Clean VS Dirty Program

[mrdacheek]

I spent most of my day today debating with a group of friends whether or not it would be better to have a dirty program or a clean one.

For example, would you rather win championships with a dirty program full of scandals, or attempt to run a clean program in hopes that it would lead to victory.

Maybe another question would be this: CBB is all about building our program's character, would you trade him for a certain CFP 'ship this year at the hands of a shady coach and program, with the problems we all know could follow? Or would you rather stick it out?

As you can imagine this debate (via group text) got super heated, complete with references to the NASA space program, Bobby P, Russia, Miami, statistics and just about every unimaginably unrelated piece of banter each side could possibly think of.

Interested to hear more thoughts...

[bphi11ips]

Are you kidding?  There's only one reason to lump athletics together with academics - they're both essential to the development of successful humans.  Do it right or don't do it at all. 

[Kyle]

Are we in a group text together? Your conversations sound very similar to mine with my friends.


Give me the clean program.

[NuttinItUp]

Why on earth would you ever want a dirty program?

[mrdacheek]

It started with a debate about QBs and spiraled out of control from there. My argument was that I would rather have a BA type, than some of our previous guys who arguably had more talent but weren't the best leaders because of attitude related issues. I'm purposefully being a bit vague, after all these are kids and I hesitate to criticize any of them, on any level.

But yes, the argument in favor of a 'dirty' program is that winning Championships is ALL that matters. Cheating is ok, unless you get caught and winning builds dynasties, not being 'good people'.

I'm 32 and can't remember us getting as much respect with any other team than we have with this one. Granted I also have selective hearing and memory. But even when we were ranked in the top 10, there seemed to be a collective 'bleh' from everyone else in the country. Like I said, selective memory so I could be remembering completely wrong.

[Buff]

Do we really need one more Auburn thread?

[TexHog188]

Clean

[HogWall Jackson]

Just Google the 15 Dirtiest NCAA Football Programs. From Memory SMU is #1, others in that 15 are: Miami, OU, Bama, Auburn, FL (I think), Texas A&M, Washington and a few more.

[KennyForAD]

Clean.   Winning dirty is pointless.  How could anyone at Auburn enjoy their 'championship' knowing they bought Cam Newton for $180,000?    How could ANYONE at Baylor enjoy or support their program today?   Gross.  No thank you.

What did Korliss get kicked off our team for, weed?   I'm proud of that.  Do you think anyone is proud of Art Briles?   LOL   Gross.

[pigbacon]

Even worse, you could be dirty and still suck. Ask our friends east of the river how that's working out. 

[Tusks]

Here's a problem.  When a clean program gets beat by a dirty program and the main reason they win is because they are dirty and paying players, the fanbase of the clean program HAS TO HAVE PERSPECTIVE.

I'm not saying a clean program can't win it all but it's only got a 10-20% chance where dirty programs are over 50%.

You can't have it both ways.  When the dirty programs get the best of a clean program there can't be a meltdown, there has to be a fanbase understanding that it goes with the territory.

One posters says, "why would you ever want a dirty program"  well for some its simple, its to win and consistently play for it all.  If you want a clean program you are NOT going to be in the final four of football every year.  So as long as the fanbase can handle it and have their meds ready then clean is better but I HATE and I mean HATE when the hogs lose to a dirty program and every hog player and coach is blamed versus understanding the deck a little stacked agains the hogs and understanding that losing to the dirtbags of CFB is GOING to happen.

[HawgLife4Eva]

Here's a problem.  When a clean program gets beat by a dirty program and the main reason they win is because they are dirty and paying players, the fanbase of the clean program HAS TO HAVE PERSPECTIVE.

I'm not saying a clean program can't win it all but it's only got a 10-20% chance where dirty programs are over 50%.

You can't have it both ways.  When the dirty programs get the best of a clean program there can't be a meltdown, there has to be a fanbase understanding that it goes with the territory.

One posters says, "why would you ever want a dirty program"  well for some its simple, its to win and consistently play for it all.  If you want a clean program you are NOT going to be in the final four of football every year.  So as long as the fanbase can handle it and have their meds ready then clean is better but I HATE and I mean HATE when the hogs lose to a dirty program and every hog player and coach is blamed versus understanding the deck a little stacked agains the hogs and understanding that losing to the dirtbags of CFB is GOING to happen.

However, this requires universal knowledge of who the dirty programs are and who they aren't.

If it was so easy to tell, the dirty programs would be punished.

....and I don't mean just unfounded message board speculation about who is dirty...I mean who is truly, provably dirty.

[jkstock04]

To me a better question is why would you want to be a part of the SEC...yet pound your chest about being a clean program? This seems in general what our fan base does in this regard.

A squeaky clean program in the SEC is always going to be fighting an uphill battle...and it's a battle that will never be won.

One thing I have learned about from our fan base since the Bobby Petrino fiasco...Arkansans as a whole really don't care that much about winning big...in comparison to other programs that is. What's most important is stuff like the national white hat perception, political correctness, and other mundane details ....the majority of our state eats that stuff up like crazy.

It's crystal clear to me that most Arkansans would much rather having a losing program that "does right" rather than winning program that employs shady tactics. This is so blatant it's really not even up for debate.

[passinghog]

Winning; if that means keeping up with the Joneses, so be it. As long as you're not blatantly dirty like Auburn.

[870hogfan]

To me a better question is why would you want to be a part of the SEC...yet pound your chest about being a clean program? This seems in general what our fan base does in this regard.

A squeaky clean program in the SEC is always going to be fighting an uphill battle...and it's a battle that will never be won.

One thing I have learned about from our fan base since the Bobby Petrino fiasco...Arkansans as a whole really don't care that much about winning big...in comparison to other programs that is. What's most important is stuff like the national white hat perception, political correctness, and other mundane details ....the majority of our state eats that stuff up like crazy.

It's crystal clear to me that most Arkansans would much rather having a losing program that "does right" rather than winning program that employs shady tactics. This is so blatant it's really not even up for debate.

Bielema will make Arkansas an winner and will run a clean program.

[Dirty]

Why on earth would you ever want a dirty program?

I don't want a dirty program but someone as do be dirty!

[Hawghiggs]

 It really depends. Arkansas Tech should run a dirty program. Mostly because I live in Russellville and their football has sucked a$$ for a long time.  On that note. Anybody know what happened to Altee Tenpenny?

[Hogarusa]

That sounds like a real fun group text to be a part of

[Hog N Bama]

Just Google the 15 Dirtiest NCAA Football Programs. From Memory SMU is #1, others in that 15 are: Miami, OU, Bama, Auburn, FL (I think), Texas A&M, Washington and a few more.

Ha. I did just that. Interesting read.

[jkstock04]

Bielema will make Arkansas and winner and will run a clean program.

But what is the definition of "winner?" Avg 8 wins a year?

[Choctaw Hog]

Are you kidding?  There's only one reason to lump athletics together with academics - they're both essential to the development of successful humans.  Do it right or don't do it at all. 

This.  No number of championships warrant cheating.  The win at all cost proponents obviously have their priorities misplaced.  One thing I will give that group credit for is that they are the first and the loudest to "thump their chests" over the success of others.  Apparently they have no successes of their own to relish. 

[nchogg]

Bielema will make Arkansas and winner and will run a clean program.

And Coach B has the desire to win big and will do it his way.

[870hogfan]

But what is the definition of "winner?" Avg 8 wins a year?

We shall see how many he averages. I know one thing you won't have to worry about the OL or DL. Arkansas will always have an elite run game and a solid defense. Some other coach did not care for either.

[HogWall Jackson]

Here is a Link with other Qualifying Links from this one:

http://athlonsports.com/college-football/15-unethical-college-football-programs

[hog.goblin]

Clean is my choice

And let's face it, a dirty Arkansas program would get hammered by the NCAA all day long: see Nolan's Jessie Pate nonscandal scandal and 2 track championships taken away for a car ride

[Inhogswetrust]

Are you kidding?  There's only one reason to lump athletics together with academics - they're both essential to the development of successful humans.  Do it right or don't do it at all. 

I would rather shut it down versus being thought of as a dirty program overall.

[MJ2]

Kind of have to answer this question with a question.   Are you happy with what the AR program has done so far?   We assume it's generally clean, so are you happy with our results in the years since we have been in the SEC?   If not, then maybe we need to add some dirt.

[NaturalStateReb]

To me a better question is why would you want to be a part of the SEC...yet pound your chest about being a clean program? This seems in general what our fan base does in this regard.

A squeaky clean program in the SEC is always going to be fighting an uphill battle...and it's a battle that will never be won.

One thing I have learned about from our fan base since the Bobby Petrino fiasco...Arkansans as a whole really don't care that much about winning big...in comparison to other programs that is. What's most important is stuff like the national white hat perception, political correctness, and other mundane details ....the majority of our state eats that stuff up like crazy.

It's crystal clear to me that most Arkansans would much rather having a losing program that "does right" rather than winning program that employs shady tactics. This is so blatant it's really not even up for debate.

This also presupposes that there are actually such things as completely clean programs.  I doubt that there are, really.  I think that some level of irregularity is going on everywhere.  Hundred-dollar handshakes are probably happening all across the country, and I'm sure that every program's "working the black of the plate" where NCAA rules leave areas of uncertainty.  I think there's a difference between that sort of "garden variety" stuff and running a payroll, the kind of major things that are undeniably dirty. 

I think virtually all programs, and certainly all major programs, experience the first type.  I think few programs experience the second type.  A conspiracy of that size takes too many people to keep quiet for too long.  I think low level violations are extremely common and happen virtually everywhere; I think major, systemic violations are actually pretty uncommon.

[TM Hog]

Well, I've asked myself this question many times.  Schools like Oklahoma and Alabama built their tradition on being dirty.  The cost/benefit analysis seems to be get your hands dirty a bit and win some championships and maybe get the occasional "probation" for a couple of years. (Which is a joke) Overall in the long term you are rewarded with a great tradition which feeds itself.  Winning tradition brings in the big time recruits.  Until the NCAA really steps in and starts really punishing schools (Example: SMU) nothing will really change.  It takes not being afraid to punish the "establishment" like Alabama, Auburn etc..
Of course it doesn't help that the NCAA has no real power to begin with.

[Inhogswetrust]

Kind of have to answer this question with a question.   Are you happy with what the AR program has done so far?   We assume it's generally clean, so are you happy with our results in the years since we have been in the SEC?   If not, then maybe we need to add some dirt.

No adding more dirt. Who's to say that a "generally" clean program can't win. Granted a NC is more difficult to obtain when clean. However it isn't impossible and despite what some believe it isn't the only reason to have a program. Besides NO program is 100% clean. None can completely control boosters, agents or rogue coaches all the time no matter how hard they try.

[hoglady]

This also presupposes that there are actually such things as completely clean programs.  I doubt that there are, really.  I think that some level of irregularity is going on everywhere.  Hundred-dollar handshakes are probably happening all across the country, and I'm sure that every program's "working the black of the plate" where NCAA rules leave areas of uncertainty.  I think there's a difference between that sort of "garden variety" stuff and running a payroll, the kind of major things that are undeniably dirty. 

I think virtually all programs, and certainly all major programs, experience the first type.  I think few programs experience the second type.  A conspiracy of that size takes too many people to keep quiet for too long.  I think low level violations are extremely common and happen virtually everywhere; I think major, systemic violations are actually pretty uncommon.

+1 - I agree.

[HVHog]

we've already experienced both.  I prefer a clean program with people of high character in charge steering the ship.

[GB-Razorback]

Patriots get caught cheating over and over.  See - Judge letting Brady off today.  If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin.

That being said, I like my College Football clean.

[jgphillips3]

If it was impossible to win championships clean, then I would vote dirty.  However, I would rather win one championship clean than five dirty.

[reddogjcss]

One program that is dirty and times they don't have to be and would still win but the dirty cheating is si ingrained they can't help but be dirty.
Hold game tape, fake injury, hold elevator, stop time clock.
Some good people in the program and they have been dirty so long they do dirty things when they don't really need to.
IM SO GLADE COACH B DOES THINGS THE RIGHT WAY. YES I THINK HE IS RIGHT TO CARE FOR THE PLAYERS FUTURE NOT JUST THE FOOTBALLS. GET EDUCATION FOR LIFE AFTER FOOTBALL AND INSTILL INTEGRITY IN THE YOUNG MEN. UNCOMMON! NEVER YEILD! WOOO PIG

[Torqued pork]

Clean is always preferred, but I have to admit I don't get as outraged at cheating as I used to get when I see the astronomical $$$ being spent on facilities and salaries these days.

[DeltaBoy]

Keep it Clean for me.

[Inhogswetrust]

One program that is dirty and times they don't have to be and would still win but the dirty cheating is si ingrained they can't help but be dirty.
Hold game tape, fake injury, hold elevator, stop time clock.
Some good people in the program and they have been dirty so long they do dirty things when they don't really need to.
IM SO GLADE COACH B DOES THINGS THE RIGHT WAY. YES I THINK HE IS RIGHT TO CARE FOR THE PLAYERS FUTURE NOT JUST THE FOOTBALLS. GET EDUCATION FOR LIFE AFTER FOOTBALL AND INSTILL INTEGRITY IN THE YOUNG MEN. UNCOMMON! NEVER YEILD! WOOO PIG

I bet I know which team you are speaking of..........................