we still aren't comparible to Texas, Cali, Florida, and the northeast in basketball. So not sure the rationale with that.

Sure expectations can be different, but for most here, it's very subjective because many still live in the past. They still believe we are one season away from 94-95. That's not gonna happen, not that fast, and not at this university.

when was football close to a NC, and please do not say 2010 because they were not close to a NC that year.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Ah the daily prop up Mike thread.

Making the NCAAT should not be hard, especially in a league as bad as the SEC. Finish in the top 3 of the league and you make it.


I did too, but I had it on dvr so I watched it at double speed, otherwise no way I could have actually sat through 2 hours of it.

I watched every play on recording, but it was hard. It was an ugly game.
Hate seeing Moses not getting more involved. He got 12 but it wasn't by design.
Thought the defensive intensity was way up and impressive, but offense looked ragged.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Recent history? Football has been a lot closer to a national championship "recently" than basketball. I would agree if by numbers you mean state basketball vs. football talent. That said, we still aren't comparible to Texas, Cali, Florida, and the northeast in basketball. So not sure the rationale with that.

Sure expectations can be different, but for most here, it's very subjective because many still live in the past. They still believe we are one season away from 94-95. That's not gonna happen, not that fast, and not at this university.

Yes, that's actually true. 2011 we finished #5 in football. That was due to an exceptional coach doing an exceptional job. Petrino is a Top 10, maybe Top 5 coach in America. Bielema isn't, so we've regressed, just like I said we would.

It doesn't change the general narrative, though. it's easier to get to national success in basketball.

Ark doesn't produce great numbers in anything, agreed. But it only takes a couple great players to possibly have a great team in basketball. Heck, we went to the Elite 8 in 1979 with only Sidney Moncrief being a great player. Obviously that is a pipe dream in football, 22 guys are on the field. Even the greatest of all like DMac is still only one guy. Gotta have a lot more than him.

[FineAsSwine]

Knowing full well that's exactly where people would go with it.

And then proclaim 'Who, me? I didn't start nothing.'

If you read the thread you will see that only a couple of people had a problem and got defensive about the premise in the thread which is stated clearly in the thread title. Stating the truth means I started something? Please.

Not my problem when people derail a thread, which by the way, happens in just about every thread on here.

[phadedhawg]

I watched every play on recording, but it was hard. It was an ugly game.
Hate seeing Moses not getting more involved. He got 12 but it wasn't by design.
Thought the defensive intensity was way up and impressive, but offense looked ragged.

Yeah last night was dog ugly a few times.  Moses had a much better 2nd half.  He attacked a bit more.  Hopefully that's a sign of things to come. 

But I don't think we need Moses to have the numbers he had last year.  Barford can do a lot of the same things that pretty much only Moses could do last year.  I think we've got more offensive talent than last year so we won't need Moses to shoulder the burden of getting so many points. 

Right now I'm more concerned with Dusty Hannahs 3 pt shot than I am Moses. 

[FineAsSwine]

And yet adding nothing to the conversation. This point has been made in the past, of course folks like yourself just want to turn this into a CBB vs. CMA thread. That's not what the article says.

If you want to talk about substandard performance, I think that is actually what this article is talking about. Bowls legitimize substandard performance. Making the NCAAT is not like making a bowl. Period. But you, yourself have an agenda.

They can't refute the premise of the article because, if they read the article they would see that the writer made some very sound arguments and he isn't biased toward CMA or CBB so it is a very impartial rationale in that regard.

Being unable to refute anything in the article, they have engaged in ad hominem attacks. Classic Hogville tactic.

[phadedhawg]

I always think of this when I see people talk about agendas and the "real" reason people post something. 

[hobhog]

It apparently is true for the University of Arkansas.....

[HognitiveDissonance]

If you read the thread you will see that only a couple of people had a problem and got defensive about the premise in the thread which is stated clearly in the thread title. Stating the truth means I started something? Please.

Not my problem when people derail a thread, which by the way, happens in just about every thread on here.

The fact remains, certain posters can be identified with a CMA agenda 90% of the time. As you say, just stating the truth.
Don't be so disingenuous. There was a reason you started this thread.

And by the way, even though I always question your motives, I actually responded anyway.

[26.2Hog]

It apparently is true for the University of Arkansas.....

BAM!